Adding bio-spira to a large system.

[MikesReef83]

I have a 90 gallon show tank, 150 gallon sump, and 50 gallon refegium. Im not sure how much bio-spira I should get to help kick start the cycle. Between the tank and sump I have approximately 150 lbs of dry pukani rock. Im not really sure how much water volume it will be after the rock.

[MikesReef83]

No love??

[bertoni]

I don't bother with the bacterial supplements because I don't think they do much over the long haul.

[dh350twin]

I think they can be beneficial i prefer micro-bacter 7

[Glenfwb]

I have had great success with Dr. Tim's One and Only bacteria. Have used it personally and in a commercial system.

I have a 90 gallon show tank, 150 gallon sump, and 50 gallon refegium. Im not sure how much bio-spira I should get to help kick start the cycle. Between the tank and sump I have approximately 150 lbs of dry pukani rock. Im not really sure how much water volume it will be after the rock.

[bertoni]

How do you know that they did anything?

[Real Reefer]

Stay away from those and save your money, few people will swear by it but have no proof lol

[MikesReef83]

There's a lot of back and forth. I appreciate the opinions. I'm in no hurry. Patience is no problem for me. I've just read people say it really helps the cycle. I wasn't sure if just adding a few pieces of live rock would be enough.

[bertoni]

In theory, adding bacteria could speed the curing process, at least in some cases, but I'm skeptical about the implementation. The end result is the same, effectively. You have a tank with no large amounts of organic debris and some sort of bacterial population.

[MarineSniper]

I was given a free sample of Aquabella; a bacterial supplement similar to the ones listed above. I decided to try it on my nps tank since I would be able to verify if it did anything, since the water parameters, specifically Nh, No2 and No3 spike rapidly on a very regular schedule, signaling the need for a water change

The directions almost scared me out of using it. No skimming and no water changes for 4 weeks. This was my old nps tank of 75g and required a 20% change every 7 days, as nitrates would begin to spike on day 8, consistently. Went ahead with the product, as directed and checked ammonia, nitrites and nitrates every other day, anticipating a massive spike. 28 days later, without a skimmer and purposely feeding as usual, my nitrates were still at 5, using a Salifert test. This is a system that gets fed over 2lbs of frozen food per month and, other than a massive cuc, uses a standard skimmer, sump/fuge, media reactor filtration process

While I didn't have the means to check the nitrifying bacteria numbers, I had to consistently test my nitrate levels to keep the water clear and the only thing that changed that month was the addition of the Aquabella probiotic. I'm not one that adds anything to my tanks and generally don't buy into most of the hype they claim. I went into this product's use fully expecting it to fail; especially in that tank, with its huge bio load. While this isn't an endorsement, nor a definitive claim of effectiveness since my method was far from any scientific model, but it was/is irrefutable proof to Me of its value. It has paid for itself, by cutting my water changes to once every other week vs being required to do double that before its use. My experience, for what it's worth!

[MarineSniper]

Sorry, meant to add that I always use this for curing rock, now. While I also use tank water, after a recent change, I don't worry about rock from the system. I believe the combination both provide and fuel good bacterial growth and I usually recommend this to people who are considering using live rock from another's tank to seed their new rock

[bertoni]

We see a lot of reports of various results from dosing bacteria. All in all, I haven't seen anything that makes me believe that they're effective. People report good results; people report no effect.

[Glenfwb]

How do you gauge the value of anything you use in your system....you test and monitor the water parameters. It would be nice if there was a simple "bacteria" test, but we all know for the hobbyist that doesn't exist. But, I am able to monitor the cycle process through testing. If I see a significant difference in the time it takes to cycle a tank, as well as a difference in the water parameters that occur while that tank is cycling, it is easy to conclude whether the product has had any effect. I have cycled enough tanks over 50 years without the use of "bottled bacteria", as many older hobbyists have done. One advantage of age is that you have a database of success and failures to reference back too. Like anything we add to our tanks, using it correctly is always important. I can honestly say that I have seen a measured difference using Dr. Tim's, others may not and that is fine. I continue to use it on a regular basis.

How do you know that they did anything?

[nexusnight]

ive used the bio spira in every tank ive set up as it nullifies the cycle in my experience. i have a 170G system currently and used two lrg bottles. Tested parameters daily for two weeks and no spikes, since then i have seen nitrates rise slightly and manage them via water changes and now im using KZ start3 and bak opposed to pellets. the product has worked great for me. I should mention when i set up my first tank My lfs sold me biospira because that's what he uses whenever he sets up a new tank, fresh saltwater,dry eco rock and bio spira= fish same day no ill side effects, ever. i had the same success:spin1:.

[sean2sean]

i used bio spira in my 450 gallon system and it help speed up the cycle. i tested parameters for about 3 weeks (every other day) and did not get any spikes.

i added livestock about 2 weeks into my new tank setup.

will use again and recommend to friends.

[Benson0219]

I used Dr. Tim's in my 40 gallon breeder, 90 gallon reef, and my 100 gallon reef. I first tested it on my 20 gallon long. Results were just as advertised. Then used it on my other tanks.

[bnumair]

bacteria we need cannot last the factory and shelf process. Strands you get in bottles also does not last in our systems but are not the bacteria we are looking for in long run.
I personally dont have any faith in such products but this is just a personal thing.

[duberz]

All do respect times have changed.No need to wait on an old school cycle with the products available today.I always use a bottle of dr tims and it works....quick.

[bertoni]

I always use a bottle of dr tims and it works....quick.
How do you know that it does anything?

Lots of people, including me, have "cycled" tanks basically instantly by using cured live rock, no bacterial products required.

[Glenfwb]

How do you know when your tank is cycled with live rock? How do you know that your live rock has worked? If you do know it is cycled, it is because you measure the results. If you can do that with live rock, why can't others do the same thing with bacteria cycled tanks??

Some people like myself do not want the problems of live rock, therefore bacteria is a great resource.

How do you know that it does anything?

Lots of people, including me, have "cycled" tanks basically instantly by using cured live rock, no bacterial products required.

[Glenfwb]

Just wondering if you would say that Dr. Tim is being dishonest about his product, or his research is inferior to yours? I have no stake in his company or his product...I am just a consumer. But it seems that your statement might apply to early strains of bacteria that existed, but does not reflect some of the recent developments that some like Dr. Tim have made.

bacteria we need cannot last the factory and shelf process. Strands you get in bottles also does not last in our systems but are not the bacteria we are looking for in long run.
I personally dont have any faith in such products but this is just a personal thing.

[duberz]

We'll My last setup was bare bottom and dry aquamaxx rock from marine depot.I filled up the tank on a Friday along with a bottle of dr tims and dosed amonia.By the following Friday tank was ready for the transfer of all my fish and corals.

[bertoni]

How do you know when your tank is cycled with live rock? How do you know that your live rock has worked? If you do know it is cycled, it is because you measure the results. If you can do that with live rock, why can't others do the same thing with bacteria cycled tanks??
The problem is that you don't know what the measurements would have been without the bacteria.

In my case, I know the tank is "cycled" for some value of cycled because I added animals and food and never saw an ammonia spike.

[Glenfwb]

I don't wish to be difficult or belabor the point, but I don't follow the logic. You say you can measure your live rock cycle by the fact that you add animals and food, and you don't have an ammonia spike. But if someone who cycles with bacteria does the same thing, they can't know what the measurements would have been.

If you were saying bottled bacteria doesn't work, although I would disagree with you, I could at least understand your position. But if you say that the problem with bottled bacteria is, you can't know or judge if it works....well the simple answer is, you judge whether it works the same way as you do ANY bacteria source.

It doesn't matter WHERE you get your source of bacteria, whether in a bottle, live rock, live sand, seeded water, etc. You know when you have cycled your system, when your environment is able to convert ammonia effectively and safely. All I am saying is, myself and others have seen bacteria do this for us again and again. Therefore, I am able to conclude it works. I know this because I am able to measure parameters throughout the process that confirms Nitrite, Nitrate, and Ammonia levels. Pretty simple really.

I KNOW what the water parameters would be if I did nothing, BUT I also know what the levels ARE. I would encourage people to explore Dr. Tim's One and Only Bacteria, watch the many informational videos he produces, and judge for yourself.

Live rock and other sources are also viable options that many of us have used for years. They all can work....use the one that fits your needs the best.


The problem is that you don't know what the measurements would have been without the bacteria.

In my case, I know the tank is "cycled" for some value of cycled because I added animals and food and never saw an ammonia spike.

[bertoni]

You don't know what the water parameters would be if you didn't add the bacteria. I think the bacteria products basically have no effect. Yes, you and I both can tell we have working bacterial filtration, but I haven't seen any demonstrated advantage of spending money on bacterial additives. We both arrive at the same point, with or without them.

[Glenfwb]

I only respond to this because your response gave me a good laugh. Thank you for clearing up what I don't know about my system. It actually is pretty easy to tell how an untreated system will behave. But we will drop that sense it really isn't a part of the original question.

The thing we can agree on is your statement, "I think the bacteria products." I am okay with you having this opinion. You "think" it has no effect, I on the other hand have had it proven to me that it does. We just have to leave it at that. You can't prove to me that it hasn't worked for me and others I know...you can only prove it hasn't worked for you. I actually set up two tanks to test Dr. Tim's when it first came out. I cycled one tank with Dr. Tim's and the other tank the old fashioned way. The results were dramatic. So yes, I can say it worked in a control setting, and it has worked over the last year. I know what the untreated tank acted like, and I know what the bacteria tank parameters were. Exact science...nope, but good enough for me.

Finally, the point of bottled bacteria is not that you can't cycle a tank without it. As we know there a multiple ways to accomplish the same goal. I find your statement, "I haven't seen any demonstrated advantage of spending money...." to be funny only because you were advocating cycling the tank with live rock. For the average person, bacteria is FAR less expensive then live rock. Using your reasoning, I would say there is no advantage to spending the time, money, and critter dangers that live rock presents.

Yes, I agree we both arrive at the same point, but in my experience I arrive quicker, with less expense, and no danger of hitchhikers in my rock. I am a guy that generally likes the old proven methods. But in this instance, I set up a test to prove Dr. Tim's didn't work, and it proved me wrong.

To the OP. I hope the back and forth has been helpful. This discussion is what you find in most Reef Central discussions, someone says something works or that they like it, someone else says it doesn't work, and pretty soon someone will say it crashed their tank. Who is right? Could be all of them, or none of them, or the truth probably lies somewhere in between. Good Luck.

No, you don't know what the water parameters would be if you didn't add the bacteria. I think the bacteria products basically have no effect. Yes, you and I both can tell we have working bacterial filtration, but I haven't seen any demonstrated advantage of spending money on bacterial additives. We both arrive at the same point, with or without them.

[bertoni]

You're making assertions of speed, etc, without any data to show that what you're saying is true. If you look around these forums, people report a wide variety of experiences with these products, and, all in all, they seem like a placebo to me.

[Glenfwb]

Assertions are opinions, and that is what the OP was asking for. I was not aware that we were presenting empirical data related to bacteria. Funny, you haven't presented any of that either, you simply point me to other peoples opinions. My opinion is based upon my experience.

Let me ask you a question, have you used the Dr. Tim's bacteria that I was commenting on? There are many bacterias that I wouldn't use either, I think they are a waste of money. That is why I specifically mentioned the brand I was referring too. Have you ever spoken to Dr. Tim? I have had some informative conversations with him at the last two MACNA's. Have you watched his videos that he has produced on the subject? If you want real data, from a guy who did his PHD on bacteria...check it out.

Are your opinions about these products based upon the "opinions" of others, or your personal experience? Your opinion that YOU think bacteria is a placebo is clear. The fact that bacteria has worked for me and others is also equally clear. Are you able to accept the fact that others can have success with a product, even if you haven't?

You're making assertions of speed, etc, without any data to show that what you're saying is true. If you look around these forums, people report a wide variety of experiences with these products, and, all in all, they seem like a placebo to me.

[bertoni]

I think we're going in circles. People can make up their own minds.

[twilmot]

When I got my first tank I followed a lot of advice from the LFS (I learned my lesson). The guy at the store said that if I added Bio-spira I could add fish that day! I was so excited I filled my 125 gallon tank up and loaded it with all the fish that I have been wanting. I did not lose one single fish, I think this was more then dumb luck than anything. Would I ever try this agian? Heck no! But it must have done something, because there was no loss and no large bloom. I would use it agian (I followed the ammount on the package). But not add so fast, I do not think their is a cure all to speed up the process, but I am sure it helped.

[Glenfwb]

Not sure which statement your yes is referring to. Are you saying yes, he is dishonest if he claims to have bacteria in a bottle?

I would say so yes, He claims he has bacteria in a bottle that cycles a tank then yes

[kv2wr1]

I think the bacteria in the bottle does cycle tanks faster, however if you have a sterile tank to begin with (dry rock and sand), it will take time for the bacteria to colonize in the rock and sand. This is what I have noticed with my 180g that was a totally sterile tank. I could add a clownfish after the cycle, but nothing more for quite some time as the bacteria needed to colonize in the rock and sand in order to support additional life. I think also the proteins in fish food, such as mysis shrimp, also help play a role as well with the bacteria. I don't have any scientific data to prove this, just my own personal experience with my tanks. I noticed that when cycling with bacteria in the bottle, the nitrites would spike and stay there for a long time (used liquid ammonia to start the cycle and this may have contributed to this). When I cyclyed my 40b that was sterile with table shrimp, the nitrite spike didn't stay high as long, but the cycle was 1 week longer. My 180g took about 2-3 weeks to cycle since the nitrite spike took some time to decrease whereas my 40b took exactly 4 weeks cycling with table shrimp. Both tanks where sterile from the get go.

[Kallabos]

This is day two of me using Instant Ocean BIO-Spira...

Not sure if its bad or good happening, bubbles are forming everywhere the green stuff is growing. Anyone seen this before after a day and half of pouring Ocean Bio in it? I notice when my Radions are on full power bubbles are popping everywhere alot more.

setup I have

75 Gallon Tank
Skimmer
Refugium with a few plants in it

Day 10 was just Ammonia no nitrates or nitrites, dumped the bottle in day and half later Ammonia dropped to zero.. Nitrites are well above 10 cant really tell how high they are.

Here are the pics, if you look real close you can see multiple tiny bubbles everywhere. Anyone seen this before after a day and half of pouring Ocean Bio in it?

http://s375.photobucket.com/user/Dan_Krohn/library/

Just making sure this is part of the cycle and nothing came off the refugium starter kit.

[amcvay1979]

I added 2 8oz bottles of dr tims to cycle my 150 with dry rock and dry sand. 3 days from start to finish and you could track the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate spikes and reductions. Best product I've ever used that works exactly as described.

[PrangeWay]

If I'm not using Zeovit on a system I normally using something from Microbe-Lift to help cycle, work on nitrates.

Mostly because the first half of my career I was on a waste water treatment plants design team, and I'd seen specs to order barrels of bacteria from their parent company for new plant setups. Now it is odd to think of your tank as sewage treatment, but that *is* whats going on.


PW

[tmz]

The problems for me regarding commercial bacterial concoctions are:

you don't know what you are getting; the actual contents are not disclosed; could just be decaying material without viable bacteria ; could be heterotrophic bacteria which take up ammonia but complete with nitrosommona( the ammonia oxidizers) which are key to the nitrification cycle.

they are unnecessary; plenty of ubiquitous bacteria exist in a tank seeded with a bit of live rock or substrate which will readily colonize a tank. A little patience works.

[bertoni]

The tank looks fine in the pictures. If anything, that's cleaner than most tanks I've seen.

[nmotz]

You don't know what the water parameters would be if you didn't add the bacteria. I think the bacteria products basically have no effect. Yes, you and I both can tell we have working bacterial filtration, but I haven't seen any demonstrated advantage of spending money on bacterial additives. We both arrive at the same point, with or without them.

If using LR only I would totally agree that there is probably no added benefit, but what about those who start with completely dry rock? I only ask because I'm on the fence about these kinds of things myself, but I do think it's important to be willing to try new things. Dr. Tim explained in one of his videos that many bacterial additives in the past were not the right strains of bacteria for an aquarium and were thus ineffective at cycling tanks. Through his research he was able to find those strains that are effective and these are what come in the bottle.

I don't know, maybe that's all garbage. I'm here to learn so I'm trying to listen to both sides.

[sowildpaul]

FYI, I am an ex-hobbyist but I still love the hobby that I no longer afford. BTW, about 27 years ago I had two 60 gal set-ups, reef (mini-reef used to be called at that time) and FOWLR. LFS recommended Fritz Zyme LNB so I bought it. It took about two weeks to complete the cycle.

Today Fritz offers Turbo Start just like a few competitors. Yes, they are very expensive. If you have no patience and can afford any of those products, don't let anybody stop you. Will it work? Yes, as long as there are places (such as live or dry rocks, or filter media like MarinePure Biofilter Media products) for LNB to settle down. Make sure that you get ones that are not expired so soon.

[scuzy]

it's going ot be a debate regardless. I know that i have used bio spira on 2 tanks i started and it didn't have a cycle once. i couldn't test for ammonia even after adding a shrimp to speed up the cycle.

[bertoni]

If using LR only I would totally agree that there is probably no added benefit, but what about those who start with completely dry rock?
That's an interesting question. In that case, adding bacteria could in theory speed the process a bit. If there's a lot of organic debris in the rock, though, I more skeptical about adding bacteria, because the process might end up being limited by the decay time for the debris, rather than waiting for bacteria to show up. I just don't know how well the bacteria in bottles survive in our tanks. People have reported successes and failures with the bacteria, as far as avoiding a cycle.

[nmotz]

I just don't know how well the bacteria in bottles survive in our tanks.

Yeah this gives me some trouble too. There's nothing that I know of to actually prove how well the bacteria is working other than the verbal testimonies of aquarists that have tried it. I'm not saying that's necessarily worthless, but I'd love to see some hard science, especially regarding how effective it is in cycling tanks that start with 100% dry rock.

[sowildpaul]

That's an interesting question. In that case, adding bacteria could in theory speed the process a bit. If there's a lot of organic debris in the rock, though, I more skeptical about adding bacteria, because the process might end up being limited by the decay time for the debris, rather than waiting for bacteria to show up. I just don't know how well the bacteria in bottles survive in our tanks. People have reported successes and failures with the bacteria, as far as avoiding a cycle.The bottles have expiration dates. It may be risky to order bottles from online retailers since you don't know the expiration dates. IMO, you have rights to ask before you buy because it's your money. If they don't know, then don't buy.

[Giovanni]

Bio-Spira has worked well for me on multiple occasions when setting up a QT/HT for new or sick fish. If you are not loading up your system with fish, one bottle designated for 75gallons should do fine.

[bertoni]

How do you know that it worked? I always wonder about that question. People set up tanks in a lot of ways, with varying results.

[Giovanni]

How do you know that it worked? I always wonder about that question. People set up tanks in a lot of ways, with varying results.


These tanks were newly setup with new filter media and no sand. They had PVC for the fish to hide in. I added a large number of fish to these newly set up tanks and never had an ammonia or nitrite spike.

[Jonesrd1]

How can a bacterium that has a 12-24 hour generation time cycle a 100g dry rock dry sand system instantly? I am referring to ammonium and nitrite oxidizers. Just a point to consider.

[Giovanni]

How can a bacterium that has a 12-24 hour generation time cycle a 100g dry rock dry sand system instantly? I am referring to ammonium and nitrite oxidizers. Just a point to consider.


As I am sure you know, in a newly established tank, ammonia and nitrite are not generated instantly.

Personally I have always used Bio-Spira proactively in new tanks with no ammonia or nitrite. I usually have several expensive fish in those QT tanks so I monitor ammonia daily while testing nitrites and nitrates every third day. After a period of time nitrates start showing up without significant levels of ammonia or nitrites developing. On my QT tanks I use clean HOB filters only, no rocks, no sand. Personally I have never tried this stuff reactively on a tank that had elevated ammonia or nitrite levels before application so I cannot speak to that situation.


On a couple of occasions, I have used it in newly established tanks with live sand and live rock yielding similar results. I cannot say for sure if the results were due to the Bio-Spira, live sand or live rock. I suspect it would be a combination of all.

It would be interesting to see the results of a controlled study related to its effectiveness as a reactive agent for reducing ammonia and nitrites.

[bertoni]

I'd like to see a controlled study, too. It'd be a lot of work, though.

[Jonesrd1]

I'd like to see a controlled study, too. It'd be a lot of work, though.

There have been a few MS theses written on the subject, but as soon as the work is completed the product changes or is discontinued. The ones I have reviewed show few if any products that contain viable nitrifying bacteria of any species.

[Giovanni]

There have been a few MS theses written on the subject, but as soon as the work is completed the product changes or is discontinued. The ones I have reviewed show few if any products that contain viable nitrifying bacteria of any species.

Can you give us access to those theses?

[Reefvet]

In the last 2 years of the 40+ that I've kept marine aquariums I started using Dr. Tims products. Every one has live up to it's claim.

How do I know ?

Cycled many a tank with dry rock using DT's one and only bacteria in 4 days. Added significant livestock and tracked water chemistry, seeing no additional cycling or ammonia.

I've consistently seen noticeable improvement in tanks by using DT's Eco Balance bacteria. Any lingering cyano dies off. Corals look healthier, color and growth improve.

I've seen old, poorly maintained tanks brought back to a healthy balance with the use of Waste-Away.

I tried the products on recommendation from my LFS. They use them on many of their maintenance accounts and have found them to be very effective.

I haven't tried any other brands so I can only speak from experience with Dr. Tim's.

[sowildpaul]

In the last 2 years of the 40+ that I've kept marine aquariums I started using Dr. Tims products. Every one has live up to it's claim.

How do I know ?

Cycled many a tank with dry rock using DT's one and only bacteria in 4 days. Added significant livestock and tracked water chemistry, seeing no additional cycling or ammonia.

I've consistently seen noticeable improvement in tanks by using DT's Eco Balance bacteria. Any lingering cyano dies off. Corals look healthier, color and growth improve.

I've seen old, poorly maintained tanks brought back to a healthy balance with the use of Waste-Away.

I tried the products on recommendation from my LFS. They use them on many of their maintenance accounts and have found them to be very effective.

I haven't tried any other brands so I can only speak from experience with Dr. Tim's.
That's good to know. I'd like to know whether you bought it online or from a LFS. If you ordered it online, did you know the expiration date before ordering? My point is that it's possible the online retailers send the ones that are expired very soon or already expired. That's a big concern.

[bertoni]

I've heard reviews both ways on the bacterial products. I can't tell whether they do anything or not. There are bad reviews and good reviews.

[Reefvet]

There are bad reviews and good reviews.

Undoubtedly true for every product in the hobby.

[Reefvet]

That's good to know. I'd like to know whether you bought it online or from a LFS. If you ordered it online, did you know the expiration date before ordering? My point is that it's possible the online retailers send the ones that are expired very soon or already expired. That's a big concern.

I bought in at my LFS and they told me that they turn over stock quickly enough that it never even comes close to the expiration date.

Though I haven't dealt with buying it online I would expect that they would manage their inventory so that you're getting a product that's well within the expiration date. It they don't that's not a vendor I'd want to buy from. In fact I would think all you have to do is ask them what kind of expiration date to expect on the product you're ordering. Even if you're ordering from a web site, call first and ask.

[scuzy]

I bought mine from Amazon and its worked every time

[sgallagher7]

This is a very good link on bacteria and bacterial supplements
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2497273

[Reefvet]

I bought mine from Amazon and its worked every time

Hard to dispute success.

I just cycled a new 40B, dry rock, NSW, DT's one and only. Roughly 20 tanks with no issue in the last 2 years now. :inlove:

[bertoni]

But how do you know that the bacteria did anything?

[Reefvet]

But how do you know that the bacteria did anything?

If they didn't how did my tank cycle ?

[sowildpaul]

But how do you know that the bacteria did anything?Without adding LNB and/or some rocks/filter media such as bioballs or Marinepure spheres transferred from an established tank, a cycle would take 4-6 weeks to complete in a new set-up, correct?

That's how they know LNB works when the cycle is completed in a short time (less than 4 weeks).

[Learn It]

I never went through a cycle using Bio-Spira in my 20g using base rock.

[bertoni]

If they didn't how did my tank cycle ?
Tanks get set up all the time and never show any ammonia. I did that several times myself.

[smatter]

I just dump in a bottle of kombucha.

[Giovanni]

Tanks get set up all the time and never show any ammonia. I did that several times myself.

I setup my first salt system 27 years ago. I have set up well over 100 systems since then. I have used sand, rock and bioballs from established systems. I have always had an ammonia spike during cycling. That is until I set up my first tank using BioSpira. I have never had an ammonia spike in the approximately 15 systems I have setup using BioSpira. YMMV

[Reefvet]

Tanks get set up all the time and never show any ammonia. I did that several times myself.

And your tanks cycled in 4 days with dry rock and no other source of bacteria ? You then added fish, inverts and corals and the tank supported them ?

You've been holding out on us Bertoni ! :eek1:

What's your secret ?

[bertoni]

I used live rock, but others have used dry rock. I don't think there is a secret. The bacteria that consume ammonia are widespread and show up rapidly. My guess is that the limiting factor is getting debris on the live rock to decay and be processed, which can be limited by a lot of things.

[NMSREEFER]

The way you know it works is you put an ammonia alert gague in the tank the day you add the fish and biospira. If you dose properly and add a light load of fish, you never see an ammonia spike. You never see high nitrite. You only see nitrate slowly rising just as if the tank had been running six months. There may be a day or two of cloudiness while the bacteria bloom and populate the tank. It will clear up on its own.

[bertoni]

I am not sure that actually proves that the BioSpira did anything. If you look around in various threads, you'll find people saying it worked perfectly, and people who say it didn't do anything. I am not sure how much such products actually help.

[Jonesrd1]

I used live rock, but others have used dry rock. I don't think there is a secret. The bacteria that consume ammonia are widespread and show up rapidly. My guess is that the limiting factor is getting debris on the live rock to decay and be processed, which can be limited by a lot of things.

I agree 100%. The trick is to get the correct nitrifiers and not some stand-ins from a bottle. LR guarantees this from the start.

[Reefvet]

I don't think there is a secret.

I was kidding ! :bounce3:

[Reefvet]

I am not sure that actually proves that the BioSpira did anything. If you look around in various threads, you'll find people saying it worked perfectly, and people who say it didn't do anything. I am not sure how much such products actually help.

OK, you've clearly established you don't understand or acknowledge that this method can work. Got it !

[Reefvet]

I agree 100%. The trick is to get the correct nitrifiers and not some stand-ins from a bottle. LR guarantees this from the start.

YUP! Commonly understood in the hobby for a couple of decades now.

[bertoni]

OK, you've clearly established you don't understand or acknowledge that this method can work. Got it !
And moving on to personal attacks is the end of the conversation.

[NMSREEFER]

I've never read a post where someone set up a new tank and properly dosed biospira and said it didn't work. I've seen posts of people starting a fish less cycle, getting a high concentration of ammonia, then trying to bring it down with biospira. That's not the way it's designed to work. It doesn't claim to work that way. It is designed to add simultaneous to adding fish so the bacteria populate at a proper rate to keep up with the load. I've started fresh and salt water tanks that way. My current 29 gallon biocube was started that way with no ammonia and no deaths due to cycle.

I would like to see a link to a thread where someone used biospira as instructed and it didn't work.

[ReefsandGeeks]

What's the point of adding Bio-spira or any other bottled bacteria if you're already cycled the tank? As stated countless times, it's hard to tell if it realy made a difference or not. I don't see a point when you can easily set up the tank with live rock, and let it cycle naturaly. Unless you want all dry to avoid any hitchikers, it seems silly to me. just my opinion. I'll save my money for other reef items or livestock instead. If it's tried and true, I see no harm other than your wallet though.

[smatter]

What's the point of adding Bio-spira or any other bottled bacteria if you're already cycled the tank? As stated countless times, it's hard to tell if it realy made a difference or not. I don't see a point when you can easily set up the tank with live rock, and let it cycle naturaly. Unless you want all dry to avoid any hitchikers, it seems silly to me. just my opinion. I'll save my money for other reef items or livestock instead. If it's tried and true, I see no harm other than your wallet though.

You answered your own question, it's all dry. The tank is sterile.

[bertoni]

There are a lot of brands of bacteria on the market, and I haven't kept track of reports of each product separately. Maybe BioSpira is better than the others. Maybe most of them actually help. I just don't know. Some controlled studies might be useful.

If I had the energy and time, I might set up a small quarantine-like system, and use it as a test case. It could be sterilized and then "cycled" repeatedly, probably enough times to make a statistically significant result. This test might prove that the bacteria in the bottle work well enough in a very sterile setting to help get ammonia processing bootstrapped. If the bacterial products fail in that environment, they clearly can't help with a more standard tank setup.

I think that experiment seems reasonable. Any thoughts?

[NMSREEFER]

Please post the results. I would agree that some and maybe most bacteria products don't work as expected or desired.

[Reefvet]

And moving on to personal attacks is the end of the conversation.

I apologize if you thought I was attaching your personally. That was not my point. I was merely commenting that your posts were redundant, but then that is your privilege.

[Reefvet]

What's the point of adding Bio-spira or any other bottled bacteria if you're already cycled the tank?

I think you'll find it's one of the foundations of many a good reef system. It's a fundamental of the ZEO system.

[bertoni]

Please post the results. I would agree that some and maybe most bacteria products don't work as expected or desired.
Well, I'm not sure I'll do it. One issue is lack of time. I'd need to do a lot of repetitions to get a valid result. I'd probably need to pick one product for a starting point. I probably should look into similar projects done in the past, as well. They have not been encouraging, but the products might have changed.

[Giovanni]

OK, OK.....You guys are killing me over here! LOL

If you guys want to see a study on BIO-Spira, I will do one. Here is a brief overview of my plan.

This study will be limited in scope to the Instant Ocean BIO-Spira product and its affects on ammonia cycling as it relates to newly established systems. I will not be testing for, or commenting on what is in the product. I am only interested in the affect it has on ammonia cycling. I hypothesize a decreased level and duration of detectable ammonia for those systems using BIO-Spira as compared those systems where BIO-Spira is not used.


I think setting up eight 5 gallon buckets will get it done properly. All will run at the same time. I will use sterile sponge filters and damsels or Mollies would do the trick. All would need to start with fresh mixed water and a new sponge filter. No live rock or other substrate will be used. I will mix several bottles of Instant Ocean BIO-Spira from different batches to help eliminate the possibility that one bottle has expired or did not receive sufficient concentrations of active product to be affective. I will use Hydro-Sponge Pro Filters and the API Ammonia test kit.

1 x No fish, no food, no biospira, NO sponge filter.
1x No fish, no food, no biospira, just the sponge filter.
1x No fish, no food, just biospira and a sponge filter.
1x no fish, will have food added same as the one with fish, biospira and filter.
2x fish, food, filter, NO biospira.
2x fish, food, filter and biospira.

I will let the buckets run for 8 weeks with no water chemistry intervention except to replace evaporated water with RO.

I will create a blog and log daily ammonia levels as will as other pertinent information. I will purchase new sponge filters and a new ammonia test kit. I will also test the ammonia test kit every three days with a positive control.

Anyone see something I missed? Anyone want to donate to help pay for the supplies? LOL

[malira]

An experiment is born.

This has been a very entertaining read.

[NMSREEFER]

Please post daily results. I expect the two fish without bio spira to die of ammonia poisoning within a week or so if fed 2-3 times daily.

You are being very thorough.

[hart24601]

What's the point of adding Bio-spira or any other bottled bacteria if you're already cycled the tank? As stated countless times, it's hard to tell if it realy made a difference or not. I don't see a point when you can easily set up the tank with live rock, and let it cycle naturaly. Unless you want all dry to avoid any hitchikers, it seems silly to me. just my opinion. I'll save my money for other reef items or livestock instead. If it's tried and true, I see no harm other than your wallet though.

Some bacteria do different things. It's possible to add bacillus type of cultures to consume the detritus, or at least help consume, they might just release enzymes that allow other bacteria to consume extra organic material. I suspect this product is something like that:

http://www.continuumdirect.com/Bacter-Clean-M.htmlhttp://www.continuumdirect.com/Bacter-Clean-M.html

The Fritz website has a few studies on its products that you can check out if anyone is really interested.

http://www.fritzaquatics.com/resources.phphttp://www.fritzaquatics.com/resources.php

Clearly no one needs to use these products, but they are "natural" bacteria if anyone really cares. I have found them useful in setting up a hospital tank on the fly to avoid ammonia toxicity when monitored with a seachem badge. I never had indications of ammonia when adding fritz tubo start to a hospital or QT system and if I don't use it there was a clear ammonia warning on the badges. This is just my observations of the past years.

[Giovanni]

It will be a couple weeks before I get started. I have to order supplies etc.... I will post back here when I get started and create a new thread.

[bertoni]

You would need to do some repetitions to make any statistically valid conclusions. I'd eliminate the fish, as well, since that's a variable input. Adding a set amount of fish food seems like a reasonable experiment, but I would want a scale to weigh the food.

[CStrickland]

I vote no fish too. Adding measures of ammonia would be easiest, but if you wanted the whole cycle maybe you could grind up some shrimp in a blender or chop really well and measure teaspoons if you don't have a scale.

I feel like this needs a drumroll "ladies and gentlemen, once and for all Giovani will settle the great snake oil debate of 2015 (and 2014, 2013... 1998...lol)!!!! :celeb1::celeb1:

[Giovanni]

First of all I am not going for a Masters or Doctorate degree. I am not trying to get published. I think that most will see the data I collect as being at best, only a little better than anecdotal. I am just doing a little experiment for fun. I am not sure this will end the great debate! LOL


As for fish or no fish. I believe there needs to be fish in one or two of the systems. Sure there is possibly some variability added. I believe what ever potential variability they may bring needs to be noted. I will have to think on this a little more.

As for just adding ammonia, I could easily set up another system and do that but I don't think that is common practice for many.

Repeatability I will leave to someone else to verify independently based on the material and methods I post. I am sure after doing this I will not want deal with repeating it. Also the area I have to work in is limited to 8 buckets at a time.

[Reefvet]

As for just adding ammonia, I could easily set up another system and do that but I don't think that is common practice for many.


It is a common practice in public aquariums.

[NMSREEFER]

Using no fish would render the test meaningless. The whole point is to set up a new tank and add fish immediately. The only way to really prove it can be done is to do it.

[Jonesrd1]

Is there a patent number on the Biospira? They claim it is patented and I would like to look it up. Thanks

[NMSREEFER]

Tetra owns the fresh water version. It is called tetra safe start.

[NMSREEFER]

Maybe try the U.S. Patent office website

[Jonesrd1]

Tetra owns the fresh water version. It is called tetra safe start.

Thanks, it makes sense now, it is patented in Europe (EP1282688) and licensed to Tetra. The patent is about PCR, primers and gene sequencing. The actual product could not be patented in the U.S. as it does not involve gene manipulation just identification. The patent does mention shelf life and refrigeration along with a 6 to 10 day time for the cycle to get going. The bucket experiment ought to be interesting.

[bertoni]

Using no fish would render the test meaningless. The whole point is to set up a new tank and add fish immediately. The only way to really prove it can be done is to do it.
I disagree completely. The question can be answered by testing whether ammonia consumption matches ammonia production, which doesn't require live animals. Live animals also are variable in their metabolism, and can bring bacteria with them. If you want to use animals, you'd better be prepared to do a lot more repetitions.

All this said, with a sample size of one, this experiment isn't going to prove anything.

[juscalmej]

When I was setting up my 55, I added a bottle of it. I also double checked my tank's ability to process ammonia by dosing it into the tank for a few days before adding my livestock.

[Giovanni]

I disagree completely. The question can be answered by testing whether ammonia consumption matches ammonia production, which doesn't require live animals. Live animals also are variable in their metabolism, and can bring bacteria with them. If you want to use animals, you'd better be prepared to do a lot more repetitions.

All this said, with a sample size of one, this experiment isn't going to prove anything.


Sample size is not one. Reread my post.

[Giovanni]

It is a common practice in public aquariums.


Maybe, but we are talking about hobbyist typical use of this product. Also I think it is important to use the product as directed.

[tmz]

Probably more useful if someone could examine the contents of a bacterial product in culture medium and do a microscopic identification. Anyone have that skill set

[Giovanni]

Probably more useful if someone could examine the contents of a bacterial product in culture medium and do a microscopic identification. Anyone have that skill set


I have a degree in Biology and have that skill set. However I do not have the equipment.

Would that actually answer the question we are asking? Does this product reduce the cycle time of a new system? Maybe there is some component of the product besides the bacteria that aids in cycling the system?

[tmz]

Maybe other components if any are harmful. Not knowing what's being dumped in to the organic soup of an aquarium is a problem for me; perhaps more of a worry than hitchhikers from light seeding with fertile material from a tank with a complete nitrogen cycle.

It would answer whether viable bacteria are in it and whether they are bacteria associated with the nitrogen cycle vs less opitmal types. Some culturing has already been done in the link cited in an current thread cited earlier in this discussion. Here it is again:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2497273

These are a couple of posts form it that are on point : 15, 16, 17,18, 19:

[Jonesrd1]

It would take months to culture the organisms from the product. The patent claims Nitrosospira, Nitrospira, and several others. The real question is not what is in it but rather how does it work so fast if it really does? The patent claims 6 to 10 days, the bottle claims you can add fish immediately. I suspect many of us have cycled tanks by throwing a couple of helpless damsel fish in and seeing if they live long enough to justify throwing in a more expensive fish. In central Illinois no one ever heard of LR, live sand or bottled bacteria. Rila was the seawater mix and the test kits were all for freshwater. My point is that there are a lot of ways to cycle a tank all work given time. My choice today is live rock, live sand and Instant Ocean. You may choose Bio-Spira, I would not.

[bertoni]

Sample size is not one. Reread my post.
I'm using the definition from statistics. The sample size for each population is one. You'd need repetitions of each experiment to say anything.

[Giovanni]

I'm using the definition from statistics. The sample size for each population is one. You'd need repetitions of each experiment to say anything.

Help me out here. I would think that 1 bucket with one fish would be one population and a second bucket with a second fish would be population number 2. It would be like conducting the experiment twice but at the same time. I know my controls are not being repeated but then again I am not working on a masters thesis and I did say this would be only a little better than anecdotal data.

If my efforts are not going to be appreciated, I see no point in sharing the results.

[bertoni]

The size of a population is the number of experiments that are identical. So in your setup, the two final bucket descriptions have a sample size of n=2, but all the others are n=1. n=2 isn't much different than n=1, so that doesn't help much, and the fish might be the least controlled part of the setup, which doesn't help, either, in my view. The buckets that I think are the most interesting are n=1.

[bertoni]

Oops, meant to add that I missed or forgot that you were replicating the fish buckets. I don't think n=2 makes a practical difference, though, in any case.

[tmz]

The patent claims Nitrosospira, Nitrospira, and several others.

Thanks for the information. Could you share the others identified?This from wikipedia outlines nitrifying bacteria characteristics:

Nitrifying bacteria that oxidize ammonia <sup id="cite_ref-p2_3-1" class="reference">[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrifying_bacteria#cite_note-p2-3)</sup><sup id="cite_ref-p3_9-0" class="reference">[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrifying_bacteria#cite_note-p3-9)</sup>

<table class="wikitable"> <tbody><tr> <th style="background: #ddffdd;">Genus</th> <th style="background: #ddffdd;">Phylogenetic group</th> <th style="background: #ddffdd;">DNA (mol% GC)</th> <th style="background: #ddffdd;">Habitats</th> <th style="background: #ddffdd;">Characteristics</th> </tr> <tr> <td>Nitrosomonas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrosomonas)</td> <td>Beta</td> <td>45-53</td> <td>Soil, Sewage, freshwater, Marine</td> <td>Gram-negative short to long rods, motile (polar flagella)or nonmotile; peripheral membrane systems</td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#EFEFEF"> <td>Nitrosococcus (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nitrosococcus&action=edit&redlink=1)</td> <td>Gamma</td> <td>49-50</td> <td>Freshwater, Marine</td> <td>Large cocci, motile, vesicular or peripheral membranes</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Nitrosospira (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nitrosospira&action=edit&redlink=1)</td> <td>Beta</td> <td>54</td> <td>Soil</td> <td>Spirals, motile (peritrichous flagella); no obvious membrane system</td> </tr> </tbody></table> Nitrifying bacteria that oxidize nitrite <sup id="cite_ref-p2_3-2" class="reference">[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrifying_bacteria#cite_note-p2-3)</sup><sup id="cite_ref-p3_9-1" class="reference">[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrifying_bacteria#cite_note-p3-9)</sup>

<table class="wikitable"> <tbody><tr> <th style="background: #ddffdd;">Genus</th> <th style="background: #ddffdd;">Phylogenetic group</th> <th style="background: #ddffdd;">DNA (mol% GC)</th> <th style="background: #ddffdd;">Habitats</th> <th style="background: #ddffdd;">Characteristics</th> </tr> <tr> <td>Nitrobacter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrobacter)</td> <td>Alpha</td> <td>59-62</td> <td>Soil, Freshwater, Marine</td> <td>Short rods, reproduce by budding, occasionally motile (single subterminal flagella) or non-motile; membrane system arranged as a polar cap</td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#EFEFEF"> <td>Nitrospina (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nitrospina&action=edit&redlink=1)</td> <td>Delta</td> <td>58</td> <td>Marine</td> <td>Long, slender rods, nonmotile, no obvious membrane system</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Nitrococcus (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nitrococcus&action=edit&redlink=1)</td> <td>Gamma</td> <td>61</td> <td>Marine</td> <td>Large Cocci, motile (one or two subterminal flagellum) membrane system randomly arranged in tubes</td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#EFEFEF"> <td>Nitrospira (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrospira)</td> <td>Nitrospirae</td> <td>50</td> <td>Marine, Soil</td> <td>Helical to vibroid-shaped cells; nonmotile; no internal membranes</td></tr></tbody></table>

I noted nitrosospira occur in soil and are not listed for marine habitats.

The Fritz product noted in an earlier post (#39) claims nitrosommonas and nitrobacter.

Some products seem to use heterotrophic bacteria not the chemoautotrophs noted above. These heterotrophs take ammonia directly and can wash out or out compete and limit the ammonia oxidizers.

[NMSREEFER]

I hope you will go ahead with the experiment and post the results. Just be aware some simply don't want to see it succeed. You might even simplify it further and just use 4 buckets- 2 with bio spira and two without. Or six buckets- 3 with and 3 without. In that way you are repeating the experiment three times albeit at the same time. You might also simulate actual tank load and feeding to get "real time" results rather than theoretical results. For example, in a 5 gallon bucket the normal fish load would be 2 gallons per inch of adult fish. So one 2.5" fish per bucket would be compatible with a new tank set up with maximum bio load.

Of course there are many variables in what people actually do, but your experiment will prove whether bio spira works. If the 3 fish without bio spira die of ammonia poisoning and the other three never see an ammonia spike you have proved that it works.

[tmz]

That's a terrible post, imo.

No need to kill fish or to impugn the intellectual integrity of others who have different opinions and experiences and levels of understanding . (Just be aware some simply don't want to see it succeed./ nonsense)

I would like to know more about what these products are and what they do and don't and whether which ones may be useful for what applications and whether they may cause other unintended issues.
If the "experiment" isn't structured it won't prove anything or yield useful information beyond what we already have in a variety of anecdotal reports with a variety of results .

If you have used it and have some experience to report that might be useful.

This is the chemistry forum; if the science and method is of no interest and dismissed as "theorectical" too difficult or biased , perhaps another forum would be more suitable for your interest.

Killing fish is not what good reef keeping is .

In that regard ,I would never follow the guidelines noted in the above post for overstocking an aquarium.

[bertoni]

Of course there are many variables in what people actually do, but your experiment will prove whether bio spira works. If the 3 fish without bio spira die of ammonia poisoning and the other three never see an ammonia spike you have proved that it works.
I don't think that's enough repetitions to prove much, personally. You could try to run some tests of statistical significance, but I don't think you'll get far.

[Giovanni]

Wow!!!

[Jonesrd1]

The patent claims Nitrosospira, Nitrospira, and several others.

Thanks for the information. Could you share the others identified?

I noted nitrosospira occur in soil and are not listed for marine habitats.

The Fritz product noted in an earlier post (#39) claims nitrosommonas and nitrobacter.

Some products seem to use heterotrophic bacteria not the chemoautotrophs noted above. These heterotrophs take ammonia directly and can wash out or out compete and limit the ammonia oxidizers.


Sure, they are: Nitrosomonas, Nitrosovibrio, and Nitrosococcus. Various species and several unnamed species. I have given only the genera.

The patent itself is quite humorous and if you want something to put you to sleep Google EP1282688.

I have read dozens of patent applications for the U.S. and as far as I know I hold the only valid patent for an aquarium product containing live AOB and NOB and it is no longer manufactured. Remember patents do not mean the product actually works. In addition cycling is much more than ammonium to nitrate, as for the nitrogen cycle it includes nitrate to dinitrogen and I would not even attempt carbon, sulfur, phosphorus or microbial community establishment. Buying this in a bottle, I think not. Get some live rock, live sand, add some ASW and give it some time to mature and then stock up slowly, this will give you a system that you can count on for years.

[Giovanni]

Sure, they are: Nitrosomonas, Nitrosovibrio, and Nitrosococcus. Various species and several unnamed species. I have given only the genera.

The patent itself is quite humorous and if you want something to put you to sleep Google EP1282688.

I have read dozens of patent applications for the U.S. and as far as I know I hold the only valid patent for an aquarium product containing live AOB and NOB and it is no longer manufactured. Remember patents do not mean the product actually works. In addition cycling is much more than ammonium to nitrate, as for the nitrogen cycle it includes nitrate to dinitrogen and I would not even attempt carbon, sulfur, phosphorus or microbial community establishment. Buying this in a bottle, I think not. Get some live rock, live sand, add some ASW and give it some time to mature and then stock up slowly, this will give you a system that you can count on for years.

Now I understand. :deadhorse:

[tmz]

Sure, they are: Nitrosomonas, Nitrosovibrio, and Nitrosococcus. Various species and several unnamed species. I have given only the genera.

The patent itself is quite humorous and if you want something to put you to sleep Google EP1282688.

I have read dozens of patent applications for the U.S. and as far as I know I hold the only valid patent for an aquarium product containing live AOB and NOB and it is no longer manufactured. Remember patents do not mean the product actually works. In addition cycling is much more than ammonium to nitrate, as for the nitrogen cycle it includes nitrate to dinitrogen and I would not even attempt carbon, sulfur, phosphorus or microbial community establishment. Buying this in a bottle, I think not. Get some live rock, live sand, add some ASW and give it some time to mature and then stock up slowly, this will give you a system that you can count on for years.

Thanks for the information.

[Reefvet]

Cycled another 40B for frags since this thread started. Dry rock and sand, water, Dr. T's one and only, his free ammonia. Even the heater and power head were new so no chance they carried anything in. Tank cycled in a week and I'm adding corals and fish today. Gotta love the stuff :bounce1:

If you have doubts one place to start your research is to simply try the product, IMO.

[tmz]

Now I understand. :deadhorse:

Poor horse :hmm5: :fish1:

[NMSREEFER]

I don't think that's enough repetitions to prove much, personally. You could try to run some tests of statistical significance, but I don't think you'll get far.


If I were a betting man I would bet you could do it 100 times with the same result at least 90% of the time, allowing for 10% of the fish to be sick to begin with.

If someone doesn't like this test, why not do a more scientific one that you will be satisfied with. In a court of law the proof that three lived and three died under the circumstances cited would be enough evidence for a verdict. When it comes to killing fish, doesn't science do that type of thing everyday with mice and other animals? I think if you had 100 buckets done each way and the biospira group all lived and the others all died some would say that's not enough evidence.

[Jonesrd1]

I can send you a experimental design involving 6 buckets and 18 fish. Do you have a source of SW adapted mollies or sheepshead minnows (Cyprinodon sp)? Both of these are EPA model fish. Could really use any fish but it is best to choose ones others have used. Remember the chance for a statistical tie is large in this type of experiment. Magic Numbers for this design are 6, 12, 24, and 48, buckets the in between numbers are just waisting effort.

[bertoni]

If I were a betting man I would bet you could do it 100 times with the same result at least 90% of the time, allowing for 10% of the fish to be sick to begin with....
A lack of statistical significance is still a lack of significance.

[Jonesrd1]

Will some one please define "cycle" for me. Does it mean more than NH4+ to NO2- to NO3-, which isn't even a half cycle, or is it the establishment of a semi-stable microbial community which can support the inhabitants of the tank? I agree that we can use ammonium to nitrate as a measure of partial cycling, but adding bottled nitrifiers only gives us the illusion of a "cycled" tank. IMO a better measure would be organic N (dead shrimp) to NH4+ to NO2- to NO3- to N2 measured as the absence or low levels of nitrate.

[tmz]

Ammonia to NO2- to NO3 and then to N2( commonly referred to as the nitrification and denitrification cycles) is still only part of the nitrogen story in most tanks.

For example ,there are : heterotrophic organisms assimilating nitrogen and using ammonia directly ,photosynthetic organisms taking up nitrogen in a variety of forms , a variety chemoautotrophic microbes using dissolved nitrogen and nitrogen fixing likely occurring via cyanobacteria and other diazotrphs .
IMO, establishing a natural balance in this complex dance in a reef tank can be adversely effected by adding non indigenous bacteria , particulary dominant species, even if they initially reduce ammonia. Then there are concerns about impurites.

So, my problems with commercial concoctions are: the contents are unknown ,cosequently their overall effects are unknowable; the viability is unknown; and they are unnecessary.

[Giovanni]

I can send you a experimental design involving 6 buckets and 18 fish. Do you have a source of SW adapted mollies or sheepshead minnows (Cyprinodon sp)? Both of these are EPA model fish. Could really use any fish but it is best to choose ones others have used. Remember the chance for a statistical tie is large in this type of experiment. Magic Numbers for this design are 6, 12, 24, and 48, buckets the in between numbers are just waisting effort.

I do have a source for the mollies. Please send me your design.

[bertoni]

Will some one please define "cycle" for me. Does it mean more than NH4+ to NO2- to NO3-, which isn't even a half cycle, or is it the establishment of a semi-stable microbial community which can support the inhabitants of the tank? I agree that we can use ammonium to nitrate as a measure of partial cycling, but adding bottled nitrifiers only gives us the illusion of a "cycled" tank. IMO a better measure would be organic N (dead shrimp) to NH4+ to NO2- to NO3- to N2 measured as the absence or low levels of nitrate.
There is no particularly useful definition of cycle that people will accept. I use the term to refer to the period between setting up a tank, and the completion of the better part of the decay of any organic debris, or the time required to have a working ammonia filter, whichever is greater. So then the question becomes, what is a working ammonia filter. I think a week of stable zero reading for ammonia is close enough for most tank setups. For a setup that never shows an ammonia spike, adding a bit of fish food every day for a few days is a reasonable test.

I agree that dead shrimp or fish food would be a better test.

[Jonesrd1]

Jonathan, I agree with your definition as one that serves most FOWLRs. Folks with large tanks with expensive inhabitants and SPS should be a little more discerning and avoid bottled miracles.

[CStrickland]

expensive inhabitants and SPS

I'm not sure these would be a good idea in a tank that's still cycling by either definition. Personally I'd wait for a good population of benthos and a few months of stable parameters before I got into anything too picky. Some people call getting through those longer cycles and past the algae blooms "maturity." I think using dry rock and bottled bac might get you there slower than starting with live rock, but at least you can watch a clown fish swim around while you're waiting.

[tmz]

I agree living things including fish should not be placed in a tank producing toxic levels of ammonia, a detectable level on hobby grade kits. More delicate organisms need an even more settled and stable environment beyond low ammonia.

The environment and biology of an aquaruium can be altered by adding non indigenous unknown elements and organisms and those effects may a persist ; which is a factor to consider before adding commercial concoctions without knowledge of their contents.

The time it takes for ammonia oxidizing bacteria to colonize can be used to complete a quarantine for new fish .

[Giovanni]

So does anyone agree that these product can be useful in rapid cycling a QT or HT tank?

[tmz]

Maybe/maybe not.
I use the tank transfer method for quarantine ,so ammonia is not a concern for me with a 3 day stay per tank an a little detoxifier on hand if needed.

A little seeded substrate in a bag or bowl or some seeded filter media get's ammonia oxidation going quickly in a qt tank used for a longer observation period.

[Giovanni]

You did not answer the question.

There are many diseases that TT does not take care of.

[tmz]

I did answer the question. It's a maybe.
I don't know if a particular product will or won't accelerate ammonia detoxification in a significant or insignificant way or if it would interfere with medications. Maybe it will ; maybe it won't. I don't use them .The anecdotal reports vary.

I've tried a few over the years in qt tanks ;can't recall which products but never really found them useful ;never did a structured experiment.It's been a long time though . Maybe some of the newer products would be more reliable for quick ammonia reduction; maybe not. I don't have a need for them in any case.


That's true ;tank transfer is only an effective med free preventative treatment for marine ich , crytocaryon irritans , the most prevalent tank killer. It also provides an opportunity for drip free acclimation avoiding potential ammonia toxicity in bag water.
After tank transfer, fish go into an observation tank for a longer period; sometimes treated with prazipro and/ or other meds as needed. That tank has 12 days to establish ammonia oxidation colonies during the tank transfer period and can be much faster when aided with some seeded material.

[bertoni]

So does anyone agree that these product can be useful in rapid cycling a QT or HT tank?
I think that might be a possibility. That would be the optimal case for their use. That's a fairly sterile environment with little exposure to marine conditions. If these products actually worked for setting up a QT or hospital tank, that'd be useful and worth knowing.

[hart24601]

I use them when setting up hospital tanks and QT tanks FWIW. Last year I set up a hospital tank to treat for flukes (no treatment DT as I have lots of dusters) and I forgot to add any turbo start. The LFS here sells it by the teaspoon out of his fridge. The seachem badge started to turn colors so I added the bacteria and very quickly the badge went down to the "safe" color and it never went up again for the duration of the HT treatment. I also keep marine pure blocks for use in HT tanks - dry not seeded, for use with the bacterial products. Definitive proof? Nope! Of course it could be pure coincidence but it was a pretty striking observation to me.

[Reefvet]

So does anyone agree that these product can be useful in rapid cycling a QT or HT tank?

Yes! :fish1::fish2: