help with RTN Strawberry Shortcake Pink-line syndrome?

[kittyworm]

Please help identify this coral disease.

This Strawberry Shortcake has been in the tank for over 7months. Apeared normal still today during daytime but at night in less than 6 hours it lost half its tissue. There is a pink mark on the skeleton that looks similar to the pink-line syndrome.

I got some frags over the internet couple weeks ago. All frags were lost within couple of days. Since then, there has been continuous RTN with SPS in my tank. I lost over 8 colonies and many frags since then and has not been able to find out the cause.

I checked water parameters over the week both day and night, all seems to be within normal range.
If any one knows whats going on please help. Thanks!

photo is taken off light with cellphone, so its not too clear.
http://www.cmfish.com/bbs/data/attachment/forum/201308/09/232346kfvuo7gxxb8fugh1.jpg

p.s
System has been running for nearly a year and SPS
were growing normally before this crisis.
Here is a photo of the tank I took a couple of months ago
http://www.cmfish.com/bbs/data/attachment/forum/201305/21/210636lo6o9vu6d8py90sz.jpg

[kbriers]

Sorry I can't help you at all with your problem but I wanted to tell you that you have an amazing looking tank:beer:

[Ajskennels]

stray voltage maybe

[Gangous]

How can u check for stray voltage? Will that pale out coral?

[Ajskennels]

im not sure of the rules here on RC so i wont post a link but if you just google " testing for stray voltage in a aquarium" you will be able to find it. i say stray voltage because you said the tank is around a year old, from my experiance most equipment will degrade by this time and start emitting stray voltage, also cracked wires, its just a thought. not sure if it will cause paling but i could assume it can, it adds stress to the tank

[kittyworm]

stray voltage maybe

One of the return pump (eheim 1262) and one of the MP40wes is from my old tank, about 2-3years old. The rest are less than a year. The ATI powermodule I used in the first couple of months had some major stray voltage problem, which I soon switched to HQI and LED before I added any livestock to the tank. There was still some very small amount of voltage leakage in the sump, but all the fish seems fine since then.
Anyways, I'm ganna check again when I get home. Thanks for the help :D

[kittyworm]

Sorry I can't help you at all with your problem but I wanted to tell you that you have an amazing looking tank:beer:

Thanks, its sad watching them die off and not being able to find the cause :facepalm:

[trueblackpercula]

New frags + 8 colonies lost = AEFW maybe? Did you dip your corals. Get some better pictures. Also what is your ALk at as I am sure it dropped once you added all the new frags. Are you feeding your Sps. I think you need to post more information before we could better help you.

[kbriers]

Thanks, its sad watching them die off and not being able to find the cause :facepalm:

Yeah I bet. The great thing about this forum though is 99.9% are here to share their experiences/problems/results etc. There will be more than enough people that are willing to give helpful suggestions that will get your sps problems under control.

Not that it's worth much from a noob like me, but don't change everything at once. Yeah doing a 1000 different things may fix the problem, but you will never know what the initial cause was and you will be in the same boat as now. Make sure params are stable and patience is the key. I know its easier said than done but that's why I'm saying it. Ha

I wish you the best.

[kittyworm]

New frags + 8 colonies lost = AEFW maybe? Did you dip your corals. Get some better pictures. Also what is your ALk at as I am sure it dropped once you added all the new frags. Are you feeding your Sps. I think you need to post more information before we could better help you.

I'd like to firstly thank you for your help.

When the problem first started, I observed the affected corals with magnifier, saw no bite marks and no signs of AEFW. The affected coral tissue seems to just float off. This coral is the first sign of pink mark, the privious ones did not have it.

I added 4 small frags, all dipped with Coral pro RX, but I remember someone telling me that eggs cannot be killed. I also use zeovit FlatwormStop regularly (missing few days here and there)

Other things I add are:
Zeovit CV, AA, SP, Food7, Xtra, bak, BB (at ~1/3 suggested amount or interval)
Reefpearls almost everynight
Brightwell MB7, phytochrom, zooplanktos (I used over a last 2 months but has since then stopped as I noticed that the later two smells wierd, like the oil we use in painting)
cyclop-eeze, Thera SPECTRUM THERA+A, Ocean Nutrition formula2 to fish everyday.

Ca, Mg, Kh is maitained with dosing pump.

My system is about 100gallon. My fish is a little overstacked so I skim abit heavily, which I replace every day, adding up to about 10% each week with another 10-15% water change every month.

Salinity is mantianed at about 1.024

Using Salifert test: Kh ranging from around 7.3-7.7 over the past week. Mg is about 1380, Ca is about 400. NO3 around 0.05. PO4 not visible. Potassium about 400. I dont have Strontium test kit.

I will try to get a better picture when I get home. Let me know if I'm missing any info that could be helpful

[kittyworm]

Yeah I bet. The great thing about this forum though is 99.9% are here to share their experiences/problems/results etc. There will be more than enough people that are willing to give helpful suggestions that will get your sps problems under control.

Not that it's worth much from a noob like me, but don't change everything at once. Yeah doing a 1000 different things may fix the problem, but you will never know what the initial cause was and you will be in the same boat as now. Make sure params are stable and patience is the key. I know its easier said than done but that's why I'm saying it. Ha

I wish you the best.

:thumbsup: tks

[kittyworm]

[QUOTE=kittyworm;21792107]Please help identify this coral disease.


***Some new picture, the coral is in the back corner of the tank, as there is not enough distance from the wall, I cannot get better quality pics without removing it from the tank:

http://www.cmfish.com/bbs/data/attachment/forum/201308/10/152152lwlikq9qrlq4lkkp.jpg
http://www.cmfish.com/bbs/data/attachment/forum/201308/10/152153h0141n6vyg6xe14e.jpg
http://www.cmfish.com/bbs/data/attachment/forum/201308/10/152155be9jpjhcjojs84sf.jpg
http://www.cmfish.com/bbs/data/attachment/forum/201308/10/152156mwpzhhlwhoqpoxl0.jpg

[bmullikin1]

had similar thing happen, still not sure myself, could you have stirred up sand bed, kh a little low perhaps, I ended up just fragging colonies to save what was left, i did have an alk swing, good luck and nice tank, do you have a grounding probe.

[Moser]

Frag the healthy tips off. You might save some of that beautiful coral.

You are dosing a lot from several systems.
You dose 2 different bacterial strains… why?.

Do you run stones as well?
It could just be an overdose. e.g. too much bacteria can strip nutrients. Also, BB can strip corals if you overdo it…..
If you're nitrate and phos are zero, you could do a full dose of Pohl's extra for a few days….. it contains a lot of nutrient for corals that are struggling for nutrition.

Mo

[rigleautomotive]

It appears you may have a severe bacteria infection . Adding liquid foods and bacteria strains in hopes you will reduce nutrients will many times get you exactly what you now have. A petri dish of bacteria. KISS is the method I will suggest if you plan to rebuild and grow stoney corals again. I have seen a trend in this type of melt down in the last couple years and more so in the last year. One common thread found when investigating these types of coral death is, additions of bacteria are usually in the equation. And if they are not, perishable liquid foods are used. My theory is the bac dosing and liquid foods develop some harmful bacteria in the container and if conditions are correct for this to thrive in the aquarium(for example if ph is appropriate or nutrients are available) this strain of bacteria gains foothold and removes flesh from acropora very efficiently. The low ph realized when light are off for the dark photo period would indicate to me the bacteria consuming your corals like lower ph. Most sea water bacteria we see like the lower end of the ph scale and this is why I believe back in the early days kalk was used as a remedy for different nuisance bacterias with good results. Raising the ph to 8.3 to 8.5 consistently and stable will sometimes halt the progression of death but is dangerous in itself without careful monitoring of alkalinity and ph with a accurate probe.

[kittyworm]

had similar thing happen, still not sure myself, could you have stirred up sand bed, kh a little low perhaps, I ended up just fragging colonies to save what was left, i did have an alk swing, good luck and nice tank, do you have a grounding probe.

I have a grounding probe. I did purchase a gold head goby which is stirring up a lot of sand. It seems that bacteria is the problem. Thanks for the help :D

[kittyworm]

Frag the healthy tips off. You might save some of that beautiful coral.

You are dosing a lot from several systems.
You dose 2 different bacterial strains… why?.

Do you run stones as well?
It could just be an overdose. e.g. too much bacteria can strip nutrients. Also, BB can strip corals if you overdo it…..
If you're nitrate and phos are zero, you could do a full dose of Pohl's extra for a few days….. it contains a lot of nutrient for corals that are struggling for nutrition.

Mo

Tks for the help. I do not run stones. I do add alot of different things at a reduced amount(1/3 suggested amount), I guess this is bad?
Newly tested NO3 is 0.5 and PO4 is 0.02 using hanna. I think I'm going to stop dosing all together for awhile and do frequent water change of ~20% for a couple of days and see how everything goes. Let me know if doing this is ok.

[kittyworm]

It appears you may have a severe bacteria infection . Adding liquid foods and bacteria strains in hopes you will reduce nutrients will many times get you exactly what you now have. A petri dish of bacteria. KISS is the method I will suggest if you plan to rebuild and grow stoney corals again. I have seen a trend in this type of melt down in the last couple years and more so in the last year. One common thread found when investigating these types of coral death is, additions of bacteria are usually in the equation. And if they are not, perishable liquid foods are used. My theory is the bac dosing and liquid foods develop some harmful bacteria in the container and if conditions are correct for this to thrive in the aquarium(for example if ph is appropriate or nutrients are available) this strain of bacteria gains foothold and removes flesh from acropora very efficiently. The low ph realized when light are off for the dark photo period would indicate to me the bacteria consuming your corals like lower ph. Most sea water bacteria we see like the lower end of the ph scale and this is why I believe back in the early days kalk was used as a remedy for different nuisance bacterias with good results. Raising the ph to 8.3 to 8.5 consistently and stable will sometimes halt the progression of death but is dangerous in itself without careful monitoring of alkalinity and ph with a accurate probe.

Thanks! I think you are right that bacteria is the problem as a newly diseased red staghorn shows green mark that is similar to the pink mark on its skeleton.
Ph is 8.3 during daytime and 7.8 at night. I think I may not be able to maintain a steady Ph due to work.
Will stop additives all together and doing frequent water change be of help? What amount of water change at this stage would you suggest? Someone suggested using Cefalexin for 3days, but I'm afraid the it will further damage the fragile system, what do you think of it?

[rigleautomotive]

Thanks! I think you are right that bacteria is the problem as a newly diseased red staghorn shows green mark that is similar to the pink mark on its skeleton.
Ph is 8.3 during daytime and 7.8 at night. I think I may not be able to maintain a steady Ph due to work.
Will stop additives all together and doing frequent water change be of help? What amount of water change at this stage would you suggest? Someone suggested using Cefalexin for 3days, but I'm afraid the it will further damage the fragile system, what do you think of it?

The beauty of sea water is if water quality is kept at very high quality, the very bacteria you try to dose will occur at the proper proportions to process PO4 and NO3 without intervention. I think the death occurs when trying to manipulate these to thrive in poor quality water by dosing and to process excess nutrients rather then doing strong maintenance and removal.

IMO, it can work but it is like using a hammer and chisel to cut diamonds. Just too harsh and hard to control for such a easy process that occurs naturally in nature. Maintain very good water quality through regular maintenance and dosing and manipulating cultures is not needed. If anything, Lessen variables until success is achieved long term, then try to tweek colors or growth with fine tuning nutrients and minerals if you so desire.

Process or remove and dilute ? I use remove and dilute ! I do large water changes weekly with a param matched(to my DT) mix . 25 % total volume weekly works for me. GL

[Acronic]

May be worth while to look into dosing some lugols. It is a strong oxidizer and will raise the redox. Could also help in the war on bacteria.

Dans right, a thorough cleaning, remove and dilute is a good starting point.

Nice tank ;)

[Moser]

The beauty of sea water is if water quality is kept at very high quality, the very bacteria you try to dose will occur at the proper proportions to process PO4 and NO3 without intervention. I think the death occurs when trying to manipulate these to thrive in poor quality water by dosing and to process excess nutrients rather then doing strong maintenance and removal.

IMO, it can work but it is like using a hammer and chisel to cut diamonds. Just too harsh and hard to control for such a easy process that occurs naturally in nature. Maintain very good water quality through regular maintenance and dosing and manipulating cultures is not needed. If anything, Lessen variables until success is achieved long term, then try to tweek colors or growth with fine tuning nutrients and minerals if you so desire.

Process or remove and dilute ? I use remove and dilute ! I do large water changes weekly with a param matched(to my DT) mix . 25 % total volume weekly works for me. GL

Do it like Dan says.
I always say, look at the tank of the person who is advising.
I also say, if you like a tank, do EXACTLY as they do…..

Do what Dan does!. The principles of his system are about as simple as you can get and his system is about the best you can get!!.

I would certainly try water changes when my system is struggling!.

Mo

[rigleautomotive]

Thank you but I must say I am as humble as I am old, and this is alot. lol. I do not pretend to know more then anyone and never offer my advise unless I lived the game. Lived through the death and regrowth and proved it to myself repeatedly. That being said, The 50 or so cases I have studied with experienced aquarists and meltdowns of this sort , had a few things in common. Sand beds that were old. Dosing of bacteria or liquid foods, and a large # or acroporas. These seemed to be a common thread and success was achieved in all these cases long term until the addition of refrigerated foods or carbon and bacteria dosing was employed.

My theory is that a bacteria strain is capable of thriving in the medium these products use and can inoculate a aquarium with a flesh eating bacteria as well as the beneficial type that naturally occur . If conditions are favorable to this rouge bacteria, it will flourish and not stop until it slowly consumes all living flesh it feeds on. Sometimes very coral specific also IME . Again, I do believe a elevated ph slows or stops the on slaught but other then that, not much to do. keep excellent water quality. frag any live coral above the necrosis and super glue to sterilize covering some of the live tissue. increase flow and protein skimming. wish I had more to help !! It is hard to watch for sure. GL

one more thing. Be certain you are at full strength salinity. These issues seem to favor lower sg.
1.026 on a calibrated refractometer is what I shoot for and stable

[reef bloke]

Not much to add really but I have noticed the pink staining on two stripped SS corals at seperate times. I don't think its a bacterial band disease but a pigment deposited into the calcium carbonate and could possibly be the norm for that type of coral.

[kittyworm]

Thank you but I must say I am as humble as I am old, and this is alot. lol. I do not pretend to know more then anyone and never offer my advise unless I lived the game. Lived through the death and regrowth and proved it to myself repeatedly. That being said, The 50 or so cases I have studied with experienced aquarists and meltdowns of this sort , had a few things in common. Sand beds that were old. Dosing of bacteria or liquid foods, and a large # or acroporas. These seemed to be a common thread and success was achieved in all these cases long term until the addition of refrigerated foods or carbon and bacteria dosing was employed.

My theory is that a bacteria strain is capable of thriving in the medium these products use and can inoculate a aquarium with a flesh eating bacteria as well as the beneficial type that naturally occur . If conditions are favorable to this rouge bacteria, it will flourish and not stop until it slowly consumes all living flesh it feeds on. Sometimes very coral specific also IME . Again, I do believe a elevated ph slows or stops the on slaught but other then that, not much to do. keep excellent water quality. frag any live coral above the necrosis and super glue to sterilize covering some of the live tissue. increase flow and protein skimming. wish I had more to help !! It is hard to watch for sure. GL

one more thing. Be certain you are at full strength salinity. These issues seem to favor lower sg.
1.026 on a calibrated refractometer is what I shoot for and stable

Thanks alot! I will do water changes and increase salinity as you suggested. I was not able to frag any of the effected corals as they all died too fast, but I will do as you suggest and hope I can save ones that are left. Again, thanks for all the help.

[kittyworm]

May be worth while to look into dosing some lugols. It is a strong oxidizer and will raise the redox. Could also help in the war on bacteria.

Dans right, a thorough cleaning, remove and dilute is a good starting point.

Nice tank ;)

Thanks for the help. Does TM coral Iodine have similar effect to lugols, or its completely different thing? I used to add Iodine to the system, but has stopped for a long time. I just did a 30% water change since yesterday, and will maintain water changes like Dan suggested, hope everything goes well.

[kittyworm]

Do it like Dan says.
I always say, look at the tank of the person who is advising.
I also say, if you like a tank, do EXACTLY as they do…..

Do what Dan does!. The principles of his system are about as simple as you can get and his system is about the best you can get!!.

I would certainly try water changes when my system is struggling!.

Mo

Thanks :D I've done some water changes yesterday, and will continue like Dan suggested. Guess I just tried too many things on the system as I was trying to figure out a way that best suited me. This system was planned as an experimental system for the tank I'm about to start later this year when I move to a new home, so I tried too many things at once and it just made everything worse. It was very irresponsible of me to put all the livestocks at risk, and I'm very sorry for it.

[kittyworm]

Not much to add really but I have noticed the pink staining on two stripped SS corals at seperate times. I don't think its a bacterial band disease but a pigment deposited into the calcium carbonate and could possibly be the norm for that type of coral.

I guess you could be right about the stain. A couple of people told me of the same thing after my post, I guess I might have jumped to conclusions about the stain. Anyhow, something must be wrong in the water that I cannot find out from test kits, so waterchange right now sounds like the best and safest way to start. Thank you for the help :D

[rigleautomotive]

Thanks :D I've done some water changes yesterday, and will continue like Dan suggested. Guess I just tried too many things on the system as I was trying to figure out a way that best suited me. This system was planned as an experimental system for the tank I'm about to start later this year when I move to a new home, so I tried too many things at once and it just made everything worse. It was very irresponsible of me to put all the livestocks at risk, and I'm very sorry for it.

Your intentions were good but you had some bad information. I would not place the blame on yourself . The hobby is riddled with bad info, no science, and plenty of snake oil. Throw some creative marketing on top and it is no wonder, the keeping of corals is thought to be impossible for new comers. The beauty is you are smarter today then yesterday and the day before. You will,if you want it bad enough, succeed and have the reef of your dreams. Patience is key .

[rigleautomotive]

Thanks for the help. Does TM coral Iodine have similar effect to lugols, or its completely different thing? I used to add Iodine to the system, but has stopped for a long time. I just did a 30% water change since yesterday, and will maintain water changes like Dan suggested, hope everything goes well.

TMPCC is a dip for removing pests on corals. Not my fav as it is harsh to some species. A good gentile effective dip I use is TLF Revive.

Lugols is a iodide additive and I would caution dosing it. It becomes toxic at very low levels and is very hard to get a accurate measurement of its density in sea water. Most titration kits are a epic failure for iodine. Dosing it blindly is not the route I would suggest in your circumstance but it has shown to be helpful in some old reefs with stn or toxic tank meltdown.

[Piper27]

Dan, thank you for sharing your experience. I was wondering, if there is a coral affected by this bad bacteria, is it a bad idea to introduce it to another separate system? Obviously there would be no carbon dosing or any other reasons for the corals problems in this new tank, so would that be a good idea? Is there a risk on passing on this bad bacteria?

I have had the same experience of rtn, (except without the pink lines, which I am not fimilar with...) but in my case it may have been a few other different issues that started the rtn. All were different than the original poster but same results.

Kittyworm, where do the corals start to rtn from and how long did they take to die completely?

[kittyworm]

TMPCC is a dip for removing pests on corals. Not my fav as it is harsh to some species. A good gentile effective dip I use is TLF Revive.

Lugols is a iodide additive and I would caution dosing it. It becomes toxic at very low levels and is very hard to get a accurate measurement of its density in sea water. Most titration kits are a epic failure for iodine. Dosing it blindly is not the route I would suggest in your circumstance but it has shown to be helpful in some old reefs with stn or toxic tank meltdown.

Thanks for the reply, I will not try Lugol.

TLF Revive and Pro Rx is what I usually use for dipping new corals. I guess I used TM pro coral iodine wrongly as LFS suggested it was meant to add Iodine to the system and a couple months ago I used to add it regulary into the system as instructed on the bottle...orz.

I just lost the red staghorn today, saved two frags on the tip, hope tissue stops peeling off. Havent seen additional RTN corals so I guess its a good sign.

Just another question, LFS ran out of the DD salt I have been using, I can only get Instant Ocean at this point, If I switch salt at this point, is there going to have anymore negative effect on the system? should I do multiple small water changes everyday, or a couple of larger ones over the week?

Also, Should I reduce light at this movement? I have a radium 400W 10000K HQI running 6 hrs a day, and a pair of Mazzara P LED (about 96W) runnig on default program. Main tank is 100 X 65 X 55H (CM)

[kittyworm]

Dan, thank you for sharing your experience. I was wondering, if there is a coral affected by this bad bacteria, is it a bad idea to introduce it to another separate system? Obviously there would be no carbon dosing or any other reasons for the corals problems in this new tank, so would that be a good idea? Is there a risk on passing on this bad bacteria?

I have had the same experience of rtn, (except without the pink lines, which I am not fimilar with...) but in my case it may have been a few other different issues that started the rtn. All were different than the original poster but same results.

Kittyworm, where do the corals start to rtn from and how long did they take to die completely?

Usually in the middle section of the coral. If left untouched normally completely die off in a day or two. Tissues start floating off at night, and are mostly gone by the time I get up in the morning. There are a couple of speciments that last a few more days though.

[1000_smiles]

Sorry I don't have any helpful suggestions, but I am interested in how you are getting along. So could you keep us posted. I will be tagging along.

I experienced something similar recently, which unfortunately ended in a tank wipe. I figured that something bad had gotten into the tank and after reading Dan's comment, it could very well have been the liquid coral food that led to a bacterial infection.

Here are a few things I am wondering about as I read this thread:

Would a UV sterilizer (old school, I know) be effective/useful in controlling a bacterial infection, or are simple water changes as effective?

Could an established beneficial bacterial population be the difference between a successful tank and one that is struggling? I remember when people used to get a handful of sand from an established successful tank to seed new tanks. Do people still do that?

Are aqua cultured corals more tolerant to the bacterial soup in our tanks than wild corals, hence the greater success with them?

Sorry for rambling on. Since the mail order frags seem to have started everything, and you dipped and inspected them, I am wondering how to prevent a reoccurance.

Best of luck. You have a beautiful tank.

[kittyworm]

Sorry I don't have any helpful suggestions, but I am interested in how you are getting along. So could you keep us posted. I will be tagging along.

I experienced something similar recently, which unfortunately ended in a tank wipe. I figured that something bad had gotten into the tank and after reading Dan's comment, it could very well have been the liquid coral food that led to a bacterial infection.

Here are a few things I am wondering about as I read this thread:

Would a UV sterilizer (old school, I know) be effective/useful in controlling a bacterial infection, or are simple water changes as effective?

Could an established beneficial bacterial population be the difference between a successful tank and one that is struggling? I remember when people used to get a handful of sand from an established successful tank to seed new tanks. Do people still do that?

Are aqua cultured corals more tolerant to the bacterial soup in our tanks than wild corals, hence the greater success with them?

Sorry for rambling on. Since the mail order frags seem to have started everything, and you dipped and inspected them, I am wondering how to prevent a reoccurance.

Best of luck. You have a beautiful tank.

I have never used UV sterilizer so cannot comment on it.

I'm not sure about the sand thing from established tank, people around me with 2-3 years + systems used to add small amounts of fress liverock to the sump and replace it every now and then, I guess its with similar intentions.

From my experience, aqua cultured corals do have a higher chance of success in home aquarium. At least speciements that do not do well away from the wild is already being screened off.

I guess the best way of introducing new livestock into the system is to have a quaranteen tank. Not having it is my greatest regret about this current tank. I've battled with multiple types of nuesance algae, flatworms, monti eating nudibranch, pyramid snails and things I cant even identify. I would certainly install a guaranteen tank when I move to a new apartment.

Well these are just what I know from my understanding. Hope others with more knowledge can shed more light on it.

[LawmanRob]

I'm Going through the same exact experience in my DB 30 cube, I also have a JBJ 28 PRO LED that has had no issues.
I recently moved from Knoxville, Tn to Nashville, Tn, so this led me to think it was the effects of a mini cycle. The fact that I have not lost any corals other than SPS has me seriously doubting any damaging cycle occurred.
The only things different that I have done are: I added a few drops of MB7 and I began to feed Oyster Feast.
My best description of what is occurring is, rtn just on the tips during the day, in the morning total RTN, just bare white skeleton. Also, it's not several corals at a time, they are perishing one by one.
At this point I'm a day or two away from breaking the tank down completely to start over, I hope I don't have to do this.

I just did a 15 gallon water change, I run WM Biopellets, ROX carbon, GFO, Eshopps S-120 skimmer, Radion G2; I have 3 clownfish, all around 1";
My parametres are:
Salinity: 1.025 (refractometer calibrated using 2 different solutions)
Nitrate: 2-5 (Salifert)
Alk: 7.7 (Salifert) I've been testing for the past week to set up dosing.
Calcium 470 (Salifert) I have not dosed Cal, not sure why it's this high.
Mag (No test) I need to order a new kit.
Phos ~.15 (Hanna) I tested 4 times .09, .14, .15, and .16

[animalkingdom]

Similar experience happened to me a while back...this was a very interesting read as I could never figure out what was the cause. It may or may not have corresponded to the use of oyster feast and carbon dosing. IT was too long ago to remember for sure. All I know now is I no longer am having this issue and am keeping it simple with just lights skimming and water changes. I really like reading Dan's theory. Very interesting.

[blakers82]

Interesting theories. I'm a KISS fan myself and on the water change train.

[Allmost]

TMPCC is a dip for removing pests on corals. Not my fav as it is harsh to some species. A good gentile effective dip I use is TLF Revive.

Lugols is a iodide additive and I would caution dosing it. It becomes toxic at very low levels and is very hard to get a accurate measurement of its density in sea water. Most titration kits are a epic failure for iodine. Dosing it blindly is not the route I would suggest in your circumstance but it has shown to be helpful in some old reefs with stn or toxic tank meltdown.

quick side question. do you dose Organic carbon of any type at all ?

my Idea behind dosing bacteria strains once in a while is to basically make sure its them taking up C and N and P, and not some pest or flesh eating bacteria ... but I like your logic alot too, so just wanted to know if you dose organic carbon or not .

thanks

[tripdad]

I have had some luck battling STN, not RTN, by immediatly raising my alk level 1 point over 24 hrs. I know this seems risky but it is the only thing that has worked at all for me. I normally keep it at 8.5. The corals seem to be able to handle an up-spike fairly well but not a downward spike for me anyway. I dont dose anything other than 2-part and fish food. Then I lower it back down slowly over days as I watch for coral reaction.I have only saved a single RTN'ing coral by doing a super glue band above the necrosis line. Just my experience for what it's worth, good luck.

[kittyworm]

I'm Going through the same exact experience in my DB 30 cube, I also have a JBJ 28 PRO LED that has had no issues.
I recently moved from Knoxville, Tn to Nashville, Tn, so this led me to think it was the effects of a mini cycle. The fact that I have not lost any corals other than SPS has me seriously doubting any damaging cycle occurred.
The only things different that I have done are: I added a few drops of MB7 and I began to feed Oyster Feast.
My best description of what is occurring is, rtn just on the tips during the day, in the morning total RTN, just bare white skeleton. Also, it's not several corals at a time, they are perishing one by one.
At this point I'm a day or two away from breaking the tank down completely to start over, I hope I don't have to do this.

I just did a 15 gallon water change, I run WM Biopellets, ROX carbon, GFO, Eshopps S-120 skimmer, Radion G2; I have 3 clownfish, all around 1";
My parametres are:
Salinity: 1.025 (refractometer calibrated using 2 different solutions)
Nitrate: 2-5 (Salifert)
Alk: 7.7 (Salifert) I've been testing for the past week to set up dosing.
Calcium 470 (Salifert) I have not dosed Cal, not sure why it's this high.
Mag (No test) I need to order a new kit.
Phos ~.15 (Hanna) I tested 4 times .09, .14, .15, and .16

Sorry for the late reply. All I'm doing right now are water changes. Tanks seems stable at this movement, but its still too soon to tell. I used to run carbon and PO4X4, but replacing them seemed to have negative effects, so I have stopped both at this point. Also, I no longer add coral foods, just fish.

[kittyworm]

I have had some luck battling STN, not RTN, by immediatly raising my alk level 1 point over 24 hrs. I know this seems risky but it is the only thing that has worked at all for me. I normally keep it at 8.5. The corals seem to be able to handle an up-spike fairly well but not a downward spike for me anyway. I dont dose anything other than 2-part and fish food. Then I lower it back down slowly over days as I watch for coral reaction.I have only saved a single RTN'ing coral by doing a super glue band above the necrosis line. Just my experience for what it's worth, good luck.

I dont know why, but everytime I tries to raise KH above 8 it results in tissue burn, when Kh falls back to around 7 tissue burn stops. Does it have anything to do with zeo products I was using?

[trueblackpercula]

I was told that when running a zeo tank you should be at or as close to 7. Has something to do with carbon dosing.

[epicurus84]

Imho stray voltage both for corals and humans is kinda anoying.

I think this cheap piece of equipement: http://www.amazon.com/RV2735-Rid-Volt-Titanium-Grounding-Probe/dp/B0002DGSWE

is really nice to have. A titanium grounding pin. (i would use a different electricity group just to be sure).

[kittyworm]

Sorry for the late reply. All I'm doing right now are water changes. Tanks seems stable at this movement, but its still too soon to tell. I used to run carbon and PO4X4, but replacing them seemed to have negative effects, so I have stopped both at this point. Also, I no longer add coral foods, just fish.

Scratch what I said before, lost another stag right after my post. Parts of the skeleton turned green like the stag I lost just before... nasty.

[kittyworm]

I was told that when running a zeo tank you should be at or as close to 7. Has something to do with carbon dosing.

Ah, that explains it. Thanks.

[kittyworm]

Imho stray voltage both for corals and humans is kinda anoying.

I think this cheap piece of equipement: http://www.amazon.com/RV2735-Rid-Volt-Titanium-Grounding-Probe/dp/B0002DGSWE

is really nice to have. A titanium grounding pin. (i would use a different electricity group just to be sure).

Looks like a nice thing to have.

[Piper27]

You wet skim 10 gallons every week? On a 100 gallon tank?

[ThaBeast]

I dont know why, but everytime I tries to raise KH above 8 it results in tissue burn, when Kh falls back to around 7 tissue burn stops. Does it have anything to do with zeo products I was using?

It is due to lack of nutrients, ulns tanks should be kept 7-8 dkh. I think zeo says 6.5-7.5.

[1000_smiles]

Wondering how you are getting along. Were you able to control the tissue loss through water changes?

[Piper27]

I am also wondering what's up. I think the topic of bacterial infections needs to be talked about more. I will be upset if this thread fades away.

My coral is still slowly dying one by one at a pace of one a week also.

Still wondering if you really skim that much too.

[Psionicdragon]

I believe its normal as I had received wild colonies that exhibit the similar marking. Its bad when its black though.

[LawmanRob]

My RTN issue has come to a stop. I removed my biopellet and ROX carbon reactors offline, I'm not sure if they played a role in my RTN issue.

[rigleautomotive]

My RTN issue has come to a stop. I removed my biopellet and ROX carbon reactors offline, I'm not sure if they played a role in my RTN issue.

They most likely did in my opinion. I see this often when bacteria and carbon dosing is discontinued in meltdown situations. Pellets are in the same category and manipulate bacteria and carbon also. It would make sense if you removed a nutrient source the bad bacteria needed and the disease reversed. RTN and STN rarely stop on there own but when action is taken, you at least have a chance.

[rigleautomotive]

Dan, thank you for sharing your experience. I was wondering, if there is a coral affected by this bad bacteria, is it a bad idea to introduce it to another separate system? Obviously there would be no carbon dosing or any other reasons for the corals problems in this new tank, so would that be a good idea? Is there a risk on passing on this bad bacteria?

I have had the same experience of rtn, (except without the pink lines, which I am not fimilar with...) but in my case it may have been a few other different issues that started the rtn. All were different than the original poster but same results.

Kittyworm, where do the corals start to rtn from and how long did they take to die completely?

Yes, it is a bad idea unless you move suspected coral into a quarantine system until health is restored. Bacteria by the very nature of the organism lives to spread. Limiting factors are food and space so when you toss a few cells into a fresh system, if the nutrients are available and a substrate they like is available, they will spread. Some coral disease that is thought to be caused by bacteria is very species specific and this is true even in the wild. This is why you will see mass bleaching events on one species or genus and the rest of the reef in good health. Some are not very specific and will eat any fleshy coral tissue they land on. I am learning more about coral disease daily but not even the scientists that write the studies I read have definitive answers. many good theories though . The jelly and slime is a indicator but can be absent or only occur in the dark photoperiod and while light are off, invisible at times. The bare skeleton is what is usually first recognized.

One thing that I have found is that most of the diseases I have encountered with stoney corals do not like high ph and/or tanks that use limewater. I believe the bacteria has a harder time thriving if ph is kept in the 8.3 to 8.4 range and not allowed to fall very much. Elevated ph and/or the use of limewater seems to not nurture the environment for this to occur. The other common thread being liquid foods and pro biotics

[rigleautomotive]

quick side question. do you dose Organic carbon of any type at all ?

my Idea behind dosing bacteria strains once in a while is to basically make sure its them taking up C and N and P, and not some pest or flesh eating bacteria ... but I like your logic alot too, so just wanted to know if you dose organic carbon or not .

thanks

No, I do not manipulate bacteria in any way anymore. I have several times for a year or less and then returned to my old standard that NEVER let me down. Each instance I experienced STN or RTN even following the strict zeo guidelines of proper mineral balance and lower then NSW alkalinity. (Brightwells,prodibo,and vodka were also used with no positive results in the long term)This is nothing new but more new for the US. The Germans have been playing roulette with bacteria and carbon for some time.As did a few other countries also.

Adding some REAL live rock to the system periodically would be my advise to keep the natural balance of bacteria in tact.There is nothing in a bottle that can do this as well in my experience. The sponges, microbial life and bacteria inoculation you receive is what I believe to be a better idea in your case .

[kittyworm]

You wet skim 10 gallons every week? On a 100 gallon tank?

Sorry for the late reply, I've really been busy at work lately.

I do wet skim about 10 gallons of water every week. Skimmer's collection cup is collected to a bucket to see how much water is drained and I replace it with clean mixed salt water everyday. I also feed a lot before RTN started.

[kittyworm]

It is due to lack of nutrients, ulns tanks should be kept 7-8 dkh. I think zeo says 6.5-7.5.

I see, thanks.

[kittyworm]

Wondering how you are getting along. Were you able to control the tissue loss through water changes?

Just lost a mille today. pink bone. still no idea how to stop it.

[kittyworm]

My RTN issue has come to a stop. I removed my biopellet and ROX carbon reactors offline, I'm not sure if they played a role in my RTN issue.

Congradulations~

[kittyworm]

Well a little update on the current status:

RTN is still continuing...

I noticed that almost all of the effected corals are of "Australia" origin at least thats what the vendors told me when I bought them. Not sure if it has any relationship to RTN as they are collected at different time points and some of them has been with me for over a year.

Also I have discovered redbugs in the system which I got rid off with Milbemycin Oxime. But it did not stop RTN so I guess it might not be directly related.

[trueblackpercula]

Well a little update on the current status:

RTN is still continuing...

I noticed that almost all of the effected corals are of "Australia" origin at least thats what the vendors told me when I bought them. Not sure if it has any relationship to RTN as they are collected at different time points and some of them has been with me for over a year.

Also I have discovered redbugs in the system which I got rid off with Milbemycin Oxime. But it did not stop RTN so I guess it might not be directly related.

Sound to me you have a lot going on and your Sps are really stressed out. At this point water changes are a safe bet and you should do this until you see progress. Also take a look at what fish you may have to ensure that they are not picking on them. How stable is your water? Are you having and alk swings? Please post your water numbers. Are you using bio pellets, phosphate removers or carbon dosing? How long is the tank set up? Have you checked for aefw?

Get back to us

[trueblackpercula]

My RTN issue has come to a stop. I removed my biopellet and ROX carbon reactors offline, I'm not sure if they played a role in my RTN issue.

Congrats hope your system has stablized.

[1000_smiles]

One thing that I have found is that most of the diseases I have encountered with stoney corals do not like high ph and/or tanks that use limewater. I believe the bacteria has a harder time thriving if ph is kept in the 8.3 to 8.4 range and not allowed to fall very much. Elevated ph and/or the use of limewater seems to not nurture the environment for this to occur.

Dan mentioned limewater a couple of times, might be worth trying to stabilize your pH at night and keep it from dropping. Need to watch your alk and ca dosing though. Good luck.

[kittyworm]

Sound to me you have a lot going on and your Sps are really stressed out. At this point water changes are a safe bet and you should do this until you see progress. Also take a look at what fish you may have to ensure that they are not picking on them. How stable is your water? Are you having and alk swings? Please post your water numbers. Are you using bio pellets, phosphate removers or carbon dosing? How long is the tank set up? Have you checked for aefw?

Get back to us

I was just away on a business trip for a couple of days and the dosing pump melfunctioned...
before I left, the parameters were:
Kh 7.5-8 Mg 1350, Ca 400. NO3 transparent (salifert). PO4 0.02 (hanna)
when I got back from trip:
Kh is about 5, Mg 1280, Ca 350. NO3 and PO4 around the same.

I'm slowly trying to bring parameters back to normal. Good thing is that nothing was lost during this time. only one coral's color faded.

Fish I have are: 3 small tangs, 1 flame angel that never pick on coral. 1 mandarin, 4 clown fish, 3 firefish,1 lawnmover and a group of yellowstripe cardinals. As for removers, I stopped everything except for PO4X4.
No aefw.

I also changed filters on the RODI units TDS was 011 before and 001 now.

Havent done anything else besides water change at this movement.

[kittyworm]

Dan mentioned limewater a couple of times, might be worth trying to stabilize your pH at night and keep it from dropping. Need to watch your alk and ca dosing though. Good luck.

Thanks. Just curious, does alk swing have anything to do with the tank being located in the balcony? Is 0.5 difference in kh b/w day and night considered high alk swing?

[1000_smiles]

Don't know about the tank being on a balcony causing an alk swing, I remember reading about ambient CO2 in the air affecting aquariums.

I think a 0.5 daily swing in alk is on the high side, I test at the same time each day so I don't really know what happens on the other side (maybe I should check that). Keep in mind that the resolution of the Salifert test kit is about 0.3 dKh (I think).

That said, I was talking about your pH.

Good Luck

[ThaBeast]

Co2 in air primarily affects ph

[Allmost]

No, I do not manipulate bacteria in any way anymore. I have several times for a year or less and then returned to my old standard that NEVER let me down. Each instance I experienced STN or RTN even following the strict zeo guidelines of proper mineral balance and lower then NSW alkalinity. (Brightwells,prodibo,and vodka were also used with no positive results in the long term)This is nothing new but more new for the US. The Germans have been playing roulette with bacteria and carbon for some time.As did a few other countries also.

Adding some REAL live rock to the system periodically would be my advise to keep the natural balance of bacteria in tact.There is nothing in a bottle that can do this as well in my experience. The sponges, microbial life and bacteria inoculation you receive is what I believe to be a better idea in your case .

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Dan :)