View Full Version : Microscope ID in Indianapolis
iReefer2
01/22/2014, 09:41 AM
I have notice 1 or 2 white spots on a blue tang, I would like to perform a fish scrape and have it looked at under a microscope to confirm if it is Ich or if it is something else or nothing.
I was going to wait until the white spots show again and then do the scrape.
Just wondered if anyone in the Indy area had a microscope and could check this for a fee? Or if anyone knows a retailer that can do this?
Thanks
Newsmyrna80
01/22/2014, 10:03 AM
I bought mine online...Amazon and had it the next day. For less than $100 it's worth it. I have used mine so much that it has more than paid for itself. Between guessing which disease, so which med to use, to perhaps the fish dying from misdiagnosing you could spend more than $100.
iReefer2
01/22/2014, 10:05 AM
That's good to know, can you tell me which model. I had no idea they were that cheap tbh, and was kinda more worried I wouldn't know what I was looking at
Newsmyrna80
01/23/2014, 09:07 AM
This is the one I bought
http://www.amazon.com/Celestron-LCD-Deluxe-Digital-Microscope/dp/B00369V2E0/ref=sr_1_41?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1390489376&sr=1-41&keywords=microscope
There are a lot to chose from. I saw one for $40.
For identification there are lots of options. I usually look it up in a aquaculture parasitologist book. But you can look online or send it to Bob Fenner at WWM. He is very good at identifying slides.
MrTuskfish
01/23/2014, 12:48 PM
I'm a complete idiot when it comes to most things scientific, but here's a question that may sound pretty dumb. Because the actual ich parasite is buried well beyond the visible white spot, how will a microscope exam of a scraping ID ich? I always consider the white spots to just be a sign of the parasite, not the parasite itself. Just curious, not critical. FWIW; I think ich is very easy to ID, once you've seen it a few times.
HumbleFish
01/23/2014, 12:54 PM
I'm a complete idiot when it comes to most things scientific, but here's a question that may sound pretty dumb. Because the actual ich parasite is buried well beyond the visible white spot, how will a microscope exam of a scraping ID ich? I always consider the white spots to just be a sign of the parasite, not the parasite itself. Just curious, not critical. FWIW; I think ich is very easy to ID, once you've seen it a few times.
I've wondered this myself. I think it would be best to take a culture sample from the gills. But how do you do this without harming the fish? Sedative?
Newsmyrna80
01/23/2014, 03:13 PM
I've wondered this myself. I think it would be best to take a culture sample from the gills. But how do you do this without harming the fish? Sedative?
Gill scrapes/clips should only be done by those with a lot of experience. Whenever I take my fish in to the marine biologist at our science center he always tells me "no guarantees the fish will make it". But by the time I'm at that point of desperation. He doesn't use sedatives but it is recommended to do so.
I have not done a skin scrape for ich, only for flukes and brook. But, and I'm just thinking out loud, the parasite has to attack the fish from the upper layers of epithelial to get to the subderma so maybe, and it's a big maybe, if you caught one in the process of "digging" its' way down? Again, just a guess cuz I'm not an ich expert:D
iReefer2
01/23/2014, 06:17 PM
Yeah, the reason I ask is I can't ID these white spots as ich, there is only maybe 3 spots and more towards the back of the body of my blue, and only on one side, and from images Ive seen of ich on fish it looks, ich looks like there are white specks dusted all over the fish, on my blue tang there's only a few, and the white spots are much bigger I would say from images I've seen ich looks like a grain of salt, whereas these look like a white pin head in size. From doing a lot more reading today and a picture of a blue tang with this virus it looks to me that it's lymphocystis virus, and that would make sense as it's only my blue tang that has shown these white dots, and none of the fish, even the blue tang show any signs of illness, eating and behaving normal.
The only thing that bothers me is these white dots only appear for about 24-48 hours, and I've heard lymphocystis takes months to heal? And the fact they reappear around a month later, which points more towards ich, that's why I was going to do a scrape to know for sure. I'm also tracking these white dots now, mark down the day I see them and the day they disappear and see if I can look for a pattern, that could help me compare with the life cycle of ich and might be another ID form.
Any input would be helpful, could lymph heal this quickly and then come back every now and again? Could this be ich and the white spots are just irregularly much bigger?
Love to hear from the experts
Newsmyrna80
01/23/2014, 07:30 PM
IME lympho does not heal within a day or two. How long have you noticed the spots?
iReefer2
01/23/2014, 07:47 PM
They come and go, I will notice them, then the next day they are much less obvious then the next day totally gone. Probably been on and off for 3 months.
Everything points to ich, it has to be, right?
No loss of life so far though, so think I may buy a Rubbermaid holding tank, and start it up, get it cycled, and then transfer all the fish out to treat and leave the display tank fallow. What a ball ache!
Problem is I have gobies, 4 of them, I will likely have to drain the tank entirely to get them, I just not sure how to do this, as I will need to empty the tank into a container so to refill quickly and not damage the corals, I have a spare 2000gph pump so I can empty and refill fairly quickly, but not sure where to put the water? Any ideas, anything I can rent that will hold the water? Or something that is cheap and I can throw away after? I just don't want to have to buy 3 100gallon rubbermaids, 1 for the holding, and 2 to store the 180 gallons while I remove the fish.
Newsmyrna80
01/24/2014, 08:00 AM
I'm not so sure it is ich. Crypto in trophont stage is 3-7 days. Are there any other symptoms? Flashing, scratching, gilling, lethargy? Also ich tends to be more wide spread on a fish and usually you will see spots on their fins. Can you get a pic?
iReefer2
01/24/2014, 09:31 AM
That's what I thought also re: trophont stage, and would have thought by now that it would have bloomed and I would have had a major widespread outbreak across everyone in the tank.
No other symptoms, no flashing that I've seen, fish look healthy to me.
Here is a pic of a group of fish, it doesn't show the white spots, next time I see it, which could be a while, I will take a pic.
Really appreciate hearing from you on this, it's been so confusing to me what it could be, and I want to do what's right but don't want to tear everything apart risk more problems if I don't need to.
I did also see about a week ago, bristle worm hairs on her side, can't recall if it was in same location as these bumps, but she sleeps in a really awkward position inside a rock crevice, on her side kind of wedge between 2 rocks, like I said, looks very awkward, and think she must have touched a bristle worm in there and that's when she got the bristle worm hairs.
I doubt this is related, but just thought of it, in case it's relevant.
iReefer2
01/24/2014, 09:33 AM
Another of the blue tang, no white spots in this pic
Newsmyrna80
01/24/2014, 04:17 PM
I wouldn't do anything just yet. I would just watch for a little while. I know this is going to sound silly but is it possible that it's sand?
iReefer2
01/24/2014, 07:18 PM
I'll try to get a picture. I'm pretty sure it's not sand, the next day when it's disappeared I always think, "man was I just seeing sand!" But I'm pretty sure it's not sand.
iReefer2
01/30/2014, 10:43 AM
One white spot showed up today. I tried to get some pics, but IPhone pics, so not sure if there's a lot to go on.
My logs show that the last time this showed up was the 16th, was gone from the blue tang on morning of 18th.
It's now the 30th, so does that point to any type of disease?
To note there is a large RBTA very close to here cave were she sleeps, could this be a anemone sting by any chance?
iReefer2
01/30/2014, 10:44 AM
Picture 2
iReefer2
01/30/2014, 10:44 AM
Picture 3
iReefer2
01/30/2014, 10:45 AM
Picture 4.
iReefer2
01/30/2014, 10:47 AM
To note, the only mark on her is the one in the red circle, any other white marks are either buildup on the glass or particles floating in the water column. The nodule I've pointed out is fairly large, and is white in color. But to me seems much larger than ICH that I have seen in fish in online pictures. And there is only 1 nodule.
Newsmyrna80
01/30/2014, 02:49 PM
I don't think it's ich. Typically ich is prevalent on the fins as well. If the fish is not scratching, breathing and eating ok I wouldn't do anything just yet. Just observe but be prepared to act if anything changes.
Deinonych
01/30/2014, 03:33 PM
I don't think it's ich. Typically ich is prevalent on the fins as well. If the fish is not scratching, breathing and eating ok I wouldn't do anything just yet. Just observe but be prepared to act if anything changes.
+1
Sometimes (not always), it's best to do nothing and observe for a period to make sure you know what you are dealing with. If it is crypto, there is time to treat before the fish's life is in jeopardy. It's not a quick killer like velvet.
iReefer2
01/30/2014, 08:49 PM
Thanks for your input guys.
I'll keep an eye on it.
From your experience, is there anything else it could be? Any disease that these symptoms are similar to? I have neon gobies, so could this be lymphocystis and they are keeping it at bay?
Newsmyrna80
01/31/2014, 06:51 AM
Based on the timeline, no. Lympho looks more like tufts of cotton and I don't believe gobies eat lympho.
iReefer2
01/31/2014, 07:56 PM
Just noticed 2 more white spots, same size as before, just above the pelvic fin, same side as the others.
So confused.
The spots IMO look too big to be ich, and the timeline doesn't make sense right? If I saw the white spots last on January 18th, then they disappeared, how can they be back now just 13 days later, less if you can't the one spot I saw yesterday.
Still no other signs that I'm aware of, I'm just gonna keep observing at this time I think.
Deinonych
01/31/2014, 08:53 PM
Just noticed 2 more white spots, same size as before, just above the pelvic fin, same side as the others.
So confused.
The spots IMO look too big to be ich, and the timeline doesn't make sense right? If I saw the white spots last on January 18th, then they disappeared, how can they be back now just 13 days later, less if you can't the one spot I saw yesterday.
Still no other signs that I'm aware of, I'm just gonna keep observing at this time I think.
The timeline fits the crypto lifecycle span. 2 weeks is the average life cycle for the parasite, but not all strains follow the same timeline. You could have a strain that reproduces faster than average. Not saying definitively that you are dealing with crypto, just stating it's not out of the realm of possibility.
iReefer2
01/31/2014, 11:32 PM
Mmm is there any test I can do to positively ID as ich or not?
It may be a terrible idea, but could I controllably add a stressor, that can make ich more prominent so I can positively id? But obviously then, if I remove stressor quick enough, can I control the outbreak, get fish stable for removal to a H Tank?
Or is best way to microscope like discussed earlier in thread?
FYI, I am running UV, I know this does nothing, but I've ran it from day one, for water clarity.
Deinonych
02/01/2014, 09:33 AM
Mmm is there any test I can do to positively ID as ich or not?
It may be a terrible idea, but could I controllably add a stressor, that can make ich more prominent so I can positively id? But obviously then, if I remove stressor quick enough, can I control the outbreak, get fish stable for removal to a H Tank?
Or is best way to microscope like discussed earlier in thread?
FYI, I am running UV, I know this does nothing, but I've ran it from day one, for water clarity.
I don't know of a way to test for it. If you do have crypto, it will eventually manifest itself in significant numbers over time. A microscope would confirm it, but you would have to do a skin or gill scrape, which I personally do not feel comfortable attempting.
iReefer2
02/01/2014, 10:50 AM
Small update.
Viewed the blue tang this morning, the 2 white spots just above the pelvic fin, one was not noticeable at all, and the other was not as prominent.
The white original white spot had what looked like a piece of sand stuck to it, so it was waving a bit in the current, didn't look like fungus, it was very tiny, could have just been a piece of sand stuck to it, but quite coincidental that it was right on that spot.
Also, one of the neon gobies was all over her, never seen them really clean before, so not sure if this means anything? Again could be coincidental.
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