57 gallon rimless cycle question

[Hyrule]

I started my 57 gallon rimless tank 9 days ago. I have an eshopps RS-75 sump and used only ro water. I've been running my lights for 4 hours per day. I have 50 pounds fiji dry rock and 40 pounds of live sand.
My parameters after 9 days:
Nitrite - 2.0
Nitrate - 20
Ph - 8
Ammonia - 0

I never added an ammonia source, i.e. fish food or dead shrimp. I wanted to stay away from adding chemicals or rotting shrimp and definitely didn't want to subjugate a live fish to a tank cycle.
My questions are:
1. With my parameters the way they are is it possible that my tank is cycling naturally?
2. Has anyone seen a tank cycle like this? With 100% dry rock and no added ammonia source.
3. Does anyone have any suggestions for what I could be doing differently?

I forgot to mention that I have a brownish colored stuff on top of my sand bed and on my glass. Is this normal? I have read that these are diatoms and that it is normal to see them. Just want to be sure.

[Travish881]

You'll want to add some live rock from another mature tank to help seed your dry rock. Have you seen an ammonia spike at all so far ?

[Hyrule]

I wanted to stay away from live rock. I had a 24 gallon bio cube three years ago and I went with all live rock. I had lots of problems aptasia.
I'm not sure if there was ammonia before because tonight was my first water test.
In order to have nitrate does there have to be ammonia first? Or can you have nitrates without ever having any ammonia?

[Jsamper]

Don't think you understand the benefits of having live rock.

[Hyrule]

Is it not true that dry rock will become live rock. That is the whole reason for cycling and curing a tank with dry rock. The reasons for dry rock in my opinion far out way the reasons for having live rock to start. There are just too many unwanted hitch hikers on live rock. If you can turn dry rock into live rock than I don't see the problem.
My original questions are related to this process. Since I started with all dry rock and given my current water parameters is it possible that the nitrifying process of a tank cycle is taking place in my tank. All happening without the addition of an added ammonia source. One speculation I have is there was some dead organic material on the dry rock and that is the original ammonia source. Maybe someone else has experience with this?

[thegrun]

I would add an ammonia source. You need to develop a sizable population of the bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrites, and since you used dry rock with no ammonia source, there is nothing for those bacteria to live on so you will have little or no bacteria. Your choices are to add pure ammonia without surfactants, a dead raw shrimp or a daily pinch of flake fish food. Pure ammonia is the quickest, followed by the shrimp and flake food the slowest. If you use ammonia, be sure the ammonia does not contain surfactants, shake the bottle and if it bubbles up like dish soap it has surfactants in it, pure ammonia will not have bubbles. To raise 100 gallons of water from 0 to 3 ppm ammonia you would need to add 1.2grams (12 ml) of standard 10% pure ammonia.

[Hyrule]

Thegrun thanks for the response. My question still remains the same. I have detectable nitrates in my tank. Is it possible to have nitrates without any original ammonia source? Or do nitrates need ammonia in order to exist? Is it possible that my tank had some ammonia from some dead organic material on the dry rock and thus produced an ammonia source. Possibly was detectable at some point, but because I didn't test the water until after 9 days I didn't know.

[thegrun]

It is possible, but very unlikely that ammonia was converted to nitrites in such a short span of time. It is much more likely the rock or sand is leaching nitrites into the water. I would still recommend adding an ammonia source.

[Hyrule]

When ghost feeding a tank is it advisable to turn off the return pump? Or does it matter if the food goes right into the filter sock?

[thegrun]

If you elect to ghost feed I would remove the filter sock until your ammonia levels rise above 1ppm.

[Hyrule]

Did water test today and everything was the same. I decided to start ghost feeding the tank. I'll do a test tomorrow and see if anything changes. On a side note, I replaced my deep blue triton 3 return pump with a Sicce 2.0, and wow what a difference. It is dead silent. Now if I could just quiet my hose going from overflow box to sump. That would be nice.

[Hyrule]

Just tested water again. Results are:
Ph - 8.0
Nitrite - 2.0
Ammonia - 0
Nitrate - 80

So my nitrates have jumped quite a bit but still no ammonia. What's going on here. Should I keep ghost feeding? Or should I do a big water change and assume my cycle is complete?

[Hyrule]

264346
My first attempt at uploading a picture. Hope t works.

[Hyrule]

Anyone out there have any thoughts?

[RedStangGA]

Add more ammonia. Do it on a day off. Test immediately after adding and then every hour or two after. As ammonia starts to go down test nitrites and then nitrates. You should be able to see a progression. With nitrates at 80 I'd say you might have a working bio filter but it's difficult to say for sure given that you relied on dead rock as a source and that's not a sure bet. Different bacteria do different things. You want to make absolutely sure that you have the necessary bacteria to convert ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate.

You can't be positive until you've tracked it and frankly without an ammonia source other than a small amount of ghost feeding I don't think your biofilter is completely established yet.

What are you using to test ammonia? It's also possible your test kit is bad. Do you have a LFS in your area to get backup readings?

Also, where in GA are you?

[Hyrule]

I have an API and it says the expiration date is 2018. I have a local fish store but they recommend introducing live fish to a new saltwater tank. I really don't want to go that route and it also makes me question their advice. I also have a bottle of start smart complete that claims to instantly cycle a tank. I've been holding off on using it because I was hoping I wouldn't have to. If you think there is a better product than I'm all ears.

[RedStangGA]

I'm looking at starting my 60 soon. Hopefully next month. Like you I want to avoid introducing anything to my system except what I want so I won't be using LR either. I've considered using one of the cycle starters but think I'll go with just pure ammonia. From what I've researched and been told the bacteria will appear with the introduction of ammonia. I have no clue how but it seems to be true so I'll push the "I believe" button and give it a try. But everything I've read says you have to dose the ammonia, not just put salt water in and hope for the best.

I've read a couple threads that mentioned you can get pure ammonia from WalMart or Ace Hardware. Research it though. You need pure ammonia not ammonia mixed with something else.

I'm not familiar with the Start Smart product.

[Hyrule]

I'm sure it's possible to start a tank with only dry rock because lots of people do it. And I think the benefits of not having any unwanted pests far outweigh the frustration of getting the stuff to turn into live rock. I've also read about using pure ammonia but have been hesitant to try it. But, after two weeks and no ammonia I think I might go that route. How much ammonia do you plan on adding and how often?

[RedStangGA]

I'm sure it's possible to start a tank with only dry rock because lots of people do it. And I think the benefits of not having any unwanted pests far outweigh the frustration of getting the stuff to turn into live rock. I've also read about using pure ammonia but have been hesitant to try it. But, after two weeks and no ammonia I think I might go that route. How much ammonia do you plan on adding and how often?

Probably 1/2-3/4 teaspoon per day with the idea of keeping it at about 4-5ppm. I'd probably keep it up until I see nitrites spike and then drop it down to ~1ppm until nitrates go up.

I'm still debating whether to introduce bacteria in conjunction with the ammonia dosing or not.

Remember to use pure ammonia. Only ingredients should be ammonia and water.

[Hyrule]

Have you heard of the bio spira product? Is that basically doing the same thing as adding ammonia?

[RedStangGA]

Have you heard of the bio spira product? Is that basically doing the same thing as adding ammonia?

I have. That, along with Dr Tim's One and Only, are supposed to provide the necessary bacteria. But they don't include the ammonia to get started. Dr Tim's I believe suggests putting a fish in at the same time or ver soon after adding the bacteria as it will require an ammonia source to keep the bacteria alive.

I don't see any harm in putting in the bacteria to kick start the cycle. But I'll still definitely use an ammonia source and test to make sure the cycle progresses.

[Hyrule]

So I just dosed the tank with ammonia that I bought from ace hardware, and I also added two bottled of bio-spira. I'm going to let everything move around the tank and then test the water in about 1/2 an hour.

[Hyrule]

Water test results:
Nitrate 80
Nitrite 2.0
Ammonia 1.0

So I had a spike in ammonia which was expected. Nitrites and nitrates are all still the same. Should I add more ammonia tomorrow or do a water test and decide then.

[RedStangGA]

Is dose it up to 4-5ppm and then watch for the nitrites to spike and then trates.

[Hyrule]

I dosed the tank with ammonia again last night and brought the ammonia level up to 4. I checked the water just now and the ammonia is still at 4, the nitrites have gone up to 4.0, and nitrates seem to be staying at 80. I take it that this means that everything is working as it's supposed to?
It's hard to tell the difference on the color chart they give you with the test kits. The nitrates and nitrites especially have very subtle color differences.
Also, could someone confirm that the brown spots on my sand are diatoms. Are they a good thing and will they go away?

[Mg4life0331]

I dosed the tank with ammonia again last night and brought the ammonia level up to 4. I checked the water just now and the ammonia is still at 4, the nitrites have gone up to 4.0, and nitrates seem to be staying at 80. I take it that this means that everything is working as it's supposed to?
It's hard to tell the difference on the color chart they give you with the test kits. The nitrates and nitrites especially have very subtle color differences.
Also, could someone confirm that the brown spots on my sand are diatoms. Are they a good thing and will they go away?

Its working and yes diatoms are normal. I have that API test kit and I agree the colors are hard to detect. I'm looking into other tests now, but for cycling you don't need exacts, just a rough idea on ammonia and nitrites.

[Hyrule]

How long should I keep my ammonia levels this high?

[RedStangGA]

IMO, until the ammonia can be processed in 24 hours.

[Hyrule]

So I just tested my water and the ammonia level has gone from 4.0 to .50 and my nitrates have stayed the same at 5.0. My nitrates are as high as the test kit has a color for, but at least my tank is starting to process the ammonia. I went ahead and dosed the tank again and brought the ammonia back up to 4.0, and am keeping my fingers crossed that my tank will process it a little faster. Then I think I can assume that my tanks cycle is near ingot he end.
My dry rock is starting to turn from bone white to brownish in color, so I think that's a good sign. As RedStangGA says I'm going to keep pushing the "I believe button".

[RedStangGA]

So I just tested my water and the ammonia level has gone from 4.0 to .50 and my nitrates have stayed the same at 5.0. My nitrates are as high as the test kit has a color for, but at least my tank is starting to process the ammonia. I went ahead and dosed the tank again and brought the ammonia back up to 4.0, and am keeping my fingers crossed that my tank will process it a little faster. Then I think I can assume that my tanks cycle is near ingot he end.
My dry rock is starting to turn from bone white to brownish in color, so I think that's a good sign. As RedStangGA says I'm going to keep pushing the "I believe button".

Sounds like you're pretty much good to go. The brownish stuff is probably your diatom bloom. Wait for ammonia and nitrite to drop to zero and then do a water change to drop down your nitrates!

[acabgd]

If your tank can process that amount of ammonia within 24h you're definitely good to go. You would have to do a significant water change in order to bring the nitrates down and also wait for nitrites to come down to 0 (very important!).

Don't be surprised if nitrites stay detectable for several days, as they stay that way and then drop suddenly within a few hours. Once that happens, you're good to go.

[Hyrule]

Just tested the water and 0.0 ammonia!!! Is it safe to say that I could do a water change and then wait for nitrites and nitrates to come down. Hopefully adding a CUC once things settle out. Or does anyone think that I should dose the tank with ammonia again and wait for results?

[RedStangGA]

Just tested the water and 0.0 ammonia!!! Is it safe to say that I could do a water change and then wait for nitrites and nitrates to come down. Hopefully adding a CUC once things settle out. Or does anyone think that I should dose the tank with ammonia again and wait for results?

Wait for nitrites to get to zero, then do you water change and add a small CUC.

[Hyrule]

What about ammonia? Should I add more?

[RedStangGA]

What about ammonia? Should I add more?

I wouldn't. Once nitrites are down I think you're good to go.

[Hyrule]

Ok. I just tested nitrites and they are as high as the test kit has a color for. I'll keep checking the nitrites and hopefully they will come down soon. I know you should be patient in this hobby, but damn I'm ready for some life in the tank. Thanks for all your help thus far. If it wasn't for your advise I would still be staring a tank full of rocks and sand, and with no cycle taking place.

[RedStangGA]

Ok. I just tested nitrites and they are as high as the test kit has a color for. I'll keep checking the nitrites and hopefully they will come down soon. I know you should be patient in this hobby, but damn I'm ready for some life in the tank. Thanks for all your help thus far. If it wasn't for your advise I would still be staring a tank full of rocks and sand, and with no cycle taking place.

Patience sucks lol! It's a little humbling to be a grown man and realize you really can't control the situation!

And I'm happy to help. We all have to do our part to help others. Sometimes people get tired of answering the same questions so as they drift off others have to step up and do what they can.

Start with your CUC. You'll love watching them move about cleaning up algae. Pick up some copepods too to seed your tank and give them time and a chance to multiply. Can't remember, do you have a stocking list?

What I'm trying to figure out right now is how to get the microfauna in the sand without having live rock. Things like worms, stars, and other things. I know a couple companies sell packages but I don't know how helpful and legitimate they are.

[Hyrule]

What do the copepods do? Do some of the micro fauna come in with live sand, because if they do, you could go that route. I'm not sure of a stocking list yet. I know I want zoanthids, I'm going to try for sps down the road, and I think maybe just a couple fish. Maybe a clown fish or two and maybe a goby of some sort. My end goal is to have a ton of sps. I know it's tough but I'm going to take it slow. What do you plan on putting in your new tank?

[RedStangGA]

Copepods and amphipods provide a natural supply of food to fish and corals. The graze on algae though not enough to consider them a part of the CUC. They're certainly worth having though. Zoa's are a great place to start.

SPS are worth having but make sure you get Alk, Calcium, and Mag test kits. If you don't have a phosphate kit you'll need that as well. One thing to keep in mind is that zoas kind of like dirty water where SPS like super clean water. They can coexist but it takes effort. A healthy fish population is speculated to help as if you feed the fish heavily it provides the nutrients that corals need before those nutrients get stripped out by a good skimmer before they break down. It's also speculated that fish poo helps.

With a 57 gallon you can get a fair number of fish. A couple of clowns are always nice IMO as they can be colorful and active. A goby/shrimp combo while not seen much is very cool to observe. A blenny like a bicolor or tail spot would be an excellent addition. They seem to like to people watch. And with 57 gallons you can even fit a wrasse or two for added color and movement. Tons of other fish too. Just research what you're interested in and make sure that they are compatible with the other fish and corals. You'll also want to add your most aggressive fish last. Just be sure to add fish slowly. No more than 2 at a time IMO and spread them out at least a couple of weeks. And make sure you quarantine them :).

Good luck!

[Hyrule]

I was just reading about nitrite spikes and it seems that it could take a couple days or weeks. My question is, am I at risk of my beneficial bacteria dying off since there is no ammonia source to feed them? I just checked my nitrites and they are still through the roof. The vile is almost glowing purple. I just don't want to risk having to start this whole cycling process over again.

[RedStangGA]

I was just reading about nitrite spikes and it seems that it could take a couple days or weeks. My question is, am I at risk of my beneficial bacteria dying off since there is no ammonia source to feed them? I just checked my nitrites and they are still through the roof. The vile is almost glowing purple. I just don't want to risk having to start this whole cycling process over again.

I waited a couple weeks to a month after my cycle finished with nothing but a CUC before I added a fish. You'll be fine.

[acabgd]

I was just reading about nitrite spikes and it seems that it could take a couple days or weeks. My question is, am I at risk of my beneficial bacteria dying off since there is no ammonia source to feed them? I just checked my nitrites and they are still through the roof. The vile is almost glowing purple. I just don't want to risk having to start this whole cycling process over again.

You're not at risk. You just have to wait for nitrites to come down. As I've already said, this can take a few days, maybe even a week. You won't see any change, color on the test will remain always the same and then suddenly within a few hours nitrite will come down to almost 0. Then you can make a large water change and introduce CUC.

I know it sucks to wait, but better safe than sorry...

[Hyrule]

I was without power for three days and my tanks water temperature got down to 58 degrees. Is it possible that the beneficial bacteria is still alive? Or should I do a water change and start the cycle over again?

[Strobes]

Oh man what terrible timing. I'm not sure if the bacteria would stay alive or not. But after all your patience I hope so. Sounds like u have my luck!

[acabgd]

You will know if you add ammonia and then check levels after 24hrs. If it's gone then you're good. However, without circulation for such a long time... I doubt it.

[RedStangGA]

Yeah, I'd dose ammonia and check the next day.

[Hyrule]

So yesterday I checked the water and had 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and 80 nitrates. Then I dosed the tank with ammonia back up to 4.0 to check if it could be processed in 24 hours. Today I checked the water and 0 ammonia and nitrites are back as high as the test will go. Can I assume my beneficial bacteria is still alive and well? And if so am I back to the nitrite waiting game?

[RedStangGA]

So yesterday I checked the water and had 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and 80 nitrates. Then I dosed the tank with ammonia back up to 4.0 to check if it could be processed in 24 hours. Today I checked the water and 0 ammonia and nitrites are back as high as the test will go. Can I assume my beneficial bacteria is still alive and well? And if so am I back to the nitrite waiting game?


Yep. Going to take a large water change to get nitrates down. May take several.

[Hyrule]

Awesome! Hopefully the nitrites will come down relatively quick. Do I need to wait for nitrites and nitrates to both be at 0 before adding CUC?

[RedStangGA]

Nitrites need to be zero. Nitrates should be very low. I'd say less than 5.

[Hyrule]

Ok. Thanks

[Hyrule]

So I did a 15 gallon water change yesterday and brought my trates down from 80 to 40. I know I need to do more water changes to get the trates much lower. My question is how long should I wait in between water changes? Are there any risks associated with doing water changes over consecutive days?

[RedStangGA]

You don't really have anything in there yet so you're good to go.

[Hyrule]

So I've done two water changes of 15 gallons each and nitrates are barely budging. Should I do a really big water change of maybe 30 or gallons?

[RedStangGA]

So I've done two water changes of 15 gallons each and nitrates are barely budging. Should I do a really big water change of maybe 30 or gallons?

API? Take a sample to a LFS and ask them to test it for you.

[Hyrule]

My test kits are API. I did a 25 gallon water change yesterday and today my nitrates are reading 10ppm. I guess I'm making some progress. Is it safe to introduce CUC or fish? Is it possible that because I used all dry rock that my tanks ability to process nitrates is not sufficient? Will adding livestock aid in the tanks ability to process nitrates over time?
On a side note, I ordered maxspect r420r 160 watt LED lights. Anyone have experience with these? I currently have current orbit marine LED lights, and I have read too much negative things about not being able to keep SPS. So, I bit the bullet and bought new lights.

[RedStangGA]

At the least a CUC is in order. Should be safe to put a single fish in too.

Have your stocking list planned out. Least aggressive first. Most aggressive last. Oh, if you like clowns I'd get two at once. Mine never bothered other fish even though they we're put in first. Some clowns can be aggressive though.

[SFish]

Every new tank gets diatoms.

[JMorris271]

This is a very educational well structured thread. (Whatever that means)
Please continue.

[Hyrule]

I definately am not experienced in this hobby, but I have learned more from the nice people responding to my questions than I have learned from spending hours, and I mean LOTS of hours, scouring the internet for information. Especially redstangga, thank you for all your help thus far. I'm sure there will be lots more questions to come...

[SFish]

I know what you mean. I wish I would have knew about this site when I tried to start my 18gal years ago. I tried 3 times and ended up giving up at the time. Now I have a 55 gal and have learned a lot but still have a long way to go.

[RedStangGA]

I definately am not experienced in this hobby, but I have learned more from the nice people responding to my questions than I have learned from spending hours, and I mean LOTS of hours, scouring the internet for information. Especially redstangga, thank you for all your help thus far. I'm sure there will be lots more questions to come...

Always my pleasure. I've only been in the hobby for 2.5 years. Getting someone to answer my questions without been a smart aleck was a chore at times. I will always recommend though that you never take someone's advice and just run with it. Research the advice first to make sure it makes sense.

[Hyrule]

I added two small $15 clownfish yesterday. They only hang out at the top of the water and never explore any where else. Is this normal for fish in new tanks? They don't seem to be gasping for distressed in any way. It just seems weird that they finally have tons of room to swim around and they only want to stay at the surface.
I have two tunze nanostream powerbeads for extra flow, is it possible they don't like all the extra flow?

[Windirmere]

Read up on the nitrogen cycle, ammonia is broken down into nitrite then nitrite into nitrate each time requires a different bacteria. So if your ammonia isn't being broken down quickly your tank isn't cycled

[Hyrule]

I was under the impression that if my tank can process ammonia with in 24 hours than my tank is cycled. Mine did that and my nitrites went to 0, and I have dropped my nitrates to 10ppm with several water changes. So I am not quite sure what you are referring to. I would not have put fish in the tank if I didn't think my tank was cycled. My parameters are still the same; 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and 10ppm nitrate.

[RedStangGA]

I was under the impression that if my tank can process ammonia with in 24 hours than my tank is cycled. Mine did that and my nitrites went to 0, and I have dropped my nitrates to 10ppm with several water changes. So I am not quite sure what you are referring to. I would not have put fish in the tank if I didn't think my tank was cycled. My parameters are still the same; 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and 10ppm nitrate.

You're cycled. As for the clowns, they're all different. Mine will spend time up near the surface, especially at night. Other times they're around my return nozzle and sometimes they just swim all over the place.

How did you acclimate them? A large drop in salinity is usually fine but a large increase can be problematic. Then again, plenty of people just temp acclimate and drop them in.

Clowns are pretty hardy fish. Are they eating?

[Hyrule]

i drip acclimated them for 30 minutes and fortunately they are eating. I guess I'm just paranoid. Its funny you mentioned that yours hang out around the return nozzle, because thats where mine spend most of their time.
My fish store was out of snails and crabs, they said that because of the ice storm everyones CUC died and they were totally wiped out of their stock. A new shipment is supposed to come in tuesday, so ill pick some up then. Im thinking that because i don't have much algae that i don't need large CUC, maybe 10-15 snails and the same amount of hermit crabs. Is it to soon to add a cleaner shrimp? Or is there any other CUC thats recommended for new tanks?

[RedStangGA]

i drip acclimated them for 30 minutes and fortunately they are eating. I guess I'm just paranoid. Its funny you mentioned that yours hang out around the return nozzle, because thats where mine spend most of their time.
My fish store was out of snails and crabs, they said that because of the ice storm everyones CUC died and they were totally wiped out of their stock. A new shipment is supposed to come in tuesday, so ill pick some up then. Im thinking that because i don't have much algae that i don't need large CUC, maybe 10-15 snails and the same amount of hermit crabs. Is it to soon to add a cleaner shrimp? Or is there any other CUC thats recommended for new tanks?

Stay away from hermits unless you truly love them. They'll just eat your snails. You want a mix of snails. Nerites, nassarius, cerith, dwarf cerith, and a couple turbo's would be a good mix.

Since you just added clowns wait a week or two before adding the cleaner. I loved min and will get another.

[Hyrule]

I added a frogspawn coral with two heads and two different colors of zoanthids. All of which opened up an hour after introduction into the tank and its awesome to have some color in the tank. Im thinking of buying a red hawkfish and a pseudochromis. I have read that both of these fish can be semi-aggresive, but I also read some peoples posts who have the fish, that they are not aggressive at all. I guess there is no way to know until the fish is in the tank, but if anyone has any other info on these fish, let me know.

[RedStangGA]

I added a frogspawn coral with two heads and two different colors of zoanthids. All of which opened up an hour after introduction into the tank and its awesome to have some color in the tank. Im thinking of buying a red hawkfish and a pseudochromis. I have read that both of these fish can be semi-aggresive, but I also read some peoples posts who have the fish, that they are not aggressive at all. I guess there is no way to know until the fish is in the tank, but if anyone has any other info on these fish, let me know.

Be patient. It's ok to add semi aggressive fish. As long as you add them last. Work out a list of fish you want to keep. Then using a resource like LiveAquaria rank them by aggressiveness. Add the most aggressive fish last.

In fact, Snorvich provides a service on this forum where he'll review your stocking plan and give feedback about compatibility. Trust me, you don't want only 3 or 4 fish in there and find out you can't add any more because of a single fish. According to Murphy's Law that will be the fish impossible to catch!