Goby - sick please help

[Neptune 555]

I purchased new fish from my LFS and added them to my DT (never again). 3 days later my new fish anthias died and then 5 more days new flame angel died of ich. I removed my remaining three fish - who all looked great BTW to QT where I began to run HYPO to ensure they did not still carry ich. I am not sure what killed my anthias?

In Hypo for 2 weeks I have two percula clowns who look great and on Goby who looks terrible. I separated the fish yesterday when I noticed the clowns bothering goby. I also added a cup of sand in a bowl from my DT that had been fallow for 4 weeks? Not long enough to kill ich...after I added the sand 12 hours later goby looked like he had ich. but I continued on with treatment as he was already in hypo. Today he looks worse. His skin is floating off his body in spots? He has white spots still but they are larger then a grain of salt? Also his dorsal fin is flat won't come up. Where the clowns were biting him a bit on his tail fin it is blotchy?

I just read about marine velvet versus ich? I am not sure how to identify? Do others have photos to share? He is not eating?

HELP Neptune..
I may only have hours?

[Neptune 555]

https://drive.google.com/?authuser=0&usp=gmail#folders/0B1nktQogJHwpOUxheXliRlFHOHM

Photo of Goby...

[snorvich]

Based on the timeline, it is likely to be velvet in which case hypo has no effect. Please read the stickies.

[Neptune 555]

Snorvich,

thanks for that... I spent all my time reading on ICH it never occurred to me it was velvet. OK I read your blog and the differences on ich and velvet. A few questions..

He is already in my QT? I can take him out and treat him with freshwater dip and Formalin bath as proposed but then where do I put him? I need to put him back in the QT where marine velvet exists? My clowns are hiding from me now also so I suspect / I know they are infected?

Will freshwater dip even help as they are in HYPO already at 1.008? You suggest freshwater dip of 1.001? Will that be enough to have the cycst pop?

I think I am leaving the hobby.. with all my fish dead now I don't think I have it in me to set up my new 75 gallon. My 48 is infected.. my QT is infected?

sadly
Neptune

[MrTuskfish]

I'd wait for Snorvich....but here's my 2 cents. Copper is the only cure I'd use with velvet. All of the fish need to be treated, the entire DT is infected, not just the fish showing symptoms. Hate to lose you, using a good quarantine procedure would have prevented all your problems. I hope others will learn from it. Why not get the problem solved, then use a QT with all new fish, do some reading on our hobby while the parasites die off in the DT and then enjoy a wonderful life-long hobby?

[snorvich]

I'd wait for Snorvich....but here's my 2 cents. Copper is the only cure I'd use with velvet. All of the fish need to be treated, the entire DT is infected, not just the fish showing symptoms. Hate to lose you, using a good quarantine procedure would have prevented all your problems. I hope others will learn from it. Why not get the problem solved, then use a QT with all new fish, do some reading on our hobby while the parasites die off in the DT and then enjoy a wonderful life-long hobby?

What he said. Sigh. Always hate to lose someone. Best to always go slowly in this hobby.

[HumbleFish]

I'd wait for Snorvich....but here's my 2 cents. Copper is the only cure I'd use with velvet. All of the fish need to be treated, the entire DT is infected, not just the fish showing symptoms. Hate to lose you, using a good quarantine procedure would have prevented all your problems. I hope others will learn from it. Why not get the problem solved, then use a QT with all new fish, do some reading on our hobby while the parasites die off in the DT and then enjoy a wonderful life-long hobby?

+1 When I got back into the hobby after some time away, for some reason I forgot about how important it was to QT. A few trips to the LFS re-taught me that lesson the hard way. :uhoh2:

At some point, I decided it was time to hit the reset button. So I developed a QT protocol and started buying my fish from a trusted online vendor (Liveaquaria). Now I have the opposite problem... too many fish, need to get rid of some!!! :)

[Neptune 555]

So hard... I have a new / used 75 gallon w/ sump waiting to be set up and all my fish from my 48 gallon are dead. The issue with the QT is that they were in QT when this happened... b/c I was treating them for ich not velvet.. does this mean for each new fish copper treatment? I was OK with doing hypo on all new fish but copper is so harsh? It just seems mean to put a fish through all that...?

OK of the 3 fish in QT goby is dead... one percula clown upside down but not dead (yet) one percula clown hiding in shade. I am running to LFS to treat the last two w/ copper but have little hope they will live b/c I am at 1.009 salinity and I can't do copper and hypo at the same time? arrgghhh? the two clowns were a mated pair for 6+ years...? I love them... The female is hovering over... not bothering the sick male. It is just so sad.

What can I do now? end the misery for both remaining fish? OR try to raise salinity and then add copper?
Neptune

[Newsmyrna80]

Neptune 555, I've been where you are. Within the last year I lost all my fish, that I had had for 8 years, to velvet due to a tang that was quarantined for a month. Then I introduced flukes from a Blenny, also quarantined but showed no symptoms. A month after I cured all for a very stubborn case of flukes I introduced an unquarantined sea urchin....brook! Then an asymptomatic wrasse introduced flukes..again! I was done! There were times I had 5 QTs going at one time:(
But I took a step back, stopped buying livestock and got a quarantine regimen. Everything gets quarantined for at least 10 weeks, including corals and inverts. I finally enjoy my tank:) Don't give up...it will get better! Treat the fish you have now and like everyone has said take your time and quarantine!

[HumbleFish]

Neptune, just focus on saving those clownfish for now and worry about all the rest later. Go get some Cupramine (or Coppersafe), and start adding it while slowly raising the SG.

Pickup a copper test kit while you're at the LFS. Salifert or Seachem for Cupramine, or API for Coppersafe.

[Neptune 555]

OK I have cupramine in hand... and one clown fish dead by the time I got back from LFS. I will start dosing to save remaining clown fish... I was not sure I could start dosing UNTIL after I had salinity back to normal.

I just realized tonight.. that my remaining clown fish is older then both my kids! Funny my kids are the reason I am going to stay in the hobby.. both expressed wanting to still do this... and that finally they are understanding and finding this fun.. So I think that just gave me the motivation to start over.

Thanks for your kind words...
Neptune...

[Neptune 555]

I will do some research on QT regimen. I had thought I would do hypo for 4 weeks that would bring me to about 6 weeks in QT with raising and lowering salinity. NOW after reading these threads... I want to confirm.
Newsmyra80 - when you Qt your tang for a month what treatment did you use?
Humblefish - what is your QT protocol? I will keep LiveAquaria on my list. Yes I am going to try online ordering since my sick fish were received at LFS and I think they knew what had happened... and let me treat for ich when they knew they sold me a fish with Velvet. anyway...

Neptune

[HumbleFish]

I treat with chloroquine phosphate (thread here (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2136214)) for 4 weeks, and then 2 rounds of Prazipro 5 days apart. Or vice versa. You can substitute 4 weeks of Cupramine if you find CP impossible to find.

For little fish, I've been doing tank transfer lately. Followed by 2 rounds of Prazi. But TT does not treat Velvet, so you still gotta watch for that. Sticky here (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1996525).

[tylersarah]

What can I do now? end the misery for both remaining fish? OR try to raise salinity and then add copper?

My 9 year old clown pair contracted velvet, I saved the female. I too initially thought ich and put them in hypo mistakenly. A fw dip will immediately give her relief, I would do one daily for a week or til you see consistent improvement. Aerate, match temp & pH, then put the fish in a container/bowl, if it lists to the side immediately, gently prod it with your finger, if it lists to the side once again it's time to pull her out otherwise just time and observe. Try for at least 4-5 mins, some days they handle it better than others, but even a 2 min dip is better than no dip. Some fish can easily tolerate 15 mins, remember you're removing parasites from the gills, the longer the better. Then put her back in the QT. I would be hesitant to mix hypo and copper, Humblefish, you think that's alright as long as dosed slowly? How would you accurately measure the dosage? I don't have a good answer.

I would mix a bucket with high salinity 1.045 for example, and drip it into the QT, taking a break every 5 hours or so, I would bring the salinity back to 1.025 over a 2-3 day period. This is what I did with my clowns and then dosed copper. The fw dips are important to give you some time and even after copper is in the water I would fw dip occasionally. I eventually lost the male to internal worms and the female is fully recovered.

After the velvet the fish are susceptible to secondary infection, may want to get some antibiotics, erthyromycin is a good one and nitrofurazone on hand and watch for red streaking, blotches and bumps.

[Neptune 555]

Humblefish.. thanks for the threads... WOW I have to say that sound a bit overwhelming.. digesting information and accessing my ability to do this.

Tank Transfer sounds overwhelming b/c of space and two sets of everything?
I could only find Cupramine not CP.. YET.
In your experience does cupramine even work?
Also I am considering both divers den and LA as possible on line sources to send cleaner fish? I will still QT and treat... but think I may be limited to Curparmine. I am now looking for prazipro to understand that better.

Neptune

[HumbleFish]

tylersarah - I totally forgot about employing f/w dips to provide temp relief for Velvet. So, good call!!! :) Also, snorvich suggests using a formalin bath after the f/w dip in his blog about Velvet here (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/blog.php?b=290).

Normally I wouldn't recommend mixing hypo & copper, but it sounds like this clown needs help ASAP. So, the risk is justified IMO.

Neptune - Cupramine works great for treating most external protozoa, including Velvet. I would also give the clownfish a f/w dip, as per tylersarah's instructions. The f/w dip won't completely "cure" the clownfish, but it might buy you some time until the parasite reaches the point in it's life cycle where the copper can eradicate it. Also, keep raising the SG (again, as per tylersarah's instructions) to get the clown out of hypo conditions. Mixing hypo & Cupramine is less than ideal, but sometimes necessary in emergency situations.

[tylersarah]

1. freshwater dip the fish to free gills of parasites, use airstone, RO water and match pH with soda ash (raises faster) or sodium bicarbonate (a bit easier to raise without over doing it)
2. start dripping high salinity water into the QT, can either set up another drip to drip out of the tank or manually remove water every few hours.
3. Cupramine will work, I would dose it slowly (even more so while in hypo) over a 2-3 day period and not use much more than .35 mg/L as a final concentration

It sounds intimidating at first, but once you get going and see the fish improving and especially once she's recovered it's completely worth it.

[tylersarah]

Oh yeah, and make sure the QT pH is at least 7.9 before you dose copper, the hyposalinity will likely have a lower pH.

[tylersarah]

I have all this stuff bookmarked, save you some time:

Cupramine dosing calculator:

(.381) * (strength of dose) * (gallons being treated) = mL of Cupramine to dose

Example: (.381) * (.5mg/L) * (10.5 gallons) = 2mL of Cupramine to dose slowly over a period of time

[Neptune 555]

tylersarah and humblefish thanks for the information!!

A few questions:
* So Cupramine will work on this even if it was ich and not velvet or fungal
infection?
* The clown died from heavy breathing on observation not even a spot on him?
* The goby had more cottony appearance then velvet? He never did breathe heavy. I still don't know how to ID his illness? also being QT in a 10 gallon I now understand was way to small for these 3 anyway. **will get a 20g QT for next fish purchase. Will keep 10g for Emergency only.

* In the sticky notes when it says copper is that equal to Cupramine?
* When I purchased Cupramine I asked for a test kit and they said no test kit for cupramine unless I purchased the copper solution they had? I did not choose the copper solution b/c in my notes i had written Cupramine was preferred method?

Clown is eating BUT hiding from me.. and at bottom of tank. This is not like her. She is always swimming in the open... SO I assume she has what the other clown died from? Goby never breathed heavy?

Raising salinity now.. will do a freshwater dip after I can get my hands on more RO/DI water. I have not yet installed my RO/DI system.. It was my holiday gift. I get RO/DI from my LFS... I refuse to enter that store again : (

Neptune...

[Neptune 555]

tylersarah - the cupramine dosing chart is awesome! now it finally makes sense.

Example: (.381) * (.5mg/L) * (10.5 gallons) = 2mL of Cupramine to dose slowly over a period of time

Is this always the strength to use? .5mg/l?

after you use cupramine in a QT tank can it ever be used as a reef again? This is not a worry for my 10 G but I was thinking of using my 48 gallon at a QT after this versus purchasing a 20 gallon? BUT after I do my QT's I think I may want to make it a reef again or a FOWLR out of this tank?

Neptune...

[tylersarah]

A few questions:
* So Cupramine will work on this even if it was ich and not velvet or fungal
infection? Cupramine will be effective against velvet and ich, I suspect you have velvet, do the fish have a dusty and/or pinched appearance?
* The clown died from heavy breathing on observation not even a spot on him? Velvet tends to look dusty, some spots may be visible. The parasite entered the gills, hence the need for fw dips for immediate relief
* The goby had more cottony appearance then velvet? He never did breathe heavy. I still don't know how to ID his illness? also being QT in a 10 gallon I now understand was way to small for these 3 anyway. I don't know **will get a 20g QT for next fish purchase. Will keep 10g for Emergency only.The 10 gal can be used for tank transfer method if you like, or a 5 gal bucket filled enough to cover a heater.

* In the sticky notes when it says copper is that equal to Cupramine? Cupramine is a brand of copper, I prefer to use Cupramine because it's non-chelated
* When I purchased Cupramine I asked for a test kit and they said no test kit for cupramine unless I purchased the copper solution they had? I did not choose the copper solution b/c in my notes i had written Cupramine was preferred method? I use a Salifert test kit with Cupramine

Clown is eating BUT hiding from me.. and at bottom of tank. This is not like her. She is always swimming in the open... SO I assume she has what the other clown died from? Goby never breathed heavy? I would fw dip her asap, you can go to the grocery store and purchase RO water from their machines

Raising salinity now.. will do a freshwater dip after I can get my hands on more RO/DI water. I have not yet installed my RO/DI system.. It was my holiday gift. I get RO/DI from my LFS... I refuse to enter that store again : (You can't blame the LFS, no fish store is free of disease, that's why QT is so important. The first 5 gals or so of RO/DI needs to go down the drain anyway, I would go to the LFS (or grocery store) and get some RO

Neptune...

[tylersarah]

tylersarah - the cupramine dosing chart is awesome! now it finally makes sense.

Example: (.381) * (.5mg/L) * (10.5 gallons) = 2mL of Cupramine to dose slowly over a period of time

Is this always the strength to use? .5mg/l? That's the recommended final dosage on the Cupramine bottle, I personally think it is too high. I would used Humblefish's recommendation of .35 as the minimum effective level and remember this needs to be dosed over several days, ESPECIALLY since the fish is in hyposalinity which will increase the copper strength to an unknown level, obviously start slow and test. I wouldn't be comfortable dosing more than .05 mL per day while in hypo, but that's not my area of knowledge. I would fw dip 2x/day until salinity is back to 1.025

after you use cupramine in a QT tank can it ever be used as a reef again? This is not a worry for my 10 G but I was thinking of using my 48 gallon at a QT after this versus purchasing a 20 gallon? BUT after I do my QT's I think I may want to make it a reef again or a FOWLR out of this tank? FOWLR is certainly fine, I'm unsure of a reef, I know Cu can bind to glass, it would have to be thoroughly cleaned.

Neptune...

[Neptune 555]

re: the tank transfer method... If a 10 gallon was to small for 3 fish? how could I put them in a rubbermaid of 5 gallons? But if I could use rubbermaid bins for tank transfer bingo I am all set... b/c it is only for 3 days they are OK? Your help in digesting this information is invaluable.. I have done the reading.. but this is giving me the implementation for my situation. ty!! BUT yes now I get the irony I only have one fish left. : (

Neptune.

[HumbleFish]

I would recommend keeping the Cu level slightly above 0.35 - maybe closer to 0.4 if you can make that determination from the test kit you are using. The reason is you don't want to skirt the minimum line too closely, and you DO want to leave yourself a little wiggle room just in case the copper level drops a tad.

re: tank transfer method... I use two 10 gal tanks to do TT. All equipment is unique to each 10 gal tank, so I can thoroughly sterilize everything in-between transfers (very important). No rocks/sand, only PVC fittings for hiding places. I try to keep the bio-load light, but just recently I successfully QT'd two dwarf angels using TT in a 10 gal. I also once QT'd a 5-inch foxface in a 10 gal using TT (in a pinch). The great thing about TT is you can use ammonia neutralizers to get you thru the 3 days (if need be) because there are no chemicals to interact with. The bad thing is it can be time consuming and you do go thru a lot of salt. I keep IO on hand just for TT. ;)

[Newsmyrna80]

I will do some research on QT regimen. I had thought I would do hypo for 4 weeks that would bring me to about 6 weeks in QT with raising and lowering salinity. NOW after reading these threads... I want to confirm.
Newsmyra80 - when you Qt your tang for a month what treatment did you use?
Humblefish - what is your QT protocol? I will keep LiveAquaria on my list. Yes I am going to try online ordering since my sick fish were received at LFS and I think they knew what had happened... and let me treat for ich when they knew they sold me a fish with Velvet. anyway...

Neptune
At the time I had the tang I just had it in a QT, no meds. However, it came from an LFS that runs low levels of copper through their systems. I recently read, on this forum, that low levels of copper can mask velvet symptoms and it could take 30 days for those symptoms to show. Now I do FW dips, TT along with dosing Prazi. After which I observe for 6 more weeks. I may do another FW dip before they go in the main. I have a Midas Blenny and a Royal Gramma in a QT right now...they've got another month to go.
I will say that one of the best things I bought is a microscope. It can help to identify diseases and parasites to wit proper treatment can be promptly applied as opposed to guessing.

[Neptune 555]

Newsmyrna 80,,,

nice procedure... are you enjoying hobby again? Yes understand tank transfer helps with ich. Just wondering why Prazi only why not Cupramine or both?

neptune

[Newsmyrna80]

I'm loving it again!!:) TT is for ich and it's relatively easy. Cupramine is not well tolerated by all fish so unless they show symptoms of something I don't use it. Prazi on the other hand is well tolerated and I've had my fair share of flukes this year;)
I only have 3 fish in my 80 gallon and I'm taking my time adding more:)