Sick fish - frustrated newbie

[Tandy99]

I have 3 yellow tailed damsels that have a strange discoloration on their foreheads (photo attached). They've had it for a couple of months now and it doesn't seem to affect them and isn't getting worse. I have a 55 gallon tank that has been setup for about about 3 months. I used live rock to setup and do all of the routine cleaning and water testing. I have an Eheim canister filter and protein skimmer. All tank chemistry is good and water is clear. I also have some various snails and hermit crabs. I have tried to add fish on several occasions (7 total) and they all just turn pale and die within a few days or weeks. Has anyone seen this damsel disorder or have any ideas of what's going on? I suppose it's a tribute to the damsel fish toughness but I'd like to be able to add some other fish at some point :-)

-Thanks

[Mrscribbled]

Tough to tell from the photo, but looks like HLLE. Honestly I didn't think damsels could develop this. Were they used to cycle a tank, and exposed to poor water quality?

[Tandy99]

Yes, I guess they were sort of used to cycle the tank since I put them in only a month after start-up. It just seems odd to me that they're not showing any signs of sickness (other than the discoloration) and all of my new fish croak almost right away. Do you think I should medicate the tank in general? I had someone else tell me it could be a vitamin deficiency. Here's a pic of my almost dead puffer fish. I doubt he makes it through the night :-(

[Newsmyrna80]

What is your ammonia and nitrate?

[Saltydrip]

Are you using RODI? If you are using tap water it might be the cause.

[DasCamel]

Give us more info on your methods and setup.

[vitz]

skin flukes is my bet.

i've seen this 1000's of times on various species-particularly dwarf angels, after a prolonged bout of skin flukes left untreated. even if the fish recovers through appropriate treatment/fighting it off by the fish itself, the scars/tissue damage will likely remain.

that isn't discoloration-you're seeing the actual flesh of the fish that's exposed as a result of the scales/skin/epithelium being eaten away, leaving the actual 'meat' of the fish open to the water, and your vision.

it's one of things that gets diagnosed as 'hlle'-which is really a 'catch all' term used to describe a *symptom* of an underlying cause/issue. 'hlle' in and of itself is *not* a disease-it's the result of (possible multiple) something else(s).

'acne' in people is somewhat analogous-it's the result of many possible causes that leads to the acne-'acne' is a term to describe the result of the causes-which could be anything from an allergic food reaction, to hormone induced overproduction of skin oils, to plain old bad hygiene, resulting in an infection of the skin/pores, which can leave a permanent scar.

ime-the permanence of the scar on fish is a function of how deep the tissue damage is. once it reaches the extent shown in your pic, it's permanent-or will take a VERY long time to heal over-but will never get back to the original state it was prior to the damage.

it's NOT a 'vitamin deficiency' , lol. any commercially available sw food will be able to provide a dam w/everything it needs.

if all of your new fish keep dying-there's definitely something else going on w/ your system/water-which may or may not be related to what's happening to the damsel.

hth

edit: based on the puffer pic-i'll definitely state you have an issue w/skin flukes of some sort-both fish are showing classic visual presentation of a severe fluke infestation. i'd start fw dips immediately-though given the weakened state of the fish, they may not be able to handle the stress.it's your call to make.

[Tandy99]

Wow! Everyone is so nice and willing to help in this forum. Thank you all for your replies. I've had freshwater tanks before but totally new to saltwater.

Well, as expected, the puffer fish died last night so I am now down to the 3 damsels once again. I did a 30% water change yesterday after taking him out so my ammonia and nitrates are now low.

I'm not sure what RODI water is? Yes, I have been using tap water. I am on a well. I was using a water conditioner that I picked up at PETCO but I've have another LFS tell me that stuff can cause more problems than do good so I didn't put it in with this water change. I had noticed previously that there seemed to be a oily like film on top of the water. Since the water change yesterday, I'm not seeing it anymore but that could also be because of the new water, I suppose.

I took the time this time to mix up my water in a large tote and then let it sit overnight with a pump and heater in it. Then I used the powerhead to pump the new water into the aquarium.

If using tap water is bad, where do I get better water? and what should I be using?

What kind of information are you looking for on my methods and setup? I used live rock and ran the tank for about 4 weeks before adding the yellow tail damsels. I've been doing 10% water changes weekly and monthly filter cleanings but never any closer together than 5 days apart. I have the Ehiem canister filter and a protein skimmer that run constantly. I test weekly and have never had high levels of anything other than nitrates which has been as high as 35 at one point. Then I did a 20% water change and it came down to tolerable levels. I took a water sample into the LFS to see if they got any different readings and the only thing they were even slightly concerned about was my nitrates were at 20 but they said that shouldn't be killing the fish off like they are (other than the damsels, of course, which appear to be indestructible). So it seems to me that something else has to be going on and I'm just not sure what to do. The LFS suggested being patient and letting the tank run for a few more months without adding any fish and while keeping up on routine maintenance/cleaning and water changes.

[vitz]

Wow! Everyone is so nice and willing to help in this forum. Thank you all for your replies. I've had freshwater tanks before but totally new to saltwater.

Well, as expected, the puffer fish died last night so I am now down to the 3 damsels once again. I did a 30% water change yesterday after taking him out so my ammonia and nitrates are now low.

I'm not sure what RODI water is? Yes, I have been using tap water. I am on a well. I was using a water conditioner that I picked up at PETCO but I've have another LFS tell me that stuff can cause more problems than do good so I didn't put it in with this water change. I had noticed previously that there seemed to be a oily like film on top of the water. Since the water change yesterday, I'm not seeing it anymore but that could also be because of the new water, I suppose.

I took the time this time to mix up my water in a large tote and then let it sit overnight with a pump and heater in it. Then I used the powerhead to pump the new water into the aquarium.

If using tap water is bad, where do I get better water? and what should I be using?

What kind of information are you looking for on my methods and setup? I used live rock and ran the tank for about 4 weeks before adding the yellow tail damsels. I've been doing 10% water changes weekly and monthly filter cleanings but never any closer together than 5 days apart. I have the Ehiem canister filter and a protein skimmer that run constantly. I test weekly and have never had high levels of anything other than nitrates which has been as high as 35 at one point. Then I did a 20% water change and it came down to tolerable levels. I took a water sample into the LFS to see if they got any different readings and the only thing they were even slightly concerned about was my nitrates were at 20 but they said that shouldn't be killing the fish off like they are (other than the damsels, of course, which appear to be indestructible). So it seems to me that something else has to be going on and I'm just not sure what to do. The LFS suggested being patient and letting the tank run for a few more months without adding any fish and while keeping up on routine maintenance/cleaning and water changes.

first off-NO MORE FISH! heh. at least not until you do the following:

get an rodi and use it-tap water generally has no place in the sw hobby-especially since the water is the most fundamentally important thing your tank's inhabitants are dependent upon for their health and quality of life.

here's where your parameter's should be:

s.g.=1.025 (use a refractometer that has temp compensation, NOT a hydrometer)

ammonia=0
nitrite=0
nitrate=<5, no higher than 10, for fish only, 0-2 tops for a new reef tank
po4=<.02

Ca=400-450
Mg=1350 +/_
alk 8-9.5 dKh

get there and alot of your issues should go away-these things take time. you might have approached stocking the tank too quickly.

and NEVER listen to a petco, or 99% of lfs's, for advice-most don't know squat.

20ppm nitrates can indeed stress some fish

and use good high quality test kits-i'd recommend salifert, hach or lamotte.

that should get you off to a decent start :)

g'luck :)

[Tandy99]

Thanks and, yea, I gotcha on the no more fish! Tired of wasting money. I do use a refractometer and my salinity is 1.024 +/-. The test kit I use is in a black box and says "Red Sea" on it. They said it was the same one they use in the store and cost around $50. What would you recommend for a RODI filter?

I know you said not to listen to the LFS but they did say that since it was a fish only tank that I didn't need to worry about calcium or magnesium levels - another lie??

[vitz]

Thanks and, yea, I gotcha on the no more fish! Tired of wasting money. I do use a refractometer and my salinity is 1.024 +/-. The test kit I use is in a black box and says "Red Sea" on it. They said it was the same one they use in the store and cost around $50. What would you recommend for a RODI filter?

I know you said not to listen to the LFS but they did say that since it was a fish only tank that I didn't need to worry about calcium or magnesium levels - another lie??

it's not AS critical for 'fish only', but if you have live rock, your tank isn't 'fish only'. the idea behind all of the parameters and values listed is to replicate (within reason) the same parameters as natural sea water, which is also where the fish come from. they also have a relationship w/ proper water chemistry-alkalinity, ph, and calcium will most likely affect their bone health/development, etc ;)

there's no reason to NOT try to replicate the natural environment where any animal we keep comes from, to maximize our rate of success in that animal's husbandry :)

i'd also make sure you clean the canister regularly-your live rock is your preferred bio filter-the canister should be getting used as an auxiliary mechanical/chemical (read: carbon, phosphate) filter only-and all mechanical media, regardless of where it's located, should be cleaned often,(every 1-2 weeks), as all decaying matter pollutes, regardless of where it's found in the system.

redsea is an ok kit, and tends to be as accurate as salifert-just stay away from api ;)

re: rodi-any 4 stage (sediment,carbon,ro,di) will do-the selection is more about the gpd rate-i generally recommend getting one that can make at least 50% of your tank's volume in 24 hours or less (in case you need to prep an emergency batch of water for a poisoning event, for example)-so if you have a 100 gal tank, get at least a 50 gpd unit. spectrapure, kent, airwaterice, etc etc and that 'league' of rodi's will be fine-there's dozens of companies-they're all built the same from the same components, made in the same factories-the main diff is the company label they slap on when they put their units together-not unlike stereo components (the electronics are all built in pretty much the same factories-an onkyo transistor is built by the same factory as a sony, kenwood, transistor, etc (more or less), the diff is more in the 'shell' w/the diff company's name, heh).

you should also do some reading on cycling (the nitrogen cycle). imo, you were trying to stock the tank too quickly, w/out regard to how the cycle works/progresses. it's far better to cycle a tank w/OUT fish-that way they don't get stressed/damaged from the usually occurring buildup of ammonia/nitrite during the initial cycle. and never introduce any critter, fish or invert, if there's ANY reading for ammonia/nitrite, and less than 5-10 ppm nitrate, while starting out/learning the hobby.

hth

[Tandy99]

So it sounds like I should do a 20% water change every other week with the RODI filter and maybe clean the canister filter on alternate weeks. Does that sound about right?

[Tandy99]

Also, one other question...when I do get to the point of being able to add new fish, should I get them at a LFS or order them online?

[vitz]

water changes are an issue of personal philosophy, to a large extent. i'm an advocate of LARGE (50%and greater) wc's. some folks do smaller ones. as long as the new batch water is corrected and properly aged PRIOR to it's use, it won't produce any stress on the system, when doing a large wc.

re: adding fish-that's dependent on the system, and when your chemistry is up to snuff. i'd strongly advise adding no more than ONE fish at a time, w/ at least a month between each addition-this will accomplish 2 things; it will allow your bacterial colonies to reproduce to match the new level of waste the new fish represents, and it'll give you enough time to see if you still have a problem before adding another-so if there IS still an issue, you'll lose 1, not 2, fish :)

[Tandy99]

So when I do buy fish, should I go to a LFS or buy online?

Also, I've noticed that when I do a water change, large or small, my nitrates go down substantially for the first day and are very quickly back up over 20 ppm. Is that normal?

[vitz]

if you were doing wc's w/tap water, and/or your tank was still cycling, it could be 'normal'-though there really isn't such a thing-all tanks cycle abit differently, and there's really too many possible variables involved in any system's developments for me to be comfortable w/calling anything 'normal'.

what it means (the fall and rise of the nitrate you're observing w/ the wc's) is that (assuming the tests are accurate) that there's a good (read: substantial)amount of nitrate being produced-there should be a difference in the initial dilution you observe based on the amount you change-a 10% wc doesn't reduce the amount of nitrate at the same amount as a 25%, etc. the diff should be measurable on a test kit (if it's a good kit).

it takes MUCH longer for nitrate consuming bacteria to develop (usually) than it does for the ammonia and nitrite consuming bacteria. you could also be overfeeding. remember, adding ammonia in any form (fish's initial waste product, too much food) is the same, ultimately, as adding nitrate-as the former is turned into/metabolized into the latter.

just out of curiosity-do you use any type of glass cleaner on the outside of the tank?

[Tandy99]

Yes. I clean the outside of the tank glass with windex. I didn't think that would have any affect on the inside of the tank though.

[vitz]

Yes. I clean the outside of the tank glass with windex. I didn't think that would have any affect on the inside of the tank though.

that's a BIG NO-NO

NEVER use an ammonia based cleaner ANYWHERE NEAR AN AQUARIUM!

you create a cloud of ammonia gas, that then gets absorbed directly into the tank via the air/water interface (read: water surface) of the tank.

this is most likely a major source of all of your issues!

use water and vinegar-it's just as effective. even a piece of crumpled up newspaper will do just fine (the oils in the newsprint will also coat the glass and help prevent future streaking).

imo-you have 2 major (possibly other minor) issues now going on-a fluke issue (possibly) and an ammonia poisoning issue.

stop w/ any household cleaners near the tank, get an rodi, and i'll lay odds of 10000% most of your issues will go away w/in a coupla weeks! :D

hth

[Tandy99]

Really?! I have a glass top on the top of the tank and only spray the front. I suppose it's possible that some microscopic particles could float in the air but it seems hard to believe that it's poisoning the tank and my ammonia levels have never been high. I could understand it if the top were open but that's not the case. Nonetheless, I will heed your advice and not do it anymore and use the water and vinegar. Thanks for your input. You're clearly knowledgable about the topic. I have my RO filter coming and will try that out as well. Hopefully, things will get better in a few weeks. Still not sure if I should buy new fish from a LFS or online though (when I do decide to add fish). Opinion on that?

[vitz]

Really?! I have a glass top on the top of the tank and only spray the front. I suppose it's possible that some microscopic particles could float in the air but it seems hard to believe that it's poisoning the tank and my ammonia levels have never been high. I could understand it if the top were open but that's not the case. Nonetheless, I will heed your advice and not do it anymore and use the water and vinegar. Thanks for your input. You're clearly knowledgable about the topic. I have my RO filter coming and will try that out as well. Hopefully, things will get better in a few weeks. Still not sure if I should buy new fish from a LFS or online though (when I do decide to add fish). Opinion on that?

regardless of a canopy, if it's in the air, it's in the tank. period. it has nothing to do with particles. it's about the ammonia GAS. water is quite absorptive,'wants' to maintain an equilibrium with what's in the air around it, and will easily 'soak up' the resulting ammonia vapor that clouds around the tank - and a glass cover is far from being a hermetic seal, heh.

anyone who smokes near a tank, has fish that smoke. you shouldn't even be spraying air fresheners or insecticides in the same room!

i've never seen your lfs, or the condition of their fish-so i can't really say. generally, i don't like to buy livestock sight unseen- i always prefer to not only see the animal, but also the environment in which it's kept (tank/system conditions, the other livestock, etc etc).

having said that, liveaquaria from f&s seems to have a decent track record, based on what i've seen heard from other's experiences-but ymmv ;)

hth

[Tandy99]

Thanks for all the advice. What should the vinegar to water ratio be?

[vitz]

anything from 0 to 99%-i'm not aware of any magic number-the only purpose of the vinegar is to cut through/dissolve any calcium/mineral stains/deposits-if you don't have that, regular water will do. when working at lfs's i just used plain water, MAYBE a cup of vinegar to a 5 gal bucket, and a squeegee.-works just as well as ammonia :)

edit: back in the 70's when working at my 1st lfs we'd just use newspaper and abit of elbow grease, heh.