Internal return for 300g

[hobbzz]

I'm setting up a 300g in a few weeks/months. I need a return pump that will put out about 1500-2000pgh after head loss. I'm thinking a vertical run of about 4-6ft and horizontal of about 13ft. 3-4 90 degree elbows, and 2 45's. Return will be in a fish room adjacent to the tank, but I would still like something that isn't crazy loud. I don't care if it's loud when you're next to it as long as I can't hear it through the wall. Mag 24 is the only thing that comes to mind that could do that kind of flow, but its 225w, and I'm not sure if I'd be ale to hear it through a wall.

If I have to go external, either due to lack of options or pricing being the same as an internal that large I will, so if anyone could recommend an external pump as well that would be great. I've tried searching, but when I narrow it down to returns for 300g it spits out hardly anything, and I don't have time to read through hundreds of threads just to find out the op is asking about a pump for a 90 gallon. Thanks in advance

[msderganc]

Have you considered two separate pumps for return? The redundancy is nice in case one has an issue...

[hobbzz]

Not really. I've read about it, however not really considered it. I'm also using the stock drains and overflow to do a modified bean animal. So I will use two holes for the drain that will be combined into a "T" before a gate valve, then one for the open channel and last one for an emergency. If I used two internal returns I'd need to connect them with a "Y" fitting and I'm not sure what that would do to the flow.

[hobbzz]

Anyone else?

[sirreal63]

Look at the Laguna's, more than enough power.
http://www.lagunaponds.com/lagunaeng/maxflopumps/maxflo.php?link=141
Head loss chart here...
http://www.azponds.com/laguna_maxflo_chart.htm

You will have about 8' of head with a 6' vertical, 13 horizontal, 4-90's, 2-45's, 1-ball valve and 2 unions. I figured it with 1-1/2" plumbing so a smaller will yield different results. It looks like the 2900 would do what you want and uses 130 watts.

[hobbzz]

Double post.

[hobbzz]

Thanks jack, never thought about those.

[sirreal63]

They are pretty quiet too. You can also find them pretty cheap on Amazon, just remove the large cage surrounding the pump. The motor block is actually widely used in the industry.

[azjohnny]

My vote goes for a Laguna Max Flo 2900. You will need to remove the pump from the cage and make some sort of stand and purchase a quick connect fitting.

I have the 1500 model for my 180, here is a link that has some info
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2211056

[hobbzz]

Thanks guys. 2900 it is

[sirreal63]

Be sure and use 1-1/2" plumbing, it makes a difference. 1-1/4" created a head of almost 9' and 1" is a head of almost 12'.

[hobbzz]

What if I used 1.5 up to as close to the tank as possible then split it into two 3/4" outlets? Or should I split into two 1" outlets? I'm still deciding whether or not to drill the back glass and just use locline, or do two sea swirls.

[Xrod]

What about a waterblaster 16500. That's what I have and am very happy. Believe me you don't need that much flow. Most flow should be given by some good powerheads.

[hobbzz]

This flow is for the turnover through the sump, not flow in the display. Turnover through the sump is generally recommended to be 5-10 times the amount of the display. My display will be 300 gallons, so flow through the sump should be about 1500-3000 gph. I always like to shoot for the lower end of that.

[hobbzz]

Look at the Laguna's, more than enough power.
http://www.lagunaponds.com/lagunaeng/maxflopumps/maxflo.php?link=141
Head loss chart here...
http://www.azponds.com/laguna_maxflo_chart.htm

You will have about 8' of head with a 6' vertical, 13 horizontal, 4-90's, 2-45's, 1-ball valve and 2 unions. I figured it with 1-1/2" plumbing so a smaller will yield different results. It looks like the 2900 would do what you want and uses 130 watts.

Jack, how did you do your calculations? I'd like to know for myself so I don't have to keep asking when I finally get my plumbing done. After looking at the chart you linked to it looks like I'd actually likely go with the 2400. I'd rather have it a little closer to 1500 than 2000. Thanks.

[msderganc]

The Reef Central Head Loss calc: http://www.reefcentral.com/index.php/head-loss-calculator

[sirreal63]

I have a little app that the RC one is based on, I downloaded it years ago. I don't mind helping out, it is what we should all be doing for each other.

As far as the return size in the tank, the larger the better, if keeping as much flow as you can is important. Because these are not pressure rated pumps, the necking down at any point has a bad effect on flow. I would run the 2900 with a gate valve to adjust flow, it will also be enough that you can run reactors off of it as well. This is assuming the drain system will be able to adequately handle the flow without issues.

[hobbzz]

sirreal63 - Thanks. Can you calculate what would happen if I added a "Y"? Or send me the app lol ;-) !

It will be a bean animal so I should be fine. I haven't looked into the hole size for the overflow drains yet but if memory serves correctly they're all 1". So I'll have two 1" drains running at full siphon. The limiting factor might be the overflows themselves. I might need to modify them, not sure yet as that's another thing on my list to look into. I think, somewhere along the way I remember someone saying the overflow walls couldn't handle much with the stock teeth and his desired return gph pushed the water level in the tank up enough to touch the supports.

msderganc - The RC calculator only works with specific pumps, and Lagunas aren't on the list. Thanks though.

[sirreal63]

I wish I could, it was originally installed under XP and the operating system has been updated over the years all the way Winderz 7, the installation executable is long gone.

You can use the RC calc to help determine the plumbing head loss, I just chose a Mag24 because it will be close, though not 100% accurate, which is why I said "about". :D The one I have is no different than the RC one, same app made by the same people but it is customizable, though I never added any pumps to it.

For tee's I add two more 90's and a wye is slightly better than a tee. Adding two more 90's only added a few inches to the head. If you haven't yet, go to the beananimal thread in the DIY area and post up your plans, either Bean or Uncle will run it up the flagpole. You are probably right about the level rising too high on the teeth, it is something that may be corrected depending on how the overflow is designed.

[hobbzz]

If that is the case I don't have any idea what I'd do. I could always remove them and drill the back for returns and a bean but that's a lot of drilling on an expensive tank.

[sirreal63]

Or you could not try and push that much water through the sump.

[TruReef]

If you decide to go with external, I have a Reeflo
Dart that will be going up for sale soon. It was a backup that never got used and is still shrink-wrapped in the box, never saw water... Let me know if you have any interest.

[viggen]

Yea... Zero need turning a tank over that much via the sump. My 475g fowlr I turn over about 3x a hr through the sump and with other pumps in the tank (vortec) the tank sees a additional 25-30x a hr turnover.

Many state 2-5x a hr turnover through the sump is all that's needed and you were shooting for a 5-7x rate

Those Laguna pumps are excellent and like mentioned water blaster pumps are also a good option. I would stay away from a mag pump

[hobbzz]

If you decide to go with external, I have a Reeflo
Dart that will be going up for sale soon. It was a backup that never got used and is still shrink-wrapped in the box, never saw water... Let me know if you have any interest.

Interest would depend on price. A new laguna is $150 and I doubt you'd want to sell for that little.

[hobbzz]

Yea... Zero need turning a tank over that much via the sump. My 475g fowlr I turn over about 3x a hr through the sump and with other pumps in the tank (vortec) the tank sees a additional 25-30x a hr turnover.

Many state 2-5x a hr turnover through the sump is all that's needed and you were shooting for a 5-7x rate

Those Laguna pumps are excellent and like mentioned water blaster pumps are also a good option. I would stay away from a mag pump

Last time I looked, years ago, everyone was saying 5-10 through the sump. If 2-3 has now been found to be sufficient, even better. I guess that would make it the 1500 or 2000.

[hobbzz]

Just did a quick search and the 1500 seems to be more than the 2000 and 2400? Why is that? Cheapest I could find it was $160.

[hobbzz]

What size pipe should I use for the 2000? 1.25?

[azjohnny]

Just did a quick search and the 1500 seems to be more than the 2000 and 2400? Why is that? Cheapest I could find it was $160.

I don't know why the 1500 would be more expensive, I bought mine for $100 off of Ebay. From time to time the prices change and depends on the vendor

[azjohnny]

Last time I looked, years ago, everyone was saying 5-10 through the sump. If 2-3 has now been found to be sufficient, even better. I guess that would make it the 1500 or 2000.

IMO you don't need more than 5X the DT or 20x the sumps actual water volume. Also depends on how much water your skimmer can process per hour, I like to keep that as close as possible to the water flow through the sump

[hobbzz]

Yeah I'm definitely going with the 1500 or 2000 throttled down.

[azjohnny]

I have my 1500 valved back about 50%

[hobbzz]

What kind of connection does the output have? Screw, barb?

[sirreal63]

It is a click fit, sort of like a barb but without the reduced I.D. Of a barb fitting. Check out the manual, it will help.
http://www.lagunaponds.com/lagunaeng/manuels/max_flow.pdf?link=1401
FWIW I would have chosen the 1500 as well.

[hobbzz]

Yeah it will just depend on which is cheaper at the time I go to get it. If it's the 2000 I can always use it to power some reactors and throw a gate valve on it.

What pipe diameter should I use for those pumps? I read everything I could on the site and even searched it with google and couldn't find any recommended pipe diameters for any of their pumps. Not even in the pdf.

[sirreal63]

I would stay with 1-1/2" to get the most out of it, there is no downside to using the larger pipe.

[hobbzz]

Can anyone confirm or deny that the 1500 is no longer being made and is being replace by the 1350? If that is the case, and considering the skimmer I will be getting uses that pump, I'd definitely get the 1500 asap. I saw that on a retailers site, can't remember where.

[sirreal63]

It would appear they are.
http://usa.hagen.com/Water-Gardening/Pumps/Solid-Handling?brand=Laguna

Head loss chart here...download the pdf.
http://usa.hagen.com/Laguna-PowerJet-and-Max-Flo-pumps

There is also the Fluval Sea pump which is basically the same pump but certified for saltwater use.
http://usa.hagen.com/Aquatic/Pumps/Circulation?brand=Fluval%2BSea

[msderganc]

msderganc - The RC calculator only works with specific pumps, and Lagunas aren't on the list. Thanks though.

Right, all you need to do is use it with any pump to get the head pressure based on your plumbing, then get the head loss chart for that pump to show its output.

[azjohnny]

if its any help I get about 1000gph after 6ft of head loss with my 1500/1350

[hobbzz]

The head pressure figure that the calculator spits out changes based on the pump you pick.

[Mike S]

What kind of connection does the output have? Screw, barb?

There is also a click fit fitting with a threaded male connection for a few of the pumps. I used to run a 1500 on my 120 and now run a 2400 on my 315. Amazon had the fittings for each of those pumps. I got both of my pumps off of eBay for a little cheaper than they were offered on amazon. I think the seller was pondgirl or something like that.

[hobbzz]

Thanks Mike.

[OCCOFNY]

+1 on Reeflo if you go external. Low power draw and solid. Had a Hammer Head Gold on my 500 display and it ran without a problem for 7 years before I had to change a seal. Good luck.

[bhsgk]

To those of you who upsize the return plumbing from your pumps:
How do you put the water back in the tank? Just a 90 elbow pointed into the tank or loc-line?

[BKMReef]

Newbie here...125 cornerflo..40 gallon sump...running a pond master 18 pump, with head height I'm pushing around 1350 gph. This too much? Tank has 180lbs of live rock and 120 pounds of live sand

[azjohnny]

Yes, valve the flow back. You will only need about 400-500 gph at the tank

[hobbzz]

Went with the 1500 (1350 gph) due to the need for less flow through sump. I usually run hose for the first foot or so before starting the hard piping in order to cut down on noise and vibration. But with this being so quiet, will I need to worry about that or could I just get the adapter and do pvc straight from the pump? It would make things much easier.

[hobbzz]

Went with the 1500 (1350 gph) due to the need for less flow through sump. I usually run hose for the first foot or so before starting the hard piping in order to cut down on noise and vibration. But with this being so quiet, will I need to worry about that or could I just get the adapter and do pvc straight from the pump? It would make things much easier.

Bump for answer

[leveldrummer]

Do PVC straight from pump if you have the space. use a union. if its quiet enough for you, no reason not to use hard pipe.

hose does give you a little room to play with position in the sump if thats osmething your intersted in.

[hobbzz]

I just didn't want to waste money on parts I don't need. After 13 years of doing that I have too much junk lol.

[azjohnny]

I used PVC for the entire build, but also bought the stand with rubber feet from So Cal Tropical and this made the pump vibration free. After the pump I installed 2 double union ball valves with a George Fisher Wye valve between the ball valves. This checkvalve can be taken apart and cleaned

http://socaltropicalfishoutlet.com/store/laguna-custom-stand-for-model-1500-p-1068.html

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/georg-fischer-wye-check-valve.html