3rd fish bought. 3rd fish dead

[joshyross70]

Thes is my QT specs:

10gallon
HOB filter with seeded filter from DT(at least 6 weeks)
Some pvc pipes to provide hiding places
Thermometer

Acclimation process:
Let bag float for 15 min then use the drip acclimation for another 15min. Take some water out and do another 15 min of drip acclimation

I had bough a blue chromis from a store in phx az and a week later it died. It was already eating and swimming around. Cleaned the tank with fresh water and bleach. Let the tank sit over night then cleaned again with just freah water. Bought a purple firefish from the same store two weeks later and it died the next day. Did same cleaning process. Then decided to buy another purple firefish from a store in san diego ca and two days later it just dies. What in the heck am i doing wrong!!!?? Someone please help. I am getting extremely discouraged as i see people with very nice tanks that started at the same time as me and they have no problems

[Sk8r]

Are you using something like Prime to remove the bleach between fish?
And have you enough aeration? If these are shipped fish, don't acclimate more than 30 min with the bag open...
Also, check your heater for 'stray current'. That can be a real ghosty killer.

[joshyross70]

I am not using anything to remove bleach between fish. I was told to re clean it with just fresh water. For air i was told by several people on here that with the HOB it should be enough. How would i check for stray current??? What would be the proper way of cleaning the fish tank?

[Steventnguyen]

Get some kind dechlorine solution like prime and squirting it in the tank

[shifty51008]

the bleach can be a killer if not cleaned well enough, I agree to add some prime or amquil + to remove it.

for checking for stray current, take a multimeter, put the black prong in the ground plug of an outlet and the red in the tank with the heater running and check to see if there is current.

[joshyross70]

I do have amquil. So should i dump all the fresh water thats in it right now and just use amquil with a peper towel and clean all the inside? I will test out the thermometer later

[joshyross70]

????

[camblonie]

What's with all the cleaning? Do the fish look like they succumbed to something or are you just being cautious? Do you clean the filter each time and if so, are you monitoring ammonia?

[joshyross70]

Im cleaning it to be cautious and yes i also clean the filter aswell

[Shaummy]

So forgive me if you have done so...but have you read the sticky here that talks about how to get started?

Acclimation is one thing, but it seems that the state of the tank you are putting them into isn't really prepared/cycled/ready for fish.

Are you testing the water for things like Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate before or after introduction of fish?

Are you using tap water or RO/DI? If you are using tap..then definitely Prime/Amquel as there is likely to be chlorine in the water from the start which is deadly to fish. Then Ammonia comes into play...in a 10gal tank with no bacteria built up...it can rise quickly...also lethal to fish.

Give us just a little more info...we'll get you on the right path...seriously..read the sticky too!

Since this is a QT you are working with...do you have a DT now that's up and running with livestock? or is this the first ones trying to get through QT? Reason I ask, is that if your DT isn't really cycled either, running that filter in there won't really colonize it with anything.

[joshyross70]

So forgive me if you have done so...but have you read the sticky here that talks about how to get started?

Acclimation is one thing, but it seems that the state of the tank you are putting them into isn't really prepared/cycled/ready for fish.

Are you testing the water for things like Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate before or after introduction of fish?

Are you using tap water or RO/DI? If you are using tap..then definitely Prime/Amquel as there is likely to be chlorine in the water from the start which is deadly to fish. Then Ammonia comes into play...in a 10gal tank with no bacteria built up...it can rise quickly...also lethal to fish.

Give us just a little more info...we'll get you on the right path...seriously..read the sticky too!

Since this is a QT you are working with...do you have a DT now that's up and running with livestock? or is this the first ones trying to get through QT? Reason I ask, is that if your DT isn't really cycled either, running that filter in there won't really colonize it with anything.

Yes i have read all the stickys and read plenty of posts on here before i ever bought my DT. My DT has been cycled for about 6 weeks already and has diatoms all over the place. There is no fish in it due to all of them dying in my QT. My QT is setup with new mixed ro/di water. I let it sit for a day before i put it in my QT. I know that my QT does NOT have to be cycled. I have been reasured my alot of people abou that. I seeded my filter in my DT for about 4 weeks then it was put on my HOB filter which is used on my QT.

[rlm2005]

The seeded filter, did you also clean that with bleach? Are you matching the salinity of the water before you start acclimating? Fish are typically kept in lower salinity than our reef tanks. I make sure my qt is at a the same salinity as the water the fish came from.

[joshyross70]

No i did not clean the seeded filter with bleach. And yes salinity is being setup to match the stores.

[rlm2005]

Chromis dying isn't all that unusual. As for the firefish maybe they were sick or had something wrong or it could be an issue with the bleach. What are your stocking plans for your main tank?

[acabgd]

I know that my QT does NOT have to be cycled. I have been reasured my alot of people abou that.

Well, maybe you can then ask the same people to get you new fish, as their advice is apparently not working for you.

You don't really need to cycle the QT but you do need some bacteria and you definitely need to monitor ammonia levels. So, did you monitor the ammonia levels? Did you do water changes?

[joshyross70]

Well, maybe you can then ask the same people to get you new fish, as their advice is apparently not working for you.

You don't really need to cycle the QT but you do need some bacteria and you definitely need to monitor ammonia levels. So, did you monitor the ammonia levels? Did you do water changes?

Checked water every day there was a fish in it and never saw signs of any ammonia,nitrates, or nitrite. For bacteria i had my filter sponge seeded on my DT for about 4 weeks

[acabgd]

Hmmm... sounds really strange. Bleach could do it really, but if you washed the tank well then I suppose this should not be an issue. Honestly, I have no other idea.

[joshyross70]

2 Q's

1. If it were stray voltage wouldnt i feel any type of shock at all? I have stuck my hand in the QT but never felt anything.

2. I bought that tank of a pet store that was closing down and im pretty sure fish were not in it. It is because of that when i first got it that i cleaned it with bleach aswell. Do u think there could be something in the tank thats causing this?

[Shaummy]

No i did not clean the seeded filter with bleach. And yes salinity is being setup to match the stores.


Which is what salinity?

[mixedreefjunky]

The leaking voltage can be low enough that you dont feel it but is still strong enough to kill fish.
I would strongly recommended doing a vinegar bath after the bleach cleaning, pretty sure this is your issue.

[FTDelta]

Clean tank with VINEGAR and water, not bleach and water! Bleach residue is what killed your fish.

And for God's sake STOP CLEANING ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING WITH BLEACH!!!!!!

[3S1K]

How about not cleaning it? I converted a Fresh water tank to SW and all I did was rinse it with water and scrub it with a sponge. Maybe im missing something with this bleaching process.

[Capt'n T]

I assume you are buying online? When I read through the sticky on acclimation, it recommended NOT drip acclimating because of the ammonia build up from being shipped. Just temperature acclimate and match salinity, then drop them in the QT tank.

[joshyross70]

which is what salinity?

1.021

[joshyross70]

The leaking voltage can be low enough that you dont feel it but is still strong enough to kill fish.
I would strongly recommended doing a vinegar bath after the bleach cleaning, pretty sure this is your issue.

Forgot to mention that i also did that after my first fish died. But will try again

[joshyross70]

I assume you are buying online? When I read through the sticky on acclimation, it recommended NOT drip acclimating because of the ammonia build up from being shipped. Just temperature acclimate and match salinity, then drop them in the QT tank.

No i bought the fist two in phx az which is a 3 hour drive for me and the third from san diego ca which is also a 3 hour drive. Should i not drip acclimate then?

[joshyross70]

Thanks you all for the advise. Let me bother u with another question. Right now the tank is sitting full of fresh water with all the equipment in it at the bottom. I should dump the water and clean it all with a sponge and vinegar correct?

[3S1K]

I do have amquil. So should i dump all the fresh water thats in it right now and just use amquil with a peper towel and clean all the inside

You add it to your already made saltwater using the recommended dosage which should be on the bottle. Not on a paper towel like windex.

I would stop cleaning it also. Dump all the fresh water out of it. Setup your equipment, premix your water to the proper salinity and temperature in a bucket and add it to your tank. You could use some Bio spira for nitrifying bacteria.

[joshyross70]

You add it to your already made saltwater using the recommended dosage which should be on the bottle. Not on a paper towel like windex.

I would stop cleaning it also. Dump all the fresh water out of it. Setup your equipment, premix your water to the proper salinity and temperature in a bucket and add it to your tank. You could use some Bio spira for nitrifying bacteria.

So ur saying mixing it into the water im actually using for the QT? Im not cycling my QT. Just using seeded sponges from my already cycled DT. Is there any side effects with the amquil that i should keep an eye on?

[3S1K]

According to the website you add it to your tank as it will not hurt the fish. You can add it after you already added your water with the proper silinity. What does it say on the bottle?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2195588

Read that on how to setup a QT tank. If its an emergency QT that is not runnkng 24/7 fill it with water from your main Display Tank (DT for short). If it's a QT tank that is running all the time it needs to be cycled.

[shifty51008]

yes, just mix the amquel in the tank. my bottle says to use 5ml per 10 gal. I have used this stuff for my clownfish fry to keep ammonia in check between water changes, it doesn't hurt the fish at all even if you overdoes it a little.

[joshyross70]

Ok! So this is what i will do. I will dump all the freshwater off the tank and clean it with vinegar and water a little bit. Then i will add my new mixed saltwater with amquil. I will keep u guys posted on what happens

[mixedreefjunky]

I have never drip acclimated anything. I just float it for 30 minutes and then add a cup or two or water from my DT and let it sit another 20 or 30 minutes then I add it, fish or coral. I have never lost anything after adding it either.

[asylumdown]

This really doesn't seem like a mysterious issue to me, ad I don't think you need to go looking for voltage boogeymen when there seems to be a pretty well established reason why you're likely experiencing these troubles. I think what's happening here is a misunderstanding of what a 'cycle' and 'seeded' means.

First, you are correct that you technically do not need to 'cycle' a QT, but let's break down what a 'cycle' is. A cycle is simply a way of describing the process that happens when a source of ammonia is added to a body of water. It's the predictable rise and fall of concentration of first ammonia, then nitrite, then ever increasing concentrations of nitrate as different species of nitrifying bacteria colonize the various substrates present within a tank. One group of bacteria gets it's energy by oxidizing ammonia to produce nitrite, while another group oxidizes nitrite in to nitrate for energy.

The kicker here is that a 'cycle' is not something that you "do". A cycle will happen in every single new tank so long as there is a source of ammonia. Without the ammonia, a cycle will not happen, and the size of the bacterial population associated with a 'cycle' will only grow to match the available food.

You have not stated how you 'cycled' your display. There's a couple of ways to do it fishless, the most common being to rot a shrimp in the tank, or to add pure ammonia chloride directly, testing concentrations of ammonia and nitrite over time until they both consistently read zero. Is that what you did? If not, if all you did was add rock, sand, and water to a tank and wait, then you did not actually cycle your tank. If it's live rock, there may have been some die off to trigger a small ammonia cycle along with nitrifying bacteria already present, but if you weren't testing ammonia levels you can't say for sure if that happened. Also, if you aren't adding a food source for those bacteria (ghost feeing the tank with pellets, rotting shrimp, pure ammonia, etc, etc, etc) your population of nitrifying bacteria in the display will actually have been decreasing over time. True nitrifying bacteria can't form spores like a lot of the heterotrophic bacteria can when conditions get bad (i.e. a lack of food), so if there ceases to be a supply of ammonia in the water, the entire population will just shrink.

Second, you said you 'seeded' your QT filter media in a fish less display for 6 weeks. People throw the term 'seeded' around a lot on forums, and I think they generally over-estimate what that's capable of achieving.

Without knowing exactly how you cycled the main display/are maintaining its nitrogen processing capacity, here's a couple hypothetical scenarios:

1. You did not actually add a source of ammonia to your display, you just added rocks, sand and water then waited. In this case, no cycle actually happened, or if one did happen it was small and the rock was likely overwhelmingly the substrate upon which it occurred. There would be very little or anything in terms of nitrifying bacteria in your QT filter media, no matter how long you left it in there

2. You did add a source of ammonia to the main display - in this case the 'cycle' would have taken place pretty much everywhere in your whole display tank. Hypothetically if you achieved ammonia concentrations in the display of 2ppm, the relative proportion of bacteria that would have grown in your 'seeded' filter media compared to the rocks and sand (with many millions of times the surface area) would be tiny, in no way enough to process the nitrogen waste from a single fish without another cycle taking place in the QT.

Where I'm going is that your first fish dying after a week should be telling you something. That's about as long as it takes for ammonia levels to reach lethal concentrations for a hardy fish like a chromis. When people say you don't need to 'cycle' a QT, they mean that since a QT isn't going to be a permanent home for anything, you don't want to go through weeks of preparing the QT for every new fish. They are not saying that ammonia levels in the QT will not reach lethal levels and don't need to be controlled. A cycle will happen whether you want it to or not if a fish is present, and I do not believe that there is any possible scenario in which the filter media you think is 'seeded' has anywhere near the ammonia processing capacity to handle the waste produced by even one fish and the associated feeding. If you had tested the water the day your chromis died with an API ammonia test kit, I would bet that the test solution would have turned a dark forest green.

This is a very easy thing to test for and control. First, you need to be testing the water in your QT for ammonia every day. You have to treat it as though you are cycling a sterile tank using a living fish as the source of ammonia. As soon as your test kit begins to detect ammonia (likely on the second day if you're feeding), you need to add a product like Prime or Amquel, then re-test. The ammonia will still be there and available to bacteria, and the cycle will still take place, it will just be in a form that is relatively non-toxic to fish. Use a salicylate based test kit like APIs ammonia test because Prime or Amquel doesn't interfere with it.

Also, stop draining and bleaching everything. Traces of bleach may very well have killed your second fish, fire fish can be pretty sensitive (it also might just not have been in great shape, I didn't realize that all the fire fish I had seen in store tanks were emaciated until I got one, fattened it up, and saw what they look like at a healthy weight). Furthermore, as I mentioned earlier, a 'cycle' happens everywhere. If your QT has any sort of a substrate, or decorations, the bacteria that process nitrogenous wastes are growing on all of them, not just in the proscribed little box of your HOB filter media. Every time you drain and bleach the tank you're eliminating any accumulated ammonia processing capacity that has developed outside of your filter, which can be significant.

Finally, quarantine tanks are tricky. If they're not permanently running and being managed as though they're an actual aquarium, you will always be trying to control for water quality at the same time that you're doing whatever it is with the fish you need to do in QT. Some of the treatments you might have to give your fish in QT can torpedo the bacteria that process nitrogenous waste (hypo can kill a large number of them) while treatments to control for water quality like prime can make some copper products like Seachem's cupramine lethal at recommended doses. However, you're definitely doing the right thing by having a QT, I wish more people who were just starting out were like you!

[FTDelta]

Want to find a really easy aquarium tool used for acclimating fish? Get this:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+21246+20398&pcatid=20398

[joshyross70]

This really doesn't seem like a mysterious issue to me, ad I don't think you need to go looking for voltage boogeymen when there seems to be a pretty well established reason why you're likely experiencing these troubles. I think what's happening here is a misunderstanding of what a 'cycle' and 'seeded' means.

First, you are correct that you technically do not need to 'cycle' a QT, but let's break down what a 'cycle' is. A cycle is simply a way of describing the process that happens when a source of ammonia is added to a body of water. It's the predictable rise and fall of concentration of first ammonia, then nitrite, then ever increasing concentrations of nitrate as different species of nitrifying bacteria colonize the various substrates present within a tank. One group of bacteria gets it's energy by oxidizing ammonia to produce nitrite, while another group oxidizes nitrite in to nitrate for energy.

The kicker here is that a 'cycle' is not something that you "do". A cycle will happen in every single new tank so long as there is a source of ammonia. Without the ammonia, a cycle will not happen, and the size of the bacterial population associated with a 'cycle' will only grow to match the available food.

You have not stated how you 'cycled' your display. There's a couple of ways to do it fishless, the most common being to rot a shrimp in the tank, or to add pure ammonia chloride directly, testing concentrations of ammonia and nitrite over time until they both consistently read zero. Is that what you did? If not, if all you did was add rock, sand, and water to a tank and wait, then you did not actually cycle your tank. If it's live rock, there may have been some die off to trigger a small ammonia cycle along with nitrifying bacteria already present, but if you weren't testing ammonia levels you can't say for sure if that happened. Also, if you aren't adding a food source for those bacteria (ghost feeing the tank with pellets, rotting shrimp, pure ammonia, etc, etc, etc) your population of nitrifying bacteria in the display will actually have been decreasing over time. True nitrifying bacteria can't form spores like a lot of the heterotrophic bacteria can when conditions get bad (i.e. a lack of food), so if there ceases to be a supply of ammonia in the water, the entire population will just shrink.

Second, you said you 'seeded' your QT filter media in a fish less display for 6 weeks. People throw the term 'seeded' around a lot on forums, and I think they generally over-estimate what that's capable of achieving.

Without knowing exactly how you cycled the main display/are maintaining its nitrogen processing capacity, here's a couple hypothetical scenarios:

1. You did not actually add a source of ammonia to your display, you just added rocks, sand and water then waited. In this case, no cycle actually happened, or if one did happen it was small and the rock was likely overwhelmingly the substrate upon which it occurred. There would be very little or anything in terms of nitrifying bacteria in your QT filter media, no matter how long you left it in there

2. You did add a source of ammonia to the main display - in this case the 'cycle' would have taken place pretty much everywhere in your whole display tank. Hypothetically if you achieved ammonia concentrations in the display of 2ppm, the relative proportion of bacteria that would have grown in your 'seeded' filter media compared to the rocks and sand (with many millions of times the surface area) would be tiny, in no way enough to process the nitrogen waste from a single fish without another cycle taking place in the QT.

Where I'm going is that your first fish dying after a week should be telling you something. That's about as long as it takes for ammonia levels to reach lethal concentrations for a hardy fish like a chromis. When people say you don't need to 'cycle' a QT, they mean that since a QT isn't going to be a permanent home for anything, you don't want to go through weeks of preparing the QT for every new fish. They are not saying that ammonia levels in the QT will not reach lethal levels and don't need to be controlled. A cycle will happen whether you want it to or not if a fish is present, and I do not believe that there is any possible scenario in which the filter media you think is 'seeded' has anywhere near the ammonia processing capacity to handle the waste produced by even one fish and the associated feeding. If you had tested the water the day your chromis died with an API ammonia test kit, I would bet that the test solution would have turned a dark forest green.

This is a very easy thing to test for and control. First, you need to be testing the water in your QT for ammonia every day. You have to treat it as though you are cycling a sterile tank using a living fish as the source of ammonia. As soon as your test kit begins to detect ammonia (likely on the second day if you're feeding), you need to add a product like Prime or Amquel, then re-test. The ammonia will still be there and available to bacteria, and the cycle will still take place, it will just be in a form that is relatively non-toxic to fish. Use a salicylate based test kit like APIs ammonia test because Prime or Amquel doesn't interfere with it.

Also, stop draining and bleaching everything. Traces of bleach may very well have killed your second fish, fire fish can be pretty sensitive (it also might just not have been in great shape, I didn't realize that all the fire fish I had seen in store tanks were emaciated until I got one, fattened it up, and saw what they look like at a healthy weight). Furthermore, as I mentioned earlier, a 'cycle' happens everywhere. If your QT has any sort of a substrate, or decorations, the bacteria that process nitrogenous wastes are growing on all of them, not just in the proscribed little box of your HOB filter media. Every time you drain and bleach the tank you're eliminating any accumulated ammonia processing capacity that has developed outside of your filter, which can be significant.

Finally, quarantine tanks are tricky. If they're not permanently running and being managed as though they're an actual aquarium, you will always be trying to control for water quality at the same time that you're doing whatever it is with the fish you need to do in QT. Some of the treatments you might have to give your fish in QT can torpedo the bacteria that process nitrogenous waste (hypo can kill a large number of them) while treatments to control for water quality like prime can make some copper products like Seachem's cupramine lethal at recommended doses. However, you're definitely doing the right thing by having a QT, I wish more people who were just starting out were like you!

I did cycle my DT with a piece of shrimp over two months ago. My ammonia reached over 8ppm at some point. After doing a big water change the cycle continued and has been at all zeros since cycle finished. I am ghost feeding every other day to keep my bacteria working. Plus i do have two nassaurius snails and a green emerald crab in there that eat the pellets im throwing in the DT aswell. When ive had a fish in my QT i have tested for ammonia and never saw any signs of it

[joshyross70]

Want to find a really easy aquarium tool used for acclimating fish? Get this:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+21246+20398&pcatid=20398

I actually have the doradon acclimation device which helps hold the bag float in the QT and has a collection cup that u can turn a knob on for how fast water drops

[camblonie]

Sounds like you're on the right track Josh. Ditch the bleach, don't worry about cleaning after a fish dies unless you know why it died. Maybe try a cheap damsel and even start with only a heater and an airstone to make sure your HOB filter isn't leaching bleach.