Stubborn ich or something else?

[shayan]

I am helping a friend with this ich case. He bought a porcupine puffer more than 2 months ago and QT'd him in a 50 gallon tank. The puffer started showing signs of ich in a few days so he started treatment with cupramine. Since then (more than 2 months ago) the puffer is still in the QT because the white ich spots are still on his body.

The puffer is very playful, eats like a pig and swims all day. He also does not show any other ich related symptoms (scratching, being lethargic, ...)

I personally tested his QT's water params a few times and the results are as follows:

PH 8.1
Salinity 1.024
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates ~10
Temp 79

He ran the treatment process 3 times (14 days on-14 days off) and there are still white spots on the body (in fact they never "dropped" as in any other ich case that i've ever encountered). Him and I both tested the copper during this time with two different sets of seachem tests to make sure its in the effective range.

Does anyone have any suggestion on how we can heal this little guy?


http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o535/Shayan_Heidarzadeh/photo2.jpg

http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o535/Shayan_Heidarzadeh/photo1.jpg

[Mrscribbled]

Doesn't look like ich, and giving the timeline, it most likely isn't. I'd perform a FW bath (could be flukes).

[shayan]

I agree with you. However, I don't think its flukes cause per seachem's website cupramine should also treat them.
btw we did give him FWB a couple of times with no avail

[Mrscribbled]

Copper is only affective against a select few types of flukes. Most likely the white spots/specks/discoloration is just this individule fish's complection.

[shayan]

He did not have any white spots at first when he was put the in QT. He also has a couple of white spots on his eyes, so i think we are definitely dealing with a parasite...

[Fishfirst]

Most likely a dosing issue... it definitely is ich. Are you testing your cu level?

[shayan]

Yeah, as I mentioned in the original post, we tested it multiple times with different test kits. The strange thing is that even if you don't treat ich, it will either kill the fish or fall off the body as part of its life cycle. These things never fell off the fish

[shayan]

Also I have treated ich with cupramine before and never encountered an issue like this.

[Fishfirst]

Again... what is your level of cu? Also giving it 14 days w/o cu would not help things. For stubborn cases of ich I also dose formalin every other day. I am positive this is ich... and porcipine puffers tend to have persistent infections of ich. I once treated a large porcipine for a month with copper before it started to improve.

[shayan]

Again... what is your level of cu? Also giving it 14 days w/o cu would not help things. For stubborn cases of ich I also dose formalin every other day. I am positive this is ich... and porcipine puffers tend to have persistent infections of ich. I once treated a large porcipine for a month with copper before it started to improve.


I thought puffers are sensitive to copper that's why we had him on copper on 14 day periods. We kept the Cu level at 0.5 mg/L

[Fishfirst]

.5 Is way too low... 1.5-2.0 is lethal levels to ich. Porcine puffers do not mind Cu. If the animal is feeding well and swimming normal it will not die due to Cu toxicity. Basically right now you are dosing enough Cu to make it ineffective and stressful on the fish.

[shayan]

Oh that's interesting. We went by the instructions on SeaChem website.

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Cupramine.html

SeaChem claims that the copper level should be at 0.5 and not advisable above 0.6

At this point I think we will start formalin treatment. I have never done that before. Do you use any specific brand?

[Fishfirst]

I use formalin in conjunction with Cu. Without it on severe infections like this it will be nearly useless. Trust me, I have dosed copper on tens of thousands of fish, .5 is low, especially with a milder form of Cu like cupromine. I prefer the LaMotte low range test kit for testing as well.

[Fishfirst]

Any formaldehyde solution at 37% will suffice.

[Fishfirst]

Sorry I must edit... are you sure you are dosing at .5? .5 would be extremely high. I was thinking you were dosing .05

[Fishfirst]

Which test kits are you using?

[Mrscribbled]

First; formalin must not be used in conjunction with cupramine.
Second; .5 ppm cupramine is more than effective, .35ppm is the lowest I'd go.
Third; the fins are perfectly clear, if this were ich, stubborn case none the less, it would be visible on fins, and at some point fall off.

Formalin may be a good treatment course, remove copper first. Formalin 37% @ 1ml per 6.5 gallons of water. I'd suspect stubborn flukes before ich in this case. Formalin is often a good treatment course for this. Just beware, it's harsh, aerate well, best to be used in a bath versus QT.

[Fishfirst]

First; formalin must not be used in conjunction with cupramine.
Second; .5 ppm cupramine is more than effective, .35ppm is the lowest I'd go.
Third; the fins are perfectly clear, if this were ich, stubborn case none the less, it would be visible on fins, and at some point fall off.

Formalin may be a good treatment course, remove copper first. Formalin 37% @ 1ml per 6.5 gallons of water. I'd suspect stubborn flukes before ich in this case. Formalin is often a good treatment course for this. Just beware, it's harsh, aerate well, best to be used in a bath versus QT.

I have treated tens of thousands of fish using Cu and formaldehyde combo. I disagree that you cannot use it with cupramine because I have used it.
This is a clear case of ich. Flukes look nothing like this, and formaldehyde is not effective against flukes.

[Mrscribbled]

I have treated tens of thousands of fish using Cu and formaldehyde combo. I disagree that you cannot use it with cupramine because I have used it. Go to SeaChems website, it clearly states not to use Formalin with Cupramine.
This is a clear case of ich. Flukes look nothing like this, and formaldehyde is not effective against flukes.Formalin will/ does work on many flukes. Often ones Prazi and copper do nothing for.



To the OP, can you get a further away pic, of the whole fish.

[Mrscribbled]

If in fact this is a stubborn/abnormal case of ich. Chloroquine Phosphate would be the best treatment. Its safe and highly effective quinine Sulfate also works well.

[Fishfirst]

I guess I killed thousands of fish then according to seachem