Sps and temp low 80's

[BrentH]

My temp has been getting up into the low 80's 82 max can this be an issue?i had my temp probe in sump and it's been reading 78 and recently moved it to actual dt were it reads 82 My tank seems ok but I do lose a piece here and there when I get new frags thanks for any input I'm going to add another chiller in the next day or 2

[CW from the OC]

Many natural reefs have temps well into the mid 80's, and even higher.

[BrentH]

Ok I just need some reassurance

[BrentH]

Thank u do any u guys keep or let ur tank get into 80's mine doesn't go over 82. But has me stressing a little and chillers are not cheap I have a 1/2 hp on now and have another 1/2 in garage I can add but would be a pain

[Nanighan]

My tank is basically there all summer (80-84). Mostly around 82. Everything is fine in my experience.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEXEzItwIOQ

[tdb320reef]

I notice better color and health at 77-78. Faster growth at 80-81

[BrentH]

I've seen a few guys with there 80 to 84 then I hear some that say sps can rtn over 80 thanks again I just want to be sure and hate to have probs on something as simple as temp :)nice vid by the ways like when guys have stuff growing off the back and sides looks great

[Peter Eichler]

Anyone that thinks SPS rtn at temps above 80 is living in the stone age of reefing... 82 is an average temp for many of the reefs in the areas where are corals come from, and safe highs reach the mid to upper 80's with regularity. People shouldn't give any temps below the mid 80s even a mild consideration for being damaging, and some studies suggest that temps in the low 80's can encourage growth within certain corals.

[maikoa02]

It's not so much about temp. but rather stability of temp. and water parameters.

[BrentH]

Got it thanks I won't stress on temp as much I feel better :)

[MisterP]

Just curious what is meant by stability of temp?

I see lots of people who keep their temps strictly within +/- 1 degree F, like 77-78F.

I don't really understand why this matters as day and night temp swings in nature would be much different than just hovering the tank at +/- degree.

What are the thoughts on say letting the temp naturally cycle with the lights on up to 80-81 F, then at night dropping down to 76-77F?

[LoJack]

Just curious what is meant by stability of temp?

I see lots of people who keep their temps strictly within +/- 1 degree F, like 77-78F.

I don't really understand why this matters as day and night temp swings in nature would be much different than just hovering the tank at +/- degree.

What are the thoughts on say letting the temp naturally cycle with the lights on up to 80-81 F, then at night dropping down to 76-77F?

I don't think nature would have big fluctuations. You have a huge huge volume of water in the ocean, and while the reefs are in shallow water, you have such tremendous flow that I'd think you'd have tons of stability in ocean temperatures.

You would have seasonal fluctuation I think, as currents change … but you wouldn't have daily fluctuation based on the weather and the sunshine, its just too much water.

[Peter Eichler]

I don't think nature would have big fluctuations. You have a huge huge volume of water in the ocean, and while the reefs are in shallow water, you have such tremendous flow that I'd think you'd have tons of stability in ocean temperatures.

You would have seasonal fluctuation I think, as currents change … but you wouldn't have daily fluctuation based on the weather and the sunshine, its just too much water.

Actually, the temperature on many reefs in anything but stable. There are often dramatic and immediate swings throughout the course of a day due to upswells and shifting currents and tides. Also, daily shifts from day to night are also common, often in the area of 5f.

[Peter Eichler]

Just curious what is meant by stability of temp?

I see lots of people who keep their temps strictly within +/- 1 degree F, like 77-78F.

I don't really understand why this matters as day and night temp swings in nature would be much different than just hovering the tank at +/- degree.

What are the thoughts on say letting the temp naturally cycle with the lights on up to 80-81 F, then at night dropping down to 76-77F?

I've been stating for years that letting temperatures fluctuate is not only not harmful, but also may have some benefits. Honestly, anywhere from the mid 70's to mid 80's and the swings that occur within the range should be just fine. I've been allowing and encouraging my temps to fluctuate for years and have noticed no negatives. I feel that it has helped my corals pull through during the times when things go wrong and the temp travels outside of the desired range.

[MisterP]

I agree with your approach Peter and I had never found any data, YET, that shows temps staying within such a tiny range of 1 degree.

I can't see how moving from 75 as a low at night to 79-80 at full light could be harmful at all. In fact, and this is the part I really think you're spot on about is it could actually be helpful and simulate more of a natural swing.

Certainly I'm not saying 10 degree F swings are good but if the tank stays in a 4-5 F range from night to day it could be beneficial.

[scottwhitson]

I also agree with the theory of letting temps swing. I think the people who strive to maintain 1 degree of temp swings are asking for trouble when something does happen and you get a larger swing. I run my tanks so they don't drop below 78 but they get as high as 84 with no issues.

[MisterP]

Check out the info in the Borneman Corals book around pg 348. It has some nice info on this exact topic talking about how most reefs average range from about 78-84 F

Some shallow reefs even have crazy temp swings as high as 10+ F a day

[johnike]

What are the thoughts on say letting the temp naturally cycle with the lights on up to 80-81 F, then at night dropping down to 76-77F?

Exactly what my tank does.

[BrentH]

Mines 78 at night to 82 day !

[ptreef]

i have about 2-3 degree day swing in winter and ~3* day swing in summer.
76-79ish in winter and 78-81ish in summer.
I think a "steady temp is bad...ie set to stay with in a .5-1* range. Makes corals succeptable to any swing in the future. My opinion, however.

No issues!!

[biggles]

My temp goes from 78-81 most days now i'm running the 400W Radium, 78-82 is nothing to stress about at all Brent. My last tank used to hit 86 in summer some days and nothing rolled over and died.

[brad_G]

I go from 72 to 78 almost everyday....some days down to 70. I feel the corals can adapt to swings and eventually make them stronger or more resistant to changes. I also feel that a stable time is probably better for the overall growth and health.

[Peter Eichler]

In the winter my tank usually goes from about 76 on really cold days to 80 when it's an average Wisconsin winter. In the summer it's generally a low of 80 and a high of 83ish, if it goes higher I'm fine with it, but being in a basement of a well cooled house it generally only goes higher during extreme heat. My old tanks used to hit mid 80's regularly with no detrimental effects.

I recently had my tank hit 68f and only had problems with a couple corals, two RTN'd in portions, but after being fragged the corals pulled through. The rest didn't even lose any color. Hard to say if that has anything to do with the fluctuating temps, but I at least have a feeling that if I had been maintaining one temperature all along for years I wouldn't have fared so well.

[red clay]

This is odd, so don try this at home. I used to work for a well known reef store in Dallas TX that caught on fire. Obviously the temp reach some extremes in many tanks. I am in no way implying cause and effect, but the display tank spawned. It was undamaged from the fire, but I thought it was odd that an extreme increase in temp and the spawning occurred around the same time

[Peter Eichler]

This is odd, so don try this at home. I used to work for a well known reef store in Dallas TX that caught on fire. Obviously the temp reach some extremes in many tanks. I am in no way implying cause and effect, but the display tank spawned. It was undamaged from the fire, but I thought it was odd that an extreme increase in temp and the spawning occurred around the same time

So you're saying we should start a fire near our tanks in order to induce spawning? :lol::xlbirthday::furious::smokin:

[biggles]

You go first Peter...........

[a.browning]

My temp has been getting up into the low 80's 82 max can this be an issue?i had my temp probe in sump and it's been reading 78 and recently moved it to actual dt were it reads 82 My tank seems ok but I do lose a piece here and there when I get new frags thanks for any input I'm going to add another chiller in the next day or 2

82 is perfectly fine and definitely doesn't warrant the use of a chiller. Above 84 is when I would start thinking about that.

[red clay]

Peter, you caught me. I secretly wanted to see who would try it. Lol. But seriously, I agree that extremes are part of the cycle of life. With all other living things, draughts, floods, cold, whatnot can't spur spawning, etc. no different than creating a safe broader temperature range. Great topic everyone. I've been sending this link to others

[BrentH]

I'm glad to see pretty much everyone's tank goes up and down within about. 5 degrees the only bad thing I've always thought about fluctuating temp also is it stresses the fish? Or promotes ich?.im prob way off on that as we'll lol . The corals spawning from the high temps or fire is interesting I think I read or heard somewhere that corals or clams spawn.when severely stressed as a last resort to spread there seed or something like that maybe the case on that

[RadReefer]

My tank is kept at 78 degrees during the fall through spring. In the summer months it increases and swings from 80-84 degrees on a daily basis. My corals all grow significantly during this time period and coloration is normal. Also, I will note that the tank gets more natural sunlight during the winter but this doesn't seem to be as much of a factor for growth than the temp. My rock flower anemones spawn when temps increase during summer months as well. One of the downsides to increased temp I find is increased algae growth. Bacteria also multiply exponentially faster at increasing temps which can lead to trouble for coral or other inhabitants.

[BrentH]

I'm actually having some Dino issues lately it seems to be going away my. Do cartridge was exhausted but have noticed the Dino's seem to be a little more when temp on higher side hmmm

[tmz]

Diurinal daily temperature swings are common on reefs varyng rom a degree or two F to as much as 5, IIRC. Ther is plent of data on diurinal reef temps avaialbe on the web.

Higher temps increase metabolic rates, so all the organisms go faster.

Lower temp water holds more oxygen than warmer water.

Nightime hypoxia can be an issue for some corals as photosynthesis stops adding O2 to the water. Lower nightime temps might offset that a bit.

FWIW, I run my system at 77 to 79 F daily variation with occasional drops to 76 and jumps to 80

[Peter Eichler]

Diurinal daily temperature swings are common on reefs varyng rom a degree or two F to as much as 5, IIRC. Ther is plent of data on diurinal reef temps avaialbe on the web.

Higher temps increase metabolic rates, so all the organisms go faster.

Lower temp water holds more oxygen than warmer water.

Nightime hypoxia can be an issue for some corals as photosynthesis stops adding O2 to the water. Lower nightime temps might offset that a bit.

FWIW, I run my system at 77 to 79 F daily variation with occasional drops to 76 and jumps to 80

Depending on the reef, daily swings can be much higher that 5f.

The difference in oxygen saturation levels at say 78 vs. 86 is so small (7%) that it's not even worth discussing. In a properly functioning reef, oxygen levels will be fairly close to saturation and far far away from levels that could cause any stress to inhabitants and will certainly not go low enough to cause hypoxia in corals.

[tmz]

FWI, Min rune 77 to 78 with occsional drops to 76, rare 75 and jumps to 80,rare 81. Seem to get a little more growth at higher temps. Metabolsim increases with temp.
Worth noting cooler water holds more oxygen and will hold a little more calcium and carbonate in solution.

[Acronic]

Not to mention calcification is better at lower temps ;)

Plenty of corals are collected in cooler waters. There is some merit to having lower temps when introducing fresh imports.

[tmz]

The difference in oxygen saturation levels at say 78 vs. 86 is so small (7%) that it's not even worth discussing. In a properly functioning reef, oxygen levels will be fairly close to saturation and far far away from levels that could cause any stress to inhabitants and will certainly not go low enough to cause hypoxia in corals.

It's more like 9% between 75.2 and 86F which sounds significant enough to me to notice especially when nightime oxygen levels fall due to a cessation of photosynthesis and replacemnt by respiratory activity.

It's your opinion that this 9% O2 reduction is not important ;I guess based on your statement ,if I read it correctly. , You are entitled to your opinion .
For clarification, though, could you explain; How do you know the extra -9% low O2 won't trigger localized hypoxic conditions detrimental to corals?What is the critical theshold in your opinion? Why do you think - 9% isn't worth noting as a factor.

For those interested in more information on oxygen levels and potential hypoxia these articles by Eric Borneman are very informative:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/eb/index.php

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/eb/index.php

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/eb/index.php

These are a few excerpts:



"...In the earlier part of this article, I described the role of oxygen in seawater and its potential effects on marine species. I noted, particularly, that hypoxia (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/eb/index.php#1) is likely to occur in reef waters, within coral colonies, at the coral tissue's surface, and that hypoxia potentially affects species exposed to it. The scientific literature suggests that such conditions might be relatively common at night..."

...The second factor is temperature; solubility of oxygen is inversely proportional to temperature. Cooler water can dissolve more oxygen than warmer water, a fact that is occasionally mentioned when discussing optimal temperatures for aquaria.

The other two factors noted in the article are pressure/ not an issue for aquariums and salinity

[CW from the OC]

It's more like 9% between 75.2 and 86F which sounds significant enough to me to notice especially when nightime oxygen levels fall due to a cessation of photosynthesis and replacemnt by respiratory activity.

It's your opinion that this 9% O2 reduction is not important ;I guess based on your statement ,if I read it correctly. , You are entitled to your opinion .
For clarification, though, could you explain; How do you know the extra -9% low O2 won't trigger localized hypoxic conditions detrimental to corals?What is the critical theshold in your opinion? Why do you think - 9% isn't worth noting as a factor.

For those interested in more information on oxygen levels and potential hypoxia these articles by Eric Borneman are very informative:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/eb/index.php

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/eb/index.php

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/eb/index.php

These are a few excerpts:



"...In the earlier part of this article, I described the role of oxygen in seawater and its potential effects on marine species. I noted, particularly, that hypoxia (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/eb/index.php#1) is likely to occur in reef waters, within coral colonies, at the coral tissue's surface, and that hypoxia potentially affects species exposed to it. The scientific literature suggests that such conditions might be relatively common at night..."

...The second factor is temperature; solubility of oxygen is inversely proportional to temperature. Cooler water can dissolve more oxygen than warmer water, a fact that is occasionally mentioned when discussing optimal temperatures for aquaria.

The other two factors noted in the article are pressure/ not an issue for aquariums and salinity

Hey Tom, I find your line of thought on oxygen very interesting. When I feed corals at night, I rountinley turn off the return pump (and leave on 2 Vortec's). This takes the skimmer off line. You are making me wonder if I am making the reduction of O2 worse. And perhaps injuring corals fish etc.....

[tmz]

Hey Tom, I find your line of thought on oxygen very interesting. When I feed corals at night, I rountinley turn off the return pump (and leave on 2 Vortec's). This takes the skimmer off line. You are making me wonder if I am making the reduction of O2 worse. And perhaps injuring corals fish etc.....

I do not turn the skimmer or pumps off. I broadcast feed the tank just before lights out. I don't use any mechanical filtration; there is usually plenty of pariculate organic matter flowting around. I also dose vokda and vinegar so there are a good number of bacteria in the food web too . I'd rather have the oxygenation than the amount of food that may happen to be pushed out with the skimmate.

[Peter Eichler]

It's more like 9% between 75.2 and 86F which sounds significant enough to me to notice especially when nightime oxygen levels fall due to a cessation of photosynthesis and replacemnt by respiratory activity.

It's your opinion that this 9% O2 reduction is not important ;I guess based on your statement ,if I read it correctly. , You are entitled to your opinion .
For clarification, though, could you explain; How do you know the extra -9% low O2 won't trigger localized hypoxic conditions detrimental to corals?What is the critical theshold in your opinion? Why do you think - 9% isn't worth noting as a factor.

For those interested in more information on oxygen levels and potential hypoxia these articles by Eric Borneman are very informative:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/eb/index.php

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/eb/index.php

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/eb/index.php

These are a few excerpts:



"...In the earlier part of this article, I described the role of oxygen in seawater and its potential effects on marine species. I noted, particularly, that hypoxia (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/eb/index.php#1) is likely to occur in reef waters, within coral colonies, at the coral tissue's surface, and that hypoxia potentially affects species exposed to it. The scientific literature suggests that such conditions might be relatively common at night..."

...The second factor is temperature; solubility of oxygen is inversely proportional to temperature. Cooler water can dissolve more oxygen than warmer water, a fact that is occasionally mentioned when discussing optimal temperatures for aquaria.

The other two factors noted in the article are pressure/ not an issue for aquariums and salinity


Here's a good quote from Green bean that fits this discussion well...

Simple answer- no.

First of all, a functioning reef tank has nearly identical oxygen saturation as the reef in nature, including the diel cycle. Even at minimum saturation (at night) the oxygen saturation is still more than 2 times the level at which reef fish respire comfortably and about 3 times the level where real physiological stress sets in. Increasing temperature from 78-86 only reduces oxygen saturation about 7% which is almost negligible at the levels we're talking about.

There is also this idea (the Q10 rule) that as temperature increases so does the metabolism of "cold blooded" animals. It's a good model except that it doesn't match what actually happens in a lot of animals- particularly lots of fish. The reason being that it's a simple model based on enzyme kinetics which assumes the animal's whole metabolism works the same as a single isolated enzyme. What you see in the real world is that even in many "cold blooded" animals, metabolism stays roughly the same over an acclimatized range.

The caveat here is that we know essentially nothing about metabolism of reef fish vs. temperature. We don't know if they maintain a consistent respiration rate or if it increases with temp. We assume though that being from a thermally fluctuating environment such as a reef though, most probably keep a fairly constant rate over their acclimatized range rather than continuously vary their rate throughout the day.

We do actually have measurements for several species of coral and most maintain constant respiration as is expected. There are a few that don't and they see about 30-50% increases in respiration over the range of temps.

Now all of this assumes that things are working fine. What happens when the power goes out or a heater sticks on? In corals, what you see is that as temperature increases the rate of increase in respiration is roughly the same regardless of what temperature the coral was acclimatized to. What that means is that at any given temperature above the normal maximum, a coral from a colder environment will be respiring significantly more than one from a warmer environment. Again reef fish are poorly studied, but a similar response is expected.

So it gets very confusing, but the bottom line is that you aren't pushing the limits by keeping the temperature warmer (thanks TS for catching my typo) even in captivity. A lot of what we know about the response of reef organisms to temperature changes is actually from captive experiments. Plus there are actually quite a few reefers, including myself whose tanks do regularly get into the mid 80s (and sometimes even higher) without ill effect.

My own tank used to run between 82-86 all summer long for about 6 years (occasionally up to 88 and even up to 92 one time) and suffered many a power outage at those temperatures without any losses or disease attributable to the temp.

[tmz]

I think that suits discussion to a degree. I respectfully disagree with the conclusions in the context of this discussion,particularly for corals when the oxygen drops at night from a lack of photosynthesis and some polyps in densely packed coral growth get less flow for the most part anyway.."Pushing the limits" is vague and variable from tank to tank and even coral to coral. The fact that cooler water holds more oxygen is worth knowing and considering,imo.

[CW from the OC]

I do not turn the skimmer or pumps off. I broadcast feed the tank just before lights out. I don't use any mechanical filtration; there is usually plenty of pariculate organic matter flowting around. I also dose vokda and vinegar so there are a good number of bacteria in the food web too . I'd rather have the oxygenation than the amount of food that may happen to be pushed out with the skimmate.

That seems like a great way to handle, I'll give it a try. Thanks Tom.

[BrentH]

I had to come back to this thread do to my tank being around 83 I feel better. Now after reading through this again lol... It's getting rally hot here in so cal lately sucs

[BrentH]

My ac on my house went out they had to order parts man my tank really adds heat to the house water temp hovering around 85 I had to come back to this thread to reassure myself that this is ok .... I never realized that how much Keepingfishmfk house cool has affected the tank temp .... WhAts the highest anyone's seen without massive issues ?

[ptreef]

Your pushing it....may want to freeze some water jugs or two liters and float. Or get some serious air flow across the tank. I would not want to push 85*

and or cut buck MH's for the next few days till the AC gets working. A few days of lower light will be ok for corals as well

[PaleHorse]

Your pushing it....may want to freeze some water jugs or two liters and float. Or get some serious air flow across the tank. I would not want to push 85*

and or cut buck MH's for the next few days till the AC gets working. A few days of lower light will be ok for corals as well

+1 i would be worried. what if your temp was 1 or 2 degrees off and it was 86-87?

[tmb22]

Mines 78 at night to 82 day !This is exactly what I keep my tank at in the summer. Around 76 to 78 in the winter. I don't have a source for this, but I think it's good to keep somewhat of a temp swing in the tank. If you kept the tank at exactly 78.5 degrees all the time, the corals might become used to it and if the temp goes up or down a few degrees, the corals could suffer. This is not the case with a tank that has a bit of a temperature swing daily.

[Tweaked]

Mixed reef here, and my LPS do better at 77-78. It swings from 77 in the am to 78.8 at peak with the halides.

[BrentH]

I'll cut down the mh the tank had. 6 on it so even only leaving like 2 or. 3 on will help reduce heat I already have. 2 fans and a chiller on the tank

[BrentH]

+1 i would be worried. what if your temp was 1 or 2 degrees off and it was 86-87?

I actually thought about this even though I have 2 separate temp probes that are offset by 1/2 a degree I still don't trust them complelty

[GroktheCube]

I have my tank swing between 78 and 82 over the course of the day.

85 definitely seems like pushing it. 85 on its own is fine, but doesn't leave you with my room for error!

[BrentH]

We'll they just finished fixing my ac so I should be ok :)now it's funny how spoiled u get taking things for granite

[Amphiprion]

I've always allowed swings in my systems and never noticed stress from higher temps. I have, alternatively, had problems with lower temp swings. In my region, acclimating animals to higher temps and fluctuations will only help with potential longevity in the event of unforeseen disasters.