PDA

View Full Version : Corrals, taken from nature?!


star99
12/03/2013, 08:43 PM
Most websites I read say that the corrals are taken directly from nature?

Isn't that like... very long to reproduce and super important to the marine life?

Please tell me that many of you "reproduce" corrals and that everyone here that owns corrals isn't endangering the seas?

I am so "corral-dumb" that I thought most of them were reproduced at the LFS or maybe more realistically, the "warehouses". I certainly didn't think they came directly from the wild!!! It is making me feel SO guilty about wanting some..

Oh good, I see that Liveaquaria.com has some from aquaculture.. but I wonder what percentage of the corrals on the market really come from culture versus wild... I am sure my dad will ask whenever he come visit and sees my aquarium, he love to dive in australia and loves the corrals... ouch.. I can already feel the tension!

SpartaReef
12/03/2013, 09:34 PM
Ive never seen a wild corral...

But corals grow fast... Several inches per year sometimes... Look it up. You've got a LOT to learn...

tektite
12/04/2013, 08:16 PM
The great majority of corals in LFS are from the wild. Especially LPS. Though there are many maricultured SPS that are grown in the ocean specifically for sale that helps with demand there.

FYI, one "r" in "coral" :)

djberg
12/04/2013, 08:56 PM
Yeah I just made this realization, pretty much on a mission to only put things in my tank that were born or propagated out of the ocean. And on the plus side, usually things cloned are hardier or more resilient.

syrinx
12/04/2013, 09:37 PM
There is no difference whether a guy snaps it off, or a hurricane breaks it off- its all a natural process. Of course we should try to grow and trade what we can, but there is no harm in collecting for the aquarium trade.

Sk8r
12/04/2013, 11:52 PM
When my 54g reef was operating, I was giving away about as much hammer coral as I had left in the tank every 6 months and it still looked like a parade float, wall to wall. I traded it to stores until they were full up. I actually had to toss a foot square of GSP because I couldn't find a taker. If you stick to varieties that will reproduce in your tank and have a good 'gifting' network, you can grow coral. I started with 3 heads of hammer and by the time I broke down that reef and traded off most of it (I still have some left) I had well above a hundred heads. Every time a hundred heads go through a division, you've got to start looking for new people who need hammer coral...

Beandawg
12/05/2013, 12:35 AM
Yeah I just made this realization, pretty much on a mission to only put things in my tank that were born or propagated out of the ocean. And on the plus side, usually things cloned are hardier or more resilient.


I'm not quite sure I understand what you are saying. I *think* you mean that, you will only purchase aqua-cultured and captive bred specimens for your tank. Is that right?

madweazl
12/05/2013, 01:21 AM
I do aquacultured when possible but if I find something I like, I snatch it up regardless.

Reef Frog
12/07/2013, 11:47 PM
Over collecting for the aquarium trade certainly does occur in certain locations. But compared to the vast areas of coral reefs world wide, collecting operations are concentrated where transportation and buyer networks exist. Huge areas never or only rarely see a collector. This is a popular hobby, but its not nearly big enough to be a major negative factor in the big picture like other man made threats to the world's reefs. Certain species are rare and should not be collected, but these are already protected by international treaties.

Like a poster above indicated, your average hurricane or typhoon can eliminate more coral in one day than all the world's reef keepers could do over many many years. And the damaged reef will regenerate itself over time.

Yes, bad collecting practices still occur in some places, but limited, responsible, regulated collecting in designated areas is a sustainable practice. And while I can't prove it, I feel more & more corals in the marketplace are maricultured or aquacultured by the trade and hobbyists themselves. Mariculture operations can provide jobs for people in developing countries and gives them incentive to protect their natural resources. ORA provides a good example.

The real threats to our coral reefs are many: Ocean warming/acidification, urbanization next to coast lines, agricultural, sewage & other run off, various types of pollution, ship accidents, invasive species, over fishing and new resorts & the cruise ship industry are a few examples. Wild coral collecting is pretty far down on the list.

star99
12/08/2013, 07:07 AM
I really can't agree that what men takes from nature can't compare with a hurricane. Of course not, that's not the point. We know that forest fires can be beneficial and regenerate the forest, but I am not going to light fires everywhere for that reason. Ok my comparison may be shitty, but it's not because nature can do worst that it's ok for us to do it. And (I don't know much about coral (with one "R" hehe)) but if a hurricane detaches a coral, won't it remain in the water and reattach somewhere else?

And yes I agree that coral collecting is far from being the biggest threat to coral, but I can't do much against the other threats. I can buy aqua-culture grown corals instead of wild picked coral and at least feel better about that ;) It is just something I never thought about before I started to look at the different types of corals I could have in my small tank and found they were taken from Asia, Australia, etc..

I had no idea LFS would buy the coral divisions! Good. I will search for people selling divisions of their own but it seems like saltwater is not as popular in Quebec as in the USA. Or maybe I haven't found the right place yet, but the Quebec forums I have looked at, directed me here for some pretty basic info on saltwater that I was asking for. But, I will continue to search and maybe I'll find someone willing to sell/trade corals eventually :)

Lateralus
12/08/2013, 12:04 PM
Good luck. Aquacultured corals are gonna be your best bet simply for their hardiness.

syrinx
12/08/2013, 12:28 PM
My point is that the act of a man, or a hurricane- is the same- completely natural. We are not above nature- we are a part of it. Being concious does not imply dominion. The fact is we are at the mercy of the planet, not the other way around.

Beandawg
12/08/2013, 12:47 PM
ok...

Joe0813
12/08/2013, 02:16 PM
There is no difference whether a guy snaps it off, or a hurricane breaks it off- its all a natural process. Of course we should try to grow and trade what we can, but there is no harm in collecting for the aquarium trade.

actually there is a huge difference if someone breaks off a piece and whether a hurricane does.

keegoaz
12/08/2013, 08:00 PM
i would worry more about collection of wild fish species. Many people who are actually doing the collection will release poisons on the reef to paralyze fish then take there pick of the "select species" that they want or will get the best price for. we all have to remember to think about where our animals are coming from. many of these locations are impoverished and the people will do whatever it takes to make some money. It is nice to see some countries and locations stepping up and protecting there marine ecosystems. look at Hawaii for example (dont shoot me for this because i know there is a huge love for many Hawaiian species.) They have banned the collection of many species they feel are at risk and they strictly enforce them. Corals are pretty resilient but we do have to make sure that we are also putting back into the reefs we are taking away from, that's where much of the mariculture industry comes in. I know in the Philippines they collect small colonies from the reef then grow them and propagate them next to the reef on racks at the same depth they were harvested from. Once they have medium sized colonies they take some for sale, leave some on the racks to continue propagating and return new colonies back to the reef.

keegoaz
12/08/2013, 08:01 PM
actually there is a huge difference if someone breaks off a piece and whether a hurricane does.

I agree. The part where it stays in the ocean :debi:

ReefPharmer
12/08/2013, 09:50 PM
I agree. The part where it stays in the ocean :debi:

There is absolutely no guarantee that the broken piece will reattach and start growing again. On the reef, its more likely to fall into another colony and die due to stings/coral warfare.

keegoaz
12/08/2013, 10:07 PM
There is absolutely no guarantee that the broken piece will reattach and start growing again. On the reef, its more likely to fall into another colony and die due to stings/coral warfare.

If corals are that close they should already be stinging and fighting one another. Most reef growth occurs during storms when corals are broke and moved around by the surge in tidal action. I lived in Puerto rico last winter and when there weren't waves to surf we would go spear fish the reefs at the surf breaks, there were thousands of broken colonies from wave action and thousands of fresh baby colony's attaching themselves to rocks adjacent to the parent corals. Most of the time no more then a few feet away where they would get stuck in a grove or crack. sometimes we would even find colonies over a foot long that would break off and get washed over 100yrds to the beach. Now what you say may be true if were talking about an already overcrowded super dense reef but i think for the most part that's not the case since most of the worlds reefs are becoming stressed and overwhelmed by outside influence and aren't in that state anymore. There aren't that many other ways corals propagate themselves effectively. Spawning is a possibility but currents will take eggs/baby polyps off and away from the reef very few would stay and attach on the same reef. So other then the corals breaking and reattaching i don't see how reefs would become so dense in the first place.

Now im no expert so if anyone else wants to toss in there 2c feel free.

Timfish
12/08/2013, 10:23 PM
While most of my corals I've grown in my tanks and I encourage newbies to get only local corals where they can hopefully see the conditions a coral is grown under it wild corals sustainably harvested are in important way provide local people and governments incentive to conserve reefs. Here's a quote from a United Nations Environemntal Protection agency report: "The aquarium industry as a whole is of relatively low volume yet very high value, thus potentially providing an incentive to conserve reef habitats and offering a livelihood to coastal communities often living in low-income areas. In 2000, 1 kg of aquarium fish from the Maldives was valued at almost US$500, whereas 1 kg of reef fish harvested for food was worth only US$6. Similarly, the live coral trade is stimated to be worth about US$7,000 per tonne whereas the use of harvested coral for the production of limestone yields only about US$60 per tonne 32 . In Palau, live rock is exported for the aquarium trade at US$2.2 to US$4.4 per kilo whereas it is sold locally as construction material for less than US$0.02 per kilo"

http://www.unep.org/PDF/From_Ocean_To_Aquarium_report.pdf

Joe0813
12/08/2013, 10:33 PM
Having a coral taken from a diver is what I'm talking about... having coral broken from a storm is sometimes a good thing

Spyderturbo007
12/09/2013, 08:38 AM
I always try to go the aquacultured / tank raised route whenever possible.

Mark9
12/09/2013, 11:10 AM
If people think the harvesting of wild corals is not destructive, or somehow "better" than a hurricane, they need to take their heads out of their a**.
There is a finite amount of corals.
Why do places ban the removal of coral?
No coral, no reef, no fish, it's not a hard concept.

And if you use the "responsible" harvesting, for every responsible person, there's probably 100 who are not.

Timfish
12/09/2013, 12:01 PM
If people think the harvesting of wild corals is not destructive, or somehow "better" than a hurricane, they need to take their heads out of their a**.
There is a finite amount of corals.
Why do places ban the removal of coral?
No coral, no reef, no fish, it's not a hard concept.

And if you use the "responsible" harvesting, for every responsible person, there's probably 100 who are not.

?!?!?!?! (Sorry but the words "bellicose" and "hubris" come to mind reading your post!)
Can you cite references for any of this?
I am especially curious of the logic behind your statement "There is a finite amount of corals" That makes as much sense as saying there are a finite amount of tomato plants. Corals can and are sustainably harvested and some places like Tonga have reversed their ban on coral collection.

Reeferz412
12/09/2013, 02:53 PM
Whole lot of opinions in this thread and no facts or references to back it up. I go aquacultured and trade with fellow reefers/fraggers.

SGT_York
12/09/2013, 04:34 PM
It all comes from the ocean if you are the 14th or 1st owner I don't see much difference, what I feel matters if that you are responsible and only get coral you know and can care for, secondly that you pass the growth on to fellow reefers at prices lower than the harvested rate. In time the harvest will end by pure economics.

I also have strife with anyone who will not get an aquacultured frag but buy's wild caught fish.

Reef Frog
12/09/2013, 11:44 PM
Whole lot of opinions in this thread and no facts or references to back it up. I go aquacultured and trade with fellow reefers/fraggers.

Well the quote from th UN agency was a great reference. For more information CORAL Magazine has lots of interesting info on mariculture & scientifically reviewed collecting operations all over the world. It's a good start and there's plenty of info on the web supporting the idea that wild collecting, properly done, isn't the awful thing it's often portrayed to be.

Yes there are bad operators out there. But countries like Australia regulate it well and many developing nations are realizing the benefits of doing it right.

But it's amazing to see the great success in fish & coral propagators over the last 10-20 years. And the success of some commercial propagators bodes well for the hobby & efforts to take pressure off of vulnerable locations. Buyers of their products get hardier specimens than random wild caught fish & corals, sometimes but not always at lower costs than wild caught.