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Quirkyeyes
07/06/2013, 07:58 AM
What really ****es me off about the saltwater hobby as much as I love it is the lack of care givin to the ecological effects of keeping saltwater fish we are really screwing up are oceans by taking all of these fish out but people just treat them like replace able objects like filter cartridges fish are not going to last forever and if we keep taking them out of the ocean there won't b a hobby left for us to enjoy I think we should make stricter collecting limits so we can continue are hobby while more fish can still stay in our forever important ocean to sustain it with the life it needs to flourish for years to come

:blown:

Quirkyeyes
07/06/2013, 08:18 AM
In some ways hobbyists have saved many parts of ocean life that are being destroyed captive breeding bangai cArdinals and other endangered fish that other wise would go extinct in our oceans or the corals we captive grow that may save damaged reefs and of corse all of the CBB inverts but what I see as the real threat is the fish we can breed yet like the super huge wrasse parot tang and angel fishes that could b in real danger if we over collect them many fish lives have been lost just by shipping deaths and I feel that these innocent animals chances of survival for the time being would be better for the most part out in the ocean . While the extra price may seem unsatisfactory because not as many fish will b collected and sold so higher prices will be needed it will ensure those purchasing the fish are really responsible enough to care for them as the normal person wouldn't pay so much for a fish

Quirkyeyes
07/06/2013, 08:19 AM
It is going to a hard truth to face for many but a truth that must b faced if we want it to get better

billsreef
07/06/2013, 09:13 AM
While sensible collecting limits can be quite worthwhile, they need to be just that, sensible and based on sound fisheries science.

Breadman03
07/06/2013, 09:39 AM
While sensible collecting limits can be quite worthwhile, they need to be just that, sensible and based on sound fisheries science.

Sound fisheries science is the key. Bill, you probably know, but I believe that the orange roughy is the species of fish that became popular within the last few decades and almost got wiped out because we didn't know that they don't reproduce until they are near 100 years old.

Quirky eyes, please break your posts into sentences. You have some excellent thoughts, but many will dismiss them simply due to poor punctuation.

ca1ore
07/06/2013, 10:11 AM
I have always found myself with one foot on each side of this debate. It is easy to get carried away with blaming the reef hobby for damaging wild stocks, but forgetting about the far greater damage done by cruise ship anchors and pollution - not to mention the massive damage done by tropical storms. At the same time, the survival rate of most fish removed from the ocean is dismal. I have always been in favor of banning animals that simply do not survive in captivity, things like non-photosynthetic corals, for example. OK, there will always be somebody, somewhere who claims to be sucessfully keeping these things, but the numbers still stink.

However, lets not lose sight of the success reef hobbyists have had at culturing coral frags. Not clue as to the stats, but I'd bet that the majority of the SPS corals we buy are aquacultured. I've been in the reef hobby since 1988, and for most of my time SPS were considered impossible to keep in a reef tank.

Timfish
07/06/2013, 01:27 PM
Harvesting from the reefs is renewable and sustainable with proper controls. There are hree things I can think of that seem to be left out in criticisms the aquarium trade is destroying reefs. The first is in many of the third world island countries the aquarium trade offers not only an economic incentive to manage their reefs wisely but also a means for locals who's only natural resource is the reef to lift themselves out of poverty. These numbers are old but in the Maldives in 2000 a kilogram of fish for food had a value of $6 while a kilogram of fish for the aquarium trade had a value of $500 and a ton of limestone collected for construction material had a value of $40 - $0 per ton but the same material sold as live rock had a value of $4000 to $8000. (1)

A second issue is criticisms I have seen never address the problems caused by the removal of the apex predators. A hallmark of a healthy reef ecosystem is large populations of both sharks and groupers which among other things help control the populations of herbivores (tangs) just like wolves and mountain lions control deer and elk populations and then indirectly the species distribution of trees in forests. What problems are going to arise if we ban the collection of tangs on a reef but do not restore the apex predators? Here is Texas we harvest more deer each year now than what the entire state wide population was in 1900 because we've eliminated the biological controls for them. Large ranches are told each year they need to kill a certain number to prevent overpopulation. (I can't help but wonder how much harder it would have been for lionfish to have gotten established if grouper populations were intact with their full distribution of juvenile, subadult and adult specimens.)

Another item I see overlooked is the impact of swimmers and snorkelers on reefs. (While there are divers that damage reefs all I've met are very sensitive to a reefs fragility and are much better educated than the some of the casual swimmers or snorkelers I've meet and I laud the resorts that are requireing snorkelers to use flotation devices so they do not touch the reefs). Beside the issue with physically damaging the reefs sunscreen itself is causing problems when the UV filters interfere with a corals zooxanthellae.(2) How many of the proponents for stopping harvesting on the reefs are also calling for a ban on sunscreen?!

(1) http://www.unep.org/PDF/From_Ocean_To_Aquarium_report.pdf

(2) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2291018/

Quirkyeyes
07/06/2013, 02:49 PM
Sure pollution has devestating effects on the reefs but collecting on top of that only worsens the situation in truth

Quirkyeyes
07/06/2013, 02:54 PM
I'm not saying that this cant be done right if we help certain island country's realize better collecting strategys and how to let certain areas go I disturbed for breeding grounds others for collecting grounds and other for farming grounds then this could be done right

Quirkyeyes
07/06/2013, 03:01 PM
I agree we should restore Apex predators for the reef Ecosystem we can thank the Asian food markets for there depletion but maybe we should make preds harder to get our hands on ether way the natural chain of things was messed up by humans and never would have gotten that way if we let nature stay as it was intended but we didn't and we have to live with that reality and I am only talking about the tangs in trouble like shoal and other huge ones or yellows who only in certain spots have had there populations damaged like Hawaii

Quirkyeyes
07/06/2013, 03:02 PM
Sorry if my grammar is bad I'm posting all of these from my phone

Quirkyeyes
07/06/2013, 03:05 PM
Dude in Delaware there are no apex predators at all imagine how many deer geese And other critters we have

Quirkyeyes
07/06/2013, 03:06 PM
I think if tourist were informed what effects the sun screen has and that it is killing essentlly the sight the are trying to see that it could mostly be stopped

Quirkyeyes
07/06/2013, 03:10 PM
We must detirmine our values from our interests


value. sure I want to save the reef so generations to come may enjoy my hobby as well as see an overall healthier ocean and world as a result

Interest if I import these fish I can make lots of money selling them it won't hurt to sell just a couple

Timfish
07/06/2013, 11:31 PM
Dude in Delaware there are no apex predators at all imagine how many deer geese And other critters we have

This is straying off topic but actually I said biological controls not just apex preditors when refering to deer in Texas. One of the more important biological controls that can be reintroduced for deer and other mammals is the screw worm fly(1). Delightful little beastie that liked laying eggs on the umbilicus of newborn animals so the maggots would eat it alive, likes people too. In Texas there were years when none of the fawns survived. To get back on topic in ecosystems that have been studied when the apex preditors are removed the ecosystem suffers from an overabundance of herbivores. Why do you think there are fewer Yellow Tangs in Hawaii now than there were 20 or 30 years ago? What I read last year on this debate in Hawaii clearly showed the claims that the Yellow Tang populations in Hawaii were over collected didn't have any research to support it. If you know of research showing this please post your references.

Why do you claim the asian markets are to blame for the depletion of sharks? There have been dramatic stories on shark fin soup but the american consumer is certainly eating their share of shark. As I understand it another major cause of shark death is as "bycatch" in nets which is usually discarded.

Maybe it's just your disjointed posting but you seem to me to be totally unaware that many of these island countries started a long time ago doing what you are claiming we need to help them start doing. Tonga for example in 2004 or 2005 closed all collections for a while and reopened when it was shown to be sustainable without harming the reefs. From a 2002 report on sustainable developemnt in Fiji "Government's commitment to sustainable economic growth means that growth must not be allowed to lead to the long term degradation of the environment." and "Marine resources need to be managed "in a way that maximizes resource owner and community benefit whilst ensuring bio-diversity and conservation issues are taken fully into account" (2) And in 2005 Fiji chiefs were creating marine sanctuaries that included "permanent taboo zones" (3)

(1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochliomyia_hominivorax
(2) http://www.crc.uri.edu/download/Fiji_National_Paper.pdf
(3) http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/nov2005/2005-11-04-07.asp

Timfish
07/07/2013, 08:56 AM
Here's two links. One shows the increase of Yellow Tang Populations in the The West Hawai`i Regional Fisheries Management Area. The second shows all the different regulated areas on all the Hawai'i islands:

http://hawaiibanfactcheck.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/YT-Abundnace-Change2.jpg
http://hawaii.gov/dlnr/dar/regulated_areas.html

Quirkyeyes
07/07/2013, 11:49 AM
I'm not saying that some places haven't changed for the better I'm saying more need to

Quirkyeyes
07/07/2013, 11:52 AM
How is collecting as many fish as you want sustainble that's why I'm for collection limit control bills

Quirkyeyes
07/07/2013, 11:53 AM
How much econmonic growth are these island people gonna have when all the fish are gone?

Quirkyeyes
07/07/2013, 11:54 AM
Never use Wikipedia as a source ether

Timfish
07/07/2013, 12:28 PM
If you don't believe the description of screw worm flies on wikipedia here's one from the Indiana Animal Disease Diagnostic Laboratory at Perdue University: https://www.addl.purdue.edu/newsletters/2000/fall/screwworm.shtml

Quirkyeyes
07/07/2013, 02:00 PM
Ok I'm just saying that Wikipedia isn't always right

Quirkyeyes
07/07/2013, 02:02 PM
And the yellow tang chart is complete crap

Quirkyeyes
07/07/2013, 02:04 PM
What's the point of the Hawaii districts map

James77
07/07/2013, 03:21 PM
Post padding anyone?

Timfish
07/07/2013, 05:22 PM
And the yellow tang chart is complete crap

Can you please be more specific!? Which chart in which reference do you believe is "complete crap" and WHY do you believe so? Please include your references supporting your reasoning. The charts in the references listed are based on data collected by governmental agencies and/or research done by institutions for governmental agencies such as NOAA. It's quite a claim to say they are incorrect without providing supporting evidence. (I must say I'm rather enjoying our exchange :-D .)

Quirkyeyes
07/07/2013, 11:01 PM
What evidence does the yellow tang chart have that it's from a legible source

Quirkyeyes
07/07/2013, 11:03 PM
I'm just saying that stricter regulations need to be put in place to protect our in inviorment and our hobby even it there not at risk now it prevents them from becoming at risk that's all

billsreef
07/08/2013, 05:40 AM
How is collecting as many fish as you want sustainble that's why I'm for collection limit control bills

Just in case you haven't noticed, no one is arguing for uncontolled will nilly take all you can collection, but rather for regulations that are based on science instead of emotion.

KafudaFish
07/08/2013, 06:39 AM
There are monthly reptile shows nation wide so why can't they have monthly fish shows nation wide

Yes I am referring to live expos And they could just have tiny little tanks setup the day before and bring there fish in the day before

So which side of the fence are you on?

Timfish
07/08/2013, 10:14 AM
What evidence does the yellow tang chart have that it's from a legible source

There are multiple charts on yellow tangs in the various refferences I listed. Which one do you believe is "complete crap"? Preemptively I'll point out the link to the Hawai'i Department of Land and Natural Resources (DLNR) Division of Aquatic Resources (DAR) report lists the project researchers for the report as Dr. Tissot, Washington State University, Dr. Walsh, DLNR/DAR, Dr. Hallacher, University of Hawai'i - Hilo, Dr. Williams, Natioanl Marine Fisheries Service, Dr. Hixon, Oregon State University and Dr. Fox, Wourld Wildlife Fund (page 8).

This is a fascinating report as it goes into the history of the issue. Looks at past attempts to deal with the conflicting objectives of various parties. Provides an excellent example of private citizens, businesses with conflicting agendas and government agencies working together. It looks at the multipule pressures on the fish populations including the problems with recruitment in determining population changes and fishing. (Whoda thought Achilles Tangs are an important food fish :-/ ) Looking at the recommendations I do expect the price of Hawai'ian tangs to go up but not in the immediate future. I also do not see any basis for the banning the collection of tangs when solid research shows the population is increasing while the number collected is increasing also.

(Here's the link again for you - http://hawaii.gov/dlnr/dar/pubs/ar_hrs188F5v2.pdf )

gone fishin
07/08/2013, 10:24 AM
No worries, reefs were here long before man started walking upright and will be here in some form after we are gone.

Quirkyeyes
07/08/2013, 11:50 AM
I never said there had to be saltwater fish at the expos

KafudaFish
07/08/2013, 11:53 AM
I never said there had to be saltwater fish at the expos

So it is acceptable if they are freshwater fish but not saltwater?

Got it.

:thumbsup:

Quirkyeyes
07/08/2013, 11:55 AM
I love saltwater fish I'm jus saying alot of fish just die through shipment or bad care an not many SW fish are CBB so that's a problem for the Bobby's future I just think there should b stricter collecting limits and seasons and even moratoriums on some fish like Hawaiian yellow tangs or flame angels for a year or 2 so they can respawn for future years harvest yellow tang populations have gone down By 40 - 70% around the Hawaiian islands recently and I feel like they need some protection that's y I will never by a yellow tang even though I'm a huge tang fan

Quirkyeyes
07/08/2013, 11:57 AM
Well corals and maybe some not at risk SW fish like dAmsels dottybacks and basslets oh and inverts and plants 2 they could just call it like an aquarium show aquatic themed things for sale

Dapg8gt
07/08/2013, 12:46 PM
Post padding anyone?

That's exactly what I was thinking.. There's probably a lot of other threads all over rc and the Internet related to the same topic.. FYI there is an edit button to add onto previous posts:p

I agree there needs to be limits but I think the hobby has little to do with it FWIW.. Warming of the oceans and overfishing for food is IMO more important to focus on than bashing something you yourself are supporting..

Quirkyeyes
07/08/2013, 01:02 PM
What's that telling you if I'm bashing something I love . It means I really care about its long term successes and I'm only supporting my hobby in ways that won't hurt them oceans only help them except for my tangs

Quirkyeyes
07/08/2013, 01:02 PM
I have know Idea what all those abrriveations mean ether

Quirkyeyes
07/08/2013, 01:07 PM
I have all fish that are frequently captive bred or are captive bred or animals with an over abundance in the wild. I have damsels an algae blenny a falco hawk zoo corals and a couple of tangs yellow mimic and sf tangs

madarin, chalk bass , royal gramma, pearly jaw , flame hawk shrimps and more. Coral possibly coming soon

Timfish
07/08/2013, 05:19 PM
I love saltwater fish I'm jus saying alot of fish just die through shipment or bad care an not many SW fish are CBB so that's a problem for the Bobby's future I just think there should b stricter collecting limits and seasons and even moratoriums on some fish like Hawaiian yellow tangs or flame angels for a year or 2 so they can respawn for future years harvest yellow tang populations have gone down By 40 - 70% around the Hawaiian islands recently and I feel like they need some protection that's y I will never by a yellow tang even though I'm a huge tang fan

What is the source for your information showing Yellow Tang populations are 40% - 70% less!? Can you site a study done by a group of researchers? When I looked into this claim by Snorkel Bob and others last year I could not find any research supporting it but there is research showing Yellow Tang populations are increasing concurrently with increasing collection.

Quirkyeyes
07/08/2013, 07:39 PM
I apologize I have done more reasearch and seen that in some parts of Hawaii yellow tang populations are going up but I swear to god I have seen legible articles that in other parts of Hawaii there have been drastic population declines I deleted it off my phone I don't know what article it is its on my dads phone though so next time I see him Ill get the site for you and there are other fish out there in trouble what about flame angels and other popular fish and the "BIG" fish and populations of fish in trouble in other parts of the world

Quirkyeyes
07/08/2013, 07:42 PM
If there are so many yellow tangs why don't they collect a bunch and make a saltwater fish farm there and start captive farming them so there populations will never get in trouble from over collection if sharks and groupers are returned to fix the Hawaii oceans

Alexraptor
07/08/2013, 07:46 PM
Anyone else find it curious guy seems to have signed up just for the sake of making a couple of provocative threads?

Quirkyeyes
07/08/2013, 07:55 PM
What else is there to sighn up for? Haha lol

pmcarbrey
07/08/2013, 08:16 PM
If there are so many yellow tangs why don't they collect a bunch and make a saltwater fish farm there and start captive farming them so there populations will never get in trouble from over collection if sharks and groupers are returned to fix the Hawaii oceans

You cant just throw fish in a big tank and expect them to breed... captive breeding of marine fish is by no means a simple task. If memory serves yellow tangs have a very difficult larval stage and to date no successful captive breeding attempts have been recorded and verified

Quirkyeyes
07/08/2013, 08:33 PM
I don't mean a big tank I mean a saltwater pond basiclly or a big netted off section of the ocean shoreline

And you could probably feed the larval fish little brine shrimp or something?

pmcarbrey
07/08/2013, 08:39 PM
I don't mean a big tank I mean a saltwater pond basiclly or a big netted off section of the ocean shoreline

And you could probably feed the larval fish little brine shrimp or something?

I was being facetious when I called it a big tank, even a 100,000g pool cannot and will not mimic the natural conditions of the ocean, think of public aquariums, the massive tanks they have, and the total lack of tang breeding in even the best biotope tanks.

Breeding is a complicated undertaking, you need to understand that NOTHING is simple!

Also: Brine shrimp are HUGE compared to what the larvae need. I believe rotifers are even too large.

Quirkyeyes
07/08/2013, 09:10 PM
What do they eat

Quirkyeyes
07/08/2013, 09:11 PM
And that's y I said section off part of the ocean

leveldrummer
07/08/2013, 09:11 PM
Never use Wikipedia as a source ether

Wikipedia is actually a fantastic source, don't listen to your teachers. It's as accurate as the encyclopedia britannica.

Quirkyeyes
07/08/2013, 09:19 PM
I know but anyone can post and sometimes inaccurate info is written

pmcarbrey
07/08/2013, 09:24 PM
Not to be offensive, but I think you need to do a LOT more research. a lot of your information and assumptions are incorrect. If we knew exactly what the larval stage ate we wouldnt have an issue raising them would we now? lol

Quirkyeyes
07/08/2013, 10:03 PM
I know there just ideas at least the farm raising thing

Dapg8gt
07/08/2013, 10:03 PM
Anyone else find it curious guy seems to have signed up just for the sake of making a couple of provocative threads?

I do ;)..

Unsubscribing from both lol

Quirkyeyes
07/08/2013, 10:04 PM
Well we would have a problem because the wont even breed in the first place without the right conditions

Quirkyeyes
07/08/2013, 10:06 PM
First of all there just my thoughts of how to make the hobby better and second of all I've been on this website for 2 days how many forums do u expect me to make

Quirkyeyes
07/08/2013, 10:08 PM
Take the reptile industry lots not all of there popular animals are cb it's more convinent and also helps wild populations rebuild without having to constantly flucate due to human disturbances same should go for fish

pmcarbrey
07/08/2013, 10:12 PM
Have you done any research into fish farms? or commercial breeding at all? These ideas have been thought up before and are actually used on a large scale for corals, the problem is that it isnt anywhere near as simple when you talk fish. look into each species and the breeding requirements for it, a ten second google search will pull up all the information you could EVER want on breeding, so do your research before you post!

Quirkyeyes
07/08/2013, 10:17 PM
No I have watched vedios on it and coral farming before I realize most of things that are going on I realize its hard but I don't see how it wouldn't work for At least some of the fish and yes I know clown fish and dottybacks cardinals are already CBB but I'm talking about at least some of the fish that have been CBB before like flame angels and other dwarf angels should be implemented into this system for commercial sized breeding amonts

Quirkyeyes
07/08/2013, 10:19 PM
Sure these techniques are difficult and forighn but we don't know till we honestly try and we have to keep advanceing with are hobby

pmcarbrey
07/08/2013, 10:21 PM
Sure these techniques are difficult and forighn but we don't know till we honestly try and we have to keep advanceing with are hobby

people ARE trying, once again, google search!

first few links off google:
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=2753
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/the-exciting-breeding-work-of-rising-tide-conservation
http://************.com/2011/04/05/captive-bred-yellow-tangs/ (http://************.com/2011/04/05/captive-bred-yellow-tangs/)

*** =reef builders

Quirkyeyes
07/08/2013, 10:25 PM
Tangs aside I think that unless a species is overpopulated we should set regulations up for it ahead of time before a problem starts people arnt ever gonna stop wanting fish and we need to make sure there at least around for some people to enjoy if the reef is in enough trouble already then why should we let there be extra pressure mounted to destroy our own hobby if stricter collection limits are set there will be less fish per year for the hobby so they'll cost more but that will deter new unresponsible fish hobbyist anyway and the next time around there is to collect fish there will be more to collect its a real win win protecting the invorment the hobby and the fish. :)

Quirkyeyes
07/08/2013, 10:26 PM
I have done a lot of reasearch into this but I will continue to do more

Quirkyeyes
07/08/2013, 10:30 PM
Well if those techniques are working then y dont more people use them your just proving my point in ur links

billsreef
07/09/2013, 05:20 AM
I have all fish that are frequently captive bred or are captive bred or animals with an over abundance in the wild. I have damsels an algae blenny a falco hawk zoo corals and a couple of tangs yellow mimic and sf tangs

madarin, chalk bass , royal gramma, pearly jaw , flame hawk shrimps and more. Coral possibly coming soon

Just how do you know those fish/inverts you have and and want to have are over abundant in the wild?

Take the reptile industry lots not all of there popular animals are cb it's more convinent and also helps wild populations rebuild without having to constantly flucate due to human disturbances same should go for fish

Reptiles are relatively easy to breed. The easiest marine finfish to breed and rear are rather complicated by comparison. Some fish have not been bred or reared, despite some very dedicated efforts by very experienced marine finfish breeders. Some have been bred in limited quantities, but not with the sort of duplicatable success that is necessary to breed them on a commercial scale.

Tangs aside I think that unless a species is overpopulated we should set regulations up for it ahead of time before a problem starts people arnt ever gonna stop wanting fish and we need to make sure there at least around for some people to enjoy if the reef is in enough trouble already then why should we let there be extra pressure mounted to destroy our own hobby if stricter collection limits are set there will be less fish per year for the hobby so they'll cost more but that will deter new unresponsible fish hobbyist anyway and the next time around there is to collect fish there will be more to collect its a real win win protecting the invorment the hobby and the fish. :)

Overpopulation of wild species is not common, and usually an ecological problem of it's own when it does occur.

I have done a lot of reasearch into this but I will continue to do more

I'd suggest using google scholar and looking for research articles in journals such as Nature, the Biological Bulletin, Fisheries, etc.

Quirkyeyes
07/09/2013, 07:02 AM
I have bred my own fish yellow labs fish are a differnt animal look at fresh water fish who are all CBB

Quirkyeyes
07/09/2013, 07:06 AM
Guess people on this forum arnt about free speech or hearing the truth

leveldrummer
07/09/2013, 07:16 AM
Guess people on this forum arnt about free speech or hearing the truth

as many have pointed out, your not talking the truth. and speaking out on a private forum isnt covered under free speach.

Do you even have a salt water tank? your other thread was talking about your attempts to transfer cichlids into a salt enviorment to keep with your reef.

Also, please turn our spellcheck and autocomplete back on, most of your posts could really use the help these two things provide.

billsreef
07/09/2013, 09:16 AM
I have bred my own fish yellow labs fish are a differnt animal look at fresh water fish who are all CBB

Breeding easy to breed FW fish is vastly different and far less complicated than breeding easy to breed SW fish. Being able to breed yellow labidochromis doesn't bring one even close to knowing what is involved with breeding and rearing marine finfish.

Guess people on this forum arnt about free speech or hearing the truth

It's not about free speech or hearing the truth, it's about knowledge vs. ignorance. Your young, and obviously have a lot to learn.

power boat jim
07/09/2013, 09:52 AM
Breeding easy to breed FW fish is vastly different and far less complicated than breeding easy to breed SW fish. Being able to breed yellow labidochromis doesn't bring one even close to knowing what is involved with breeding and rearing marine finfish.



It's not about free speech or hearing the truth, it's about knowledge vs. ignorance. Your young, and obviously have a lot to learn.

You also are doing you credibility no good by typing runon sentences without any punctuation. It makes them very diffcult to follow. You must also know the audience you are talking to. This board is home to many people who have made/make a living studying the ocean and its inhabitants. Expect what you post to be looked at with a little more scrutiny then if posting this stuff on facebook.

jimmyj7090
07/09/2013, 09:57 AM
No I have watched vedios on it and coral farming before I realize most of things that are going on I realize its hard but I don't see how it wouldn't work for At least some of the fish and yes I know clown fish and dottybacks cardinals are already CBB but I'm talking about at least some of the fish that have been CBB before like flame angels and other dwarf angels should be implemented into this system for commercial sized breeding amonts

Youtube does not = research.

Quirkyeyes
07/09/2013, 10:01 AM
I think you guys are making assumptions and need to do ALOT more reasearch every fish store owner I have asked has told me I was right so that makes you look bad ooops.

:0 :0 :-

power boat jim
07/09/2013, 10:04 AM
I think you guys are making assumptions and need to do ALOT more reasearch every fish store owner I have asked has told me I was right so that makes you look bad ooops.

:0 :0 :-

I think its time mommy takes your phone away and you go to your room.

Quirkyeyes
07/09/2013, 10:04 AM
I'm loving every second of this hobby :1 smirk

Quirkyeyes
07/09/2013, 10:05 AM
My mom has better things to do than hang out with me plus I would like to he sent to my room that's were all my fish are haha

RFLKPTR
07/09/2013, 10:12 AM
I think its time mommy takes your phone away and you go to your room.

^ This.

I have, however, learned more about regulated areas in Hawai'i, screwworms and Tang populations.

Quirky, when you get older, you'll realize that the brunt (in most cases) of bad information in this hobby is widely accepted as truth in local fish stores. This goes the same for the information on the internet.

Quirkyeyes
07/09/2013, 10:12 AM
I was walking by a river today near my house and I SWEAR I saw group of yellow tangs swimming around I went to take a picture but they swam away

Allmost
07/09/2013, 10:14 AM
river tangs are shy in general ...

Quirkyeyes
07/09/2013, 10:18 AM
My parents actually aren't around and don't care I'm telling the truth to all of you

Quirkyeyes
07/09/2013, 10:19 AM
Oh ya the Internet is always true right I shouldn't believe my boss who has lived and snorkeld in Hawaii and other info pacific islands and has had 45+ years doing this

billsreef
07/09/2013, 10:19 AM
I think you guys are making assumptions and need to do ALOT more reasearch every fish store owner I have asked has told me I was right so that makes you look bad ooops.

:0 :0 :-

I think as professional marine biologist with well over 20 years working both in the ornamental fish trade and university research labs; that it just might be likely that I'm speaking from the standpoint of both education and experience, not assumptions. You also might want to find some better fish stores, there is no reason to be having the sort of losses you claim.

leveldrummer
07/09/2013, 11:11 AM
My parents actually aren't around and don't care I'm telling the truth to all of you

I absolutely believe this, and I know the exact reason. :sad1:

leveldrummer
07/09/2013, 11:12 AM
Oh ya the Internet is always true right I shouldn't believe my boss who has lived and snorkeld in Hawaii and other info pacific islands and has had 45+ years doing this

Snorkeling doesnt make you good or correct about anything. Sorry.

slief
07/09/2013, 11:19 AM
Now I think I've seen or at least read it all!! Shouldn't this thread be in the "Irresponsible Reefkeeping" section??

This thread is pretty comical! On one hand the OP is against reef keeping because of the casualty rate yet on the other hand, the OP is doing science experiments on his livestock that could only end in his fishes death. Kind of hypocritical if you ask me.

This thread should be "sticky'd" so that everybody can learn what not to do when it comes to your fish!

Reeferz412
07/09/2013, 11:36 AM
I vote we move it to the lounge. The lionfish need company

Dapg8gt
07/09/2013, 11:37 AM
I can't see why the mods haven't realized this guy's a troll..

He's wasting everybody's time and RC's server space with nonsense. I unsubscribed from both of his uneducated threads but every time I go to new posts these are up.. It's like a train wreck you don't want to look but you do..

There is even people defending his thoughts on the petco thread. He/she is wasting everyone's time and is making a joke out of all of this. I hope everyone else notices this and stops playing into his little game. He's just trying to get up his post count fast padding posts with run on sentences and bad Grammer probably to access the selling/buying forum.. I for one hope they take away his posts and he/she realizes that this is a serious resource and abusing it will have consequences.

Plantbrain
07/09/2013, 11:38 AM
Dude in Delaware there are no apex predators at all imagine how many deer geese And other critters we have

Humans qualify as a predator. The comments made have been extremely weak, not supported and easily refuted. See above about a dozen times now. This does little to convince anyone.

I've seen and know Billsreef's posting and his background for a few years now I suppose. He's quite professional and has a lot of experience in the water.
Attack the topic issue and support your claims. Never the person. Use critical thinking to support your argument. Peeing contest always get pee blown back on those competing.

Management is key, you are not going to stop the harvest, but you can mange it so that we end up with sustainability. Same for food crops/agriculture/wildlife management in general, you are NOT the only person who is a stake holder in the resources.

Certified program for sustainable methods, similar to organic USDA(well, hopefully better than that method) food, should and is implemented in some cases, all captive farmed coral and fish would qualify.

Seems arguing strongly in favor or only local frag swaps/local hobbyists to hobbyist buys, trades etc, and vendors selling captive stuff would be the best way to support your cause. Attacking poor management by the industry would be another step. Then help to correct it.

I do this personally.

Start with a good plan and an overall philosophy. You'll succeed more and waste less of your time on useless venting on line. Which of those 2 choices was your original goal after all? Venting or changing views and getting your message out? As it stands, the messages is entirely lost and who wants to read a personal flame war?

Plantbrain
07/09/2013, 11:42 AM
I can't see why the mods haven't realized this guy's a troll..

He's wasting everybody's time and RC's server space with nonsense. I unsubscribed from both of his uneducated threads but every time I go to new posts these are up.. It's like a train wreck you don't want to look but you do..

There is even people defending his thoughts on the petco thread. He/she is wasting everyone's time and is making a joke out of all of this. I hope everyone else notices this and stops playing into his little game. He's just trying to get up his post count fast padding posts with run on sentences and bad Grammer probably to access the selling/buying forum.. I for one hope they take away his posts and he/she realizes that this is a serious resource and abusing it will have consequences.

Perhaps, but the poster also has passion and cares about the reefs/environment. Direction and some thought can help. Maybe not today, but perhaps later.

Alexraptor
07/09/2013, 01:21 PM
Perhaps, but the poster also has passion and cares about the reefs/environment. Direction and some thought can help. Maybe not today, but perhaps later.

You might want to examine his posting history.

dc
07/09/2013, 01:44 PM
You guys realize you can put a user on ignore don't you? ;)

Plantbrain
07/09/2013, 01:51 PM
You might want to examine his posting history.

I typically do not, but based it on the few post I did read. I viewed the rest, yep, troll. Mods should ban him.

Dapg8gt
07/09/2013, 02:08 PM
Thanks you lol I feel the same way..

TY31088
07/09/2013, 02:18 PM
I can't see why the mods haven't realized this guy's a troll..

He's wasting everybody's time and RC's server space with nonsense. I unsubscribed from both of his uneducated threads but every time I go to new posts these are up.. It's like a train wreck you don't want to look but you do..

There is even people defending his thoughts on the petco thread. He/she is wasting everyone's time and is making a joke out of all of this. I hope everyone else notices this and stops playing into his little game. He's just trying to get up his post count fast padding posts with run on sentences and bad Grammer probably to access the selling/buying forum.. I for one hope they take away his posts and he/she realizes that this is a serious resource and abusing it will have consequences.

Yep. But people keep feeding him. He doesn't seem to have a clue about sentences and seperating them with punctuation.

jerpa
07/09/2013, 02:41 PM
Remember, they are a kid. Belittling is a bit much IMO. I think we could all agree that we believed in and expressed certain views in ways that we are no longer proud of at that age.

Deinonych
07/09/2013, 03:06 PM
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/129593/2576136-obvious_troll_wedding.jpg

billsreef
07/09/2013, 03:13 PM
He crossed that line of the User Agreement (http://www.reefcentral.com/index.php/user-agreement) and was banned by Brian earlier ;) So I'm going to go ahead and close this thread so that we aren't :deadhorse:

BTW, it's good to see you posting Plantbrain :wavehand: