Am I Sentenced To A Life Without Parole With These Flatworms?

[smiller]

I know most of the answers to most of the questions on this subject, but I guess I'll go with it anyway. I have the bad flatworms, the matting multiply daily by the tons kind. I have religously siphoned them two to three times weekly for a few months now. I thought I was keeping them under control and now I think I'm started to lose the battle. They have always been confined to the lower part of the rock and the sand. But now the're getting control of the whole tank.

I'm becoming very frustrated as otherwise my tank looks great. And I do not get frustrated easily. I have had it running for over a year with only one coral and one fish loss. I have over 50 corals and three clams.

I don't know what else to do but just keep on am I have been. But I can't fathom the thought of this going on forever. I am to the point of consdering doing something more desperate like Oomed and take my losses.

I know people that have used it advise not to but this is getting out of hand. Is there anything that I am overlooking? Thanks.

[Adam]

smiller,

There is a flatworm eating nudibranch. They have recently been making their way into the hobby. My understanding is that they have look alikes, so get them someplace reputable. Arrow crabs and some wrasses are rumored to eat them, but both can be destructive and eat desireable critters (especially bristle worms in the case of the arrow crabs).

There are also additives that will kill them, but big die offs of flatworms have been know to harm other inhabitants.

HTH and good luck.

Adam

[rshimek]

Hi,

As Dante noticed, the saying over the entrance to Hell was, "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here."

You could take that to heart.

Or.... Maybe....

Try getting a few of the cephalaspidean slugs (most folks call them nudibranchs, but they aren't nudi's)that are supposed to eat them. Inland Aquatics may have some, some other vendors may have some.

Other than this, I think Oomed might be your only way out.

Good luck! :D

[Vpham97]

There are people who OOmed, but the FW come back. If you Oomed w/ that much FW in your tank. The dead FW would cause a crash. Ask Agu about this.

I don't know how far from Houston do you live. Damsel in some store are $1.99 there. Put 10 - 20 damsel in your tank. Rarely feed the Damsel. Depend on how aggressive the Damsel you pick, the FW will be gone in 2-3 week. You can go w/ 1 or 2 damsel if you are patient. But to make sure just put 10 - 20 damsel in your tank.

[smiller]

I talked to Inland. They said they have them in stock finally. He said they are hard to get. He said they put two in a 55 gallon and they made a difference in just a day. I ordered two. We will see. Thanks all.


Dr. Ron:

Did Dante see any signs that said "I'll believe it when I see it?"

[rshimek]

Do let us know how the slugs do, please.

:D

[Flame*Angel]

I'm a beginner still (read forever) setting up my first tank. I've seen quite a few messages about flat worms and it sounds like the worst pestilence. I just have to ask - how does a tank get the plague of the flat worms in the first place?

[rshimek]

Hi,

Generally one or a small number (they can reproduce by splitting in two) enters hidden in a crevice of live rock or coral. By the time the aquarist knows they are there, there may be literally thousands of them.

They may not be able to thrive or take over in all tanks, definitely some folks that should have them (those who have traded corals with folks who do, for example) don't, but why they don't is not clear.

We don't know the complete story with them yet. They do seem to be, at best, unpleasant.

:D

[Vpham97]

I just have to ask - how does a tank get the plague of the flat worms in the first place?

You can get it from trading coral. Also, most coral from the store I know of came from Indonesia. FW sometime are present in those coral from Indonesia. At least that's what it's said in The Reef Aquarium volume one.

[rshimek]

Hi,

The worms are present throughout the Indo-Pacific, not just Indonesia, and I suspect by now in many distributor/dealer tanks.

Getting them is rather like playing the lottery, but the odds are better.... :D

[Flame*Angel]

It certainly sounds like one would be better off preventing flatworms from entering their main tank than having to deal with them once they're established.

Provided that I'm lucky enough not to get any in my live rock when I finally setup my tank, would quarantining corals be a feasible way of preventing getting them in my main tank?

[rshimek]

Yes, if you are lucky enough to see them on or off the coral, - - if any were present.

Careful examination and quarantine might well be the way to go.

:D

[Vpham97]

If you are afraid of it, quarantine is the only way to go. You'll see the FW crawl into the sandbed, or on the glass wall of your quarantine tank.

I don't quarantine the my fish, but I would quarantine the coral.

You not only need to quaratine against FW, but for Bryopsis, Aitapsia and Valonia as well.

If you are taking it slow. Put your rock in your tank for a couple of months, see if you have any of the above, then slowly add the coral last later.

Watch Out!

[Flame*Angel]

I have no problem with slow, I've been learning for almost a year now. My friends and family figure my new hobby has nothing to do with fish or corals - just books and equipment. :)

When I bought my quarantine tank I didn't think that I'd be considering putting corals in it though. It just has a NO florescent strip on it. I guess I'd better consider at least a PC. There is an excellent LFS in my area for fish and corals and even they have a valonia problem.

Thanks for the tip about the rock Vpham97, I'll be sure to have it in the tank a couple months before adding corals. I'll concentrate on getting my DSB thriving in the meantime.

One more question - approximately how long would you suggest I quarantine corals to try and determine if they have flat worms, bryopsis, aiptasia or valonia?

[Vpham97]

FW don't take long to collect on your glass or sand bed. They'll make their present known quickly.

Aitapsia/bubble algae would just pop in and out.

If you don't have any corals in your aquarium, it's easier to treat Aitapsia by dropping Peppermint shrimp in it.

As for bubble algae, I would like to hear of a solution for it myself. If you don't have any coral, you can take the rock out and nick pick straight out of the rock. Or get one of those crab that eat it.

You can quarantine all you want, but sooner or later down the line, you'll probably still encounter them in your aquarium. Quarantine does reduce the chance greatly.

I don't have a suggestion as to the timeline of quarantine.

I have seen dealer where there whole tank is covered in bubble algae. At first I though that these were good for the aquarium(I though this is what people are referring to as pod) -silly me.

[Mimbler1]

I had my flatworms (planaria) appear 4 months after my latest introduction to the tank. I've since had them for over a year. Quarantine may help prevent pests, but I dont think it will be a cure all.
Mike

[Breef]

I just thought that I would relate my experience with flatworms. I contacted them when I bought a few idems from a store in Dallas that had an infestation.I didn't notice it untill they were in mine. I dose my calcium with Ball's pickling lime. Just mix and drip like regular Kalk. It wasn't intentional but every once in a while I put a little too much in the water and or add it a little too quickly and I have a bit of a precipitation in the tank.Not too bad but slight cloudyness on the glass and rocks. It never has hurt anything before but this time was ever so slightly more. I usually just blow it off everything with my turkeybaster. Well the culture of flatworms that were just beginning to get to the point of bothering me simply crashed and disappeared. Seems they couldn't breath or something. It still didn't seem to hurt anything else so I was lucky.To this day I have no more flatworms. Haven't seen a one.

[Salt Creep]

Smiller,

I was lucky and found a couple of the slugs at the pet store I trade my xenia at, and since I had flatworms plastering the walls in my propagation tray and lots of store credit burning a hole in my pocket, I decided to give them a shot.

When I got the slugs home I covered the siphon outlet of the propagation tray (which leads to the main reef tank) with some mesh fabric, held in place with a rubber band. There are no powerheads in the tray... the water gets pumped in from the main tank. The slugs were pretty small when I put them in, but in a week when I got back from vacation the flatworm population was greatly diminished and the slugs had tripled in size!

A few days after I got back one of the slugs managed to get through the tray's emergency overflow and get killed by a powerhead in the sump. Before that though, they were mating and laying eggs quite regularly.
http://home.earthlink.net/~kenuy/chelinoduravarians.JPG

In a couple of weeks there were NO FLATWORMS left. Right now the remaining slug is slurping down flatworms in a friend's tank.

I think the most important thing besides getting the right kind of slug is to make sure there is no way for the slugs to get caught in overflows or powerheads. Covering powerhead intakes with sponges seems to work (in my friend's tank, which has no overflow).

Ken

[Vpham97]

Flame*Angel,

I wouldn't recommend it, but if you are that scared about FW, you can try to dip your coral in freshwater.

There are people who recommend dipping corals for 2-3 second. I was making sure, so I dipped the coral for 7-9 second. I swaggered the coral back and forth in a bucket of HOT tap water. Talking about double shocking the coral. I though that I might've dipped too long and the coral was melting away. The mushroom was all melting it gut out. The star polyp close up. The Kenya Tree, was shrivel up and shedding it skin. I had to blow the skin off w/ the powerhead. I though that I was going to lose it all. But everything recovered. After the dip, one of the mushroom went on a dividing binge. Anyway, that's probably going to be the last time I'm dipping my coral. It was a gory/bloody/slimy scence in the tank after the dip. I'm going to risk receiving FW rather than see my corals that way.

The biodiversity on those coral is about as good as it get, it's just not worth it in my opinion to dip the soft coral as you receive them, unless it's a frag.



[Edited by Vpham97 on 05-16-2001 at 03:16 AM]

[Breef]

Most of the organisms mentioned are visible to the naked eye. Although it is very easy to overlook something that small. As far as the flatworms go,if you are buying your livestock from a LFS then just look in their tanks around real close and you can usually tell if there is a problem with FW,Valonia,or aptasia.They are such a neusence that they can usually be spotted right away. Only if you know how to identify them in advance of course. I'm not saying its not possible to pick up a straggler.If you order by mail then quarantine is highly recomended.

[rshimek]

Ken,

Thanks for the informaton on the non-nudi's - sorry, the malacologist in me just can't call these animals nudi's - my foible, I guess.;)

They store sperm, and even a singleton should be laying eggs. It might be pretty easy to raise them.

:D

[Salt Creep]

Well, they don't have naked gills so we can't call them nudibrachs, can we? :-) They kind of remind me of two-tailed black weiner dogs wearing neon-blue trimmed wet suits.

I forgot to mention that they poop big wads of orange slime now and then, and the slime seems to be toxic. I had a mushroom that got pooped on that shriveled up and died. I guess it's the flatworm toxins all concentrated in the poop.

Ken

[rshimek]

Originally posted by Salt Creep

Hi Ken,

Well, they don't have naked gills so we can't call them nudibrachs, can we? :-) They kind of remind me of two-tailed black weiner dogs wearing neon-blue trimmed wet suits.

Ah... to each his own with similies.

Technically, they are bubble shells and they have a small internal shell, which no nudibranch has.

Also their guts are rather significantly different from nudibranchs.

That observation about the slime is a good one. Might be a good idea to remove it when you see it. I would bet they also concentrate some of the toxins in their own tissues. Species in the same genus found on the US Pacific coast are toxic to some fish (those guys eat nudibranchs, by the by).

:D

[Smitty91]

Hey Doc,

Do I have your permission to quote you on this thread for my web site?

These threads don't stay here forever and too many times, I read a thread, asking a question and I can't always recall exactly what the suggested resolution was, in all cases. Sometimes, it all seems like too much information! :D

What I'm trying to do, is put together a "Common Marine Annoyances & Solutions" webpage. If at best, I could refer back to the web page, should some of these questions pop up on other boards in the future.

Thanks,
Smitty :)

[rshimek]

Smitty,

It is fine with me, but just to cover all bases, and dot all t's and cross all i's, you should probably clear it with JohnL, the administrator of Reef Central.

:D

[smiller]

Dr. Ron,

I put the two slugs in the tank last Wed. evening. So far they have come close to eliminating all the flatworms in the front half of the tank (127 gallon). And beleive me it wasn't just a few! They have not explored the back of the tank yet for some reason but I'm sure their search will take them there. They also have not been interested in climbing the rock. Maybe because they haven't had to.

It is interesting that after I would siphon the flatworms only a day or two later it looked as though there were as many there as before. Now they keep those areas quite clean. But I wonder if after they come close to exterminating them how long one of them could survive on the limited amount still in the tank? I'm sure 100% eradication is impossible, and it does take only one to start the process again. At this rate I will need to look for a new home for one of them soon. Hopefully someone in my area will want to buy one.

BTW I am running carbon and a Poly-Filter full time to possibly take some of the waste out of the water. Will this help?

I can share some more interesting observations about these creatures with you if you are interested. Is the picture above a mating or "safety in numbers" sleeping position? They do this often.

Steve

[simonh]

Smiller,

I'm interested in hearing of your observations with these sea slugs and any pictures you may have.

[Agu]

I also received two of the slugs on thursday. I put them into the insump refugium first so I could observe them. They do eat flatworms !! They are also capable of going over/through barriers. They got into the pump return area of the sump either by climbing over a 1" barrier or going through a 1/4" hole. Fortunately I had securely covered the pump intake with a sponge or both of them would now be slug puree. I'd suggest covering all pump and powerhead intakes with sponges prior to introducing them to your tank.

It appears they eat the flatworms and then settle in for a nap. After clearing out a large group of flatworms one slug stopped on the substrate for a couple of hours without moving. Next time I checked it was gone. They do not appear to be nocturnal as they cruise out in the open with the mh lighting on.

Agu

[rshimek]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the observations. :D

[BurnNSpy]

If all else fails you could do a freshwater dip of the whole tank. It was completely successful in a tank that was taken over by flaworms. It will take all day to do and requires much preparation. The key to not destroying some sensitive corals was to adjust the freshwater to match Alk. and pH of the main tank.

For more info email me at [email protected]

BurnNSpy

[Agu]

Dr Ron,

If anyone is looking for further info about these slugs I highly recommend this link. Also, it has an excellent pic.


http://www.seaslugforum.net/chelvar.htm

Agu

[cat23]

Hey All,
Well, just look at that! I love this place! Looks like you have been bailed out! This is just why I love this board. Everyone working together to help this guy.
Your dream of life without parole seems like it's coming to an end!

[smiller]

simonh,

I will post some info in the morning. I am a little pressed for time today.


cat23,

I consider myself on parole as of now since I haven't had to siphon for a week. Still have a long way to go. I'm not out of the woods yet. I don't want to go back to striped sunlight. The type of info to come out of this thread is one of the reasons Reef Central has no equal! Thanks to all!!

[smiller]

Here are some comments and observations on the Chelidonura varians.

I ordered them for Wed. morning delivery but because of a zip code error they didn't get floated in the tank until 7:50pm. I wondered if they would be alive. They were, but since I had no idea how hearty they were I floated them for 15 minutes, added 50% water for another 15 and released them to remove them from their yellowish stained water. The second they touched the bottom they were on the hunt.

The area along the mouth has a line of what looks like small bristles that run the length of the head. They act as sensors. When they touch a flatworm the head quickly jerks left or right and in a flash their long tongue (for lack of the proper term) comes out and grabs the planaria and continues on, never missing a beat. The planaria know trouble is on the way and will often try to run.

They will eat until their body looks as though it is going to explode. Then they will stop and rest for anywhere from an hour to several hours. Sometimes they will curl up together. I'm not sure if that is some kind of mating ritual or not.

So far they have not left the front half of the tank. they especially like the sand along the glass. As they need more food I'm sure they will move toward the back. They definitely prefer the sand over the rock as they have shown little interest in climbing it past a few inches. They seem to hesitate to leave their territory.

Sometimes when they climb they will leave a web-like substance which they hold to. They can drop slowly from a rock by releasing the web like a safety rope. When they sleep on the glass they will actually be connected by the web and not firmly touching the glass. Some nights they will use this to build a cocoon around part of their body. When I have removed it the next day I found it is thick and gel-like.

So far so good but still a long row to hoe. As these slugs eat flatworms only I would see this as something that will have to be repeated from time to time as they will run out of enough planaria to survive but could not possibly find every one. Hopefully they will be available in the future. It would be a good system to find some local folks with the same situation and pass them around.

Thanks again for all the info.

[Breef]

Why not start a totally separate container that you can culture the flatworms in and then when your tank is on the verge of being clean of them,remove the slugs to a separate container and feed them sparingly to keep them alive and or breeding,just an idea.

[rshimek]

Hi Folks,

Breef's suggestion is an excellent one. There is likely to be a classical predator/prey cycle set up in the tanks, where the slugs will eat all the worms they can find (which won't be all the worms) and then the slugs will die of starvation. Shortly thereafter the worms will start to reappear and in a few weeks/months you will have the problem again. It would be good to have some of the predators in reserve.

:D

[Breef]

Doc,its a good thing I don't go out for hats,my head feels a little bigger:rollface:

[smiller]

The question I would have is what is the minimum feeding requirements for these guys? I'm sure they don't need as much as they eat now. The amount they eat would make me wonder if only two tanks rotated as you say would be enough to keep them alive. Once the first tank is close to clear going with only one would probably be the best route.

A flatworm tank. Just when you think you've heard it all.

[Jake]

I have read that some nudibranches, that eat prey with symbiotic algae, incorperate the algae into their tissue and derive some nutrients from photosynthesis thereafter. Is this factual Dr. Ron and if so is their any information on this species assimilating the flatworms zoozanthelle to supplement it's own nutrition? If so, could lighting play an important part in keeping these nudibranches alive in the tank for a period after the initial flatworm crash to pick up stragglers?

Jake

[rshimek]

Hi,

Jake, some corrections are in order.

I have read that some nudibranches, that eat prey with symbiotic algae, incorperate the algae into their tissue and derive some nutrients from photosynthesis thereafter.

Actually this occurs in sacoglossan opisthobranchs. Although hobbyists tend to call these animals nudibranchs, they are actually very different animals (about as closely related to nudibranchs as dogs are to cows, for example :D). They don't incorporate the algae into their tissues. They digest all of the algae, with the exception of the subcellular photosyntetic bodies (called chloroplasts). These are what they incorporate into their bodies. Although this sounds like the use of zooxanthellae, it is really very different.

The animals that eat the flatworms are also NOT nudibrachs but a type of snail referred to as a "bubble shell" (or cephalaspidean), and again these are only distantly related to nudibranchs. But, they are probably even more distantly related to the sacoglossans and have no capability of utiizing either the chlorplasts or zooxanthellae, they simply digest 'em all.

To keep these animals alive, they will need flatworms as food.

smiller - Yes, you would have to keep some flatworms going to keep the Chelidoneura alive. Just as the folks who culture Berghia for control of Aiptasia need to culture the anemone, to keep these slugs going, you will need to provide them with the appropriate food.

However, you will only need to keep a few adults alive, as long as you can culture the larvae. The larvae will need the flatworm food as soon as they settle as well. My feeling, however, if you know other folks in your area with the flatworms, getting some to feed the slugs should not be too difficult.

[MJB]

Couple of other observations concerning these slugs and their prey. They do not seem to be particularly efficient and by this I mean their search seems to be somewhat random. I am guessing that thay are only marginally chemotactic at best (compared to say serpent stars or nassarius snails etc. that react instantly when food hits the water) and rely on shear numbers of prey to keep them well fed. Interestingly enough, the planaria really boogie out of the way when the slugs start plowing through them . Don't know if this is a mechano, chemo, or possiblly phototactic response (to the big shadow bearing down on them). In any case this suggests to me that as the number of flatworms is reduced, encounter rates will be reduced as well and then it boils down to how long can the slug go on searching before it starves to death. It only takes a couple of worms hiding in some crevice in the rock work to start the population explosion again. Nothing scientific here but its an interesting sideline that seems more annoying because the flatworms are so damned ugly.------Mark

[Breef]

This last post brings me back to thinking that there may be a use in the reaction that I had and them{F.W.}disappearing when I had the preticipation in my tank from the addition of a bit too much lime.It has been at least two months and I have noticed no additional flatworms in my tank.They were at the verge on overpopulation when it happened.Although they hadn't gotten to the point where I would have syphoned any.I do have a goodly variety of invertebrae and fish in my tank and they were entirely uneffected by the event.My water parameters are also in line.I do know that if I ever acquire the flatworms again,I will attempt the same erradicationt to confirm the event.Any technique that is helpful in our hobby is an advantage.

[smiller]

Dr. Ron,

Let's back up for a minute to the Oomed option. Whem you use this on a tank and it causes death of some of the other tank life, is it the Oomed itself or the poisoning of the water from the dead planaria? My thought was to use it when the planaria population was as close to zero as possible. Just a thought.

Thought #2:

As the slugs are reluctant to climb the rock would the flatworms simply multiply fast enough there to be periodically blown off to the sand and keep one of them alive?

[Edited by smiller on 05-23-2001 at 11:58 AM]

[rshimek]

Hi,

I can't help here. I don't know the mode of mortality from the Oomed treatment. The incidental mortality of other things may well be due to toxins released from the dying flatworms. If a tank is treated, which is then followed by a massive water change, followed by heavy skimming and carbon treatment, would there be any non-worm mortality?

I don't know.

:D

[MJB]

Breef, I'll direct this to you since you refered to my post but it is a general comment. I haven't been on the boards all that long but when I found the flatworms in my systems I did a search. It turns out that at least anecdotally your observation about the precip. is interesting. I think you'll find that several people have reported the disappearence of flatworms when water params. got out of whack. Tank temp. soars to 95 degrees ....no more flatworms, raised my dKh to 5.5.......no more flatworms. Overdosed with lime..... no more flatworms. How is this helpful? Someone will no doubt find out, maybe you. Enjoy----------Mark

[Agu]

"...is it the Oomed itself or the poisoning of the water from the dead planaria."

I've been trying to figure that out myself. Since I can't here's the scenario as best as I recall.

The tank (180)was treated with the prescribed dosage at 6pm. Oomed was added by pouring it into the pump intake area of the sump and returned to the tank through two returns. I never did observe the floating dying flatworms that some people reported. It was more like they disappeared. The next morning everything appeared to be fine so I left for work. At lunch time when I checked the tank the fish, esp the yellow tang, were very agitated. Closer inspection revealed that a large trumpet with about 25 polyps had melted down. Also, about four small sps in various areas of the tank were completely bleached. The corals were removed and water tested. Measurable ammonia was detected, I don't recall how much, but enough to be a problem. I immediatelly aborted the treatment, added carbon and polyfilter to the system, and did a 30 gal water change. (did all this in an hour lunch break, obviously I didn't get to eat).

After work when I checked the tank the yellow tang was dead as were a couple of more sps, and the fish were obviously in distress. Ammonia had doubled in the past four hours. Since I had no more ro/di water I went to the LFS and picked up "ammolock" and dechlorinator. After two more 30 gal water changes I went to bed fearing the worst. The next morning things looked ok, and by noon everything was out and about, including some flatworm :(.

Originally I assumed the flatworms poisoned the tank. After further reflection, the dying trumpet which was in the direct flow from one of the returns, could have been killed by the poorly diluted Oomed. That in conjunction with the dying flatworms probably pushed the whole system over the edge.

The aftermath was almost as bad, my previously healthy powder blue developed ick, infected all his stressed out tankmates, and in a month all but one firefish died or disappeared.

I've come to appreciate flatworms as "diversity" :D.

Agu

[moses]

Hey Smiller,

I have no idea where Cedar Creek Lake, TX is, but if it is anywhere near Houston, TX I would be more than happy to borrow / purchase your flatworm eating slugs.

My 72 gallon has begun to look like it is being invaded by an army of little orange boxes. Also there are several others in the Houston area that have flatworm problems as well. Maybe we could keep those slugs of yours alive after all. Please let me know.

Based on Agu's horror story above, I will never dose Oomed...it just ain't worth that kind of pain.

As for a FW dip, it might be OK, one LFS does that here in Houston for all incoming corals... However he does NOT use HOT tap water. To me that is insane! Instead he uses tank temperature RO/DI water. I think the osmotic pressure from freshwater alone causes the flatworm to pop to death. However that critical flaw with this method is that it cannot used on a sand bed, as it will destroy all of the sandbed's fauna in addition to the flat worm, thereby rendering the important filter in the tank useless.

Darren

[smiller]

moses,

I'm about an hour east of Dallas, not exactly close to Houston. If anyone in the Dallas area would like to work a deal on passing these around please get in touch with me. My flatworm population is running low. I do not want to ship them.