Help Total confusion with phospates

[dfm34]

I have been having some phosphate issues over the past few months and I am total confused and really need some help.

I have a 75gl mix reef sps and Lps 30 gal sump with sca 302 skimmer and have been running a reactor with gfo

Ca 420
Mg 1410
Alk 9 dkh
No3 .2
Po4 .16 (Hana ulr 736)

my po4 seem to coming from my Rodi water which is confusing me because my in line tsd meter reads 0. I have tested my rodi water 4 times with 2 different regents and always get a reading of about .12???? I am using a spectrapure refurbished 90 gpd unit. I changed the three filter about a month ago when I noticed my po4 starting to climb.

I have no idea how this can be or what to do.

[scottwhitson]

Is this water fresh from your RO/DI or has it been sitting in a storage bin of some type? Some claim that their Brute containers leach phosphates.

[tmz]

Brute containers are fine , I've used several for years. A wipe down with vinegar and a rinse before use to remove any manufacturing or shipping residue before initial use is helpful.

A second in line di canisiter could help.

How often are you changing out the gfo. If PO4 is high it can exhaust in days?

[spieszak]

Brute containers are fine , I've used several for years. A wipe down with vinegar and a rinse before use to remove any manufacturing or shipping residue before initial use is helpful.

I'm not disagreeing, but I just want to note...
Brute containers are GENERALLY fine. If they are new and rinsed you shouldn't experience any leeching. If you have a used one, or got it in a packaged tank deal, they can be a trouble source. If that is the case, just replace it.

What are the margins of error on the tests you are using? Sometimes that variance can be large. Also, are your test vials and such clean? Phosphates can build on the vials. Its sticky stuff, and likes to stay, even with a good rinse. Rinse BEFORE testing in RO/DI and again after.

[dfm34]

The test results are straight RODI not stored the margin if error on the test is +-.4. I can't figure were the po4 is coming from.

[bertoni]

If the RO/DI is reading 0.12 ppm, I'd guess that the phosphate meter is broken or the reagents are from a bad lot. I'd get a second opinion before doing much.

Are any animals showing signs of trouble? If so, some water changes might help.

[Heliman]

Just a small point...

You say the reading from Hanna ULR is 736 ?

That represents parts per BILLION phosphorous, which equates to 2.1 parts per million Phosphates ??...something not right about that.

Considering that all your other quoted parameters are spot-on, I would seriously doubt that you are getting accurate Phosphate results from your tests. At those sort of levels you would surely be experiencing serious problems with nuisance algae and poor coral health ?

[dfm34]

No I am using the Hana 736 my reading is usually between 35 and 45 Which equal .15 to 16 on avg.

[reeferman123]

the test kit is made to read salt water...rodi is only freshwater..I think your reading will be off

[outssider]

test your tap water with the 736 meter...see what you get ??

resin doesn't seem to work great for removing po4...I added 2 more resin chambers. that helped but still sometimes get a reading of about .03 with the 736.

[dfm34]

the test kit is made to read salt water...rodi is only freshwater..I think your reading will be off

Did not know that thought Po4 would be same in either???

[bertoni]

The Phosphate Checker is rated for fresh or salt water. The Phosphorus ULR is not.

[dfm34]

The Phosphate Checker is rated for fresh or salt water. The Phosphorus ULR is not.

Ok so I am using the Hana 736 phosphorus ULR checker which is not made for fresh water so my readings on my Rodi is not accurate. Now I have no idea where my po4 are coming from. My tank usually read 30-35 or .12~

[tmz]

Now I have no idea where my po4 are coming from. My tank usually read 30-35 or .12~

Mostly from food or leaching from the substrate or rock would be my guess.

[tmz]

I'm not disagreeing, but I just want to note...
Brute containers are GENERALLY fine. If they are new and rinsed you shouldn't experience any leeching. If you have a used one, or got it in a packaged tank deal, they can be a trouble source.
.

That caveat applies to any used container including a used tank as well as used equipment ,substrate ,rock et al.; not just brute containers. I also clearly stated initial use,ie first use.

[dfm34]

Mostly from food or leaching from the substrate or rock would be my guess.

I have not added any rock or sand to make my readings climb in the last few months nor have changed my feeding habits, if anything I feed less since I have notched the jump.

I do store water in a brute container and my ATO container is a 5 gal Lowes bucket. Makes me wonder now.

[tmz]

The tank may not be processing out nutrients at the same rate as as earlier. The food eaten and uneaten is a source for it. How old is the sand? How much of it is in use? What were the historic PO4 levels before the rise?

[bertoni]

I'm still not convinced that the reading is correct.

[dfm34]

Historically my readings were .4-.6 my sand bed is now about 1" deep but I recently removed some because it is sugar fine and was blowing around with my mp40

Bertnoni I def have a rise in po4 because I am getting a powder like green algae in my sand. It may not be actuate but something is going on

I am going to increase my cuc this week see if that helps.

[snowcarver75]

The Phosphate Checker is rated for fresh or salt water. The Phosphorus ULR is not.

Are you saying that we should not be using 736 model for our reef tank? Rather we should stick with 713 model?

[Portsie]

Are you saying that we should not be using 736 model for our reef tank? Rather we should stick with 713 model?

No, he's just saying you shouldn't use the ULR to test your fresh water.

[bertoni]

That's correct. Both models are fine for saltwater. :)

[spieszak]

That caveat applies to any used container including a used tank as well as used equipment ,substrate ,rock et al.; not just brute containers. I also clearly stated initial use,ie first use.

agreed on the caveat, but no, you didn't. you said how to treat it before first use.
my intent isn't to argue, but folks don't always think about it when they get things used...and had you stated that, i wouldn't have followed up. :)

[dkeller_nc]

A couple of thoughts/questions to perhaps help you diagnose your issue:

Since you're on the east coast in the middle of NJ, your input water should be relatively soft and uncontaminated with dissolved nutrients. That's assuming you're on municipal tap water rather than a well.

The first thing to check is whether your municipality uses chloramine to disinfect tap water. If that's the case, the single carbon block in your RODI unit will be exhausted very quickly. If you've not changed it every 1000 gallons or so (total water processed, waste and product), then you've likely been exposing your RO membrane to chloramine, which can rapidly degrade it. If this is happened, then you'll need to replace your RO membrane and either add some additional carbon filtration capacity up front, or change the carbon module more often. This is one way that you could get phosphates through your RODI unit, assuming your test results are accurate.

Back to the tank - what sort of GFO do you use (what brand), how much do you use, and how often do you change it? What sort of reactor do you use it in, and what's the flow rate through the reactor?

[dfm34]

A couple of thoughts/questions to perhaps help you diagnose your issue: Since you're on the east coast in the middle of NJ, your input water should be relatively soft and uncontaminated with dissolved nutrients. That's assuming you're on municipal tap water rather than a well. The first thing to check is whether your municipality uses chloramine to disinfect tap water. If that's the case, the single carbon block in your RODI unit will be exhausted very quickly. If you've not changed it every 1000 gallons or so (total water processed, waste and product), then you've likely been exposing your RO membrane to chloramine, which can rapidly degrade it. If this is happened, then you'll need to replace your RO membrane and either add some additional carbon filtration capacity up front, or change the carbon module more often. This is one way that you could get phosphates through your RODI unit, assuming your test results are accurate. Back to the tank - what sort of GFO do you use (what brand), how much do you use, and how often do you change it? What sort of reactor do you use it in, and what's the flow rate through the reactor?

Thanks I am on municipal water and there is a slight smell of chlorine from the tap?!?!? As for the GFO I use PURA Phoslock I use about 3tsp in a two little fish reactor change it every two weeks

[bertoni]

You could check the accuracy of your TDS meter, but if it's accurate, the RO/DI is okay, and your RO/DI water should be clean enough. If you're worried, maybe a LFS would run a phosphate test on the output.

[dfm34]

I am about to give up I just tested my tap water with a salifert kit and got a reading of zero. Also tested my water change water with the Hana test kit got a reading of .12. Could my reef crystal salt have PO4 in it????

[bertoni]

Well, the salt should not have that much phosphate in it, so I'm surprised, or maybe confused. How long was the saltwater stored, and could anything have gotten into it?

[GroktheCube]

I am about to give up I just tested my tap water with a salifert kit and got a reading of zero. Also tested my water change water with the Hana test kit got a reading of .12. Could my reef crystal salt have PO4 in it????

What does the salifert kit say about your freshly mixed salt water? Perhaps the issue lies with the checker or its reagents.

[dfm34]

Well, the salt should not have that much phosphate in it, so I'm surprised, or maybe confused. How long was the saltwater stored, and could anything have gotten into it?

I use a 30gal brute can do 10 gal water changes every two weeks. I never let the can get completely empty so after 3 to 4 weeks I add new water. I keep the can in the garage but it is always covered and being circulated and heated.

[bertoni]

I don't know why the phosphate level is that high. Maybe the test device or reagents are not working properly, though.