Why isn'ty tank cycling past ammonia stage?!

[lmack7]

So I got set up my 20 g reef tank on October 19 the with 20 lbs of cured live rock. The next week I had a massive algae bloom but hadn't noticed any ammonia or nitrite spikes. The guy at my lfs said it had cyced and gote a cleanup crew picked out. Since then both snails and hermit crabs I had died and the damsel for ammonia related reasons. Some how the emarald crab and peppermint shrimp made it and are still alive. When the damsel started showing signs of stress I began domain the tank with prime. My ammonia has been 8 ppm for just about two weeks and no nitrite. I did a 20% water change last week and today but still 8 ppm. Maybe the prime affects the ammonia reading? I thought I read that somewhere. But why hasn't the nitrite started? I'm frustrated and confused.
Thank you, logan

[hollister]

I would like to help , but I have near enough information. Add in your profile tank specs , like .
All stock , all equipment , age and amount of LR and LS ?

[lmack7]

I would like to help , but I have near enough information. Add in your profile tank specs , like .
All stock , all equipment , age and amount of LR and LS ?

Stock: 1 emarald crab, 1 peppermint shrimp

Rock: 20 lbs live rock, live sand 15 lbs

Equipment:2 nano power heads, protein skimmer, overflow filtration , bio balls, ceramic rings, 75wtt heater, filter pads blue and white (different textures), and lights 2 white 2 blue, led moonlight.

Also I forgot to mention the crazy amount of hair algae. Don't know I that matter but thought if put it out there

[patsfan1130]

Simply put...your tank is not cycled. You say you've never detected ammonia yet you say the snails/crabs deaths were ammonia related? This tank has been setup for 3 weeks. slow down and wait..Don't add any livestock. check your levels every other day or so. Keep a log of the results. Your LFS is giving you bad advice.

*edit - sorry..I missed you were reading 8 ppm - my advice stands. wait it out..Once you are getting zero...add a small CUC. Wait a week or 2 then maybe add a fish

[lmack7]

Simply put...your tank is not cycled. You say you've never detected ammonia yet you say the snails/crabs deaths were ammonia related? This tank has been setup for 3 weeks. slow down and wait..Don't add any livestock. check your levels every other day or so. Keep a log of the results. Your LFS is giving you bad advice.

No I haven't detected nitrite ammonia is detected at 8ppm. I don't know how accurate that is though because supposevley prime alters tests results

[patsfan1130]

What is your source water? Tap? RO? RO/DI? You should not be needing prime if you are using RO/DI

[lmack7]

What is your source water? Tap? RO? RO/DI? You should not be needing prime if you are using RO/DI

I get it from my Lfs. And I put prime in because ammonia started building up, it wasn't in the water to begin with.

[patsfan1130]

For a new tank you WANT to see an ammonia spike. Mother nature will take over and NO3 will drop. Stop adding that crap

[lmack7]

For a new tank you WANT to see an ammonia spike. Mother nature will take over and NO3 will drop. Stop adding that crap

Okay when do you think the nitite will start forming?

[patsfan1130]

Hard to say really. I've no idea how the addition of the prime will/could affect the cycle. Generally speaking from past experience I'd say your looking at 4-6 weeks for the cycle to complete from the time you started. Check your levels regularly. When you amm & trite are undetectable and your trate is through the roof....do a WC and you are on your way.

[Pcrain]

You could Use an instant cycling product like safe start or biospira , or simple complete start. If wanting to do naturally the bacteria comes from lr.. what I say to most is leave it the nitrate cycle takes awhile to establish you will see ammonia spike before you see 0 ammonia and maybe some nitrate

[KeepNitReel]

8ppm ammonia is extremely high, the recommended levels to cycle a tank is between 2-5ppm. At 8ppm you will see little to no movement in your cycle.

[lmack7]

8ppm ammonia is extremely high, the recommended levels to cycle a tank is between 2-5ppm. At 8ppm you will see little to no movement in your cycle.

So what should. I do?

[KeepNitReel]

Water change to get down to the correct level.

If your using API test kit, your ammonia test is probably turning grey after 30 or so minutes. That is a true indication of extremely high ammonia.

[lmack7]

Water change to get down to the correct level.

If your using API test kit, your ammonia test is probably turning grey after 30 or so minutes. That is a true indication of extremely high ammonia.

I use API master test kit and i compare it at five minutes like it says and it's 8ppm. But your saying as long as it's this hight it won't cycle?

[KeepNitReel]

I use API master test kit and i compare it at five minutes like it says and it's 8ppm. But your saying as long as it's this hight it won't cycle?

Yes I'm saying it won't cycle that high and if it does, your looking at am extremely long time.

What I was saying about the API ammonia test. Yes the results are read after 5 minutes per instructions like you stated. However what people don't know is if you just let the test tube sit for 30 minutes or so after reading the results, if your ammonia is extremely(super) high the dark green will turn grey.

[lmack7]

Yes I'm saying it won't cycle that high and if it does, your looking at am extremely long time.

What I was saying about the API ammonia test. Yes the results are read after 5 minutes per instructions like you stated. However what people don't know is if you just let the test tube sit for 30 minutes or so after reading the results, if your ammonia is extremely(super) high the dark green will turn grey.

Oh i see, I'll try that tommorow when I test. What should I do for ammonia? I was thinking daily water changes until it's low enough

[KeepNitReel]

If your reading 8ppm of ammonia then a 50% water change should give you about 4ppm. Do the WC in one shot

[Boston21]

8 PPM is really high, most likely because of the death's. Your going to have your cycle stall if you dont do a WC or will take forever to progress.

[brandon429]

Post a pic of your tank. It's a wrong test reading almost guaranteed. The surviving animals back that up. Cured live rock is cycled, we can tell by pics not an api reading. You are better off guessing than using api to judge ammonia.

[brandon429]

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2348056

How much of this applies to your tank?

I agree loss of multiple animals at once could cause a brief spike, but not the rock, it is cycled

You never want free ammonia in the presence of cured live rock, it kills the micro benthic life. Prime would neutralize it, further proof api is misleading here but we didn't need that detail to know you never use api to make decisions on ammonia action.

[brandon429]

After you post a tank pic it will be easy to chart your course. Full water change will fix any issues, make sure bioload is reasonable, quit testing for ammonia. Start dealing with algae.

[Pko9876]

x.x

[brandon429]

Pics will reveal everything :)

[KeepNitReel]

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2348056

How much of this applies to your tank?

I agree loss of multiple animals at once could cause a brief spike, but not the rock, it is cycled

You never want free ammonia in the presence of cured live rock, it kills the micro benthic life. Prime would neutralize it, further proof api is misleading here but we didn't need that detail to know you never use api to make decisions on ammonia action.
Yeah, dude in that thread neglected to mention that he used cured live rock until you brought it up later in the thread, SMH

[KeepNitReel]

After you post a tank pic it will be easy to chart your course. Full water change will fix any issues, make sure bioload is reasonable, quit testing for ammonia. Start dealing with algae.

I definitely overlooked the use of cured live rock in the original post.

You are on point with the 100% WC due to the cured live rock & not 50% as I advised.

[Pko9876]

Yeah, dude in that thread neglected to mention that he used cured live rock until you brought it up later in the thread, SMH

Sucks to be new sometimes, especially when people talk about you like this for it.

[brandon429]

my main concern is the wasted weeks and animals from not understanding how simple it is to transfer live rock from one tank to another. the biggest myth is that is starts a cycle over. there's nothing on cured live rock to die, usually :)

that being said, in one of these discussions on nr.com the poster informed us a few really big worms died, like the fireworms, and indeed that could be a source of brief ammonia coming from cured live rock so I guess there is an exception to every rule lol. its still pretty rare, and in that case her api was probably right in indicating some free ammonia :)

[Kyuss]

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2348056You never want free ammonia in the presence of cured live rock, it kills the micro benthic life.

there's nothing on cured live rock to die, usually :)

So which is it? :spin3:

[brandon429]

What does usually mean, in the context of the nr.com post I mentioned :)

I listed qualifying conditions to get ammonia, which are applicable here

[brandon429]

if you had worms in the rock, thats one sure way to kill them, dose ammonia or allow it to persist from one of the originating sources mentioned~ rather than splitting hairs, the takeaway is that dry surface cycling is for ammonia, and live surface cycling doesnt need it dosed, the bacteria is fully ready. another takeaway is google how others feel about a given test kit before basing large decisions on it for your tank. if you take home live rock thats cured, chances are massively in your favor nothing will die off because only coralline and a couple tubeworms are coming in.

[KeepNitReel]

Here's my take on test kits, not that anyone asked but here goes.

For me, the cheap API test kit is good for cycling purposes due to cost. I would never use my expensive kits on something simple as a cycle, the test only has to be close not accurate. API test is not so far off where it's impossible to tell what's going on with your cycle. Well unless your kit is expired then that's a different story.

[Cozwey]

I purchased an API master kit a while back and discovered it came with an NO3 for fresh water only. Silly of my to not realize this at the time. I switched to Salifert a while back much happier.

You are getting lots of good advice here.
Best way is to go SLOW and let the rock do what it is intended for.

[lmack7]

i did a %50 water change and just tested it. ammonia still reads at 8ppm. ill try and upload a pic asap. and the test tube didnt turn grey after 30 minutes just really dark blue

[KeepNitReel]

I purchased an API master kit a while back and discovered it came with an NO3 for fresh water only. Silly of my to not realize this at the time. I switched to Salifert a while back much happier.

You are getting lots of good advice here.
Best way is to go SLOW and let the rock do what it is intended for.

I thought the NO3 was good for both salt & fresh as well as ammonia & nitrite. I thought the only difference in the fresh & salt master kit was the high range Ph for salt & low range for fresh.

Guess I really don't pay to much attention to API since I only use it once in a blue

[lmack7]

252496

[Cozwey]

Well my guy at the LFS said "oops ya sorry" So I picked up Salifert online.
Wait I am sorry. It wasn't api it was Hagen. API gave me zero readings and then I switched and found I had Nitrates. It has been quite an ordeal on the test kits but I am good to go now.

[Cozwey]

Yep. Thats algae. Just leave it until you param's are good. Then drop the NEW CUC in.

[Mark9]

The tank looks really nice, great aquascaping.

[lmack7]

Yep. Thats algae. Just leave it until you param's are good. Then drop the NEW CUC in.

so i just leave it alone your saying? or do more wc?

[Mark9]

If your ammonia is over 8, you may be waiting a long time before the parameters are good.

[lmack7]

If your ammonia is over 8, you may be waiting a long time before the parameters are good.

i did a 50 % wc and it didnt lower it at all, what do you think i should do next? oh and also evrything on my lf is still alive including copepods and feather dusters

[Daimyo68]

i did a 50 % wc and it didnt lower it at all, what do you think i should do next? oh and also evrything on my lf is still alive including copepods and feather dusters



If you did a 50% water change and the ammonia did not drop at all then:
1 - You not doing the test correctly
or
2 - The kit is no good.

Make up some fresh saltwater and test it, (do not add it to the tank).
Does it read 8ppm? if yes, then you have your answer

[KeepNitReel]

i did a 50 % wc and it didnt lower it at all, what do you think i should do next? oh and also evrything on my lf is still alive including copepods and feather dusters

I think you missed the post where it was determined that a 100% water change would be the best in this situation.

Also the test didn't turn grey after 30 minutes because your using a different brand of test, only the API test will turn grey with super high ammonia. API ammonia reads green, you said your results where dark blue.

Like someone else said, your either doing the test wrong, test kit is no good or you have so much ammonia (more than 8ppm) that 50% was not enough to make a difference.

[lmack7]

I think you missed the post where it was determined that a 100% water change would be the best in this situation.

Also the test didn't turn grey after 30 minutes because your using a different brand of test, only the API test will turn grey with super high ammonia. API ammonia reads green, you said your results where dark blue.

Like someone else said, your either doing the test wrong, test kit is no good or you have so much ammonia (more than 8ppm) that 50% was not enough to make a difference.

it is an api test kit. its the API master saltwater test kit. and the results were dark blue after waiting 30 minutes. it read at dark green. i also tested with API test strips and it read 8ppm

[ati70cutlass]

as a marine biology student for three semesters my professor told me your tank will also pull bacteria from the air. it would just take several more weeks than adding a outside source of bacteria. as bad as I don't wanna say this because I think its b.s. but I used dr tims bottle of junk and had my 180 cycled in less than two weeks to where all params. were below detectable. again im not condoning the use of this but in my situation it worked. I have also heard of a lot of luck with microbacter and start smart. which I used in the store I help run for over a year. we did many installs with the product and fish loss was very minimal...

[lmack7]

as a marine biology student for three semesters my professor told me your tank will also pull bacteria from the air. it would just take several more weeks than adding a outside source of bacteria. as bad as I don't wanna say this because I think its b.s. but I used dr tims bottle of junk and had my 180 cycled in less than two weeks to where all params. were below detectable. again im not condoning the use of this but in my situation it worked. I have also heard of a lot of luck with microbacter and start smart. which I used in the store I help run for over a year. we did many installs with the product and fish loss was very minimal...

i used dr tims nano bacteria and thats when the ammonia spike began

[KeepNitReel]

After you post a tank pic it will be easy to chart your course. Full water change will fix any issues, make sure bioload is reasonable, quit testing for ammonia. Start dealing with algae.

Do the full water change like brandon429 advised!

[brandon429]

Did you know something dawned on me yesterday. For twenty years reef aquarists have been using the techniques discussed in here to set up instant reefs at all the MACNA conferences

The vendors don't set up their multi thousand dollar displays that run all weekend two weeks early to let them cycle... They simply bring in pre cycled substrate.

Adding Dr tims is ok if someone wants to, but cured live rock possessing all needed bacteria can just as easy do without if someone wants to go all natural. Just another example of quick start methodology that's always been an industry staple.

With very minimal transit care taken for the rock, you can simply move it from one tank to another without concern. All you have to do is a big water change, put up the ammonia test kit, and begin light reefing. Remove the algae before it wrecks your tank.

[jerpa]

Did you know something dawned on me yesterday. For twenty years reef aquarists have been using the techniques discussed in here to set up instant reefs at all the MACNA conferences

The vendors don't set up their multi thousand dollar displays that run all weekend two weeks early to let them cycle... They simply bring in pre cycled substrate.

Adding Dr tims is ok if someone wants to, but cured live rock possessing all needed bacteria can just as easy do without if someone wants to go all natural. Just another example of quick start methodology that's always been an industry staple.

With very minimal transit care taken for the rock, you can simply move it from one tank to another without concern. All you have to do is a big water change, put up the ammonia test kit, and begin light reefing. Remove the algae before it wrecks your tank.

Another angle is that many of these tanks are not set up long enough to need a properly established bio-filter. If the tank isn't going to be stocked to the gills, heavily fed, and will be up for only a few days then ammonia processing is moot.

There are ways to turn an empty aquarium into a fully stocked tank in a day but they are far from ideal IMO. When building a long term system I still think allowing the other bacterial processes to establish themselves is worth the extra time.

[brandon429]

Its okay to recycle cycled rock by waiting longer if someone wants to do that. No harm for sure. There is no bacterial loss in transit is the key takeaway, and moreso that ammonia from the transfer doesnt occur or they wouldn't be able to use anything live in tank as its more likely to show in the first few days vs waiting conveniently for the conference to end, then all of a sudden spiking to 8 ppm uncontrollably. I would agree fish are the key bioload and I always recommend ramping up slowly in all tanks by inputting fish slowly.

Corals I find to be inconsequential as to when you put them in. Others as we see prefer to wait months using arbitrary methods to discern when its ok to begin..

Out of curiosity I think I'm going to go buy an API test kit and run it on my tank just to see what t says. Have always wondered that since reading the threads where people get .5 ppm from them by testing distilled water

There is one -constant- repeating detail in these threads where ammonia seeps from barren live rock, its API

[mpeaden2]

take out all livestock and stop doing water changes. Begin testing params and when it's consistent slowly start adding livestock back.
Your not getting a full cycle because your doing water changes during cycle.

[brandon429]

internet advice ranges wildly but thats the fun in picking through all the details! its hard to know what to do when you are getting polar opposite advice lol but thats the fun part. the best trait one will ever, ever develop in the art and science of aquarium keeping is knowing how to be deliberate. absolutely being sure of whats going on, so you know exactly what to do. takes about a decade so get to choosin' :)

the cool part is, you can do either of the actions mentioned on this thread and in 4 mos your tank will be the same. incidentally, in 4 mos it will be absolutely wrecked with algae so get to cullin' too heh

[brandon429]

here we go round number #23,323 :)

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2349767

[lmack7]

okay so take out livestock and do a 100% wc?

[brandon429]

that only depends on what you choose, you have sets of totally opposing advice here. simply choose one. if you choose the big water change, and have no fish, then dont take anything out just literally drain the tank dry and refill with water you have correctly prepared. if there are fish, consider doing multiple back to back smaller changes to lessen their shock. I havent read of any fish being in here so far, so you appear good to go.

large water changes do not hurt bacteria, or cause a recycle, or hurt corals, provided you prepare the water correctly. they are great for streamlining waste issues in smaller tanks. in your case, its simply insurance. I dont think there is ammonia anyway, this just ensures there is none because it fully exports any.

[lmack7]

So API test kit is accurate I tested it on new water today and it read zero ammonia

[lmack7]

Nitrites look like they're beginning to rise. Ammonia still reads 8ppm :sad2:
But when I test ammonia with test stops it reads 2ppm ..

[brandon429]

Your problem now is not two test kits that report wildly different numbers, it's hesitation. Clear actions have been outlined repeatedly on what to do, you chose the non water change option and that is fine as its the most common method on the board there is nothing wrong with it. Wait weeks or months for the readings to lower. Expect to continue getting wild numbers reported and conflicting ammonia readings by using the cheapest possible test kits available. Good luck with your tank

In the end things will work out just fine. Since the algae is still left in your tank to continue and there is no full water change I'm stepping out as my methods won't apply in this case any further. Algae problems will be much more serious then test kits that will still show ammonia in your tank months from now, with no input source, and nitrate at the same time which indicates full cycling completed.

[lmack7]

Finally cycle is showing signs of improvement. Nitrite is rising fast and ammonia is dropping! :0

[KeepNitReel]

Finally cycle is showing signs of improvement. Nitrite is rising fast and ammonia is dropping! :0

What did you do to make this happen, you had two choices, which did you choose?

[lmack7]

What did you do to make this happen, you had two choices, which did you choose?
Well I did the 50% wc and waited and after a week results showed up. I'm still confused about the ammonia readings but they seem to be going down which is a good sign.