inbred clowns?

[tidepoole]

So I have been setting up a clown/neme tank for about 6 months now, and decided to get the fish first since my LFS has tank raised ocellaris. They had the mom and dad there in the store also, but I bought two of the kids. Is there a chance one of them will turn female and I end up with banjo playin, inbred clowns? Cause that is awkward even for someone who grew up in tennessee :)

[Azedenkae]

Yes, there is a chance that they'll pair up and breed.

Doubt they'll end up playing the banjo though. For all the hype about inbred fish and playing banjos, it's not really that common. It does happen, but well, yeah. Chances are they'll playthe guitar.

[D-Nak]

Definitely harmonica though. Just keep that in mind.

In all seriousness though, your clowns will most likely pair up. If tank conditions are optimal, it's common for clowns to breed. Not really an issue unless you plan to breed them.

[deangelr]

'Finding Nemo' Would have been a weird movie if they stuck to reality..

[phender]

From what I understand, inbreeding your clowns will not be a problem unless you inbreed them for about 8 generations.

[tidepoole]

Nemo was an only child (after the "incedent"), but I'm starting to wonder where that little fin really came from. Maybe marlin fell for one of his brothers...er...sister? And phender, I play all the above mentioned instruments, you're making me thing my family tree has less forks than I thought! lol

[Jeff000]

Inbreeding is how most of these morphs happen.

[Azedenkae]

Inbreeding is how most of these morphs happen.

Lol, no. Crossbreeding is how most of these morphs happened. >. <" Different color/pattern morphs were obtained and crossed to produce more morphs. :)

@phender: My research found that as well. :) Though it is just an average, as it will still be up to chance. Could get banjo players in the first batch of inbreds, or it may never happen. :P

[OrionN]

I have not inbred any clowns for 8 generations, but I also read that wild clowns after inbreed for about 8 generation will start to show deformities and significant problems. I don't know if this is really true or if people just repeat thinks they have read without having first hand experiences.

[Jeff000]

Lol, no. Crossbreeding is how most of these morphs happened. >. <" Different color/pattern morphs were obtained and crossed to produce more morphs. :)

@phender: My research found that as well. :) Though it is just an average, as it will still be up to chance. Could get banjo players in the first batch of inbreds, or it may never happen. :P

Hmm. I was pretty sure it was mother with son type things to get some.
I know for snakes you breed them like that for the morphs because the morphs are double recessive. But it's been several years since I've done that stuff.

[OrionN]

I think if the mutation result in lack of something (lack of color as in albino) than it often recessive. I don't think most of the designer clowns traits fall in this category.

[Azedenkae]

Hmm. I was pretty sure it was mother with son type things to get some.
I know for snakes you breed them like that for the morphs because the morphs are double recessive. But it's been several years since I've done that stuff.

Yes, for some. But most will be wild-caught or crossbreds.

Morphs obtained from the wild:
-Onyx Perc
-Picasso Perc
-Black Occy
-Half-Black Occy

Morphs obtained from crossbreeding:
-Black Photon
-Phantom
-DaVinci
-Black Ice
-Maine Mocha
-Blacker Ice
-White Knight
-Snow Onyx
-Frostbite
-Fancy White
-Mocha
-Snowcasso
-Etc. etc.

Morphs obtained from selective breeding:
-Platinum Perc
-Snowflake Occy
-Naked Occy

Not saying the crossbreds won't get inbred, but fact is they can just as easily be obtained by breeding whatever they are crossbred from.

[EDIT]

My list is not at all exhaustive. It's just to offer the gist of the idea.

[phender]

I am pretty sure the first snowflakes were found in clutches from two WC "normal" ocellaris. This pair was purchased by a breeding facility (I think it was Tropic Marine).

While this isn't exactly caught from the wild, they were not a result of any selective or inbreeding.

I don't know of any of the designer morphs that are a result of isolating mutations from persistent inbreeding.

[turboreef318]

I know for snakes you breed them like that for the morphs because the morphs are double recessive. But it's been several years since I've done that stuff.

It is not inbreeding that cause mutations in snakes either. Genetic mutations cause the variations. You do not have to breed siblings to get double recessive. In this way, it is very similar to clownfish. Naturally occurring pattern or pigment mutations along with selective breeding provide new morphs. For example, a naturally occurring recessive mutation in snakes is albinism. Breeding two albino snakes together regardless of whether or not they are siblings will give you a double recessive (same result will occur in a 1 to 4 ratio if they are het albino). The reason that inbreeding is so common in fish or snake breeders relates to the access to animals. If a breeder only has two animals with a particular trait and you want a "super" version of that trait, then you breed the siblings. The same result would occur if you bring in another animal with the same gene mutation, but with the increased expense of the new animal. With proper precautions (such as eventually expanding the gene pool) low levels of inbreeding for the purpose of selective breeding proves effective.

[FTDelta]

Lol, no. Crossbreeding is how most of these morphs happened. >. <" Different color/pattern morphs were obtained and crossed to produce more morphs. :)

@phender: My research found that as well. :) Though it is just an average, as it will still be up to chance. Could get banjo players in the first batch of inbreds, or it may never happen. :P

Inbreeding, crossbreeding is the same thing.

[OrionN]

FTDelta,
I think you are a little confused.
In breeding is breeding of brother and sister
Line breeding is breeding daughter to father (or son to mother), and keep doing it
Cross breeding is breeding of two separate species in clownfish (or in dogs two separate breed).
In breeding and cross breeding is definitely not the same.

[FTDelta]

FTDelta,
I think you are a little confused.
In breeding is breeding of brother and sister
Line breeding is breeding daughter to father (or son to mother), and keep doing it
Cross breeding is breeding of two separate species in clownfish (or in dogs two separate breed).
In breeding and cross breeding is definitely not the same.

In breeding is breeding of brother and sister? All clowns are male until they form a pair regardless of whether they're from the same clutch or not. There's no such thing as female clownfish as juveniles remember?

If cross breeding is between 2 species of clownfish, then how come we never see... let's say Pink Skunk clownfish breed with a Maroon clownfish? It's just not possible. Maybe between Percula and Occelleris designer/morphs or not.

In breeding? Line breeding? Crossbreeding? Makes no difference for that's how designer clownfish are created.

[Azedenkae]

FTDelta,
I think you are a little confused.
In breeding is breeding of brother and sister
Line breeding is breeding daughter to father (or son to mother), and keep doing it
Cross breeding is breeding of two separate species in clownfish (or in dogs two separate breed).
In breeding and cross breeding is definitely not the same.

Aye, two very different things. Also crossbreeding can also be defined at the intraspecific level, i.e. different breeds/morphs/whatever. Like dogs, yeah.

[D-Nak]

In breeding is breeding of brother and sister? All clowns are male until they form a pair regardless of whether they're from the same clutch or not. There's no such thing as female clownfish as juveniles remember?

If cross breeding is between 2 species of clownfish, then how come we never see... let's say Pink Skunk clownfish breed with a Maroon clownfish? It's just not possible. Maybe between Percula and Occelleris designer/morphs or not.

In breeding? Line breeding? Crossbreeding? Makes no difference for that's how designer clownfish are created.

Wow... you are waaay off.

How about an ocellaris and a maroon?

http://www.orafarm.com/products/fish/clowns/blood-orange/

Yes, it is possible. Some may not agree with it, but it is possible.

I take it by your negative posts about designer clowns that you don't like them. I don't mind opinions, but please get your facts straight.

[Azedenkae]

In breeding is breeding of brother and sister? All clowns are male until they form a pair regardless of whether they're from the same clutch or not. There's no such thing as female clownfish as juveniles remember?

If cross breeding is between 2 species of clownfish, then how come we never see... let's say Pink Skunk clownfish breed with a Maroon clownfish? It's just not possible. Maybe between Percula and Occelleris designer/morphs or not.

In breeding? Line breeding? Crossbreeding? Makes no difference for that's how designer clownfish are created.

Lol, they may not start out as brother but if you get two juveniles from the same batch and they pair up and one becomes female (the other being male), then you'll have inbreeding between a brothet and a sister. Because well, one'd be a female sibling (aka sister), the other'd be a male sibling (aka brother).

Obviously different species of Clownfish normally don't really mix (in the wild) and there are barriers to them breeding, but yeah, Occys have breed with Percs. Maroons have breed with Occys. Clarkii has breed with Latezonatus. And that's all interspecific hybrids. Intraspecific hybrids are hybrids between different breeds/morphs/races/sub-species/etc., which are what most of the designer clowns are.

Even if you do not have hybrids defined as broadly, well, these fish are still products of breeding different morphs. Which means that even if you don't use the definition of crossbreds/hybrids that well, everyone uses, fact is they're still not inbreds...

As with D-Nak: You don't have to like designer clowns. You can hate them. No issues, it's your feelings about them. But don't go about spreading false info.

[OrionN]

FTDelta,:rolleye1:
The more you wrote, the less credible you are.
This may or may not be important to you.

[aandfsoccr04]

Inbreeding, crossbreeding is the same thing.

:facepalm: