Tank is screwed thinking about a redo, AGAIN

[kupadupapupa]

I was hoping I can get some input on what I should do. I'm having so many problems with my tank that's is not even funny. None of my corals ever grew for the past 2 years, every lps/sps died, one of my fish just got Popeye, algae keeps growing on the sand bed and I have completely exhausted all other options. Ive always kept up on my maintenance and ran gfo since setting up the tank. The only thing I can think of is to tear down my tank, take out the sand, and possibly buy all new sand and live rock.

My question is should I buy all new base rock and some seed rock or should I take out my existing rock and do an acid bath to purge the rock? And maybe buy some live rock to put in the tank while the other rock is cooking so the fish have some hiding spaces. Also I'm pretty sure I used kitchen and bath silicone, is that something that could have been absorbed into the rock or most likely not?

[TKCC]

Can you send a picture? When you test your water what readings are you getting?

[kupadupapupa]

Can you send a picture? When you test your water what readings are you getting?

This is the only picture I have right now but it shows you the algae problem. When I test the water the tests come back ok:

Tds 0
Ph 7.8-7.9
Alk 10
Cal 450
Mag 1600
Phosphate .07
Nitrate 0.2

The phosphate reading is high because because I had my reactor down for a few days doing maintenance, I have since put it back but I ran out of Hanna reagent and am waiting to get some in. I've tested the p04 before and it was at 0.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/28/e9eve9ub.jpg

[mixedreefjunky]

The ph is a bit low for my liking. what is your temp, salinity, nitrite, ammonia if any?
Redoing the whole tank will not help much except for at first if you do not get to the heart of your problem. IMO
What kind of lighting do you have? Is there a grounding probe in the tank for the fish?

[Drae]

I'm pretty sure I used kitchen and bath silicone, is that something that could have been absorbed into the rock or most likely not?

If the silicone you used is the "mildew resistant" silicone that could be your problem right there. If everything has died on you then there's likely something that caused ammonia or something was extremely unstable (temp swings maybe). Also, how do you measure your sg?

[kupadupapupa]

The ph is a bit low for my liking. what is your temp, salinity, nitrite, ammonia if any?
Redoing the whole tank will not help much except for at first if you do not get to the heart of your problem. IMO
What kind of lighting do you have? Is there a grounding probe in the tank for the fish?

Temp is 78, salinity 1.026, nitrite 0, ammonia didnt show up either. I have 3 reef radiance fuul spectrum led fixtures that have 55 3 watt leds.
No grounding probe, my volt meter only shows .3-.4.




If the silicone you used is the "mildew resistant" silicone that could be your problem right there. If everything has died on you then there's likely something that caused ammonia or something was extremely unstable (temp swings maybe). Also, how do you measure your sg?

Salinity is measured with a refractmeter. The fish are doing very well except the one that just got Popeye. And I should say that soft coral doesn't die in my tank but it grows at a snails pace. For example I've had one ricordea that has been splitting into two for the past 2 years, zoas that only grew 5 polyps, and a green nepthea and cabbage leather that have remained the same ever since I bought them. Its the lps and sps that rtn/stn on me from the moment I put it in the tank. But I would be happy enough if I can get the soft coral to grow at a normal pace.

I also have a ten gallon stand alone frag tank with no sump and no bad silicone and no sandbed, only live rock and those corals in there aren't growing either.

[Reef Frog]

Could the salt you are using be at fault? Have you ruled out SPS & LPS parasites? Is your RODI unit in good working order? I sure hope you can sort things out.

[kupadupapupa]

Could the salt you are using be at fault? Have you ruled out SPS & LPS parasites? Is your RODI unit in good working order? I sure hope you can sort things out.

I don't think the salt is bad. I've been using seachem reef and I haven't read many bad things about it. As far as parasites go I haven't ruled them out but I would love to get my soft corals growing before I start really worrying about parasites on lps. I've also just ordered all new ro/di filters and the spectrapure silica buster so maybe that will take care of that brown dusty algae on the sandbed.

[kupadupapupa]

I tested my frag tank which has live rock from my main display that has been in there for 3 weeks and the phosphate read 0 on my Hanna meter. The live rock in there was used as seed rock for my Marco rocks base and has been in my display for the same amount of time so I would assume that my base rock also would read 0. Now I have to find out why corals in my frag tank aren't doing good either.

[Tszat]

I would say, try to eliminate the commonalities between your two tanks and then treat them individually.

To eliminate the commonalities, could you possibly change out your LR in the frag tank and do a major water change.

[kupadupapupa]

I would say, try to eliminate the commonalities between your two tanks and then treat them individually.

To eliminate the commonalities, could you possibly change out your LR in the frag tank and do a major water change.

Sounds good. Does a frag tank even need live rock, what if I just pull the live rock and leave a bare tank? I wouldn't need the filtration of it if I'm running an hob filter.

[Spongebob20]

I don't think the salt is bad. I've been using seachem reef and I haven't read many bad things about it. As far as parasites go I haven't ruled them out but I would love to get my soft corals growing before I start really worrying about parasites on lps. I've also just ordered all new ro/di filters and the spectrapure silica buster so maybe that will take care of that brown dusty algae on the sandbed.

you said you just ordered new filters, could the filters have been bad on your unit for a couple months without you knowing? PH is a little but idk if low enough to cause all those issues.

What you're experiencing has to be the cause of something important in the tank not being right and that has a big affect on your reef. To me that sounds like something in the water either from bad tap water that isn't getting filtered as much as it should, or something leaching out of the rock, stray voltage, or some other toxic chemical that is somehow finding it's way into your tank, maybe from the silicone or something. Not sure if the one you used is harmful or not, maybe someone else has the answer.

Do you put your hands in the tank often?

[Tszat]

You don't need live rock as long as you have some sort of filtration. What corals do you have in your frag?

[kupadupapupa]

You don't need live rock as long as you have some sort of filtration. What corals do you have in your frag?

Favia, gsp, frogspawn, ZOA's, palys, and some sort of sps that I forgot the name of.

[Good_GReef]

There's a ton of horror stories online about bath silicone having fungicide and mildew killing agents built in and crashing reef tanks. It's not good stuff apparently.

[dartier]

There's a ton of horror stories online about bath silicone having fungicide and mildew killing agents built in and crashing reef tanks. It's not good stuff apparently.

Yup, you need to make sure to only use Type II silicon. You will know if it is safe by reading the label. If it warns that Acetic Acid (E.g. Vinegar) is released during the curing process it is safe. The Type I (E.g. Kitchen & Bath) has fungicides to prevent mildew and will cause all sorts of issues.

Dennis

[kupadupapupa]

There's a ton of horror stories online about bath silicone having fungicide and mildew killing agents built in and crashing reef tanks. It's not good stuff apparently.

If the silicone is the problem could the fungicide have soaked into my live rock which is causing the corals in the frag tank to not expand either? If so, will the chemical leach out or is my live rock destroyed?

[sabo]

Also don't forget to check if your water supply doses chloramines.

[kupadupapupa]

Also don't forget to check if your water supply doses chloramines.

I called the city and they said they dont use chloramine.

[dartier]

Temp is 78, salinity 1.026, nitrite 0, ammonia didnt show up either. I have 3 reef radiance fuul spectrum led fixtures that have 55 3 watt leds.

And I should say that soft coral doesn't die in my tank but it grows at a snails pace. For example I've had one ricordea that has been splitting into two for the past 2 years, zoas that only grew 5 polyps, and a green nepthea and cabbage leather that have remained the same ever since I bought them. Its the lps and sps that rtn/stn on me from the moment I put it in the tank. But I would be happy enough if I can get the soft coral to grow at a normal pace.

I also have a ten gallon stand alone frag tank with no sump and no bad silicone and no sandbed, only live rock and those corals in there aren't growing either.

I am also still getting the hang of keeping corals alive. Although you can read about it, sometimes going through the process and finding the sweet spot for success is what needed for the individual reef keeper. So I don't yet have the recipe for success, but I can share my observations in the hopes that you can see a similarity in what you have experienced and gain some insight into your own situation.

A good analogy is that of a pendulum. At the bottom dead centre of the pendulums arc is the zone for success. The width of the zone varies for the type of coral you wish to keep. For softies the zone is quite wide. For LPS it is narrower, and for SPS it is narrower still (some would say razor thin :) ). Keeping the pendulum from swinging out side the zone leads to success with a particular coral type.

The things that cause movement in the pendulum are your tanks parameters. Whether it be Salinity, light, Alkalinity, temperature, NO3, PO4, etc. they all push the pendulum too and fro.

The parameter that I have found that has the biggest impact on all coral types is Alkalinity, and specifically how stable you are able to keep your alkalinity. Too much change in alkalinity in too short of a time spells certain failure for LPS / SPS. So dosing to keep your alkalinity in a good range for both LPS and SPS is crucial (in my observations). I would suggest about 8.5 is a good target for this.

The next parameters that I have found to be important are PO4 and NO3. If these are too high you end up with nuisance Algae, brown corals and / or RTN/STN. If they are too low, you end up with your corals starving, bleached corals and / or RTN/STN. I have found that PO4 is best kept between 0.02 and 0.08 and NO3 between 0.25 and 5.0. In my tank right now, I am actually dosing NO3 to keep it at 0.25 otherwise it drops to 0.0. This helps me to keep my PO4 down without using GFO.

The next parameter is light, and especially for people who run LEDs. It looks like you are running 3 150W fixtures. I am not sure what size of thank you have, but are the fixtures dimmable, and if so what percentage are you running them at? For LEDs it is really,really easy too provide too much light. Especially if you keep your PO4 and NO3 near zero. The PAR given off by LEDs is quite subtle because it is so spectrum specific. To our eyes it is dim, but to our corals it is a burning ray of death. In my observations if a new frag opens for the first few days and then open less and less, it may be getting too much light. Too much light can lead to bleached corals and or RTN/STN. Too little leads to brown corals and / or RTN/STN.

The next important parameters are Calcium and Magnesium. They go hand in hand with Alkalinity. They have to be kept in balance or you will have a precipitation event and your alkalinity will plummet along with your calcium falling out of solution. People who struggle to keep their alkalinity and calcium stable often find their magnesium is too low (although your is on the high side). Corals seem to be less sensitive to changes in Ca and Mg than they are to Alk.

My best guess as to what is causing you issues would be light levels (too much?) and PO3/NO3 levels. Your corals may be starving unless you are target feeding them if your PO4/NO3 are near zero.

Anyway I hope you figure it out. Also I would urge you not to do a re-start and use this as a learning opportunity to find the zone for your tank that leads to success/growth .. unless of course you did use silicon containing fungicide in which case that really needs to be dealt with.

Dennis

[kupadupapupa]

You bring up very good points Dennis and even after over 5 years of keeping reefs its still a challenge especially now with this new led lighting. The one thing I observed in my tank was that lighting levels had no drastic impact on corals. I've kept my lights at 100% and I've kept them at 10-20% and what I've noticed is that softies lps don't expand more and sps don't brown out which they should with lack of light. With low light levels my frogspawn and ricordea should have expanded more and looked bigger, instead it retracted and one of the heads fell off and the ricordea was still about the size of a quarter.

I'm still not fully convinced that its lack of nutrients either because the lps/sps dies within weeks, usually lack of nutrients in coral would take much longer to start to recede. Ive also tried spot feeding them for a few weeks with reef chili and i didnt notice a change. I did have many alk swings back then and since that I've started dosing and kept my levels stable.

Its just a mystery that may never be fixed honestly, I don't have money for professional lab testing for every chemical in my water that may be doing this. My 55g tank before this had the same problem and my 10g frag tank that I set up a month ago has this problem now too. All the tanks had completely different equipment, different water and still the same problem. I wish I was just overlooking something but I think everyone on the internet covered just about everything possible.

[dartier]

Hmm, different tanks, different equipment, same problem. There has to be a commonality between them. The only thing I think of is perhaps your RO/DI is not working as expected or a base level tool (like a refractometer) is out of adjustment. Have you taken a water sample to your local LFS? They will normally test it for free. This would help to test your results to see if your tests are accurate. Oh, and what brand of test are you using? Some (like API) are known for being very unreliable at the low end.

The fact you can't get softies to grow is weird. They only require light and water on the dirtier side. However they still need the right salinity and reasonably stable alk or they will melt and disappear.

Dennis

[kupadupapupa]

Hmm, different tanks, different equipment, same problem. There has to be a commonality between them. The only thing I think of is perhaps your RO/DI is not working as expected or a base level tool (like a refractometer) is out of adjustment. Have you taken a water sample to your local LFS? They will normally test it for free. This would help to test your results to see if your tests are accurate. Oh, and what brand of test are you using? Some (like API) are known for being very unreliable at the low end.

The fact you can't get softies to grow is weird. They only require light and water on the dirtier side. However they still need the right salinity and reasonably stable alk or they will melt and disappear.

Dennis

I'm going to take some water to the fish store to get it tested for sure. Right now I use salifert test kits and a Hanna meter for phosphate.

It is weird that softies won't grow because when I started out with reef tanks before I had this problem I was using tap water out of the same house and the corals grew like crazy, so its possible that the ro/di is stripping things out that the corals need to grow.

Another weird thing I found is that we use the ro/di water for our humidifier and when we run it me and my wife wake up with very achy muscles and have this sickly feeling almost like the mineral deficient water vapor is stripping us of minerals in the body. Maybe the metal/mineral deficient water is pulling everything out of the corals to go back to its natural state.

[GroktheCube]

Salt mix adds back minerals removed by the RO/DI in the cirrect proportions.

Generally speaking, dissolved minerals cannot evaporate, so the humidity in air is almost pure H2O no matter what the mineral content of the water in the humidifier, so that's not it. There is definitely no way the evaporated RODI water is robbing your body of anything.

[dwolson2]

I haven't noticed anyone ask but what are you using for flow?

[kupadupapupa]

I haven't noticed anyone ask but what are you using for flow?

I'm using two mp40 on reefcrest. And I also have the return pump pushing some water.

[dwolson2]

Is there anything putting copper in the water?
I really have no idea what it could be, I am just spitballing at this point.

[kupadupapupa]

Is there anything putting copper in the water?
I really have no idea what it could be, I am just spitballing at this point.

I hear you, there's nothing most can do at this point. There's no copper and I also ran a poly filter and it didn't pick anything up.

[nmbeg]

Are you and your family inadvertently putting anything in the water like hand lotion, air fresheners, etc?

Possibly a pest in the tanks? Try looking at nightime with a flashlight.

[Breadman03]

I had to prove to my wife that her Scentsy was causing issues in the tank. She thought I was just being contrary.

[Tszat]

I had to prove to my wife that her Scentsy was causing issues in the tank. She thought I was just being contrary.

How was that happening? And, how did you prove it to her?
Interesting....

[kupadupapupa]

Are you and your family inadvertently putting anything in the water like hand lotion, air fresheners, etc?

Possibly a pest in the tanks? Try looking at nightime with a flashlight.

Not to my knowledge. I try to wash my hands each time, now I have aqua gloves so I'm never putting in bare hands.

[kupadupapupa]

I'm not sure if this may be the issue but for the longest time I've been using a 1 micron sediment filter and a 0.6 micron carbon block. Could it be possible that the sediment filter is letting through particles which clog up the carbon block faster making certain chemicals pass through it and also not getting picked up by the di resin?

[Breadman03]

How was that happening? And, how did you prove it to her?
Interesting....

The scent is very strong during the first day of using a new piece of wax. My tank would always look terrible that day. She still thinks I'm crazy, but she now just turns it on for a short period for a couple days so that it doesn't mess up the tank.

I'm not sure if this may be the issue but for the longest time I've been using a 1 micron sediment filter and a 0.6 micron carbon block. Could it be possible that the sediment filter is letting through particles which clog up the carbon block faster making certain chemicals pass through it and also not getting picked up by the di resin?

The carbon becomes exhausted over time and should be replaced periodically. I've heard 6 months tossed around, but it is dependent upon your usage and what kind of stuff is in your water. If it's been a while, fresh filters are a good idea.