Potassium levels

[Scoobysnack77]

Where should i keep my potassium levels to color my sps's a bit better? All my other levels are in range and i kno my lighting and flow is good.

[blanden.adam]

Potassium is one of those trace elements that almost no one tests for and is usually taken care of with water changes. What makes you think your potassium is off and why it would be related to poor coloration of your sps?

[Tinpanva]

I also bought a Red Sea Pro test kit that tests for Potassium Iodine & Iron trying to see if I was missing some trace element for better coral colorization. I don't dose for any of the above, just pick up my trace elements via water changes. Using a good quality salt improved the trace readings but didn't do a thing for my colorization, for me I think I'm using too much light, so I've started cutting back. As I understand it, dosing those trace elements is risky and could adversely affect the tank very easily. Just rely on water changes.

[Allmost]

Hello,

K+, potassium should be at 390-400 PPM.

Use The new Salifert test, its accurate and easy to use.

Potassium is NOT A TRACE element, its one of the main elements in seawater, like Calcium.

low concentration of K+, can result in Dull coloration of SPS corals [examples would be dull color on orange monti cap], loss of PE on some corals like hystix, and very low concentration can lead to tissue loss.

There are no good effects of raising K+ over 400 PPM. and sudden increase in K+ concentration over 400 PPM will result in burned tips, and hair algae growth !

HTH,

[Tinpanva]

My K is reading 416, I thought 380 was the target? Not sure where I read that tho.

[Allmost]

well 398 to be exact, according to Randy's article.

from one of Randy's posts on here :
No life without potassium! For potassium...
• is for all organisms an essentieller material
• the most frequent Cat ion in cells
•becomes necessarily for the forwarding of nerve impulses, for the muscle contraction and for protein syntheses
• is regulated the cell
osmosis and the water household
• is the Antagonist to sodium

[blanden.adam]

Hello,

K+, potassium should be at 390-400 PPM.

Use The new Salifert test, its accurate and easy to use.

Potassium is NOT A TRACE element, its one of the main elements in seawater, like Calcium.

low concentration of K+, can result in Dull coloration of SPS corals [examples would be dull color on orange monti cap], loss of PE on some corals like hystix, and very low concentration can lead to tissue loss.

There are no good effects of raising K+ over 400 PPM. and sudden increase in K+ concentration over 400 PPM will result in burned tips, and hair algae growth !

HTH,

I should be more careful with my words. Potassium is not "trace" in the sense that it is extremely low in concentration you are correct. But the difference is potassium is not consumed on the level calcium is, and as such is usually taken care of by water changes. Yes, potassium is required for all life, but that is true for many things, even things we try to keep very low in reef aquariums, like phosphate :)

I also am skeptical of the assertion that raising potassium will encourage hair algae growth. Do you have a reference for that claim?

[Mattewell]

So anyone who knows anything about fertilizer will tell you that there are three main components to plant fertilizer; Nitrate, Phosphate, and Potassium. aka (NPK)

I am confused why reefers don’t focus more on potassium especially if they are growing macro algae. Can anyone give any response as to why we don’t care so much about Potassium in reef tanks? Why don’t we test for it? When growing plants, it’s pretty important....

[Tinpanva]

I can tell you at 416 I have zero hair algae. Great coralline tho.

[blanden.adam]

So anyone who knows anything about fertilizer will tell you that there are three main components to plant fertilizer; Nitrate, Phosphate, and Potassium. aka (NPK)

I am confused why reefers don’t focus more on potassium especially if they are growing macro algae. Can anyone give any response as to why we don’t care so much about Potassium in reef tanks? Why don’t we test for it? When growing plants, it’s pretty important....

Just because potassium is normally not a limiting nutrient, and the amount present in the water and provided by water changes (and I suppose also from food) is usually sufficient to keep the level where it needs to be.

I have heard anecdotal reports from the ATS people about potassium potentially being a potential limiting for their systems and that they needed to look into it further, but I have no idea where that ended up.

[Allmost]

I should be more careful with my words. Potassium is not "trace" in the sense that it is extremely low in concentration you are correct. But the difference is potassium is not consumed on the level calcium is, and as such is usually taken care of by water changes. Yes, potassium is required for all life, but that is true for many things, even things we try to keep very low in reef aquariums, like phosphate :)

I also am skeptical of the assertion that raising potassium will encourage hair algae growth. Do you have a reference for that claim?

potassium is consumed alot in ULNS systems. the info for it are all over the internet for you to search and find out :)

I do not have scientific proof, I have over 10 years of experience with it :)

[Allmost]

I can tell you at 416 I have zero hair algae. Great coralline tho.

416PPM is 4% increase in K+ levels, that is most likely due to testing error. please check the error margin on the test kit you are using :)

[Allmost]

Just because potassium is normally not a limiting nutrient, and the amount present in the water and provided by water changes (and I suppose also from food) is usually sufficient to keep the level where it needs to be.

I have heard anecdotal reports from the ATS people about potassium potentially being a potential limiting for their systems and that they needed to look into it further, but I have no idea where that ended up.

you are correct on this, potassium does not get depleted in most systems, and for sure not in systems that are filtered using a Fuge or macro algae growth.

but in ULNS systems, specially with Zeoliths, it does get depleted. if you read the post where I qouted randy it would make some sense, K+ used in cell of bacteria we grow bacteria and remove them ....

I currently dose KCL daily to my system. I run a Zeovit tank though.

of course, some pics so you dont think i am just saying these :)

from some time ago. but should do.
http://i1340.photobucket.com/albums/o735/voipa-z/Reef0165_zps9dc6bfff.jpg (http://s1340.photobucket.com/user/voipa-z/media/Reef0165_zps9dc6bfff.jpg.html)

http://i1340.photobucket.com/albums/o735/voipa-z/Reef0153_zpsebbfe9ed.jpg (http://s1340.photobucket.com/user/voipa-z/media/Reef0153_zpsebbfe9ed.jpg.html)

[blanden.adam]

you are correct on this, potassium does not get depleted in most systems, and for sure not in systems that are filtered using a Fuge or macro algae growth.

but in ULNS systems, specially with Zeoliths, it does get depleted. if you read the post where I qouted randy it would make some sense, K+ used in cell of bacteria we grow bacteria and remove them ....

I currently dose KCL daily to my system. I run a Zeovit tank though.

of course, some pics so you dont think i am just saying these :)

from some time ago. but should do.
http://i1340.photobucket.com/albums/o735/voipa-z/Reef0165_zps9dc6bfff.jpg (http://s1340.photobucket.com/user/voipa-z/media/Reef0165_zps9dc6bfff.jpg.html)

http://i1340.photobucket.com/albums/o735/voipa-z/Reef0153_zpsebbfe9ed.jpg (http://s1340.photobucket.com/user/voipa-z/media/Reef0153_zpsebbfe9ed.jpg.html)

Great tank! I don't know or pretend to know anything except the very broad strokes about zeoVit systems, so any and all comments I make can be assumed to say, "... except perhaps in zeoVit systems, you'll have to ask them about that." :beer:

[Allmost]

really dont know neither ... only ppl running ULNS tanks, specially with Zeoliths need to dose K+. but then Habib From Salifert did an experiment, and showed that Zeoliths dont remove K+ ... so ... Fauna marine Ultralith, NeoZeo and Zeovit use Zeolith Stones. perhaps the "greater" population of bacteria in these systems cause it ... not sure. but an interesting topic for sure.

[reefgeezer]

I carbon dose with vinegar and a little aspartic acid. I do 10 gallon weekly water changes with Kent salt and run GFO. My tank is ULNS but I don't use Zeo products... yet! I tested potassium and found it to be less than 300 ppm using a Salifert kit. I raised it slowly to about 380 ppm with potassium chloride. I add a little to my water change water now to maintain the level. I don't have to add very much on a weekly basis. I think potassium is slowly depleted somehow in ULNS systems, but I don't know how. Maybe it is bound in the organics consumed by the bacteria. I don't think it's something that is rapidly depleted like calcium, but IMO may eventually become low. Anyway, a few weeks after raising the level the color of some of my SPS, particularly Red & Orange Monti's, is noticeably darker and more intense.

[Scoobysnack77]

well my coral supplier doses potassium in his system which is the only thing he says he doses. everything else is covered by water changes. he said that potassium is used up very quickly and is rarely tested for. the color of his corals are amazing and when they got here they were as well. they just faded a bit. not much though. im going to test today to see where my levels of potassium are, if theyre ok ill leave it be. but i didnt kno what a good level of potassium was to compare with my test results

[Scoobysnack77]

thanx, thats what i heard from a few people with amazing SPS. im gonna test using a salifert testing kit to see where i am. thanx

[disc1]

I don't add any potassium to my tank, but I'll throw this into the discussion.

Potassium doesn't get consumed or used up in our tanks. Potassium doesn't form any insoluble salts and it doesn't make covalent bonds. Cells keep shuffling the same potassium ions around and around, but the potassium never ever disappears.

If potassium levels are going down in the tank, then look for places where it is being exported. Are you removing a bunch of bacteria from the water with all the potassium in their cells? Harvesting a bunch of macro? These are the only ways that the overall amount of potassium in the tank is going to go down.

[Allmost]

perfect wording David :)

the carbon dosing systems, or bacterioplankton, work as you described and I mentioned above ... grow huge population of bacteria [still lower concentration than the ocean (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature)] and have them in turn removed via skimming, water changes, or sponge/corals consumption.

now this is going to generate some debate .... but thats why the becket KZ skimmer was made ... to remove less potassium from water, and I know of friends who I can trust experiencing it ... perhaps the bubble size/flow selects, bonds, and removes different bacteria strains.

[bertoni]

There hasn't been a particularly useful potassium kit for a long time. Some of the newer kits might be okay. It'd be interesting to run some measurements to see what actually happens in our tanks. I'm not convinced that potassium generally is an issue with a tank that gets water changes.

[reefgeezer]

...now this is going to generate some debate .... but thats why the becket KZ skimmer was made ... to remove less potassium from water...

I will stipulate that the Zeo stuff produces great results for some and have been supportive of statements concerning the method and its additives recently. I'm all for accepting that I don't need to know exactly how the Zeo stuff works, but a "special skimmer" is hard to accept. Are you saying that the KZ skimmer selects for a particular strain of bacteria that consumes only organics that somehow don't bind potassium? Gotta' call BS here.

[ridetheducati]

[QUOTE=Allmost;21804457]...now this is going to generate some debate .... but thats why the becket KZ skimmer was made ... to remove less potassium from water...QUOTE]

I will stipulate that the Zeo stuff produces great results for some and have been supportive of statements concerning the method and its additives recently. I'm all for accepting that I don't need to know exactly how the Zeo stuff works, but a "special skimmer" is hard to accept. Are you saying that the KZ skimmer selects for a particular strain of bacteria that consumes only organics that somehow don't bind potassium? Gotta' call BS here.

To clarify, he is saying the Beckett method of skimming has been known not to remove the "particulates", and I use the term loosely that may lower K levels. Some hobbyist running an ULNS and pinwheel/mesh skimmer have reported K levels declining over a period of time.

[Allmost]

[QUOTE=Allmost;21804457]...now this is going to generate some debate .... but thats why the becket KZ skimmer was made ... to remove less potassium from water...QUOTE]

I will stipulate that the Zeo stuff produces great results for some and have been supportive of statements concerning the method and its additives recently. I'm all for accepting that I don't need to know exactly how the Zeo stuff works, but a "special skimmer" is hard to accept. Are you saying that the KZ skimmer selects for a particular strain of bacteria that consumes only organics that somehow don't bind potassium? Gotta' call BS here.

I am not going to write down how a skimmer works, and then prove anything here. thats beyond this thread.[and my understanding to be honest :)] But ....

do you know how a skimmer works ? do you know how a skimmer removes organics ? do you know what effects removal of organics, and bacteria in a skimmers chamber ? what are the factors that effect a skimmers performance ?

well those are answered in the articles, specially one by Stephen Spotte ...

no, I am not saying that KZ skimmer, will intelligently select and remove some bacteria, and let the other ones through ... LOL thats just funny.

there are 2 ways of making "bubbles" for a skimmer currently, one is the needle wheel [mesh wheel in same group] and other is becket.

they produce different size bubbles, air flow and water flow and so on ...

when you read the articles about skimmer, you will see that bubbles, air flow and waterflow effect skimmate ! interesting ?

now consider following quotes :
Film collapse and accompanying particle formation in nature may be a part of a process that, in some areas, removes filter-passing surface-active material from water and precipitates it as particles back into the water column. Such particles tend to sink and could provide particulate food to organisms in the surface waters and perhaps at greater depths from Wheeler article

If the foam is not removed properly the foam will collapse and the skins will appear as flocs in the water (Johnson et al, 19 86). These skins can act as substrates for further aggregation of suspended matter. This explains the increase in filterable material that is sometimes observed in systems that use foam fractionation (Wickins and Helm, 19 81). FRom Toore article.

and more from the articles I will link at the bottom ...



now .... consider these facts :
- ULNS systems seem to deplete K+.
- ULNS systems with becket skimmer, remove far less K+.
- ULNS systems with needle wheel tend to remove more K+.
- lastly, changing skimmer to a becket, lowers consumption of K+.

what does the 4 facts mentioned above tell you ? what can you conclude from them ?

I Personally, made the conclusion that becket skimmers, remove less K+. Thomas Pohl did too, made his own skimmer line, based on the OLD becket [becket is nothing new ... water fountains all have it]

I know, when you think of "KZ skimmer selects what to remove" you want to call it BS ... but when you think about it a bit more in dept, you see that its possible that this KIND of skimmers, might be more friendly on some bacteria, or ...

here are some skimmer link I have here
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0144860903000827
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic52254-9-1.aspx
http://rosmarus.com/Download/WaterTheory.pdf

[reefgeezer]

[QUOTE=reefgeezer;21804637]...now .... consider these facts :
- ULNS systems seem to deplete K+.
- ULNS systems with becket skimmer, remove far less K+.
- ULNS systems with needle wheel tend to remove more K+.
- lastly, changing skimmer to a becket, lowers consumption of K+.

I do appreciate the back and forth, so don't misread me, but more BS. I won't argue that Phol doesn't have some great ideas, but this ain't one. I must have a different understanding of "facts". There seems to be little that is factual about the facts you listed. They are more like observations made with a predetermined conclusion.

I know how a skimmer works. I won't buy that "how" the bubbles are made makes any difference in the type of organics removed - maybe the amount but not the type. I think I'd rather just add potassium. It's cheap.

I'm afraid we've stolen the thread so I won't comment further. You can have the last word or I'd gladly participate in a new thread.

[Allmost]

I know how a skimmer works. I won't buy that "how" the bubbles are made makes any difference in the type of organics removed - maybe the amount but not the type. I think I'd rather just add potassium. It's cheap.


well I am not here to sell you anything for u to buy the scientific PAPERS or not ;) you decided to not read them, and just comment based on your feelings. well I am not here to talk about your feelings. so no need for a new thread ;)


but I think you are being offensive ... I am educating you, not selling you a skimmer ! its very offensive to say "I rather dose potassium ... " why should I care what u do ?

lastly. consider this situation, you test K+ at day 1, you then test K+ at day 10, the reading of day 10, is lower.
FACT about the situation : K+ was lowered.

thats a fact, not observation ...

wow ... I am very offended by you ... what is with this BS this BS that ? why join a public forum, if your gonna go around calling ppl BS ? what you are saying is the largest BS of this whole thread !

[Allmost]

I must have a different understanding of "facts". There seems to be little that is factual about the facts you listed.

I really like to know, what you conclude, when you test KH today and its 7, and test tomorrow and its 5 ?

what is your conclusion if you are in that situation ?

its People like you, who make actual reefers not comment here. I really hope you get dealt with.

[ridetheducati]

You can lead a horse to water...

... does the horse know its water?

[bertoni]

Okay, this thread has run its course.