RGComplete...stand alone until after meta?

[Ron Popeil]

how well does RGComplete hold up providing all the nutrition rotifers need for feeding fry until they make it past metamorphosis?

are utilizing iso, nanno and tetra necessary in addition?

[D-Nak]

I only used RGC then switched to TDO without any issues. I did have a few culls, but I don't blame the food.

[GreshamH]

RGcomplete is built of RotiGrow Plus. There is a large volume of data on this feed, its one of our most popular rotifer feeds.

http://www.reedmariculture.com/product_rotigrow_plus.php (click on the Technical Information tab)

For clownfish, using RGcomplete there is no need for enrichment.

FWIW nanno is not an enrichment phyto.

[Ron Popeil]

thanks for the input gresham, can you clarify what you mean by nanno is not an enrichment phyto?

typically i see people grow isocrysis, tetraselmis and nannochloropsis as their rotifer feed phyto. as of late i read of many who are only growing nanno as the sole source of phyto for their rotifers.

[GreshamH]

Nanno is a great rotifer bulk feed, but has very little in the way of a balanced fatty acid profile. It has a good amount of EPA, but not much of anything else. Its lacks EPA, which is needed. So, if using nanno for a rotifer feed, you need to be enriching your rotifers. If those who only use nanno would do that, they'd have greater success with less culling needed.

[Ron Popeil]

there are three enrichment products on the reeds website: N Rich High Pro, PL Plus, Ultra PL.

I imagine using the PL Plus or Ultra PL would be the best products to use for my purposes?

[GreshamH]

There are 4 actually, Rotigrow Plus is listed on the page as well.

http://reedmariculture.com/product_n_rich.php

If you are takling about feeding RGcompelte or RotiGrow Plus then using an enrichment for clownfish, there is no need. I cannot recommend something that is not needed.

[Ron Popeil]

Good to know, thanks for the help Gresham!

[_shorty_]

Nanno is a great rotifer bulk feed, but has very little in the way of a balanced fatty acid profile. It has a good amount of EPA, but not much of anything else. Its lacks EPA, which is needed. So, if using nanno for a rotifer feed, you need to be enriching your rotifers. If those who only use nanno would do that, they'd have greater success with less culling needed.

I am brand new to all this, but was just reading from links in the sticky. They say that Nanno is low in DHA. But by far the highest HUFA which is most important and according to the author. So IF you're going to provide only one source, he claims that's a good one.

It makes sense that additional sources/nutrients that round out the diet would be a good thing.

According to each of those descriptions linked to: RotiGrow Plus seems to be best fit for supplimenting Nanno? High EPA, DHA, and ARA...

Even though I really know what NONE of these things are... it seems the other enrichment formulas high in HUFA would replace the nanno instead of compliment it as an enrichment. Is this correct?

[GreshamH]

I am brand new to all this, but was just reading from links in the sticky. They say that Nanno is low in DHA. But by far the highest HUFA which is most important and according to the author. So IF you're going to provide only one source, he claims that's a good one.

It makes sense that additional sources/nutrients that round out the diet would be a good thing.

According to each of those descriptions linked to: RotiGrow Plus seems to be best fit for supplimenting Nanno? High EPA, DHA, and ARA...

Even though I really know what NONE of these things are... it seems the other enrichment formulas high in HUFA would replace the nanno instead of compliment it as an enrichment. Is this correct?

I got stuck on your third sentence, I'm not sure what you are trying to say?

I will start off with, the sticky is rather dated. Our research goes well beyond the sticky.

Nanno only makes a good bulk feed but you'll need to enrich. RGComplete could be used to enrich, but IMO it's a waste to enrich when there is a superior feed that needs no enrichment. RGcomplete truly is the better of all our blends for what hobbyists need. The enrichment feeds are mainly used for specific species that need that specific profile (remember, our core business is aquaculture, not the marine ornamental hobby - so we're dealing with the culture of tons of species of fish, shellfish, etc). There is a misconception that nutritionally rotifers are what is in their stomach. From our research we've proved that wrong. What you feed them can indeed change their nutritional profile with an empty stomach. The profile is increased by whats in their stomach. So, feeds with poor profiles translate into rotifers with poor profiles that need to be enriched.

The enrichment feeds besides RGcomplete & RotiGrow Plus will give you lower numbers of rotifer production.

[_shorty_]

I got stuck on your third sentence, I'm not sure what you are trying to say?

I will start off with, the sticky is rather dated. Our research goes well beyond the sticky.

Nanno only makes a good bulk feed but you'll need to enrich. RGComplete could be used to enrich, but IMO it's a waste to enrich when there is a superior feed that needs no enrichment. RGcomplete truly is the better of all our blends for what hobbyists need. The enrichment feeds are mainly used for specific species that need that specific profile (remember, our core business is aquaculture, not the marine ornamental hobby - so we're dealing with the culture of tons of species of fish, shellfish, etc). There is a misconception that nutritionally rotifers are what is in their stomach. From our research we've proved that wrong. What you feed them can indeed change their nutritional profile with an empty stomach. The profile is increased by whats in their stomach. So, feeds with poor profiles translate into rotifers with poor profiles that need to be enriched.

The enrichment feeds besides RGcomplete & RotiGrow Plus will give you lower numbers of rotifer production.

Ive been researching all this for only a week now. I did not realize when I posted this that EPA, DHA, etc were types of HUFA. Lol.

At least I'm learning... So I'm not trying to hijack this thread, but in your opinion, what are the advantages is using products like RG over culturing your own phyto? If people successfully grow healthy clowns via feeding rots with a single culture such as nanno...
I'm assuming the effort in culturing the phyto is a big one..

But I'm struggling as I do my research to choose a method. Products like RG are easier, probably more balanced in HUFA distribution as well as other additions, but more costly. They will also contribute to dirtying the water and contributing to potential crashes if not careful.., where live phyto would not. I'd assume phyto being an algae would actually do the opposite. I guess you just have to be more careful with the non-living products? Pros and cons...

[_shorty_]

I was thinking more on this, and read your post again. As i realize you explain pretty good reasoning already. I guess where I struggle using the RG products is in the fry tank. My biggest concern with 'dirtying up' the water isnt necesarily in the rot cultures, but in the fry tank itself. Based on what you say, maybe the way to go (for me) would be to use the RG products in the rot cultures and live phyto in the fry tank... Maybe I'm over- thinking it, and should just start with the easier method to try it out and get a little experience...

[Ron Popeil]

i am on day 7 of using RGcomplete both in my rotifer cultures and fry tank. i am seeing no ill effects.

my rotifer cultures are flourishing as are the copepods that cohabitate in the grow out buckets. no ammonia, and with water changes every two to three days, i have very dense healthy populations. i also feed about 1 mL of selcon to my rotifer cultures every day.

in my fry tank, my fry are growing well, and i also do not have fouled water. i do a 50% water change every two days and feed phyto twice a day to this tank.

i have tried to grow phyto along side my use of RGcomplete, but have only been successful culturing nanno. so almost by default i am using solely the RGcomplete, but have been pleased with the results. im sure i will know more about how well it fed my fish after metamorphosis.

[_shorty_]

i am on day 7 of using RGcomplete both in my rotifer cultures and fry tank. i am seeing no ill effects.

my rotifer cultures are flourishing as are the copepods that cohabitate in the grow out buckets. no ammonia, and with water changes every two to three days, i have very dense healthy populations. i also feed about 1 mL of selcon to my rotifer cultures every day.

in my fry tank, my fry are growing well, and i also do not have fouled water. i do a 50% water change every two days and feed phyto twice a day to this tank.

i have tried to grow phyto along side my use of RGcomplete, but have only been successful culturing nanno. so almost by default i am using solely the RGcomplete, but have been pleased with the results. im sure i will know more about how well it fed my fish after metamorphosis.

Thank you for the input. So did you cycle your fry tank first?

[Ron Popeil]

no cycling.

i had three large sponge filters in the sump of my main display for a month before i started this process and use one in each fry tank (i only have one, but another one goes up wednesday). this dramatically helps with my ammonia and nitrite.

[Lou Young]

What day did you add the sponge filter to the fry tank?

[Ron Popeil]

i typically add my sponge filter on day one. but i think on my next nest i will try to add it on day two or three and see if anything improves.

[Lou Young]

Wow that sounds very early to add it. I thought most people wait until after meta to add a sponge filter. Have you noticed any different results doing this compared to those who wait until later to add the filter?

[_shorty_]

I have only researched all this and have no experience yet, I don't understand what the theory is behind waiting... Its purpose is to hold nitrifying bacteria which should be bennificial at any stage, right?

[NH Fish]

My thought is that it sucks the rotifers out of the water. I wait till about 10 dph

[Lou Young]

I have only researched all this and have no experience yet, I don't understand what the theory is behind waiting... Its purpose is to hold nitrifying bacteria which should be bennificial at any stage, right?

I would think that the sponge would suck in the rotifers and green water so maybe that's why everyone I have talked to and read about waits till closer to meta, but I am all for trying a new way if it helps.

[GreshamH]

While a household sponge sucks of water, a sponge filter doesn't really capture such small things as phytoplankton and rotifers. Rotifers in theory could get trapped inside with not enough food and pass on, but they also can get out again. We're talking about things that are small as a red blood cell to .14 millimeters in length. Pretty darn small stuff and aquarium sponge filters have very large pore sizes in comparison.

[GreshamH]

Ive been researching all this for only a week now. I did not realize when I posted this that EPA, DHA, etc were types of HUFA. Lol.

At least I'm learning... So I'm not trying to hijack this thread, but in your opinion, what are the advantages is using products like RG over culturing your own phyto? If people successfully grow healthy clowns via feeding rots with a single culture such as nanno...
I'm assuming the effort in culturing the phyto is a big one..

But I'm struggling as I do my research to choose a method. Products like RG are easier, probably more balanced in HUFA distribution as well as other additions, but more costly. They will also contribute to dirtying the water and contributing to potential crashes if not careful.., where live phyto would not. I'd assume phyto being an algae would actually do the opposite. I guess you just have to be more careful with the non-living products? Pros and cons...

Cons to live would be

pH swings
need to keep F2 media in the larval tank
uses up DO (dissolved oxygen)
time consuming (time is money)
Need to purchase F2 media
Need to split cultures
need to enrich

and some other points, but those are the ones to be concerned about.

Both non live and live are done the same way in terms of rotifer culture, IME, pretty vast here, non live is easier to maintain and you won't run out if your phyto cultures crash or get contaminated, and they will. even the best loose cultures.

The cost of a daily feeding of RGcomplete for a 1 million harvest rate is about $0.50 a day, or $3.50 a week (if you bought a 16oz bottle). Is your time worth more or less then that a week to maintain your cultures? Its not a question I can answer for you, but for me, my time is worth far more then that :)

Feel free to email us at techsupport@reedmariculture.com if you really want to get deep into this discussion.

[_shorty_]

Thanks for the reply. Good list of things to consider. I never considered needing f/2 in the rot culture, though. Rots will raise NH3, while algae will consumes NH3. And, not concerned much about algae reproducing much in the rot culture, only sustaining to be eaten.

However, you bring up a good point about the cost of time. I guess I had no real reference previously either on how long certain prepared foods might actually last.

When you specify 1 million harvest rate: does that mean when you pull out 25-30% of the culture (daily), you are pullling out ~1million rotifers? - and I'm assuming that number will vary based on all the varied parameters that affect production rates..?

I may take you up on that offer to email you for more discussion. ;) thanks.

[GreshamH]

I strongly disagree... nutrition is always a concern. Unless you are removing the F2 from the phyto culture (pretty hard for an average hobbyist to do) or growing to the true peak, there will be F2 in the culture tank.

Yes, if you are following the parameters and are getting good production, the feed conversion should be around what I listed and will land you a harvest rate of that. That is for our product, not algae in general.

[_shorty_]

I strongly disagree... nutrition is always a concern. Unless you are removing the F2 from the phyto culture (pretty hard for an average hobbyist to do) or growing to the true peak, there will be F2 in the culture tank.

Yes, if you are following the parameters and are getting good production, the feed conversion should be around what I listed and will land you a harvest rate of that. That is for our product, not algae in general.

OH!!! i mis-read your bullet point. For whatever reason I read it as you have to put f/2 IN the culture to keep the phyto alive. Man, I'm slow sometimes. Thanks for patience and clarification. :) That makes MUCH more sense. lol

[GreshamH]

I wrote that in a hurry, its not worded the best to say the least :lol: Thanks for sticking with me on it.

[michael grady]

Gresham..

Just a couple quick questions:

1. What is the shelf life (refrigerated) of the RGC complete?
2. If he RGC complete is frozen, does it loose any value?
3. Can you recommend a 'dose' for a typical 5 gallon bucket - harvesting rotis every day?
4. On the roti culture...by harvest, I typically pour about a gallon of roti water through one of your sieves. Should I be doing any sort of water change in the roti bucket??

Thanks!

Michael

[GreshamH]

I overheard one of our tech support team talking to you today so I assume this all has been answered?