From Radion Pros, AI Vegas, Now Kessils

[HurricaneSystem]

Ok,

So my journey began a few months back with the purchase of a new Ecoxotic Solana 25 gallon cube. It came with the Ecoxotic LED fixture. That fixture was around 8-10k I would say. I still have it with a mated pair of Black and White clowns in the upstairs bedroom.

I purchased a new 60 gallon cube to transfer livestock out of the 25 as it was too small. I had a 55 and moved, put everything in the 25 for a short while, then went to the 60.

I ordered a Ecotech Radion Pro and had it on the 25 cube for about 3 weeks. I switched it to the new 60 cube and started having a ton of trouble. It was all software related, couldn't program the lights, etc. etc. After a lot of frustration, it was returned.

The Radion Pro did very well as far as coral extension and spectrum. They have a great product physically, but their software is absolutely atrocious.

I then ordered 2, Aqua Illumination Color Vega fixtures and have those currently mounted. The fixtures are super easy to program with the extra controller. I also have the Beta Director box (which I am getting ready to sell) and it works perfect as well.

The Vega fixtures seem to be very good, but my coral extension and growth just isn't there. I have adjusted the spectrum, intensity, etc. and the coral isn't doing nearly as well as it was with the Radion Pro's. Why you might ask? I think I have narrowed it down to the UV.

Every LED I have owned that had UV LED's in the set up, the coral responded great. The ones that did not have UV, not so much.

As much as I love the AI Vega's and AI products in general, I am going to replace them tomorrow with the shipment of 2, A360 Kessil fixtures I ordered today. I am also going to put them on a new APEX to control the ramp up and down. I have experience with the 150 series of Kessils and they were nothing short of spectacular. I am positive the 360s will be even better.

So, the moral of this story? If you are having issues with your corals not doing well under LED's, then make sure they have UV's. I am convinced that the secret to LED coral sustainability, as well as growth, is the UV spectrum.

This may be known, but I haven't seen it stated in a lot of places. For all of you that are thinking about the "Chinese" fixtures and all of the other ones out there, don't do it unless they have UV leds. I am telling you.

In retrospect, I should have purchased the AI Hydra's. I was actually going to do that when I bought the Kessils, but I want to try the Kessils again.

The Hydra's have the UV leds and I am positive they will grow coral much better than the Vega series.

Just an FYI. I will post some pictures tonight of my tank with the Vega's currently. I have a new Canon 70D that takes amazing photos, so it should be an accurate representaton of the color.

Thoughts or comments on the Kessils? Oh, if you are wondering why I didn't go back to the Radion Pro's? I had a less than stellar experience with their customer service, over the course of a couple of weeks. However, my BRS experience was excellent.

[Nammy]

I'm using the Evergrown IT2080 Controllable Full Spectrum LED and according to the supplier they have 8 UV led per unit.

[gcarroll]

How long did you run the Vegas? It seems like you may be having adverse reactions to changing light spectrum. UV diodes have proven not to be necessary as there have been successful tanks with LED fixture that excluded that spectrum.

[Rarend99]

What kind of corals are you growing? Sps?

[Chronicj7]

How long did you run the Vegas? It seems like you may be having adverse reactions to changing light spectrum. UV diodes have proven not to be necessary as there have been successful tanks with LED fixture that excluded that spectrum.

I think the theory behind the whole UV vs non UV has to come with it being a bit more user friendly. Without it you have to really dial in the LED's to be successful. I think a lot of people who are trying LED's don't have many SPS in their tanks and/or have other issues with their water before switching. It's really a wide variable.

I noticed I lost color in about 60% of my SPS when I ran the AI SOL Blue's on my Zeovit tank.

[HurricaneSystem]

No, I don't think it is changing too quickly. There have been at least 2 months on the current Vega's I think. Here are some pictures that speak for themselves.

Radion Pro on the 25 Gallon

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/jason490/CD3A1026-B709-4A5F-ADB3-4B6C80D39F04-5039-00000193361AAC27_zps6dd2cf47.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/jason490/media/CD3A1026-B709-4A5F-ADB3-4B6C80D39F04-5039-00000193361AAC27_zps6dd2cf47.jpg.html)

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/jason490/33628957-ACF0-473B-BBC4-B0B1C5ABF275-4627-0000016FE4E993D3_zpsef43b109.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/jason490/media/33628957-ACF0-473B-BBC4-B0B1C5ABF275-4627-0000016FE4E993D3_zpsef43b109.jpg.html)


AI Vega on the 60 (Same Livestock) Taken tonight, lighting is dimming for the night, but not that dim.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/jason490/IMG_0102_zps37d38e3c.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/jason490/media/IMG_0102_zps37d38e3c.jpg.html)

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/jason490/IMG_0103_zpsfd8a172a.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/jason490/media/IMG_0103_zpsfd8a172a.jpg.html)

[Dapg8gt]

Could just be me but I doubt your issues are purely light.. Seems like other things are going on with overall health..

If your going for the top of the line led I think you had it in your first 2..IMO going to purely kessil you are going to be leaving some spectrum on the table. I personally don't own them but have seen a side by side on a 40 breeder over the course of a few months that a friend had that was running a MH 150w on one side and a kessil 150 on the other.. The sps after a few months looked blah and nothing compared to the halides on the other side. All pretty much the same corals also (was all sps and a few lps) wish I would have taken pics but needless to say the kessil got sold and he went back to halides w/T5...

I personally think they are great lights when supplemented with something else. I feel a lot of the guys selling kessil right now are thinking the same thing.. Thays all JmO as i never personally owned any leds other than a value fixture. So take it fwiw..

[HurricaneSystem]

Could be Dap,

Money is no object, so if they Kessils don't work, I will buy 2 more Radion Pros.

[dcmartinpc]

Have you thought at all about the GHL Mitras? A single Mitras covers a 60 cube perfectly and I think is the best led out today, it's expensive, but it is definitely worth it! I run one over my 60 cube and love it!!!

Don

[that Fish Guy]

I am looking forward to seeing how the Kessils do for you.

[Nammy]

Right, you're going to blame that on light! You have a bigger issue then lights.

[Morbeus]

Did you rule out penetration? Your second tank is a lot deeper than your first and the corals seemingly most affected are the "sleepy" looking ones at the bottom. Just an observation.

[nikon187]

scopas tang and a foxface in a 2 foot cube. Bio load is way too high, did you just transfer everything over, sand and all. looks like a mini cycle and not light related

[dkeller_nc]

From the standpoint of the Vegas, how exactly did you have the 7 channels adjusted? I have 2 of these mounted over a 50 gallon cube (24X24 area), and all corals (mostly SPS) are growing well.

That said, it took about a month for the corals to re-adjust to the changes in spectrum/intensity from the LFS that I frequent's acropora tank that's lit with 14k MH fixtures.

Also, I definitely found that running something on the order of 70% blues, 45% whites, and 70% reds and greens was a considerably better spectrum than setting all of the LEDs to the same intensity.

But - if money is no object, I'd encourage you to consider Pacific Sun's and ATI's approach of mixing LEDs with T5HOs. Doing so solves several problems - the fluorescents provide a very broad area lighting source that eliminates the hard shadows you can get with modular LED fixtures, and the huge number of T5HO spectral possibilities that the user can cheaply switch in and out would allow tests of all sorts of spectral mixes.

[vette.tech]

scopas tang and a foxface in a 2 foot cube. Bio load is way too high, did you just transfer everything over, sand and all. looks like a mini cycle and not light related

+1 I was gonna write the same thing

[BusterTB]

Looks like you had a bad tank transfer more than anything. I'm guessing you have a bio load issue given the lack of rock and amount of livestock present. How long has this system been running? Your coral looks pretty rough...like its on its way out.

Your new tank looks pretty deep, Vegas are not the best lighting option due to the wide optics. IMO you had it right the first time with a Radion Pro. I sold my Vega after 6mo and bought a Radion Pro and my coral (mostly sps) have never looked better.

[HurricaneSystem]

I wanted to give this just a day or two before I responded as I knew exactly what was wrong.

Bio load? Nah, no worries at all there. You want to see bio load, check out that 25 I had and I was only using the filtration that was built into the rear.

Mitras, I tried to buy one of those, it went from the guys in Florida trying to order from Canada, they were just too slow to respond. I tried to order a Pacific Sun overnight. I emailed them early Thursday morning and said I needed it by Saturday.........no response, nothing. So I would say their support isn't much better.

Called Marine Depot, order a new Apex, 2 new A360W Kessils, set them all up yesterday and within 24 hours, low and behold, the corals are coming back like gangbusters. Don't believe me? Here is a few pics. Just the overnight change says enough.

The AI's are just not coral growing fixtures. Someone said that the Vega's aren't made for deep tanks, you are totally wrong. They have no frosted lenses and say they penetrate better than any fixture they have.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/jason490/2013%20KESSIL%20September/IMG_0104_zps846e1167.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/jason490/media/2013%20KESSIL%20September/IMG_0104_zps846e1167.jpg.html)

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/jason490/2013%20KESSIL%20September/IMG_0107_zps158458aa.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/jason490/media/2013%20KESSIL%20September/IMG_0107_zps158458aa.jpg.html)

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/jason490/2013%20KESSIL%20September/IMG_0106_zpsb2a01f4f.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/jason490/media/2013%20KESSIL%20September/IMG_0106_zpsb2a01f4f.jpg.html)

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/jason490/2013%20KESSIL%20September/IMG_0109_zps1f9118c8.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/jason490/media/2013%20KESSIL%20September/IMG_0109_zps1f9118c8.jpg.html)

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/jason490/2013%20KESSIL%20September/IMG_0110_zps6b930993.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/jason490/media/2013%20KESSIL%20September/IMG_0110_zps6b930993.jpg.html)

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/jason490/2013%20KESSIL%20September/IMG_0111_zps6808c61d.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/jason490/media/2013%20KESSIL%20September/IMG_0111_zps6808c61d.jpg.html)

[Nammy]

I not even going to begin to comment!

[BusterTB]

Hope that works out for ya. Kessil makes a good light but I still think your issues run deeper than your light. Coral still doesn't look that good. BTW the AI Sol's or maybe now the Hydra 52 are the deepest penetrating lights that AI makes, but definitely not the Vegas.
I guess I'll check back in two days when you switch lights again and see how the GHL Mitras is working out

[zombiereefer]

wow smh

[lowscooby76]

i feel sick now :sad1::sad2:

[HurricaneSystem]

lol,

I understand your concern, I have been in this a long time. I know what I am doing. I will show you the tank again in a week and see what you think.:lolspin:

[scolley]

Subscribed.

Have been growing mostly SPS under LED for more than a couple of years now, with decent results, if slow growth. Though a recent upgrade to include significant UV (actually Violet, lest we describe the light incorrectly) has had a MAJOR increase in the rate of SPS growth. Though some LPS have seemed to be unhappy with the change.

Thanks for posting this frank info, and am anxious to see your continued observations. :thumbsup:

[asid61]

I thought the Kessils were just white+blue, but maybe I remembered wrong.
400-430nm leds are great for color and growth in corals, so while they're not necessary, they make for great lights.
The Hydra is pretty good, but I think the Radion Pros are better (the kind with 420nm).

On an unrelated note, why do you have a foxface and a filefish in such a tiny tank?

[BoricuaMojao]

I thought the Kessils were just white+blue, but maybe I remembered wrong.
400-430nm leds are great for color and growth in corals, so while they're not necessary, they make for great lights.
The Hydra is pretty good, but I think the Radion Pros are better (the kind with 420nm).

On an unrelated note, why do you have a foxface and a filefish in such a tiny tank?

O/T but exactly what jumped right out at me.

[dcmartinpc]

I agree with others that you have other issues outside of the lights. Any info on your filtration?

If you base the quality of a light or their customer support on how quickly a reseller can get you one, you are in for an awful ride. Sometimes production simply cant keep up with demand.

Patience is extremely important in this hobby and jumping around to different technologies so quickly gives you nowhere near the proper amount of time to evaluate any one of them.

Honestly not trying to be critical, only helpful. The Kessils are great lights and I hope they work out great for you.

Don

[HurricaneSystem]

Subscribed.

Have been growing mostly SPS under LED for more than a couple of years now, with decent results, if slow growth. Though a recent upgrade to include significant UV (actually Violet, lest we describe the light incorrectly) has had a MAJOR increase in the rate of SPS growth. Though some LPS have seemed to be unhappy with the change.

Thanks for posting this frank info, and am anxious to see your continued observations. :thumbsup:

Scolley,

Thanks for the comments. From my experience, UV makes an absolutely huge difference in growth, health, etc.

I have had that Foxface since he was an inch, the Filefish since he was smaller than that. The 60 cube is larger than you think, they have room.

From Kessil's webpage:

UV
No matter which spectral point is chosen with the tunable spectrum, proprietary blend of precision UV light encourages coral color.

The A360's do in fact have UV.

Regardless of what anyone thinks in this thread, don't make the mistake of NOT buying fixtures with UV. I am telling you, it makes a huge difference.

Dcmartin, no offense taken. I have been in the hobby for 20 years. I have a sump under the cube that is rated for 100 gallon. Yes, I am a user of bioballs, always have been, never had any issues.

[Boa1277]

If turnaround time determines customer service quality then you will probably never own one of the better LED fixtures out there. Both the Pacific Sun and the Mitras are much better lights than anything you have had in the past. The only light that even comes close is the Radion Pro. This is just my opinion I am sure others will agree and others will disagree. Then again I currently own a Kessil, a Radion Pro, and a Pacific Sun Pandora. I have heard nothing but great things regarding the Mitras but I can't speak from personal experience, like the other 3 lights. I tend to agree with the previous replies that there are a few more issues other than lighting with your current setup. Good luck!

[Aqualund]

I agree with you on the UV as a necessary component to a healthy SPS tank, but I have been growing every single coral you have in there under leds in the rb/cw 1:1 combo for two years now and I have never, never, never had a problem like yours.

If you continue to dismiss your issues as lighting alone you will be missing a great opportunity to learn something new. You have bigger issues than lighting.

[subzero101]

So will the Vegas be up for sale :) ?

[that Fish Guy]

Scolley,

Thanks for the comments. From my experience, UV makes an absolutely huge difference in growth, health, etc.

I have had that Foxface since he was an inch, the Filefish since he was smaller than that. The 60 cube is larger than you think, they have room.

From Kessil's webpage:

UV
No matter which spectral point is chosen with the tunable spectrum, proprietary blend of precision UV light encourages coral color.

The A360's do in fact have UV.

Regardless of what anyone thinks in this thread, don't make the mistake of NOT buying fixtures with UV. I am telling you, it makes a huge difference.

Dcmartin, no offense taken. I have been in the hobby for 20 years. I have a sump under the cube that is rated for 100 gallon. Yes, I am a user of bioballs, always have been, never had any issues.

Do the A150's have UV or is it just the more expensive A350'and A360?

[AcroporAddict]

Not sure how many times you have to hear it from the posters in this thread, but your issues run way deeper than lighting. You should have stuck with the Radion Pro. The first pic you posted makes all the other ones look sick.

And UV in LEDs is good for color/aesthetics, but it doesn't matter a bit for growth. I've had Radions over a 100 gallon mixed tank for almost two years, and I had great color and growth with the G1 (no UV), and just upgraded to the Pros with the UV, and all they do is provide a bit more glow from the corals at sunrise/sunset.

And finally, if you think you can give reliable feedback on all these led lights you are blaming your issues on, you are mistaken. You need at least 6 months use from any light to see what your real colors will be, not 2 weeks-2 months.

I hope newbies reading this thread take your posts for the unreliable source of info that it is.

[FlyPenFly]

Its not the lights dude. Coral farms have been growing colorful coral just fine on older RB/CW LEDs on an industrial scale without UV for years.

Any of the LED units you posted grow SPS just fine if you let your tank mature first and didn't overstock it. Go look at some TotM threads, great examples of older LEDs producing amazing SPS tanks.

[HurricaneSystem]

We shall see.

[ghostman]

If turnaround time determines customer service quality then you will probably never own one of the better LED fixtures out there. Both the Pacific Sun and the Mitras are much better lights than anything you have had in the past. The only light that even comes close is the Radion Pro. This is just my opinion I am sure others will agree and others will disagree. Then again I currently own a Kessil, a Radion Pro, and a Pacific Sun Pandora. I have heard nothing but great things regarding the Mitras but I can't speak from personal experience, like the other 3 lights. I tend to agree with the previous replies that there are a few more issues other than lighting with your current setup. Good luck!

I totally agree with everything. Pacific Sun and Mitras are the best available LEDs, but you just can't walk into any lfs and buy one. Radions look great, but the software is garbage. I waited a few weeks for my Pacific Suns, sometimes high end items things take time and patience, especially to ship from Germany.

This thread really confuses me as I agree 100% with the OP on some issues, and disagree 100% on others :) That is fine as we all have opinions of what works best for us. I find it odd to spend thousands on LED lighting, and still have bioballs. I have to agree with others that lighting is not the problem. The animals look stressed from overcrowding and most likely chemistry issues. Lighting in only one factor in a successful tank. None of the pics posted look like a successfully running reef. Sorry if that sounds negative.

[Nammy]

Troll

[firebirdude]

Looks like you had a bad tank transfer more than anything.
Right, you're going to blame that on light! You have a bigger issue then lights.

Exactly. Like others have said, your problem isn't the lights. I was with you until you posted pictures. The tank is completely devastated.

I built my first all LED fixture back in 2009. A lot has changed since then. But since then, I've done my share of watching corals fade in/out, color up/down, thrive/die under various LED setups. Believe me. Your problems run far beyond lighting. And in case nobody else has mentioned this, 2 months under new lighting isn't squat. You should be happy if the tank was back to normal after a move with all the same equipment in 2 months time. This hobby is slow and the environment can be pretty touchy sometimes.

[MrIcky]

Do the A150's have UV or is it just the more expensive A350'and A360?

Yes, the 150s have UV.

[HurricaneSystem]

All comments welcome. This was an experiment to see what kind of responses I would get.

I want to show pics of the tank after another 2 weeks. The tank is not devistated, nor are the corals dead. The tank also is not overcrowded. So thanks for the comments.

Looking forward to posting updated pics.

[Allentown]

As a newb who doesnt know shat i hat to ever say anything critical...but my leathers, torch etc looked way better than yours in my 120g with a Marineland reef ready LED over them!

I think you do have some other issues goin on with nutrient export, tank size, and livestock involved here.

My suggestion (and im and idiot) is to take advante of some of the additional features of that Apex you have on order to button down your tank, lose a couple of the larger fish and make sure filtration/nutrient export is adequate.

Having said that...i have Two A360s and Two A150s on order myself.....

[liquidfunk]

Rule number 1, its always the lights fault.......

I'm sure your cyano, cloudiness, overstocking and limp leathers laying on their side is 100% connected to the lighting.

Of course the bright white cloud just helps spread the light around not block it.

(*sarcasm*)

[FlyPenFly]

We shall see.

The rest of the reefing world is growing corals fine and strong with healthy colors and rapid growth with each of the lights you posted. There are tons of examples across pretty much every large forum.

So the fault must be the lights right, not your practices?

[Dapg8gt]

Was the troll comment really necessary lol.. I don't feel your a troll and I do feel you should spend some of that money "that's not an issue" on upgrading away from the bio balls. I personally feel any top tier light will grow coral and if it's not it's the husbandry/setup that's the issue.. Like posted above there is thousands of examples of successful reefs with all the lights you have tried. If your reef isn't thriving that's Def not the issue of light as you think..

I feel that it's probably a good bet you will change something other than the lights to turn things around. But that might not be disclosed in future updates out of spite =).. Good luck and ditch the bio balls =)..

[EcoTech Service]

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles with the tank. In regards to your comment about the software, it has certainly come a long way and we've recently made some major improvements which increased the overall experience using EcoSmart Live.

If you do decide to give the Radion lighting another try, I'm sure you'll be pleasantly surprised at how user friendly the software has become. If you ever have any questions, don't hesitate to give us a shout; we're here to help!

[d2mini]

^^^^ Yup.

I've been using Radions since before they were even available to the general public and the software is fine. An occaisional glitch here and there was dealt with promptly and effectively by Ecotech support, and lately (past 6 months) the software has been extremely stable. Now with ReefLink it's getting even better. I agree with the others that you had it right the first time and should have worked it out with Ecotech.

[nikon187]

All comments welcome. This was an experiment to see what kind of responses I would get.

I want to show pics of the tank after another 2 weeks. The tank is not devistated, nor are the corals dead. The tank also is not overcrowded. So thanks for the comments.

Looking forward to posting updated pics.

A foxface rabbitfish which gets the size of a football in a 2 foot cube is over stocked.. No other way about it, the tang too but at least he stays smaller. Millions of people can grow coral with just blue and white so im not sure what your trying to prove, all the evidence is out there if you are willing to look.

[HurricaneSystem]

Hey, you guys are the ones getting upset, not me. I am not trying to prove anything, just my findings with LED's with UV vs. LED's without UV.

Ecotech. What do I say to this. It was only about a month and a half ago that I had this software problem. There are threads on your forums that are years in the making with the same problems. Your software has come a long way? In 2 or 3 weeks? I doubt it.

You have a top notch light, one of the top 2 or 3 in my opinion. Your software is just terrible. Put some money into QA in your software side and get to work. You make plenty of money off your fixtures and powerheads, so no excuses there.

The cloudy water, sand, etc. is from a fairly new tank. Normal in any tank, I won't change anything and it will turn around. I have been at this far longer than most of you. I have pulled things far, far worse than this out.

I love the bioball comment. Do you people realize that bioballs and ANY other media is the same thing? It holds bacteria. Bioball problems arise from lazy people letting deitrus and other waste build up on them and you have problems from there.

Some people just make me laugh, you all think you have all the answers because you read it on the internet. Thanks for the comments and also the valid discussion points. For all of those pointing fingers and thinking you know it all, just wait a couple of weeks for some pics.

[d2mini]

Ok,

So my journey began a few months back with the purchase of a new Ecoxotic Solana 25 gallon cube.

I'm just curious what you mean by this?
Your saltwater journey or your led journey?

[Dapg8gt]

Ha ha well good luck on your light theory and thoughts on how you have mastered reef keeping in your 20 year run.. Most here along with myself were just offering advice there were a few negative comments but in whole the majority felt the same way that lights were not your issue. Guess it's reasonable to not want advice if things are working for you.. From your pictures it's obviously not =)..

Good luck as i said before and I'll be unsubscribed from this as it's a wealth of your theories and misinformation. Sure bio balls work but live rock is better.. Sure you have been keeping reefs for 20 years (although I can't see that from your stocking levels or success in your current tank) but my 14 or so years of reef keeping and my current tank (that blows yours out of the water) is in part to taking advice from people with more knowledge than ME in a certain subject or experience.

I forsee you having issues that you will continue to throw money at when the real problem is in short your "experience" and unwillingness to listen to others trying to help.. Good luck

[Hoodrich]

troll

+1

[chrisrex]

Hey just been following along, Just wondering if you have checked your ph,ammonia,nitrite and nitrates level recent if so what are your results? also are you dosing with anything ? if so what are their results other questions I have is how often are you doing WC and what is the salt content of the water and temp ? I hope you figure your issue out soon any info would help anyways good luck!

[HurricaneSystem]

I'm just curious what you mean by this?
Your saltwater journey or your led journey?

Nah, I meant my cube journey. Just thought people would be interested in seeing how the corals did with UV vs not having UV.

Chrisrex,

Yes, actually just performed one last night, everything is perfect. I am adding a pic below, I know it is hard to tell from a pic, but everything is great.

I used Seachem Aqua Vitro Salinity for my salt. I do a 10 gallon water change 1 time a week. I dose some, but very little, not on a regular basis at all since the salt has most of what I need.

My salinity level is 35ppt checked via a Milwaukee Salinity Meter. Water temp is 79.0

Great questions and I don't mind answering at all. My water parameters, filtration, bacteria, etc. etc. are all fine. This is all lighting, I am telling you. You should see the change already, I can't wait to post a pic in a week or so. Here is the water check.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/jason490/4705CB05-EF0E-48F1-9C72-8766DE2F9920-4547-000002E293F1D584_zps3d1a9338.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/jason490/media/4705CB05-EF0E-48F1-9C72-8766DE2F9920-4547-000002E293F1D584_zps3d1a9338.jpg.html)

[Aqualund]

In this rare case I would actually want a picture of today's paper with the test kits and the tank all in it as well to see them all correlate to the same day. I might then at least believe you have fixed your water issues since the time this thread was started. I still know you're full of it...at least this way I would only think 98% full. :)

[asid61]

I assume the dark yellow is nitrate? It looks to be around 3ppm or so. Not 0 for sure.

[Aqualund]

also, looking at it now I think there is a light shade of green in that ammonia reading. it is definitely not a stark, unequivocal yellow. I guess I dont need a newspaper, you have ammonia in your system. case closed.

[chrisrex]

I understand that you think that everything is perfect and to tell us that but it makes it way easier for us to tell us what your dosing and dosage, also when you switched all your live stock over did you re-use the old sand from your 25 cube or did you buy new ? also was your live rock out of water for any length of time ? anyways I hope everything works itself. I look forward to seeing some more pictures of your livestock in a few days

[FlyPenFly]

nvmd

[aandfsoccr04]

Looking forward to the pictures in a week or two to see the changes.

[Av8bluewater]

Foxface grow super fast too. SHould sell back to the fish store or someone with bigger tank. 60 Gallon no where near big enough.
Minimum tank size for Foxface is 125 gallons and you have 60.
http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15+1465+687&pcatid=687

[HurricaneSystem]

Removed~dc

New pics coming, everything is perfect. I even have a live dropcam I will post.

[Aqualund]

Removed~dc

I hope that your tank has cycled by now and the Ammonia is gone. It will definitely do much better without ammonia in it.

[HurricaneSystem]

lol, there was 0 ammonia. BA in physics does not equal a BA in Biology there Einstein......

Moving forward, for those of you that are interested. My Apogee PAR meter arrived today. First a couple of pics after a short 4 days from before.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/jason490/IMG_0130_zps2d2b12dc.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/jason490/media/IMG_0130_zps2d2b12dc.jpg.html)

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/jason490/IMG_0140_zpsf980763f.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/jason490/media/IMG_0140_zpsf980763f.jpg.html)

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/jason490/IMG_0141_zps6f2fc1a5.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/jason490/media/IMG_0141_zps6f2fc1a5.jpg.html)

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/jason490/IMG_0142_zps0c63d8ab.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/jason490/media/IMG_0142_zps0c63d8ab.jpg.html)

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/jason490/IMG_0143_zps9c6b3521.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/jason490/media/IMG_0143_zps9c6b3521.jpg.html)

Ok, so I wanted to test the Kessils as well as the AI Vega's before I return them.

AI Vega's PAR as follows:

1" from Fixture: 3000 PAR
12" from Fixture: 900 PAR
14" from Fixture, 2" under the water surface 160 PAR
12" below water surface, 24" total from fixture: 70 PAR
24" below water surface, 36" total from fixture: 35 PAR - Sandbed

KESSIL A360W PAR as follows:

1" from Fixture: 3000 PAR
12" from Fixture: 455 PAR
14" from Fixture, 2" under the water surface 350 PAR
12" below water surface, 24" total from fixture: 180 PAR
24" below water surface, 36" total from fixture: 115 PAR - Sandbed

I was a bit concerned initially by these numbers, but as you can see, the Kessils keep their PAR penetration through the water much better.

- The AI Vega was adjusted to 100% for all channels.

- The Kessil A360W was adjusted to full daylight spectrum and then added a bit of the blue spectrum with no change. When I turn the Kessil to 20k (all the way blue), the PAR drops about 50%.

[asid61]

I don't think you're getting it. Making ad hominem attacks is not professional and accomplishes nothing. You need to go to an LFS and get tested with fine-range test kits for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.

[HurricaneSystem]

I don't think you're getting it. Making ad hominem attacks is not professional and accomplishes nothing. You need to go to an LFS and get tested with fine-range test kits for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.

Quite the contrary, I don't think you get it. I DON'T CARE what you think. Look at the pictures, read the PAR readings, and keep your advice to yourself.

[asid61]

You said you're having problems with sps earlier. The lights are not the reason, although frequent lighting changes won't help.

[Dapg8gt]

Had to stop by since it's in the new posts =).. Pics look just as bad as before and I agree looks green on ammonia to me too..

Good to see that all that experience getting used with that APi master kit. Your theories have to be right since you have literally the cheapest and prob one of the most unreliable test kits on the market. It's always fun to stop in and see progress of tanks but I think it will be just as fun to unsubscribe again lol..

I don't know too many 20 year veterans myself but I'm guessing most don't own a APi master test kit =). High probability of purple up in your arsenal also. As I said before good luck even though I know you don't care as you have expressed it numerous times to people.



ITS NOT YOUR LIGHTS

[HurricaneSystem]

Trouble with SPS? What? I never mentioned SPS.

Comment removed. ~dc

[sreefs]

As was said before in reef keeping nothing good happens fast. Take it for what it's worth, and good luck.

[Dapg8gt]

Please report instead~dc

[AcroporAddict]

Any of the LED light fixtures you have gone through should do a great job for the corals you have. You have mostly easy softies, aside from your kandy kane, which are not demanding and don't need much PAR in the first place. I'd be more concerned with bleaching your softies and rics with the Kessils than anything else. The Radion still looks better, IMO. You must have caught EcoSmart Live on a bad day, however, as I have not had near the issues you have had, but I tend to find a program I like and stick with it, not making a lot of adjustments to spectrum. I've been using the Radiant Mode in my 100 gallon mixed reef for months. There have been a few issues with the ESL software, to be sure, but not as many IME with it as you had, or say you had.

[that Fish Guy]

I assume the dark yellow is nitrate? It looks to be around 3ppm or so. Not 0 for sure.

Yes, everything there is Zero

Ammonia - O
Nitrite - O
Nitrate -O

Just the PH is Low.

[that Fish Guy]

Had to stop by since it's in the new posts =).. Pics look just as bad as before and I agree looks green on ammonia to me too..

Good to see that all that experience getting used with that APi master kit. Your theories have to be right since you have literally the cheapest and prob one of the most unreliable test kits on the market. It's always fun to stop in and see progress of tanks but I think it will be just as fun to unsubscribe again lol..

I don't know too many 20 year veterans myself but I'm guessing most don't own a APi master test kit =). High probability of purple up in your arsenal also. As I said before good luck even though I know you don't care as you have expressed it numerous times to people.



ITS NOT YOUR LIGHTS

There is nothing wrong with API (Except Phosphate) Test.

And it is very reliable.

I know because I have tested it against Salifert many times and gotten the same results every time. (Exception is API Phosphate - Never use that).

Salifert is a waste of money as well as time.

Yes, API is cheap but that does not make it sub par.

Plus, it is very very quick and you do not need to read any directions.

[HurricaneSystem]

I agree Steve, as I have found in the past, the API are just fine.

Thanks Steve, it is about time there was a coherent comment.

[dc]

I agree Steve, as I have found in the past, the API are just fine.

Thanks Steve, it is about time there was a coherent comment.


You are about one post from having this locked. If you don't care for others advice or opinions ignore them.

[Aqualund]

Yes, everything there is Zero

Ammonia - O
Nitrite - O
Nitrate -O

Just the PH is Low.

LOL, yeah the slight green tinge is perfectly normal...it's "like" almost 0, so its basically 0 right? I can totally agree that his problems are completely lighting based as his water parameters are perfect. *sarcasm*

Here, look at my coral farm, I have just about every one of those corals under blue/white led combos and all are happy and healthy without UV.

http://imgur.com/a/H89Y2

ITS NOT THE LIGHTS.

[MrIcky]

Interesting thread. I just went through the AI thread and although some people seem to have concerns on par, there are still pages and pages of photos of FAR more difficult and sensitive coral being grown successfully.

I don't know what your overall system is like because you are focused on your lights, but there is definitely a larger problem here. And if your tank is now starting to come around, it's likely more to do with more time passing and the tank starting to stabilize rather than the UV unless that AI's par just flat wasn't high enough.

I believe that UV seems to make a difference but this thread just isn't getting me there. Good luck to you.

[liquidfunk]

I don't think the measured PAR values are even remotely valid either considering the cloudiness of the water. You're losing a huge portion of light with any brand given you're trying to push light through milk water.

[dcmartinpc]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm struggling to see the improvement from a week ago. The leathers are still limp and the frogspawn is not extending. I've been reefing for 10 years and I'm still learning things from people on this forum and others.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss some of the advice or ideas in this thread. Most everyone is just trying to help. I don't disagree that things will most likely improve over time, but my personal feeling is that they will improve because the tank will stabilize post transfer, not because of the lights.

Any of the lights you have tried can successfully grow coral, some better than others, but there is proven success with all of them.

I may have missed it, but have you tried running carbon? Just an idea.


I wish you success and hope things improve soon.

Don

[DarkStalker]

it's kind sad, I believe that all of theses corals would be ok with one or two PC bulbs, any of the fixtures used it's an overkill for the corals in the tank.
not a single acro to use the great light source above, although I don't think an acro would survive in this tank.

[d2mini]

it's kind sad, I believe that all of theses corals would be ok with one or two PC bulbs, any of the fixtures used it's an overkill for the corals in the tank.
not a single acro to use the great light source above, although I don't think an acro would survive in this tank.

Agreed.
There is nothing in that tank that needs this expensive lighting, nor would any of the fixtures tried make any difference in the health of the few little corals that you have. The rics and shrooms that seem to be doing "ok" can live in less than great water. Those two leathers on the other hand... wow, they need help... they are not happy campers.

I sincerely hope you can get things figured out soon.

[frankdontsurf]

I read the first page and a sudden sharp pain shot through my right kidney. It took me 10 minutes but here I am. Alive, in pain, and peeing pink.

I can't get this much attention on a thread on feeding corals Zooplankton vs Cyclop-eeze and you guys are in here letting this dude finger pop your bungholes. Lol.

[rogerwilco357]

Those reading look good but the most important the PO4 and NO3 are not shown those two are the ones that dictate how my sps will do in the long run. Also how long do you think it takes for corals to acclimate to a new tank and the water they go into? How long would you say it takes for corals to acclimate to new lighting? I have found sometimes weeks to months before seeing any real change in the color and growth with sps that is . That Neon Sinularia isn’t looking to happy kinda deflated any idea why?
Hope this works out and you finally settle on a light for the corals sake..good luck.
Roger
Nah, I meant my cube journey. Just thought people would be interested in seeing how the corals did with UV vs not having UV.

Chrisrex,

Yes, actually just performed one last night, everything is perfect. I am adding a pic below, I know it is hard to tell from a pic, but everything is great.

I used Seachem Aqua Vitro Salinity for my salt. I do a 10 gallon water change 1 time a week. I dose some, but very little, not on a regular basis at all since the salt has most of what I need.

My salinity level is 35ppt checked via a Milwaukee Salinity Meter. Water temp is 79.0

Great questions and I don't mind answering at all. My water parameters, filtration, bacteria, etc. etc. are all fine. This is all lighting, I am telling you. You should see the change already, I can't wait to post a pic in a week or so. Here is the water check.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/jason490/4705CB05-EF0E-48F1-9C72-8766DE2F9920-4547-000002E293F1D584_zps3d1a9338.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/jason490/media/4705CB05-EF0E-48F1-9C72-8766DE2F9920-4547-000002E293F1D584_zps3d1a9338.jpg.html)

[HurricaneSystem]

Easy, Easy......

You guys attacked me initially, but let's put that behind us. This forum is a place to share knowledge and camaraderie. If I was out of line, I apologize.

The tank is crystal clear now. You never asked, but this cube is only about a month and a half old. So normally there will be a little cloudy water, but that is now gone.

Did I make a mistake? Yea, I did. I started using Tropic Marin Bio Actif over the normal Aqua Vitro Salinity I have been using for quite a while. It made a difference for sure, not in a good way either. Was it all salt fault? No, not at all.

The AI lights drop PAR FAST... The water was not cloudy when I took those PAR readings. I have a new Ecotech Radion Pro being overnighted to me, so I will do PAR readings on that as well. I will put a video up comparing the Kessils to the Radion Pro for you guys.

I hope for those of us that have had harsh things to say in this thread, we can put that behind us. That wasn't my intentions at all.

Arjunah. Nice pics you have going there, it looks like a new set up, but I am sure it will do well. What optics are you using for your farm? Might I also suggest that you get a good salinity device and lose that plastic instant ocean one. Those work ok, but for a coral farm, you need exactness.

Let's keep this going on a positive note and I will be sure and post the PAR from the Radion Pro tomorrow.

[Aqualund]

I have several methods to measure my salinity. That instant ocean just for quick checks, a refractometer for exact measurements and a conductivity probe on my apex.

As for optics, I'm not sure what you mean. As you can see by the pictures, most of the lps are lit by ecorays. My sps are currently being lit by Ushio 20K Halides on one half and and a fullspctrum custom bridgelux led array, they have a mixture of optics to allow for both penetration and color mixing.

And yes those pictures were taken in March, about 5 months after setup. The only thing that has changed by then is the corals got bigger.

[BusterTB]

The AI lights drop PAR FAST... I have a new Ecotech Radion Pro being overnighted to me, so I will do PAR readings on that as well. I will put a video up comparing the Kessils to the Radion Pro for you guys.

Wait now you are going back to the Radion Pro? This has to be the most expensively lit softy tank in the history of reefing:lolspin:

[that Fish Guy]

LOL, yeah the slight green tinge is perfectly normal...it's "like" almost 0, so its basically 0 right? I can totally agree that his problems are completely lighting based as his water parameters are perfect. *sarcasm*

Here, look at my coral farm, I have just about every one of those corals under blue/white led combos and all are happy and healthy without UV.

http://imgur.com/a/H89Y2

ITS NOT THE LIGHTS.

Have you ever used API Tests before?

Ammonia is only a Clear Yellow (Like Nitrate at O) in the Freshwater (Low Range) API PH Test.

The Saltwater Ammonia always appears Cloudy and Slightly Yellow / Green.

His Ammonia is definetly O as well as his Nitrite and Nitrate.

[that Fish Guy]

Easy, Easy......

You guys attacked me initially, but let's put that behind us. This forum is a place to share knowledge and camaraderie. If I was out of line, I apologize.

The tank is crystal clear now. You never asked, but this cube is only about a month and a half old. So normally there will be a little cloudy water, but that is now gone.

Did I make a mistake? Yea, I did. I started using Tropic Marin Bio Actif over the normal Aqua Vitro Salinity I have been using for quite a while. It made a difference for sure, not in a good way either. Was it all salt fault? No, not at all.

The AI lights drop PAR FAST... The water was not cloudy when I took those PAR readings. I have a new Ecotech Radion Pro being overnighted to me, so I will do PAR readings on that as well. I will put a video up comparing the Kessils to the Radion Pro for you guys.

I hope for those of us that have had harsh things to say in this thread, we can put that behind us. That wasn't my intentions at all.

Arjunah. Nice pics you have going there, it looks like a new set up, but I am sure it will do well. What optics are you using for your farm? Might I also suggest that you get a good salinity device and lose that plastic instant ocean one. Those work ok, but for a coral farm, you need exactness.

Let's keep this going on a positive note and I will be sure and post the PAR from the Radion Pro tomorrow.

I look forward to seeing the Video Comparison.

Do you have a Maxspect Razor to compare the Lights to as well?

Are you going to include the AI in the video too?

[asid61]

Have you ever used API Tests before?

Ammonia is only a Clear Yellow (Like Nitrate at O) in the Freshwater (Low Range) API PH Test.

The Saltwater Ammonia always appears Cloudy and Slightly Yellow / Green.

His Ammonia is definetly O as well as his Nitrite and Nitrate.

Not always true. I got clear yellow with nitrates and only a very slight tint for ammonia. You can't trust API for anything fine; you need to go to an LFS and get tested properly.

[MrIcky]

I'm not sure why you are switching fixtures again, this:

"12" below water surface, 24" total from fixture: 180 PAR
24" below water surface, 36" total from fixture: 115 PAR - Sandbed"

is about ideal.

[HurricaneSystem]

The Fish Guy,

Yes, I will include the AI Vega's in the video as well. I do not have the Maxspect's.

So I will include:

Dual AI Vega Color's over the 60
Dual Kessil A360W's over the 60
One Ecotech Radion Pro over the 60

I also have one of the Chinese 120W LED (Non Adjustable) that I can compare as well, that might be interesting.

Honestly, the Kessils are doing really well and the corals are responding in a great way. The only thing I don't like is that my APEX is not really getting along well with the Kessils. I can't seem to get the APEX to control the spectrum correctly.

I am going to try the Radion Pro again because it was an incredible fixture, just bad software. I was contacted and was informed that they have made significant changes over the last few weeks to Ecosmart live. I am also signed up for the Reef Link Beta.

The tank was spectacular under the Radion Pro's and I liked how you can ramp up and down, as you can on all of the fixtures, but the Ecotech is a bit easier.

I continue to be impressed with the Kessil's progress on a daily basis. I just want to see how much more PAR, ONE Radion Pro puts out than the other fixtures. I should be able to get the video up by tonight or tomorrow afternoon.

And yes, I have put a lot of money into this tank. I have about 4k in lights laying around, lol. I just want to get what is best for the corals and tank and go from there.

[d2mini]

The Radion Pro is awesome and so is ReefLink and the current ESL.
You should be very happy with it and can sell all those other lights.

[evolutionZ]

I look forward to seeing the Video Comparison.

Do you have a Maxspect Razor to compare the Lights to as well?

Are you going to include the AI in the video too?

waiting for a chance to say "very purple" again?:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

[asid61]

Actually a side-by-side comparison video of those lights would be extremely helpful to the lighting community on the whole. If you have a friend who's good with cameras and white balance issues, please get them to come so we can see the difference in color.

[HurricaneSystem]

Guys,

That is A LOT of work. I have the about the best camera you can buy, the new Canon 70D with the revolutionary new dual pixel focusing system. It catches the true lighting very, very well.

Anyway, I wasn't even going to do this because I put the Radion Pro up last night and set it to my old spectrum and settings through Ecosmart Live. Using Ecosmart Live on my new Macbook Pro Retina, it worked with 0 problems.

Ok, so here is the funny part and the reason why I didn't rush to do a comparison. On Sipadan Island in Malaysia, Shallow Reef Natural Pre-set, it is reading as follows

65% Intensity (Shallow Reef Natural, Sipadan Island Pre-set), Radion Pro 10 inches from water surface.

Right at LED : 3000 PAR (Seems to be the highest level the PAR meter will read)
10" from surface: 1500 PAR
12" from surface, 2" under water: 1265 PAR
22" from surface, 12" under water: 550 PAR (Halfway down 60 gallon Cube)
34" from surface, 24" under water: 210 PAR

So as you can see, it just blows the other fixtures out of the water, literally. That is just on 65%! I know you will scoff at this, but not even 24 hours after installation of the Radion Pro, my corals are all coming out better. I guess they were pretty used to the Radion Pro before and that is why they have responded so well.

I took a couple of quick shots on my IPhone, so these aren't great, but you can see how much my cabbage has come out.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/jason490/C3B0A966-CD40-4B02-B936-DEFAB86073F9-1355-000000D7F3ADA440_zps2f6a9ff9.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/jason490/media/C3B0A966-CD40-4B02-B936-DEFAB86073F9-1355-000000D7F3ADA440_zps2f6a9ff9.jpg.html)

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/jason490/A8E93A6D-DD88-4467-A3D0-73DC8F8DC67F-1355-000000D7E6650182_zps15233d50.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/jason490/media/A8E93A6D-DD88-4467-A3D0-73DC8F8DC67F-1355-000000D7E6650182_zps15233d50.jpg.html)

[asid61]

Thank you so much! Is that how corals really look under Radions?

[HurricaneSystem]

Yes, I will take a video in a little bit and that will reflect the true colors of the Radion Pro's.

If you are on the fence and debating LED's, spend the extra money and get the Radion Pro. I was pretty upset and even sent one back over the software. After a few of the other brands and going back to this, it is definitely the best. I will post that video shortly.

[dkeller_nc]

Keep in mind that past a certain point, higher PAR values are not only not helpful, they're harmful. That isn't the fault of a particular fixture, of course - it depends greatly on the ability of the aquarist to position the lights and adjust the intensity.

And there are definitely low-end fixtures out there that have greatly insufficient intensity to grow almost any coral except perhaps actinodiscus mushrooms (marineland's "reef capable" fixture comes to mind).

The reason I mention this is that with 2 AI Vegas positioned about 15" over the water on a 50 gallon cube (2ft x 2ft surface area), I really cannot run the intensity over about 50% on the white channel and 65% on the blue channels without causing bleaching in many acros and montis.

Those following this thread may find this article interesting:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2013/9/aafeature

The article suggests that most of the higher-end fixtures available now from EcoTech, Aqua Illumination, Kessil, Orphek, etc... have more than enough intensity to match a fairly extreme natural situation - a water depth of less than a foot in a tropical location.

[HurricaneSystem]

Dkeller,

I have no doubt that you can have too much PAR. That wasn't my goal at all. My reasoning behind buying a PAR meter and measuring my lighting was because my corals were dropping off fast. A lot of members said it was something wrong with my water chemistry, etc. etc, but in fact, the only thing that has changed was my lighting.

So instead of "guessing" what was the PAR level, I bought the Apogee 200 PAR meter. It was a great investment because it opened my eyes to a lot of things.

The Kessil A360W's were only on my tank for about a week, if not less. They made a huge difference in that amount of time. They look "dim" to the eye and it throws a lot of people off. The Kessil's put did not put out as much PAR at the surface as the AI Vega's. However, the PAR penetrated deeper and stayed higher throughout the water column. The Vega's dropped a TON right under the water surface.

My journey was being very frustrated with the Radion Pro because of not being able to program it with software issues. I even had a guy from Ecotech remote to my computer and he worked on it all day. He told me he had it fixed and all was well. That was BS. I came home to a Radion Pro that was on 100% intensity and NOT the 55% I had it on at the time. I could not program it period, it would not even recognize the light.

I returned that to BRS which was great to work with and did not have to do what they did. Afterwards, I went to the AI Vega's thinking 2 would be perfect. Well, my corals started going downhill fast and I had those fixtures adjusted to 45% white, 30% red, 20% green, and 55% for all the blues.

I had Softies that went from looking stunning under the Radion Pro's to looking pitiful as you saw in the pictures. It was not water, bio load, anything like that as it was all perfect.

The Kessil's were making progress, but not like the Radion Pro. The Radion Pro is just in a class by itself. It is the best fixture on the market I believe if you live in the USA for sure. I have heard a lot about the Mitras, but the support and sales are scattered and it is hard to get a quick reply.

If you are going with the AI's, I suggest you go with the Hydra or wait for the new fixture. UV is an absolute MUST in my opinion. The one deciding factor between all of these lights and my corals was the presence of UV. Without it, it was catastrophic, with it, the corals are coming back nicely and flourishing.

That was really my point of this whole thread, UV is just a must. Don't even buy a fixture without it. You might get by for a while, but you are doing damage that you simply cannot recover from. For those of you who will post and say you have been doing just fine without UV lights, then post a picture of before and after. It won't look the same.

[AcroporAddict]

I am a bit confused here.......You just posted that you returned the Radion Pro to Bulk Reef Supply at least as of 9/13, but here you have it again right now hanging over the tank?

How could you have returned it but now you have it over your tank? And how can you take and post PAR readings from a fixture you no longer have in your possession?

And once again, IME you do not need UV in an LED fixture to have nice colors, good growth, and healthy LPS or Softies in a reef tank. MY own tank with Radion G1s proves that, and I used them for two years, not just a couple weeks.

[d2mini]

I am a bit confused here.......You just posted that you returned the Radion Pro to Bulk Reef Supply at least as of 9/13, but here you have it again right now hanging over the tank?

How could you have returned it but now you have it over your tank? And how can you take and post PAR readings from a fixture you no longer have in your possession?

And once again, IME you do not need UV in an LED fixture to have nice colors, good growth, and healthy LPS or Softies in a reef tank. MY own tank with Radion G1s proves that, and I used them for two years, not just a couple weeks.

He posted earlier in the thread that he was getting a Radion again.

And I agree that you can have nice color with a G1. But if you ever upgrade to pros, you will immediately look at your tank and go :eek1: . ;)

[HurricaneSystem]

Yes, I purchased another Radion Pro, it arrived Friday. Here is a video I took today.

http://youtu.be/vSZDUkLAAMs

[Jhuff]

I have six of them on order. Hope this is the answer to your problems

[that Fish Guy]

Not always true. I got clear yellow with nitrates and only a very slight tint for ammonia. You can't trust API for anything fine; you need to go to an LFS and get tested properly.

Yes, you get Clear Yellow for Nitrate and Cloudy for Ammonia.

P.S. You said to go to your LFS for proper testing.

Well Every LFS I know of uses API to Test people's water.

[asid61]

Yes, you get Clear Yellow for Nitrate and Cloudy for Ammonia.

P.S. You said to go to your LFS for proper testing.

Well Every LFS I know of uses API to Test people's water.

I told the OP to go get his water tested at al LFS because his corals were clearly suffering. When I test, it's just during the cycle and for ntirates. My LFS uses API too, but I can request that they use Kent if I want.

[Aqualund]

Yes, you get Clear Yellow for Nitrate and Cloudy for Ammonia.

P.S. You said to go to your LFS for proper testing.

Well Every LFS I know of uses API to Test people's water.

This is because it is cheap and quick, and will tell you right away when things are WAY out of balance and needs addressing....which is all anyone would need if they are at the level of needing testing from your LFS.

Most people that have evolved past this stage know that the reliability of the API kits comes into question when you are trying to differentiate between <1 ppm differences in the pursuit of more specific water parameters.

But like asid said, if you request it, you can ask them to use the kits they actually use to test their reef water, which is usually a hannah or a red sea pro kit.

[HurricaneSystem]

So what do you think is the best testing kit?

[asid61]

So what do you think is the best testing kit?

Red Sea, Kent Marine, Hannah... the list is pretty long. I'm not sure if there is a real consensus. Although API is not very good for fine measurements, just for cycling and getting ballpark answers for calcium and such.
That being said, I use API simply because I have faith in my LR and macroalgaes to remove harmful substances.

[that Fish Guy]

Red Sea, Kent Marine, Hannah... the list is pretty long. I'm not sure if there is a real consensus. Although API is not very good for fine measurements, just for cycling and getting ballpark answers for calcium and such.
That being said, I use API simply because I have faith in my LR and macroalgaes to remove harmful substances.

I am surprised you didn't say Salifert.

It seems that Salifert is the "Gold Standard" to which everyone says is the best test.

[AcroporAddict]

I only test for KH, magnesium and calcium. I like Salifert for KH, and Elos for magnesium and calcium.

[HurricaneSystem]

I used Red Sea Coral Pro for years and then went to switching a bit to try other salts. I am back to using RSCP and I don't normally test anymore. All of the levels of that salt are always about perfect.

Can you run into a bad batch? Yea, but highly unlikely.

Getting back to the lights, I will have to post an update of the tank. It is doing spectacular under the Radion Pro's.

I am convinced of what the best fixture is I can tell you that. However, the Kessil's are also a top option as well and I kind of miss them to the point that I might just keep them.

[scolley]

It seems that Salifert is the "Gold Standard" to which everyone says is the best test.Salifert is the only saltwater (reef) test vendor that I have ever used (with one exception). And while I cannot say anything about their accuracy, I can attest to their consistency. Every new kit reads in the same range as the old kit. And I go through a lot if kits, 'cuz I'm a fool for water testing. So while I can't say there are not better kits, I'm certain that they are good enough.

BTW - the aforementioned exception is the Hanna Phosphate checker. Great little kit if you can afford it.

[d2mini]

I've used most manufacturers and really like Red Sea Coral Pro kits.
Calc, Alk, Mag, Nitrates. Although i'm now using a hannah checker for Alk and also low range hanna for phosphorous.

[Allentown]

I dont even know where to begin.
1) Steve is absolutely correct that the API test kits (while not professional kits) are servicable for quick checks of this stuff. If you have ammonia and nitrite in your tank in the first place your pretty screwed..i rarely test for these as i find its almost impossible (even with a heavily stocked tank) to ever test positive for either ammonia or nitrite (what ever you guys are doing to get that in your tanks, i cant imagine). I long since quit testing for those and mostly just test for calcium, salinity and occaissionally nitrates (and thats all i have really needed to monitor for a long long time).
2) Hurricaine, if you needed help getting your apex to play well in adjusting the kessils spectrum, help was available. It is actually very easy to do with the right programmming.
3) Not to rush to this guys defense (as i think he made several mistakes) but i can attest that once i hung the 4 kessils over my tank....corals that i had (that had also been distressed from poor lighting, a busted tank, several days shoved into a 40 gallon and then dumped into a third tank (one of the corals actually sat in 60 degree fresh water for an hour before i realized it was a GSP and not a rock...thought it was dead for sure)...suddenly turned around and look WONDERFUL! Now i cant give all that credit to the lights....my attention to water quality, filtering, stability etc obviously helped but i agree with much of what he was saying with regard to the kessils.
4) Regardless of which fixtures you choose, you have to realize corals dial in a lighting profile if you will, (they adapt individually to each light fixture) and as long as you keep swapping them out ever few weeks or few months, you are just going to KEEP ****ing them off.

I will say this again. Get your tank stable, dial b ack your bioload, pick a damm light and ask for help with your apex programming and leave it alone! (let it get stable). THEN maybe try some experimentation (over a longer period of time say months and yeears)..

[HurricaneSystem]

Allentown,

I did get help on the Neptune Apex forums with the programming of the Kessil's. That was no problem as the guys there were super helpful.

I didn't get rid of the Kessil's because they weren't doing their job. I was losing coral at an alarming rate when I was using the AI Vega's. I was using the AI Vega's because the Radion Pro I had took a dive after 30 -45 days of usage. The power supply started smoking and it wasn't from any moisture or anything like that.

I tried to remedy this problem through Ecotech, but was told that if I wanted to pay another $1000 dollars, they would send me another light (REFURBISHED, I might add) and then credit my account back in about 60 days. NO THANKS. If I wanted to do that, I would just pay for new ones, which I did.

So my experience with Ecotech was far from good. They even remoted to my PC and said they had it fixed. I came home to a 100% intensity light that wasn't even close to being fixed. It was a joke.

So, my journey of new lights began. The AI Vega, single handedly, ruined corals I have had for 3 years or more. I bought a new Radion Pro and they came back perfectly. My water parameters, my bio load, my filtration, everthing was perfect. My tank is doing great now.

I just added a GHL Mitras 6200 HV tonight which I will be doing a review on shortly.

The Radion Pro is light years ahead of the other lights out there. The Kessil's are top notch as well and I would rate them right up there with the top fixtures. I would recommend those any day as well as the Radion Pro.

I won't comment on my Mitras yet as I still need to see how it does. I can tell you that so far, I am very impressed in the couple of hours I have had it going. More to come!

[kc350twin]

I just saw the Mitras in the FS forum. What happened?

Kc3

[Allentown]

The moving finger hath writ and having writ it thusly has moved on (he is trying 400w metal hallides now)

[HurricaneSystem]

kc350,

Nothing happened, just adding a 400w metal halide to the tank. The mitras in an incredible LED.

I am one of the ones that had great experiences with MH and I would like to see how the tank responds again.

[liquidfunk]

Hesterical, nearly everything you post is comical. Maybe consider a disclaimer in your signature: "stability promotes success, therefor disregard my posts"

[scolley]

Hesterical, nearly everything you post is comical. Maybe consider a disclaimer in your signature: "stability promotes success, therefor disregard my posts"
Kind of got a point here...

You know, I was initially interested because I believe I have personally witness an up-tic in growth in my SPS when I added 405-430mn LEDs. So I wanted to see where this went. But the rapid swapping of equipment without - what I can see as - a coherent plan makes this kind of silly.

Given that I too subscribe to the belief in the value of slow change and stability for reef tank health, you've lost me. Unsubscribed.

Good luck. I wish you the best.

[HurricaneSystem]

OH NO, whatever shall I do? You unsubscribed? OH NO....................

You think I care if you read this? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH....

Liquidfunk, before you start calling people comical, you should probably work on your spelling. I can't even read that nonsense.

[asid61]

OH NO, whatever shall I do? You unsubscribed? OH NO....................

You think I care if you read this? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH....

Liquidfunk, before you start calling people comical, you should probably work on your spelling. I can't even read that nonsense.
Spelling looks fine to me.
And seriously, this will keep on being repeated until this thread is deleted:
Start with your leds at a very low intensity, and work up over a few weeks before deciding that you need to swap them out with another fixture.

[rtparty]

OH NO, whatever shall I do? You unsubscribed? OH NO....................

You think I care if you read this? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH....

Liquidfunk, before you start calling people comical, you should probably work on your spelling. I can't even read that nonsense.

Why write an entire thread if you don't want people to read it?

This entire thread is comical.

[tanksfishtank]

How about putting him in ignore instead of posting?~dc

[tanksfishtank]

[flamealert]

[HurricaneSystem]

[flamealert]

[pmcarbrey]

I don't have a thread selling any AI's you tard. That is pretty funny. I never put a thread up to sell any fixture other than the Mitras. You guys just keep getting smarter......

People might respect your opinions and experiences a bit more if you weren't so abrasive. You need to realize that people are giving constructive criticism and taking offense to every comment made not only makes your claims less credible, but also adds nothing constructive to the community. Perhaps what would be best is to step back, realize you are on a fish forum talking to hundreds of people you will never meet, and reassess your attitude towards this whole fiasco.

[tanksfishtank]

Yeah, now that you took the thread down.

[nikon187]

mods please close this thread, it is full of fail.

[kc350twin]

I'm curious to what you think after going back to Halide? I went from ATI T5/ReefBrite led to a Cayman Sun 250w Radium on a M80 ballast because I was reading threads and curious about everyone's success with halides. Man it was a shock how drab everything looked. I wish I would have supplemented the halide with LEDs but I don't think it would have helped enough. What light/bulb/ballast combo are you doing?

[HurricaneSystem]

Kc,

It might very well look drab. As I continue to say, the Mitras looks fantastic and has a wide range of adjustability in how the colors look. So if I put up the halide and it just doesn't respond, I will put an LED back on.

[shaginwagon13]

I don't understand this thread. Everyone advising as to your tank issues and you get upset and dismiss them (which is your choice). But are you asking a question or are you trying to relay your findings? Your not going to find many people who stick the amount of livestock you have in a 25 gallon and replicate this experiment if thats what your trying to do.

[dc]

We're done here.