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igot2gats
12/09/2013, 10:01 AM
Do you think prices should be raised on harder to keep fish such as Copperband Butterflys, Mandarins, Moorish Idols, etc., so that most people would have to think twice about buying them, thus a possible better survival rate? (Assuming only veteran reefers would buy a higher priced fish)...

Thoughts?

arnoldrew
12/10/2013, 06:41 AM
Prices are what the market will bear. If the price is too high then the fish won't sell and the stores won't carry them. I'm not sure how you propose to enforce "raising prices" on such fish.

igot2gats
12/10/2013, 06:48 AM
I'm not sure, it was just a thought.

The reasoning behind this is so that newbies don't go out and buy a fish like a Mandarin that's $20 because it's fairly cheap, and colorful....obviously not knowing the difficulty of keeping it is / getting it to eat prepared foods.

It would be nearly impossible to do this, (I think) but it's more of a thought provoking kind of question in attempt to help the hobby out.

Cbsailor11
12/10/2013, 08:02 AM
As a newbie I'm not sure higher prices would help to deter some from making ill fated purchases. Some people just buy a fish/coral before knowing its true requirements.
I personally do a fair bit of research before making any livestock buys. Actually has kept me from Mandarin and CBB purchases. I look into max size, min tank size, food needs, water parameters, etc. Some etailer sites show this info,some don't. Also I've been to several lfs. I prefer the ones where the staff asks " What size tank do you have.", "What's in there now?","How old is the setup?". I wish more stores did this to better advise buyers then just making a sale.

jerpa
12/10/2013, 08:27 AM
Education will help the uninformed but higher prices won't curb the irresponsible. There are just as many fools with access to funds as there are without.

Cbsailor11
12/10/2013, 09:23 AM
@jerpa. Agreed. But as I put together my 180g, I'm going from having funds to none

Da Maui life
12/10/2013, 09:53 AM
@jerpa. Agreed. But as I put together my 180g, I'm going from having funds to none

Itís not a hobby for the poorly funded.

Allmost
12/10/2013, 09:58 AM
I dont think it would make a difference ... most ppl like that dont care if they spend 1 dollar or 1K ..

igot2gats
12/10/2013, 10:58 AM
Education will help the uninformed but higher prices won't curb the irresponsible. There are just as many fools with access to funds as there are without.

I agree about being educated. But, there are people who don't even know about reefing forums. So, that isn't the only answer. But, it's part of it, so you're correct on that front.

I understand it wouldn't rid all of the problems. But I do feel there has to be a price point for difficult fish that would make some people think twice. Thus, not buying the fish as an impulse buy.

You have to take baby steps in order to help the grand scheme of things. Obviously, no matter the price, there will ALWAYS be people who just don't care, and will keep buying fish/inverts/corals that they don't know how to care for, and have an endless wallet.

Just my 2 cents.

ReddyW
12/10/2013, 11:56 AM
It's not just the reefer that has a responsibility here. The LFS needs to match livestock to the customer. Most I've seen don't, and many sell whatever to whomever. It seems the most successful LFS are the ones that start you down a path to ruin, and sell you solutions to problems they created along the way. I'm sure they didn't start out with that intention, but soon discovered that selling little bottles of snake oil was much easier and more profitable.

Moort82
12/10/2013, 02:16 PM
Completely agree that raising the price won't help. It will just make those mis-selling them more money.
I've ran a lfs and i wouldn't stock things such as CBB's, cleaner wrasse, moorish idols etc unless the customer specially ordered them. I did keep mandarins but our policy was to only let them go when they were eating frozen. Unfortunately these policies didn't really work as you'd spend half an hour talking about the specific needs of the fish and why they weren't normally suitable choices, then find out a couple of weeks later that they'd gone down the road and bought them anyway, and they were either dead or on their way.

So yes i do agree that education is the key but most people don't listen. It would be better to stop them even being imported but thats not realistically going to happen. Its a shame as you think how many don't even make it to a tank and they still feel its worth doing.

feh
12/12/2013, 06:06 PM
I don't think raising prices would be a good idea and could a negative effect. I think educating people more on harder to keep fish and inverts would be a better idea.

arnoldrew
12/13/2013, 08:34 AM
I still want to know how one would go about raising prices on these fish across the board.

Paul B
12/13/2013, 08:50 AM
I don't feel that copperbands or mandarins are hard fish to keep. Like all fish you should not buy one if you don't know how to feed them. They live as long as most fish if you do a little research. Moorish idols are a different story and are considered difficult. I have had many of them and none for more than five years.
But copperbands and mandarins are fairly easy. If you are the type of person who buys a fish and feeds it flakes and pellets, there is an entire assortment of creatures that you will not be able to keep. Instead of raising the price, the LFSs should inform people how to keep that animal before they sell it to you. We all know that isn't going to happen because they are not in business to teach, they are in business to stay in business and if people keep buying mandarins and copperbands and kep trying to feed them flakes, pellets and seaweeds, the LFS will make a nice profit and it will be good for them. Unfortunately, not so for the fish.
Almost all the fish we keep should live at least ten years, even copperbands and mandarins. The only fish with a shorter lifespan are smaller fish like clown gobies, pipefish, seahorses and manta rays. Unless of course you have a large enough tank.

GreshamH
12/16/2013, 01:51 PM
I don't feel that copperbands or mandarins are hard fish to keep. Like all fish you should not buy one if you don't know how to feed them. They live as long as most fish if you do a little research. Moorish idols are a different story and are considered difficult. I have had many of them and none for more than five years.
But copperbands and mandarins are fairly easy. If you are the type of person who buys a fish and feeds it flakes and pellets, there is an entire assortment of creatures that you will not be able to keep. Instead of raising the price, the LFSs should inform people how to keep that animal before they sell it to you. We all know that isn't going to happen because they are not in business to teach, they are in business to stay in business and if people keep buying mandarins and copperbands and kep trying to feed them flakes, pellets and seaweeds, the LFS will make a nice profit and it will be good for them. Unfortunately, not so for the fish.
Almost all the fish we keep should live at least ten years, even copperbands and mandarins. The only fish with a shorter lifespan are smaller fish like clown gobies, pipefish, seahorses and manta rays. Unless of course you have a large enough tank.

Manta rays are a small fish with a short lifespan?

I think you meant something else as they are large, and can live from 50 - 100 years :lol:

The real problem with both mandarins and copperbands is the CoC tends to starve them, and most herbivores as well.

Fish can spend several weeks in the CoC prior to even getting to the LFS.

atreis
12/17/2013, 06:43 AM
Should prices be raised? It's not a bad idea. The problem is: How? If left up to the vendors, the first one that doesn't follow the directive wins everyone's business. The other vendors would be forced to lower their prices again in order to continue to sell those fish at all.

The only way to really have this happen and work is through centralized regulation (of some sort - there are various ways to go about it), which somehow I just don't see happening.

jimroth
12/17/2013, 10:05 AM
I think high prices make fish more attractive. If gem tangs were the same price as Kole tangs, no one would think they are special.

Allmost
12/17/2013, 10:15 AM
I think high prices make fish more attractive. If gem tangs were the same price as Kole tangs, no one would think they are special.

in some cases yes, example is Clarion angel. they used to go for 200-300 ... now u cant find one below 3K

KafudaFish
12/17/2013, 10:16 AM
"Yep I just added this little beauty to my system."

"What is so special about that fish?"

"I don't know but the store charged me $2000.00 so I figured it must be rare or special."

jnc914
12/17/2013, 12:41 PM
in some cases yes, example is Clarion angel. they used to go for 200-300 ... now u cant find one below 3K

I first saw Clarions being offered on a semi- regular basis back in 2003-ish and they were $300. Then their availability seemed to dry up a bit. Now, I believe Cortez Marine are the only people licensed to collect them and the price on them have skyrocketed.

Allmost
12/17/2013, 12:45 PM
I first saw Clarions being offered on a semi- regular basis back in 2003-ish and they were $300. Then their availability seemed to dry up a bit. Now, I believe Cortez Marine are the only people licensed to collect them and the price on them have skyrocketed.

yap exactly ... nothing about the fish changed, just the collection laws did.

same reason why gem tangs are so expensive ...

other fish, like peppermint angels ... you can see why they would have such a price tag, they live deep and not everyone can get to them.

GreshamH
12/17/2013, 01:02 PM
I first saw Clarions being offered on a semi- regular basis back in 2003-ish and they were $300. Then their availability seemed to dry up a bit. Now, I believe Cortez Marine are the only people licensed to collect them and the price on them have skyrocketed.

huh, I worked for Cortez Marine back then and our Clarions (far and few between in 2003) were $2,500 wholesale. Prices dropped when Steve was able to take part in someone else's permit (Cortez Marine cannot by Mexican Law, have a collection license - they are importers of record for the shipments). The permit was someone else's and Steve didn't get all of them. They have dropped in price since 2003, that is for sure. But no where near the 90's low prices (I think you just missed it by a few years ;) )

There as a smuggled shipment (he went to jail) in the mid 2000's, those went for pretty cheap but they were beat up.

jnc914
12/17/2013, 01:11 PM
huh, I worked for Cortez Marine back then and our Clarions (far and few between in 2003) were $2,500 wholesale. Prices dropped when Steve was able to take part in someone else's permit (Cortez Marine cannot by Mexican Law, have a collection license - they are importers of record for the shipments). The permit was someone else's and Steve didn't get all of them. They have dropped in price since 2003, that is for sure. But no where near the 90's low prices (I think you just missed it by a few years ;) )

There as a smuggled shipment (he went to jail) in the mid 2000's, those went for pretty cheap but they were beat up.

I don't recall if Cortez Marine was offering the one's I mentioned at that time, or even if the specimens offered were collected legally at the time. It may have even been prior to 2003, (maybe 2001, but definitely not in the 90's) when a friend that owns an LFS was offered 2 at $300 a piece. I don't know what the chain of wholesale was at that time. I was just getting into the hobby and didn't want to drop that kind of money being a newb. Now I wish I can get one at that price.

atreis
12/17/2013, 02:57 PM
Fancy Yellow Tang - 1 million dollars. Exclusive! Get it now!

While high prices might make them more desirable (to some) it doesn't mean that more are sold at that high price. If it did, all fish would go for thousands. You think stores would pass that opportunity up?

Ron99
12/17/2013, 06:34 PM
ORA sells captive bred dragonets but the prices are far higher. They come eating pellets etc. I guess the question is are they selling? I was willing to look at one as I have a psychedelic one that eats anything and wanted a spotted one too. I noticed one that was picking at the frozen mysis my LFS was feeding so took a chance and he's pigging out on frozen mysis and bloodworm so I'm lucky. Figure he may get onto pellets once he's out of quarantine and in the main tank with my psychedelic one and sees her eating pellets.

So some luck is involved but you can get them on frozen or pellets.

atreis
12/18/2013, 04:30 AM
They very well could be selling - they're offering value-add for the additional money (the product isn't equivalent to the less expensive version), with the fish being easier to care for and already eating prepared foods. It would be interesting to know how they're sales compare with others.

I had a dragonet in my first tank (which had a huge refugium to supply food for it - it never did eat prepared foods). It was a fat and happy little bugger. Very interesting fish.

igot2gats
12/18/2013, 12:43 PM
"Yep I just added this little beauty to my system."

"What is so special about that fish?"

"I don't know but the store charged me $2000.00 so I figured it must be rare or special."

True. But the idea behind raising prices would deter SOME people, and that's the entire concept behind it.

You have to take baby steps in order to change some things in the grand scheme of things.

Should prices be raised? It's not a bad idea. The problem is: How? If left up to the vendors, the first one that doesn't follow the directive wins everyone's business. The other vendors would be forced to lower their prices again in order to continue to sell those fish at all.

The only way to really have this happen and work is through centralized regulation (of some sort - there are various ways to go about it), which somehow I just don't see happening.

True. It would be very difficult to do this, but that's also why I proposed it: to see what others thought about the idea, and how realistic people thought it might be.

Keep the thoughts coming....this is turning out to be a better thread than I thought. :smokin:

Moort82
12/18/2013, 02:31 PM
I think the point about CoC is a very good and valid one. If more care was taken over the handling of certain species and more effort made to get them feeding etc, then it should be fair to increase the price.
The truth is that many fish simply don't make it to a tank, let alone get the chance to recover. If this was improved then maybe the survival rate would increase.

I was told a tale by a wholesaler about the problems with unregulatored sellers. It was basically about a rep who was looking for fish. He visited a beach where various stalls were set up. They had a shaded covering so the seller didn't get to hot and had the fish pre-bagged. This particular rep enquired about a copperband. The seller didn't have one today but did remember he had one yesterday, to which he turned and went to look in the sea, apparently pulling out fish that had been discarded the day before.
Even if there is an ounce of truth in the story, the sheer lack of perceived value is a huge part of the problem imo.

ca1ore
12/20/2013, 06:52 AM
ORA sells captive bred dragonets but the prices are far higher. They come eating pellets etc.

That's the DD model too. You pay a premium for a fish that has been pre-quarantined (at least partly) and is ostensibly eating prepared foods. Probability of longer-term survival is higher; therefore the price is higher. Seems to me DD items go pretty fast.

ca1ore
12/20/2013, 06:55 AM
I still want to know how one would go about raising prices on these fish across the board.

Short of collusion, there is no way to do it really. Prices are a function of supply and demand. If a fish is difficult to keep in captivity, but common in the wild, then it will be relatively cheap.

ifarmer
12/20/2013, 09:41 AM
Do you think prices should be raised on harder to keep fish such as Copperband Butterflys, Mandarins, Moorish Idols, etc., so that most people would have to think twice about buying them, thus a possible better survival rate? (Assuming only veteran reefers would buy a higher priced fish)...

Thoughts?

easy to say than done
just too many lfs, vendor and hobbyst

hopefully when you become the LFS owner. you can set this price at your store to prevent newbie from buying them.

arnoldrew
12/20/2013, 10:14 AM
easy to say than done
just too many lfs, vendor and hobbyst

hopefully when you become the LFS owner. you can set this price at your store to prevent newbie from buying them.

Then they will go to another store with competitive pricing and buy it there...

feh
12/24/2013, 06:14 AM
I don't feel that copperbands or mandarins are hard fish to keep. Like all fish you should not buy one if you don't know how to feed them. They live as long as most fish if you do a little research. Moorish idols are a different story and are considered difficult. I have had many of them and none for more than five years.
But copperbands and mandarins are fairly easy. If you are the type of person who buys a fish and feeds it flakes and pellets, there is an entire assortment of creatures that you will not be able to keep. Instead of raising the price, the LFSs should inform people how to keep that animal before they sell it to you. We all know that isn't going to happen because they are not in business to teach, they are in business to stay in business and if people keep buying mandarins and copperbands and kep trying to feed them flakes, pellets and seaweeds, the LFS will make a nice profit and it will be good for them. Unfortunately, not so for the fish.
Almost all the fish we keep should live at least ten years, even copperbands and mandarins. The only fish with a shorter lifespan are smaller fish like clown gobies, pipefish, seahorses and manta rays. Unless of course you have a large enough tank.

I'd love to have a moorish idle, but difficulty and tank size are an issue. I get attached to my "little friends" and completely agree, but you can't really rely on a LFS to educate people. People need to take initiative and research an animals needs before buying.

spieszak
12/24/2013, 06:30 AM
Sometimes I think the opposite is more appropriate. The more folks that have a fish, the more easily their requirements become understood....
Then I read about noobs with fish I wouldn't want advanced folks to keep.. but still.. there is a tradeoff there.

SGT_York
12/24/2013, 01:45 PM
I still want to know how one would go about raising prices on these fish across the board.

By executive order and Government price regulation. It's just a matter of time before The stalwart hand saves the hobby one fish at a time.

It's a shame how blind some of us are to the laws of economics and the protection of our liberties.

Thales
12/25/2013, 09:09 PM
I am all for putting a premium on animals due to their general husbandry needs, danger, or unknown/threatened status in the wild. I would also be for livestock prices going up across the board (they aren't widgets after all).

The real question I think that is behind this thread is 'how do we get people to stop making irresponsible choices?'. Education hasn't worked in 30 years (that may be an organizational problem). Raising prices should stop a lot of the flash in the pan, unspecialized purchases. What other ideas to people have?

Paul B
12/28/2013, 08:15 AM
The real question I think that is behind this thread is 'how do we get people to stop making irresponsible choices?'

That is never going to happen. Just look at all the threads that start out with:
I bought a ribbon eel and don't know what to feed it
I just got a Moorish Idol because it was eating flakes in the store
I have two mandarins and they are killing each other, and I don't know what they eat
How do I grow pods for my dragonettes?
My seahorses won't eat flakes
My kole tang's tail is sticking out of it's 5 gallon tank
Fish are disappearing, could it have something to do with my moray eel or 7" mantis?
Spots on everything, is this normal?
Can I keep fish in wet sawdust instead of seawater to save money?
My heater broke and I am using a propane torch to heat the fish individually, is that OK?
This is how many threads start. You know it, I know it and they know it.
This is not a recipe for learning anything.

Thales
12/28/2013, 09:25 AM
That is never going to happen. Just look at all the threads that start out with:
I bought a ribbon eel and don't know what to feed it
I just got a Moorish Idol because it was eating flakes in the store
I have two mandarins and they are killing each other, and I don't know what they eat
How do I grow pods for my dragonettes?
My seahorses won't eat flakes
My kole tang's tail is sticking out of it's 5 gallon tank
Fish are disappearing, could it have something to do with my moray eel or 7" mantis?
Spots on everything, is this normal?
Can I keep fish in wet sawdust instead of seawater to save money?
My heater broke and I am using a propane torch to heat the fish individually, is that OK?
This is how many threads start. You know it, I know it and they know it.
This is not a recipe for learning anything.

If the hobby can't figure out how to deal with those problems, perhaps legislation could curtail some or most of that - if the bulk of the hobby is how you present them, perhaps such legislation is warranted.

SGT_York
12/31/2013, 04:53 PM
Wow, your confidence in our legislation is mind boggling???

I'd prefer to keep my rights, rather than farm them out to incompetent appointed regulators.

If any species becomes at a slight risk then yes Government should intervene but it should keep it's incompetent nose out of individual rights.

Thales
12/31/2013, 05:40 PM
Wow, your confidence in our legislation is mind boggling???

I don't believe I said anything about being confident in legislation, rather that if the hobby/industry can't get its ducks in a row, legislation might try to do it for us.

I'd prefer to keep my rights, rather than farm them out to incompetent appointed regulators.

If any species becomes at a slight risk then yes Government should intervene but it should keep it's incompetent nose out of individual rights.[/QUOTE]

What rights are you talking about?

Cbsailor11
01/01/2014, 07:17 PM
"My heater broke and I am using a propane torch to heat the fish individually, is that OK?"..LOL. Paul everyone knows to use oxyacetylene not propane.
I think education is needed, starting from those in the hobby when we meet people interested in getting a tank to give them good advise and suggest proper research before blindly jumping into the tank purchase. Then the LFS staff should be willing to lose a sale if in the long run they gain a repeat customer instead of a quick dollar.

Thales
01/01/2014, 08:51 PM
Sadly, that education doesn't happen. The margins that LFS run are often so slim that saying no to a sale can break the business - especially if you know that the customer is going to leave and give someone else their money for the very thing you told them no. Not say that this is a good situation, but it seems to be the reality.

SGT_York
01/02/2014, 01:54 PM
I'll start with my right to own a normal pet without a license or a permit.

Thales
01/02/2014, 02:31 PM
Where are you given the right to own a pet? There are many restrictions on the kind of animals that can be kept, where they can be kept, how they are offered for sale, and what conditions they must be kept in.

SGT_York
01/02/2014, 05:36 PM
Anything I can do by right of law is considered a legal right. Once that right has been taken away from the citizenry it is no longer a right. Thankfully the founders of the United States thought that way, historically you would be correct under the French and English monarchs, serfs only had what rights were expressly given to them by their lords.

I'll keep with the By the people, for the people and of the people mentality. Rather than the law needs to constrain every facet of individual liberty position.

loudell
01/02/2014, 07:17 PM
The fish tax
Mmmmm?

Thales
01/03/2014, 10:48 AM
Anything I can do by right of law is considered a legal right. Once that right has been taken away from the citizenry it is no longer a right. Thankfully the founders of the United States thought that way, historically you would be correct under the French and English monarchs, serfs only had what rights were expressly given to them by their lords.

I'll keep with the By the people, for the people and of the people mentality. Rather than the law needs to constrain every facet of individual liberty position.

I am not sure what you are getting at, or what rights you are talking about. Laws change all the time, by the people and for the people. If the people decide that laws regarding the import or keeping of reef animals should change how is that somehow against what the Founding Fathers thought?

There are many laws regarding animal ownership.

Thales
01/03/2014, 10:53 AM
The fish tax
Mmmmm?

I wish the hobby/industry would willingly add a surcharge to animal purchases and then use that money for many things - education, COC reform, etc. At this point there really isn't a hobby central body that could administer such a thing, which I think is unfortunate.

Cbsailor11
01/03/2014, 02:47 PM
Thales- yes I get that the profit margin is so tight that a lost sale can destroy the lfs. It's a shame that is the reality. Maybe part of ones dues to a club or MACNA(other events) could fund such an education program.etc
Pardon my novice question but what is CoC? I'm still learning terms in the hobby.

Thales
01/03/2014, 03:06 PM
Sorry - Chain Of Custody, from collection to retail.

Cbsailor11
01/03/2014, 04:28 PM
Thank you Thales. Still learning this hobby. I have to go to my LFS tomorrow to discuss some purchases for my 180 build. I'm going to ask their opinion on the subject just for giggles.

Rascalson
01/03/2014, 06:58 PM
And what happens when anyone that wants to spend the time and money can breed rare angels or a rare wrasse like clowns are bred right now? 29$ peppermint angels from petco anyone? And If I have to pay a premium(tax) over what the market would normally charge me then most certainly someone going out with a "snorkel bob" and subjecting the reef to their Suntan Lotion slathered body should have to pay a "tax" above and beyond what they would normally pay. While i'm on a roll I think anything to make ones lawn less "natural" and more green should have quite a hefty tax on it too. I think the main issue here is where does the line get drawn and is there a better answer than pushing towards one extreme or the other?

SGT_York
01/03/2014, 07:00 PM
It's a simple matter of age old economics vs government control. Is it better to let people negotiate their own prices, or Establish a Government board, hire employees, set regulations, enforce the regulations, increase taxes to pay for it. It is certainly justifiable for items that we can't live without, police, military, roads. But all Governments have a poor track record of efficiencies and when you can keep the "invisible hand" in control of the economy it's economically better off for everyone, just a matter of time until the current pendulum switches back to positive economic thought but how long we dreg this recession on by supporting Government interference is up for debate.

Protect the endangered, eliminate hazardous collection processes, yes: establish price ceilings absolutely not, look at the fuel shortages in the 70's or look at New York rent control policies in the early 1900's to see what happens when good feeling ignorance set's market prices. Your intentions are noble but egregiously erroneous.

Thales
01/03/2014, 08:13 PM
And what happens when anyone that wants to spend the time and money can breed rare angels or a rare wrasse like clowns are bred right now? 29$ peppermint angels from petco anyone?

We all get really happy because we get cheap fish? We pour more resources into reef local communities so they care for them and we always have some wild stock to fold into breeding projects?

And If I have to pay a premium(tax) over what the market would normally charge me then most certainly someone going out with a "snorkel bob" and subjecting the reef to their Suntan Lotion slathered body should have to pay a "tax" above and beyond what they would normally pay.

Absolutely. However, I think it is more important that we take care of our own industry so others have a much harder time blaming us for problems.

I think the main issue here is where does the line get drawn and is there a better answer than pushing towards one extreme or the other?

I think that is the point - if we don't draw our on lines someone else might do it for us. We don't need to push to extremes, we need to be reasonable.

Thales
01/03/2014, 08:15 PM
It's a simple matter of age old economics vs government control. Is it better to let people negotiate their own prices, or Establish a Government board, hire employees, set regulations, enforce the regulations, increase taxes to pay for it.

Depends. Is the resource being extracted reasonably or in a free for all?

Protect the endangered, eliminate hazardous collection processes, yes: establish price ceilings absolutely not, look at the fuel shortages in the 70's or look at New York rent control policies in the early 1900's to see what happens when good feeling ignorance set's market prices. Your intentions are noble but egregiously erroneous.

You are are arguing against straw men. What I am talking about is protecting the endangered and curtailing poor handling and collection practices.

SGT_York
01/04/2014, 08:09 AM
No you are absolutely not and that is the key.

Regulating prices is in no way directly related to the harvesting methods. Difficult to keep does not mean endangered. collection practices are not related to the sale price. I assume you mean by increasing the supply cost you will decrease demand. and I certainly agree with your ideals but increasing the price lends to tighter profit margins for the suppliers which in actuality decreases the proper collection practices. It is a noble idea but one that has failed consistently.

write the laws to deal with the methods not the end consumer.

Thales
01/04/2014, 10:04 AM
No you are absolutely not


Yes I am.

and that is the key.

I think it is.

Regulating prices is in no way directly related to the harvesting methods.

I don't believe I ever said anything about regulating prices.

Difficult to keep does not mean endangered.

I don't believe I said it did.

collection practices are not related to the sale price.

Of course they are. Current retail prices of MO are at least partially based on how inexpensive it is to collect the animals (the other part is shipping, which can be argued to be part of collection costs). Juiced fish are cheaper at the retail level because it costs less to collect them. Fish caught with hand nets are more expensive because it costs more to collect them. Fish caught on rebreathers are more expensive because it costs more to collect them. It costs more to treat the animals better through the COC, and that cost effects sale price...which is part of the reason some animals are not treated better though the COC.

I assume you mean by increasing the supply cost you will decrease demand.

I am all for pricing responsibly handled fish what it costs to handle them responsibly. I don't think that will necessarily decrease demand. This is a luxury hobby, and people who have no problem spending hundreds or thousands on a new piece of equipment won't have much of a problem spending 30 dollars instead of 15 dollars on an animal. If pricing animals at price points that reflect the cost of responsibility collecting them prices people out of the market, people who get into the hobby and out in 18 months because they kill stuff and don't figure out what they need to do to keep animals alive long term...well that may be a good thing.

and I certainly agree with your ideals but increasing the price lends to tighter profit margins for the suppliers which in actuality decreases the proper collection practices. It is a noble idea but one that has failed consistently.

The only price I am talking about increasing is the cost it takes to responsibly handle the animals. If we are getting animals cheaply because corners are being caught and animals are dying in the process (but who cares because they are so cheap), then we have real ethical issues around the industry and hobby.
A great example of charging the actual cost of responsibly treating the animals is Live Aquaria Diver's Den where animals are treated and conditioned before offered for sale. This results in higher prices, but their business seems to not have suffered. And it is easy to see that paying 20% more for an animal that lives cost the consumer less than buying a less expensive animal 4 times because it doesn't live.

write the laws to deal with the methods not the end consumer.

Maybe. I feel however that since we are talking about live animals, not widgets, that we, the people who want to keep them, have a responsibility to see to it that they are collected and cared for well. A well constructed surcharge on the sale of animals could go a long way to fulfilling that responsibility in many ways.

Rascalson
01/04/2014, 10:55 AM
We all get really happy because we get cheap fish? We pour more resources into reef local communities so they care for them and we always have some wild stock to fold into breeding projects?

How would we be pouring more resoures in to local reef communities if we don't actually need to put in any money to those economies to get the pretty fish we want? There is also a time coming when we will be able to power our entire home and our piece of the ocean with renewable energy(now possible but $$$)
Absolutely. However, I think it is more important that we take care of our own industry so others have a much harder time blaming us for problems.I think that is being done already, and I think some of the other side of this debate like the environmental extremists, are actualy not altruistic and intellectually honest and are working more from a personal agenda. I don't believe that they would stop just like I don't think the ability to tank breed large amounts of rare species would stop collection of them in the wild.
I think that is the point - if we don't draw our on lines someone else might do it for us. We don't need to push to extremes, we need to be reasonable.
I think we need to find something that works universally for all involved. The need to be "reasonable" is moot.

SGT_York
01/04/2014, 11:45 AM
My comments were in context with the OP and the thread title, with your last post I have no issues with the stated.