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mpderksen
01/12/2014, 11:59 PM
In an otherwise great reef, the algae is slowly advancing. I know you'll ask, so here's the parameters I can think of:

75gal DT, ~10 gal in 29gal sump
Sg 1.025 (maintained at all times with ATO)
Phos, NOx, none detected
ALK, 9
pH, 8.3
Ca 360 (2-part B-Ionic on dosing pumps)
Mg, 1100 (starting B-Ionic tomorrow to target 1250)
Temp 79.0 (stable with 200W heater and ReefKeeper controller)
Cheato in sump with light on reverse timer
BRS Dual Reactor, using 1/2 cup each of Rox carbon, and BRS GFO, changed every 2 weeks
Circulation at ~900gal/hr from return pump + MP10 on Reef Crest mode
Skimmer: Reek Devil Deluxe, cleaned weekly.
No significant detritus in either sump or overflow
Lighting: LED with 24 blue @ 70% of 1500mw + mix of 16 white, 2 green, 2 red, 4 UV @ 60% of 700mw. Blue channel 10 hours, white channel 9 hours.
CUC includes dozen nassarous, many dwarf cerths, 15 nerites, tuxedo urchin, 4 micro hermits.
Mixed corals from zoa, Rics, hammer, Duncan, monti digi & cap, SPS, rose nem etc.

The are tufts of dirty green algae starting to spread. Too much now to brush off, and frankly that would cause it to spread.
Too much light? Over feeding? Too little GFO? Add the dreaded Turbos? Lawnmower Blennie?

Michael

lrs183
01/13/2014, 12:49 AM
I don't have coral yet but I love my turbo. With not having coral yet I can understand your worry with it but you could get a small one and house it for a bit and then trade/donate it. Mine did a number on initial algae growth that I had.

triggreef
01/13/2014, 01:03 AM
You gotta have po4 or you wouldn't have algae. Try another test kit. Also you might need to change the gfo more often. I have to change mine every 3 weeks or so to really keep up. But you'll need a good low level test kit before you can figure it out.

On a side note, your alk is a little high, in comparison to your lower Ca & mg levels. If you bump the mg a little that might also help your Ca stay up. Or it could be an issue with your dosing. Do you dose equal parts or more alk than the ca? & how often? I found dosing equal parts but less more often not only uses less 2 part, but keeps everything perfectly stable day& night. For example, I dose for 2 minutes every hour, alk on even hrs, ca on odd hrs.

triggreef
01/13/2014, 01:11 AM
You gotta have po4 or you wouldn't have algae. Try another test kit. Also you might need to change the gfo more often. I have to change mine every 3 weeks or so to really keep up. But you'll need a good low level test kit before you can figure it out.

On a side note, your alk is a little high, in comparison to your lower Ca & mg levels. If you bump the mg a little that might also help your Ca stay up. Or it could be an issue with your dosing. Do you dose equal parts or more alk than the ca? & how often? I found dosing equal parts but less more often not only uses less 2 part, but keeps everything perfectly stable day& night. For example, I dose for 2 minutes every hour, alk on even hrs, ca on odd hrs.

mpderksen
01/13/2014, 01:17 AM
You gotta have po4 or you wouldn't have algae. Try another test kit. Also you might need to change the gfo more often. I have to change mine every 3 weeks or so to really keep up. But you'll need a good low level test kit before you can figure it out.

On a side note, your alk is a little high, in comparison to your lower Ca & mg levels. If you bump the mg a little that might also help your Ca stay up. Or it could be an issue with your dosing. Do you dose equal parts or more alk than the ca? & how often? I found dosing equal parts but less more often not only uses less 2 part, but keeps everything perfectly stable day& night. For example, I dose for 2 minutes every hour, alk on even hrs, ca on odd hrs.

GFO/carbon only went online 2 weeks ago, and I refreshed it today. Is there a value in using more, or change more than every 2 weeks?
Both dosing pumps are connected to the same outlet on my controller, and it runs 4 min, @ 10:00pm each night. Tested, they add 1.4ml/min. I could manually add more of the part 1 for now until I get it to the target of 480. (No more outlets on the PC4 unless I disconnect the heater, but I like the controller back-up). I just got the Mg supplement and Red Sea test this week, so bumping that slowly starts tomorrow.
My Phos test is junk, I know that. Time for a Hanna.

Assuming PO4 is high, other than patience with the new reactor, what steps? A few days of black-out? Less light/day for a while? Strain my food?

JB63
01/13/2014, 03:36 AM
For the BRS to work properly, must have a specific flow through GFO. Flow should be such that GFO grains are tumbled lightly. May want to adjust with valve ...
Other than that, changing every 2 weeks is more than enough.

jdaniels175
01/13/2014, 06:59 AM
Assuming PO4 is high, other than patience with the new reactor, what steps? A few days of black-out? Less light/day for a while? Strain my food?

wouldn't hurt to try these things, although the food straining i personally think is overblown, but try it if you want wont hurt. it wont reduce PO4, but may help you get a leg up on the algae as your other other steps take effect. and as for the phosphate test, i may be in the minority here but i don't think you need one. That green stuff you see growing is the best PO4 test you have. When it stops growing you know you have reduced nutrients enough that you are on the right track. A number on a test is just a number. if you are looking to reduce PO4 for anther reason ie. color color than that is a different animal.

mpderksen
01/13/2014, 11:04 AM
I like to change only one thing at time. Usually.
I saw a video from Mr. Saltwater TV, where he helped a guy by installing a reactor like mine, and a 3-day black-out.
If I wrap the tank for 3 days, do I feed at all? Seems cruel not to.

jdaniels175
01/13/2014, 11:54 AM
you can feed, but to be honest 3 days without food is fine. not feeding might also help you get a jump start on lowering PO4 too. I have done several "lights out" when facing cyano, diatoms, etc. I have never done a total blackout with wrapping the tank. Especially if the tank is established, they will find pods and stuff to snack on.

AndysReef
01/13/2014, 12:10 PM
You gotta have po4 or you wouldn't have algae.

Not exactly true, there are phosphates but they are getting eaten up by the algae, so they won't show up on your test kit. Test kits only test for SRPs, not the phosphates that could be locked inside of the rock, or other phosphates that are the cause of the algae.

brandon429
01/13/2014, 12:15 PM
what is your backup plan if your tank is one of the ones that have total phosphate control and still the same growth? we can link threads really easily that show X invader in spite of controlled phosphates, before the algae invasion. tanks set up with phosphate control.

not casting a bleak forecast just considering a backup plan. we need pics Im curious. you know what Im about to recommend but I think we should consider the other more common options first, pics w help
pics start the document to see what works and I dont remember how your tank looked but I remember talking about it with ya a few weeks ago

phosphate starving is great for prevention and if you dont overstrip it, it can remove algae as well. it would be nice to see a phosphate test off the rocks not the water column...where you test a known rock sample that set in 0 phosphate water for a couple days, see if that formerly clean sample now has a po4 reading indicating rock bound nutrients

brandon429
01/13/2014, 12:32 PM
the specific answer to your question is undebatable. some choose to fix now some choose natural, or more longer term modes and hope those work. wrecked tank threads exist for both options, so its keepers choice no right answer.

there is only one known method in reefkeeping that prevents all algae invasions, in all water parameters...simply disallowing it. algae cannot overtake a tank if it is immediately removed from the rock by whatever method you want. many exist. Its the hands off methods that have so-so results, but for example when I used to lift out my rocks and burn off the algae with a creme broulee torch there was never any algae.

Sure, if I had great p04 control and no rock loading it would have already been controlled, but thats not the question. the question was remove or not, I chose remove yesterday.

mpderksen
01/14/2014, 10:13 AM
Brandon, thanks for chiming in. At 6 months old, I suspect that what I face is fairly typical. Everything takes that long to simply stabilize. But in the meantime, if I don't get in there with a toothbrush, I'll end up so far behind that I'll end up discouraged like so many others. My guess is that if it was gone today, it would be under control, but it's not going to recede with water changes at this point.
So let's talk about physical removal: I stuck all the rock together in the initial build, so individual scorched earth isn't an option. Last night I cut some egg crate to fit the overflow, much like the MediaBasket that I had in my BC29. I need some acrylic rod to make legs, or it will just slip to the bottom. I don't want to run a sock to catch what I scrub off. The skimmer section where the return is has too little room. Simply not practical. So the plan is just to get out the tooth brush (with the main pump off). net as much as possible, then let the floss catch it to keep it out of the sump.
I'll also pick up a few turbos and Astrea (sp?) snails today on the way home.
I cut the photo period from 9 hours to 5 for now. Hopefully the SPS won't suffer. Over this week, I'll slowly raise my Ca and Mg levels to 460 and 1250, respectively.
I will also reduce feeding a bit, FWTW.

Can you suggest anything else? I'm open to other herbivores, like a sea hare, as long as they are compatible long term with my current livestock.

Pictures can be taken tonight when I get home.

mpderksen
01/14/2014, 10:31 AM
I'm game to try the peroxide deal, but I'm not really clear on the "how" part, since the issues are mostly on base rock that would require almost complete tear-down to get out to dip. Do you want to either PM, or email me once you see the pics?
Mpderksen.at.gmail

brandon429
01/14/2014, 11:13 AM
we can do underwater treatments on it without removing it since Im at work I have to kinda check in every few 20 mins or so let me ask you this detail real quick

-do you have cleaner shrimp or anemones, even if so we just need to know ahead of time

-we aren't spending two hours doing your whole tank, this is a no commitment test. we will simply test one spot first if that works we know to move on. simple test coming. need full tank shot pics

brandon429
01/14/2014, 11:17 AM
everything we are about to try is featured in the last 10 pages of this thread

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2082359&page=60

mpderksen
01/14/2014, 01:49 PM
we can do underwater treatments on it without removing it since Im at work I have to kinda check in every few 20 mins or so let me ask you this detail real quick

-do you have cleaner shrimp or anemones, even if so we just need to know ahead of time

-we aren't spending two hours doing your whole tank, this is a no commitment test. we will simply test one spot first if that works we know to move on. simple test coming. need full tank shot pics

Yes. Cleaner shrimp and a rose bubble nem.
Holding off on any other changes until we speak and you get pictures.

mpderksen
01/17/2014, 10:32 PM
Bought a sea hare, and 5 small Turbos. Tomorrow I get the toothbrush and siphon out prior to the water change. I'll use a hose with the brush that will dump through a sock into the Brute so I can cycle through that water several times before I replace it with fresh.
My goal is to have an ecosystem that is stable, but take extra steps to get it under control. A reasonable level of growth is expected, and a balanced CUC should keep it clean with drastic intervention.

mpderksen
01/20/2014, 04:44 PM
Today: toothbrush as much as reasonable. Used a net to skim off a great deal of the floaties. Put a fresh sock on the return, and a filter pad between chambers 2 and 3. Fresh cup of GFO and carbon. Cleaned the skimmer. 10 gal water change. Wrapped in black plastic and lights out. I can still access the sump, so daily sock rinsing won't be a problem.

I am assuming that my fish and corals can survive this way for 3-4 days, but if I'm wrong, please let me know ASAP.

Anything else I can do in the meantime that you can think of?

wrott
01/20/2014, 04:56 PM
I would feed the fish during lights out (turn on lights for an hr to feed).
I lost 2 precious anthias by taking the 3 days black-out advice, I had had them for years.

mpderksen
01/20/2014, 05:52 PM
I would feed the fish during lights out (turn on lights for an hr to feed).
I lost 2 precious anthias by taking the 3 days black-out advice, I had had them for years.

With anthias that makes sense. I'll do the same. Did the black-out result in algae reduction?

Squidmotron
01/20/2014, 06:09 PM
This happened to me when my tank was young and I had filled it with treated tapwater.

Every single rock and surface was covered with massive quantities of hair algae.

I turned the lights out for 3 days, and dosed AlgaeFix. At the end of the period, I did a water change.

When the tank came back on, I made sure to have phosphate reducers and a nice skimmer in place so that the algae wouldn't come back.

There was not a single shred of algae anywhere in the tank.

I never got hair algae again.

wrott
01/20/2014, 11:59 PM
With anthias that makes sense. I'll do the same. Did the black-out result in algae reduction?

I was trying to reduce cyanobacteria, it was not worth it.

barjam
01/21/2014, 07:23 AM
Your CUC is useless. Throw in about 20 astrea or trochus snails and see what you get.

I ditched all my useless hermits and put in about 40 astrea into my 120 and algae is rapidly going away. IMHO gfo is good for slowing/stopping new algae but not great at eliminating algae.

mpderksen
01/22/2014, 09:55 AM
Your CUC is useless. Throw in about 20 astrea or trochus snails and see what you get.
.

If they're the magic bullet, why am I just hearing this now? And why even sell anything else? Lol.

I'm still mid-blackout. But my next commute part the LSF is tomorrow. I'll take a peek under the plastic tomorrow morning and see how it's going.

Any other comments about AlgaeFix? I hate to add chemical without some further advice.

D-Nak
01/22/2014, 03:39 PM
Your CUC is useless. Throw in about 20 astrea or trochus snails and see what you get.

I ditched all my useless hermits and put in about 40 astrea into my 120 and algae is rapidly going away. IMHO gfo is good for slowing/stopping new algae but not great at eliminating algae.

I typically don't recommend doing this. Most people over-do their CUCs with snails and then some end up starving, and actually make conditions worse as they die (plus, it's a waste of money). It's tough to balance algae growth with algae eaters, so I usually recommend a smaller CUC and building it up based on demand, rather than the other way around.

Keep in mind that while algae is unsightly, it's really not doing any harm unless it's overtaking and killing your coral. A good, constant mixed attack IMO is the best -- use GFO to take care of excess phosphate, have grazers like tangs and blennies to eat hair and surface algae, and a CUC of snails and hermits (they can get into spots snails often miss) to take care of the rest. You can also include speciality inverts like emerald crabs if you have valonia. Finally, I know you call turbos "dreaded" but I think they do a great job of eating certain types of algae, and if your frags are glued down, they shouldn't knock anything over.

If you can show us a photo of the algae you're trying to remove, we can also help you figure out the best way to remove it. For example, if it turns out to be a calciferous algae, we can tell you that most snails and hermits won't eat it.

barjam
01/22/2014, 04:28 PM
I typically don't recommend doing this. Most people over-do their CUCs with snails and then some end up starving, and actually make conditions worse as they die (plus, it's a waste of money). It's tough to balance algae growth with algae eaters, so I usually recommend a smaller CUC and building it up based on demand, rather than the other way around.

Keep in mind that while algae is unsightly, it's really not doing any harm unless it's overtaking and killing your coral. A good, constant mixed attack IMO is the best -- use GFO to take care of excess phosphate, have grazers like tangs and blennies to eat hair and surface algae, and a CUC of snails and hermits (they can get into spots snails often miss) to take care of the rest. You can also include speciality inverts like emerald crabs if you have valonia. Finally, I know you call turbos "dreaded" but I think they do a great job of eating certain types of algae, and if your frags are glued down, they shouldn't knock anything over.

If you can show us a photo of the algae you're trying to remove, we can also help you figure out the best way to remove it. For example, if it turns out to be a calciferous algae, we can tell you that most snails and hermits won't eat it.

I certainly wouldn't argue with your basic point I just don't feel 20 is all that much for that size of tank *if* he has an algae problem. Certainly nothing wrong with ramping it up over time instead though.

barjam
01/22/2014, 04:30 PM
If they're the magic bullet, why am I just hearing this now? And why even sell anything else? Lol.

I'm still mid-blackout. But my next commute part the LSF is tomorrow. I'll take a peek under the plastic tomorrow morning and see how it's going.

Any other comments about AlgaeFix? I hate to add chemical without some further advice.

They aren't a magic bullet it is just the items in your CUC are next to useless in my opinion.

AlgaeFix is a band aid and there is a decent chance it won't kill your algae but will harm your livestock (that was my experience). There is also a good chance you will have decent luck with it as well. It is a gamble.

mpderksen
01/22/2014, 08:37 PM
So should I end my lights-out? End of day 2 at this point.

mpderksen
01/23/2014, 09:57 PM
Made it, all three days without freaking out. I pulled back the sheet expecting a swamp of death surrounded by sheets of algae. Quite the opposite!
Significant reduction in algae, and everything, including the SPS was extended and colorful within an hour of turning on the lights.
The oddest thing is that some rocks are 110% clean! but other areas still have "healthy", though smaller tufts of GHA. I removed the sock, which was now overflowing enough that I knew it was full. I washed the skimmer cup. I also added a second 10ml dose of AlgaeFix.
I've reduced the lighting to 7 hours, ramping an hour on each end.
The only damage, if you can call it that, is that my rose nem moved from the perfect spot back into the rocks a bit, and the 1 SPS frag that wasn't glued down was at the bottom. Fortunately upright and not broken.
I do NOT want to repeat the blackout, so, I'm going to be the king of proper maintenance. Hopefully it's headed in the right direction and will continue the retreat. Not expecting magic, but getting back into balance, with dose pumps, and the GFO reactor, proper feeding and lighting I will have a reef instead of a lawn.
Thanks for the advice.

Cheers,

Michael