Trachyphyllia/Scolymia bleaching under certain LEDs?

[asylumdown]

In the nearly two years that I've had this tank, I've had 5 Trachyphyllia corals and two scolymia corals. The tank is a 6'x3', 27-25" deep (depending on the sand depth) and is lit by 8, gen 1 radions. That radions run a custom program, maxing out at 75% overall intensity with all channels at 100% for 3 hours every day, with the balance of the day cycle being a ramp up in intensity from about 18K then back down, so the white red and green diodes are on at some level of intensity for pretty much the entire day.

The tank is SPS dominant, and so far every species of SPS I've put in has thrived. Some corals go through a several month temper tantrum as they adjust to the LEDs, shifting colours up to 4 times before they decide what they want to be and really take off in growth, while start sending out new growth within a couple of weeks.

However, I have zero success with Trachyphyllia, Scolymia, all chalice corals, and many of the Acanthastrea species in this tank. Out of the 5 Trachyphyllias I've had, only two are still alive/with me, and none of the chalices or scolies are still around.

The pattern with them is always the same - trachies and scolies bleach over the course of a month until their colours are a faded pastel; deep reds become light pinks, greens practically turn white, and when the corals is expanded, it's flesh becomes borderline transparent. With scolies, this is then followed by slow tissue recession where skeletal fins burst through the tissue, followed within a month by complete tissue loss. This takes place regardless of where they're placed, though it's much, much faster if they're not placed on the sand bed. For reference, here's a comparison pic of a scolie that went from a pico tank, to a tank lit by radions:

Before:
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g411/asylumdown/f8d682bd.jpg (http://s1100.photobucket.com/user/asylumdown/media/f8d682bd.jpg.html)
After:
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g411/asylumdown/b5bfb1ea.jpg (http://s1100.photobucket.com/user/asylumdown/media/b5bfb1ea.jpg.html)

I thought it might be a water quality issue, so with a mid sized chalice colony, I placed half in the shade of an overhang, and half exposed to light. The bleaching (which eventually killed it) took place primarily on the portion exposed to light, you could actually see the line of the shadow after about a week. I tried the same thing with a larger trachie, and had similar results.

In the spring, I took my last remaining Trachyphyllia specimens and a few acans frags that were limping sadly along in the big tank and placed them in a 4 gallon pico tank, lit by a single Kessil A150 Ocean Blue, hung about 12 inches above the actual corals, so a pretty decent amount of light. It took over 2 months, but they all completely recovered their original deep, radiant, lustrous colours. They also started growing, so I had to sell one of the trachies because 4 gallons is not a lot of space to play with. I broke that tank down at the end of the summer and moved all corals back to the big tank, either on the sand bed or partially shaded, and every single one of them quickly returned to a bleached out, nearly transparent state. I set that pico up again a couple of weeks ago and they're already starting to recover in it.

So here's my question:
Is this a common experience? Euphyllias thrive under my radions, as does the one Australian Blastomussa colony I've got. SPS grow like weeds, and have incredible coloration. It's clearly not LEDs per se, as the bleached specimens recover just fine under a different LED fixture, but the lights they do well under are more heavily weighted towards blue and have no red or green diodes. I thought this must mean they were simply deep water corals, but a bit of reading reveals that trachyphyllias are typically shallow water corals, so in the wild they're exposed to a stronger, warmer colour temperature with at least some red in it.

Any thoughts?

[wildman926]

I have experienced the exact ame scenario. I added back my T5 HO's, and my color is coming back. after only a week. Nothing fancy, just two double bulb 36" Current USA fixtures to cover my 6' 150g, using an ATI Aquablue Special and one TrueLumen 460 bulb.

[asylumdown]

I've been tempted to try playing with my radion program to try and find one that makes trachyphyllias happy, but my SPS are doing so well with it as it is, I don't want to jeopardize them. What I can't figure out is if it's the red/green specific diodes that they don't like, the overall intensity, or the ratios of the wavelengths that's causing the bleaching in those specific families of corals.

[jedimasterben]

Have you ever thought that you're just giving it too much light? You have eight Radions going to 100% intensity. Verify with a PAR meter.

[wildman926]

Have you ever thought that you're just giving it too much light? You have eight Radions going to 100% intensity. Verify with a PAR meter.

I had a dimmer, scaled the 3rd LED strip back, no difference. Took it off, and put on my T5's, color is coming back nicely on my trachy's and open brains. Only those are affected. This is on my 150g LPS tank.

On my 90g softie, my anemones and leathers responded immediately, and within a few days, the beautiful yellow color came back on my Fiji leather.

When you see the change on two separate, independent tanks, set up identically, it is hard to deny what I have seen with my own eyes.

[asylumdown]

Have you ever thought that you're just giving it too much light? You have eight Radions going to 100% intensity. Verify with a PAR meter.


They're actually only hitting 75% max intensity. When they're at that point, all channels are at 100%, but that's relative to each other. Total intensity is still only 75%. But that was my first guess too. I've had my lights down as low as 60% max intensity and it still happened. However, their depth ranges can extend from 10 feet all the way down to 100 feet, so it's possible that I just so happen to have purchased specimens that are natively adapted to much lower light levels (I haven't had many, it's an expensive thing to keep failing at), or perhaps simply light with little to no red at all.

[asylumdown]

I had a dimmer, scaled the 3rd LED strip back, no difference. Took it off, and put on my T5's, color is coming back nicely on my trachy's and open brains. Only those are affected. This is on my 150g LPS tank.



On my 90g softie, my anemones and leathers responded immediately, and within a few days, the beautiful yellow color came back on my Fiji leather.



When you see the change on two separate, independent tanks, set up identically, it is hard to deny what I have seen with my own eyes.


What colors are in your led strips?

[jedimasterben]

They're actually only hitting 75% max intensity. When they're at that point, all channels are at 100%, but that's relative to each other. Total intensity is still only 75%. But that was my first guess too. I've had my lights down as low as 60% max intensity and it still happened. However, their depth ranges can extend from 10 feet all the way down to 100 feet, so it's possible that I just so happen to have purchased specimens that are natively adapted to much lower light levels (I haven't had many, it's an expensive thing to keep failing at), or perhaps simply light with little to no red at all.

If they were bleached out from red light, then no one that has halides or T5 arrays would be able to keep them. Radions emit tiny amounts of red light.

[wildman926]

What colors are in your led strips?

They are full spectrum LED strips.

[wildman926]

Just to clarify, I added back my T5's, and still kept 2 LED strips, a 14000k, and a Actinic. They are from BuildMyLED.com. I am getting coloration back rapidly.

[erndog1001]

Well I don't have any Trachyphyllia(yet lol) But I do have Scolmia AcanthoPhyllia SPS Wellso Brain (2) Etc Etc Under 2 Gen 2s & 2 Pros Running a very similar profile to yours and I have nothing but good things happening.
1 Brain is like 24" from the lights The other along with the Scoly Acanthophyllia are like 30" or so from them

[asylumdown]

That is very interesting... I wonder if I've just been unlucky to get specimens that require less intense lighting? I haven't had that many after all.

[Jpugh73]

Looks like it time for a new species specific tank

[ali1]

Interesting that you say this. Im running into a similar issue with my weslos/tracaphyilia hard as a rock. When the leds are off or replaced with metal halides, they are fleshy and expand huge.

[dkeller_nc]

Have you considered that the issues with these corals might be the lack of far-UV under the Gen 1 Radions? Mike Paletta ran an experiment with AI Sols (that contain only blue & white diodes, with no UV or red/green) and noted that while some corals did well, the LPS acans and trachys suffered tissue loss in this tank:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4yIEIM1R48

[jedimasterben]

Mike Paletta is a joke, FYI.

"LEDs made my corals shear the flesh from their skeletons, it had nothing to do with the chemical drying agents used when I had a flood in my house, nope, it was the LEDs." etc

He lost every ounce of credibility in that video.

[ali1]

x2

Id imagine if AIs were the cause, more people would complain about the fixture.

[jedimasterben]

There are loads of coral farms out there that are switching to LEDs, and most of them are using the cheapo 50/50 cool white and blue fixtures from China (which are even more anemic spectrally than the AI fixtures), and if LEDs could possibly cause anything like this, then they would all still be using metal halides - but more and more are switching every day, so it's definitely false.

[mussel and hate]

I think it's a bit inapropriate to call Mike Paletta a joke. While I'm not a fan of his infomercials on 'Murican reef channel Mr. Paletta has a lot of experience in the hobby regardless of his other credentials or lack thereof. We all like to express our opinions and there's bound to be some disagreements.

It may in fact be that certain corals respond negatively to the presence or lack of specific narrow bandwidth light sources or their relative intensity. Some experiments however flawed have demonstrated this phenomenon.

I for one believe the light source is the issue for the OPs bleaching issue. I don't think the problem is LEDs in general but the spectrum generated by his particular LEDs and the requirements of his particular Trachyphyllia and Scolymia corals. There exists an opportunity for some home experimental research here.

[Fredfish]

Mike Paletta is a joke, FYI.

"LEDs made my corals shear the flesh from their skeletons, it had nothing to do with the chemical drying agents used when I had a flood in my house, nope, it was the LEDs." etc

He lost every ounce of credibility in that video.
We all come to 'odd' conclusions from time to time. Are you talking about the American Reef Channel series? At some point Mr. Paletta realized his issue was flatworms and not the LED lights and he is now moving forward with a rather interesting hybrid LED MH lighting system.

While Mr. Paletta does not take a particularly technical approach to reefkeeping, he is still quite knowledgable and has spent a very long time in the hobby trying and succeeding in keeping corals alive well before whe had any idea what their requirements were.

Edit: OK, I opened the link and that is the series. Watch the next episode. Context is everything...

[samaytt]

Had the same effects on my trachys, wellsos and symphyllias when switched over from AI Sol blue to the new Hydras. Turned out I had the reds/greens too high. Colors have come back after lowering these between 20-25% throughout the day.

Good luck!

[Reefer54]

There are loads of coral farms out there that are switching to LEDs, and most of them are using the cheapo 50/50 cool white and blue fixtures from China (which are even more anemic spectrally than the AI fixtures), and if LEDs could possibly cause anything like this, then they would all still be using metal halides - but more and more are switching every day, so it's definitely false.


I personally would love to see what credible information you have to merit this claim....both that "loads" of farms are switching and "most of them are using the cheapo..."



But to the issue of the OP, what is your light acclimation like in the sps dom tank when you add a scoly or trach; you may need to totally shade them for a bit..... and nutrient load could also be an issue as those are both nutrient loving species. I am curious to see what you find.

[jcdeng]

To the OP, I have a similar experience where I lost 3/4 of my chalice collection and I only have my leds max at 38%. My acans are ok, but the chalice died off 1 by 1 slowly bleaching and losing tissue. Also 1 trach looked exactly like yours and ended up in similar bleached colors. SPS are loving the LEDs though

[dn100]

Hi jcdeng, what LEDs are you using?
Thanks

[jcdeng]

Pac sun b4, now ati led powermodule.

[alexx2208]

I have also had this problem with my Ai Sols/Hydras...... I purchased a Trachy and 3 Fungia corals that seemed happy for about a week, then randomly died, not sure if its because of the leds, but everything was in check at that point in time.

I have 2 Scolymias under them, and haven't had any problems, so I cannot tell if its the Ai's

[afm32607]

I know this is an old post, but I am having a similar problem. I have a trachy that was big and fleshy for almost a year under an ATI Hybrid T5/LED fixture.

I then added in some fish (kole tang, coral beauty, pair of wrasse, couple clowns) from another tank that was being broken down. To compensate for the increased bioload I then started dosing NOPOx.

Shortly after the fish addition the trachy bleached. Nothing was picking on it. SPS are fine, euphylia are fine, zoas are mostly fine, goniopora are fine, duncan coral is fine

I moved the trachy to my coral QT tank (Radion Xr15 pro) and now it seems to have recolored and puffed back up in like two weeks. I'd like to move it back to the display tank.

Wondering if anyone has any thoughts? Can it be the lights due to increase in clarity from the NOPOx? I moved it to a shady spot it seemed to do nothing, but I can find an even shadier spot. Par on the bottom is 200 to 250 ish.

I also have flatworms though they don't seem to bother anything, I've had them since set up and dip my corals.

[wildman926]

I know this is an old post, but I am having a similar problem. I have a trachy that was big and fleshy for almost a year under an ATI Hybrid T5/LED fixture.

I then added in some fish (kole tang, coral beauty, pair of wrasse, couple clowns) from another tank that was being broken down. To compensate for the increased bioload I then started dosing NOPOx.

Shortly after the fish addition the trachy bleached. Nothing was picking on it. SPS are fine, euphylia are fine, zoas are mostly fine, goniopora are fine, duncan coral is fine

I moved the trachy to my coral QT tank (Radion Xr15 pro) and now it seems to have recolored and puffed back up in like two weeks. I'd like to move it back to the display tank.

Wondering if anyone has any thoughts? Can it be the lights due to increase in clarity from the NOPOx? I moved it to a shady spot it seemed to do nothing, but I can find an even shadier spot. Par on the bottom is 200 to 250 ish.

I also have flatworms though they don't seem to bother anything, I've had them since set up and dip my corals.

Did you test your phosphates/nitrates before dosing NOPOx? Corals need a tad, too much and you get hair algae. I would stop dosing NOPOx and let the tank do its thing.

[afm32607]

No, I typically do it by sight, I understand corals need some nitrates and phosphates, if SPS start losing color or i develop dino's I scale the dosing back, if algae starts spreading quickly I scale it up a bit (usually do adjustments on a monthly timescale if needed).

Its a heavily stocked tank based on size, and nothing else is having any issue.