"bestst" arcylic for DIY all one?

[Devaji108]

so I am in the process of starting a AIO tank.
I never build one before always used sumps but this system is focused on keeping it simple as possible. so there not much info out there on building one but seams pretty simple.

but i do have a few questions:
is there a best type of acrylic to use?
gluing acrylic to acrylic tip and tricks?
will silicone hold acrylic to glass?

and any other tips and feedback would be great.
:beer:

[rfgonzo]

Cell cast acrylic

Use weld-on 4 or 16 and make sure your surface does not have cut groves, if so run the back of a hacksaw blade over them at a 45 angle to smooth them out.

Yes but only if your using it as a baffle, if not then NO.

[BeanAnimal]

16 is not suitable for building a tank....

[TropTrea]

16 is not suitable for building a tank....

Why do you say that? In the Bast I built several BETTa Display tanks with compartments using #16. Largest tank was 8' long 6" deep and 6 " tall with 18 compartments and none had any issues using #16. I also built several sumps and baffle systems using #16 without an issue.

Now building something huge like a 100 plus gallon tank might ber another isue as the water pressure on the seams is greater. But both chemicals are very simular with the big difference being how easily they flow so I would suspect a big difference.

[nemosworld]

http://www.melevsreef.com/tools.html

[Devaji108]

^ ah thanks I forgot about melves reef will have to look back at his page.

i am not building the hole tank just a AIO section attached to a galss 40br to hide the HOG style ATS, heater and PH probe( cuz I have might as well use it ) pump & what ever else I see fit to keep in there.

[Devaji108]

here is a thought but maybe I should just use glass and paint it black?
hummm sure save all the sticky toxic glue.

only problem I see is that i would still have to drill for the return...with is a MJ 1200 and some how make teeth for the over flow.
I would rather work with glass any way...just not sure how I would get the water over...but i got a couple ideas...

[uncleof6]

Why do you say that? In the Bast I built several BETTa Display tanks with compartments using #16. Largest tank was 8' long 6" deep and 6 " tall with 18 compartments and none had any issues using #16. I also built several sumps and baffle systems using #16 without an issue.

Now building something huge like a 100 plus gallon tank might ber another isue as the water pressure on the seams is greater. But both chemicals are very simular with the big difference being how easily they flow so I would suspect a big difference.


Mayhaps, what he is saying is valid, and what the previous poster stated is not. What you have done in the past, is not germane to the validity of the information.

Probably, Bean is referring to the bubbly mess left behind by weld-on 16, or maybe the 30% shrinkage intrinsic to weld-on 16. Maybe Bean did his homework and noted the "put very simply" comment by the foremost acrylic fabricator in this forum (and you will not find more VALID information anywhere else on the web, concerning acrylic fabrication) James (Acrylics)—loosely quoted: "Avoid weld-on 16 like the plague; it is fugley and isn't all that strong. Anything that 16 can do, 40/42 will do better."

Acrylic tank fabrication, on the web in general, is fraught with the same amount of invalid information, as is glass tank fabrication. For much the same reasons folks run off to Home Depot and grab a tube of GE Silicone I, folks run off and grab weld-on 16. If you have an interest in learning the valid materials, methods, and techniques for acrylic tank fabrication, I see a lot of reading in your future:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96763&pp=25

OP: There are only two acrylic materials suitable for water tank building (size is basically irrelevant and includes material for baffle making) both called out by brand name and/or "designator": Polycast is one, and Plexiglas G is the other. (Plexiglas is a brand name, plexiglass is a generic term for acrylic.) Acrylite GP used to be one of the choices, however, due to manufacturing inconsistancies, it has been removed from the list. Neither of the two materials can be obtained from Home Depot or other big box stores, and much of what they do carry is NOT acrylic, rather it is polycarbonate—with which you would be getting yourself into some trouble.

The "secret" to acrylic tank fabrication is edge preperation, weld-on 3 or 4, and using the "pins method" of constuction. Avoid using weld-on 16...in some cases weld-on 40 or 42 may be called for.

If you want to dive into the details, I also see a lot of reading in your future: same link as above.

[uncleof6]

here is a thought but maybe I should just use glass and paint it black?
hummm sure save all the sticky toxic glue.

only problem I see is that i would still have to drill for the return...with is a MJ 1200 and some how make teeth for the over flow.
I would rather work with glass any way...just not sure how I would get the water over...but i got a couple ideas...

I would avoid using acrylic altogther. The problem being, that acrylic and glass do not play so nicely together, contrary to what most popular lines of thought, and mass production, would suggest. I would also avoid "making teeth." They really serve no useful purpose, (fish get in there anyway,) and they complicate the "fluid dynamics" of overflows (weirs.) As far as paint goes, use smoked or "black" glass instead. Paint WILL NOT stick to glass, contrary to what some popular thought would suggest, unless you are willing to pay several hundred dollars per gallon for the paint. You will simply end up with a tank full of paint.

[Devaji108]

uncle,
thanks for chiming in I always take your advice to heart, your a wealth of info.
i'll ask my local glass shop about smoked glass and see if they have it.
do you think it will be tempered?

[TropTrea]

I would avoid using acrylic altogther. The problem being, that acrylic and glass do not play so nicely together, contrary to what most popular lines of thought, and mass production, would suggest. I would also avoid "making teeth." They really serve no useful purpose, (fish get in there anyway,) and they complicate the "fluid dynamics" of overflows (weirs.) As far as paint goes, use smoked or "black" glass instead. Paint WILL NOT stick to glass, contrary to what some popular thought would suggest, unless you are willing to pay several hundred dollars per gallon for the paint. You will simply end up with a tank full of paint.

An interesting comment. While I do agree with avoiance of using the teeth I ill disagree about the silicone and acrylic. All my overflow boxes are made of Acrylic and all my tanks are glass. They are running for roughly 10 years now flawlesly without an issue secured to the glass with Silicone. There is actualy no other sealent that does work with a glass to acrylic bound.

It should also ber noted that Acrylic is also available in various colors including black, semi transparent black and several in between. Glass is much harder to find that is tinted and usualy costs much more than clear glass.

[rfgonzo]

16 is not suitable for building a tank....

Guess I need to do some more reading, I have built DIY tanks this way for years. :eek1:

[Devaji108]

so I went to my local glass shop to see about the black or smokey glass they do have the smokey stuff but its not very dark at all...I wounder if there is a reef safe material i can coat the glass with?

[TropTrea]

so I went to my local glass shop to see about the black or smokey glass they do have the smokey stuff but its not very dark at all...I wounder if there is a reef safe material i can coat the glass with?

A thought ion that might be the film they use on aut windows. But the question with that is how well does it stand up under water.

The dark tinted glass I know does exist as it is used in so called stained glass windows. It is not something normaly stocked by most glass dealers but is available. The question is on even a special order how much would the minimum order be for this material? Would your local shop be dealing with the companies that manufacture it? You might want to check the web for possible sources.

[Devaji108]

^ thanks Dennis great idea.
another idea I have is to get 2 thinner pieces of glass say 1/8" 1 side on each black then silicon then together, thus no paint in the water. just not sure if the silicon job will turn out sloppy...

[TropTrea]

I did a web search and found that the dark black glass is available trough art supply stores as roughly a bit under $10 per square foot. This is for 1/8" thick glass that I would not trust for Aquarium use. But it could be layered over 1/4" glass as you mentioned above.

[Devaji108]

well I went to the nearest town with a petco (100 miles away) and got the 40br. wired buying a tank from them that's not from there 1 per gallon sale...oh well I did not want to wait.

any one know if krylon fusion stick to glass good? thinking my best bet might to be paint to 1/8" pices and silicone them together so on paint is exposed...

[uncleof6]

NO it does not. No paint will stick to glass worth a toot, especially around water, unless you want to pay several hundred dollars per gallon. Krylon fusion is formulated for use on plastics... I am certain someone is going to come along and say it "works fine, no issues" very typical. However, it does not stick to glass, and do not, REPEAT do not, try to silicone glass that is painted. That is not going to work either. The glass must be "squeaky" clean.

[Devaji108]

man wish I just could find some black glass and call it a day...guess I got some internet searching to do...

[Devaji108]

ok here is another idea I can get mirrored glass locally....think that the fish would freak out too much on there reflection?

[TropTrea]

ok here is another idea I can get mirrored glass locally....think that the fish would freak out too much on there reflection?

Actualy there was a time that Mirrored Glass on the back of Aquariums was a popular option. Yes some fish that are agressive to there own species do freak out initialy but after a while they mellow out considerably and eventualy ignore there reflections.

[andrew714]

theres a few hundred pages on acrylic builds that you can read here. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1056956&page=100

[BeanAnimal]

man wish I just could find some black glass and call it a day...guess I got some internet searching to do...

PPG (and others) make black glass. Any glass vendor can get it. The two common colors are greylite#14 and graylite#31 (14% and 31% light transmission). You can also find "super gray" and "onyx" but I think they may only come in 1/4"

[Ben_1313]

Acrylic paint has worked well for me, it's kind of fragile though so I just put some packing tape where the "rub points" will be and I've never had a problem.

[Devaji108]

ok i think i found what i am going to do but need to know if "stained" glass is reef safe. I think that it would be but just wanna make sure...

[uncleof6]

ok i think i found what i am going to do but need to know if "stained" glass is reef safe. I think that it would be but just wanna make sure...

Why would it not be? Glass is glass....

[Devaji108]

PPG (and others) make black glass. Any glass vendor can get it. The two common colors are greylite#14 and graylite#31 (14% and 31% light transmission). You can also find "super gray" and "onyx" but I think they may only come in 1/4"


yeah mt local glass shop has the gray however don't think its dark enough...but i have a fun idea. gonna add some stained glass to it.

[TropTrea]

The only real problem is with local vendors. Yes the product is manufactured but can they get it and will they. Having been in business often suppiers require a minmium quantity of a product. If the Minimium is a 4' X 8' sheet of the material and the individual only needs a 1' X 4' section of it will the local shop even bother to buy it for them feaing they will have a 7' X 4' sheet left in stock that no one might want for months or even years.

[uncleof6]

Well the secret is to just avoid local vendors, mom & pop window shops, and other low end producers. Walk into a place that makes tables, shower doors and other higher end products, and you can likely walk out with what you need, from the cut off pile, for a fraction of what others would charge in lower end shops. The end customer already paid twice for that 4 x 8 sheet of black glass for the table that only needed part of it... However, glass is not going to be cheap, so there is no point dreaming that it will be... in the end, acrylic is just as expensive if not more than glass, for the end user.

[BeanAnimal]

The only real problem is with local vendors. Yes the product is manufactured but can they get it and will they. Having been in business often suppiers require a minmium quantity of a product. If the Minimium is a 4' X 8' sheet of the material and the individual only needs a 1' X 4' section of it will the local shop even bother to buy it for them feaing they will have a 7' X 4' sheet left in stock that no one might want for months or even years.

The reality is that MOST (almost all) "local" glass shops do very little in-house work and instead simply place cut glass orders with their suppliers. Those same suppliers are the ones who also supply their tempered orders, etc.

It is not like you ask for a 1' by 3' sheet with 5 holes, tempered and they do it in house. You give them the drawing and they send it to their supplier who fabs it and ships it. The local shop likely only stocks a few standard thickness of glass for replacement glazing. So it may not be "cheap" but most vendors can get you what you want.

As Jim said, if they are a true fab shop with CNC, Waterjet, etc. then they either have stock and can cut from it, they know where to order small custom pieces that don't meet their fab qty requirements or min order requirements. (Hint: it is the same vendors mom and pop shops call). Price... well that depends on how you present your needs.

The bottom line.... just ask.

[TropTrea]

Why would it not be? Glass is glass....

Noi glass is not glass. There is plate glass and tempered glass. There is low iron glass and high iron content glass. As far as colored glass goes there is painted or stained on the surface as wel as that material added in during the process to get the color throughout the thickness.

[uncleof6]

Noi glass is not glass. There is plate glass and tempered glass. There is low iron glass and high iron content glass. As far as colored glass goes there is painted or stained on the surface as wel as that material added in during the process to get the color throughout the thickness.

What is your point? Colored (or stained) glass is made so—during the manufacturing process—by changing the constituents of the melt, (adding metallic salts to the melt) not afterwards....black glass is made by increasing the amount of iron in the glass (creates a deep green color, not actually black.) You are grabbing at straws, for the sake of arguing, because you are unhappy that some of your comments appear to have been challanged. I really urge you to do some research, extending beyond your current sources. :)

Glass is glass is glass. Float, low-iron, stained. The physical properties are the same; the only difference is with light transmission, and the wavelengths reflected by that glass—not relevant to this discussion. Arguably, we can can demonstrate a "difference" between float glass, and tempered glass, however tempered glass is float glass that has been tempered with heat. For purposes of this discussion, that is also irrelevant.

Nothing leaches out of the glass, not even silicates—as other uninformed folks have claimed. If someone buys glass that is painted, thinking it is "stained glass," that would be a problem with the "someone," not the information put forth in this thread.

[TropTrea]

Nothing leaches out of the glass, not even silicates—as other uninformed folks have claimed. If someone buys glass that is painted, thinking it is "stained glass," that would be a problem with the "someone," not the information put forth in this thread.

This is the point. There is such a thing as stained glass and colored glass. It you search the web you will find people selling both of these and interchanging what they are calling it. some of it simply surface colored shile others are colored with the composition used in the makeing of the glass.

Yes it very possible for someone to oder thinking they are getting a glass that is colored trough the manufacturing process and instead get something with only a surface coloring. This is buyer a be aware of what your realy getting.

And smoked or opaque glass is not the same as high iron glass. The high iron increases the green tint and can be taken to a level that the glass looks green. But there is also smoke, to opaque black glass made that uses different chemicals to color it.

[Devaji108]

thanks everyone for the feedback...
so I can't seam to find onyx black glass anywhere...after hrs of net search and calling a bunch of random places . i just have up.
so I an just going to get the tented glass from my local glass shop and drive 100 miles each way to a stained glass dealer and pick out a nice colorfull, groovy l glass to cover the other glass. will it be perfect no...but i think it might be fun and different. trying to add a touch of artistic quality to the tank.

I know I know in the end it will be covered with coralline algae anyway but till then it will looks really nice!

[uncleof6]

This is the point. There is such a thing as stained glass and colored glass. It you search the web you will find people selling both of these and interchanging what they are calling it. some of it simply surface colored shile others are colored with the composition used in the makeing of the glass.

Yes it very possible for someone to oder thinking they are getting a glass that is colored trough the manufacturing process and instead get something with only a surface coloring. This is buyer a be aware of what your realy getting.

And smoked or opaque glass is not the same as high iron glass. The high iron increases the green tint and can be taken to a level that the glass looks green. But there is also smoke, to opaque black glass made that uses different chemicals to color it.

The basic point being made is the web is not the place to look, you have to do it the old fashioned way, get in your car and go find it; you will only find what you want (pertaining to black glass) from a high end fab shop. It is much the same as learning about something: you can't learn much of anything if you rely on the web...go to a library and read a book.

[uncleof6]

thanks everyone for the feedback...
so I can't seam to find onyx black glass anywhere...after hrs of net search and calling a bunch of random places . i just have up.
so I an just going to get the tented glass from my local glass shop and drive 100 miles each way to a stained glass dealer and pick out a nice colorfull, groovy l glass to cover the other glass. will it be perfect no...but i think it might be fun and different. trying to add a touch of artistic quality to the tank.

I know I know in the end it will be covered with coralline algae anyway but till then it will looks really nice!

Why onyx black glass? As you pointed out, this is all rather silly as a few months down the road, you won't know what color you started with. Quite frankly, I see using "stained" glass, to be the same as putting a sunken ship in your tank... ;)

[TropTrea]

The basic point being made is the web is not the place to look, you have to do it the old fashioned way, get in your car and go find it; you will only find what you want (pertaining to black glass) from a high end fab shop. It is much the same as learning about something: you can't learn much of anything if you rely on the web...go to a library and read a book.

Tis is great when your living in a densly populated urban city that probably has a dozen different glass dealers in it. But what about the person living in the more rural states. They may have 100 miles to drive to get to the nearest glass dealer. Only to find out he does not handle or will not get what they want.

I actualy live in a suburban area near a big city. And we have only 1/2 dozen glass dealers localy. I will only deal with 2 of them as some of the shops will charge me up to 3 times more for the same material. Some will not do any special orders outside of cutting non-tempered glass to size. And some will not sell retail but only wholesale.

On a side note I did some calling last night to see what I could find locally. One shop can special order semi opaque black glass that is 17% light transmitting. The minimium thickness is 1/4" but I would have to order a minimium of a half of a full sheet. They will cut it to size for me at an added cost of $7.00 per cut. He also noted I'dbe paying at least 3 times more than clear material that he stocks, or about double than some less opaque material on the 50% light transmssion range.

The light transmission rating are based on glass that is 1 inch thick. So when you looking at 1/4 thick glass the glass that is rated at 50% will actualy transmit about 87.5% of the light and what is rated at 17% will actualy transmit about 80% of the light. He also claimed there were opaque classes but he would need to research them as he never sold any of them.

[BeanAnimal]

On a side note I did some calling last night to see what I could find locally. One shop can special order semi opaque black glass that is 17% light transmitting. The minimium thickness is 1/4" but I would have to order a minimium of a half of a full sheet. Then they are not the shop to deal with. As I mentioned, MOST reputable glass shops have resources where they can order pre-cut pieces of any common glass type. PPG greylite is an extremely common glass. I have had several pieces cut for several projects over the years and used different vendors. One of them here in the Pittsburgh area and the other 70 miles from the city, literally in the a little 1 stop-light town that is 10 miles from the closest 2 stop-light town in rural Pennsylvania.

They will cut it to size for me at an added cost of $7.00 per cut. He also noted I'dbe paying at least 3 times more than clear material that he stocks, or about double than some less opaque material on the 50% light transmssion range. He is too lazy to find out which of his suppliers will do the work and figures if you want it that bad, he will do it in house and make a bundle off of you. This is your vendor or choice?

While glass and glass supply is not my area of expertise, I have a friend who worked for and eventually ran his fathers small town glass business. He supplied glaziers and a few small stained glass shops. He rarely EVER got specialty glass in house and instead had specialty cut-to-order pieces shipped to him regularly and he would finish them.

The light transmission rating are based on glass that is 1 inch thick. So when you looking at 1/4 thick glass the glass that is rated at 50% will actualy transmit about 87.5% of the light and what is rated at 17% will actualy transmit about 80% of the light. He also claimed there were opaque classes but he would need to research them as he never sold any of them.Either your supplier has no idea what he is talking about, or he is looking that the wrong products.

The PPG product transmittance values are indicated for 1/4" pane, not 1".
http://www.ppg.com/corporate/ideascapes/glass/Documents/101077%20High%20Perform%20Gray%20Glass%20(7070).PDF

There are also several other manufacturers of "privacy" glass with similar (competitive) specifications.