Buying an established aquarium?

[Cesfilly]

Hi guys!

I am new to salt water tanks but have had freshwater tanks for several years (I realize there are few similarities). Is there anything wring with buying an established tank from Craig's list? As long as water changes/upkeep is maintained?

How much does it cost (ball park, I know it would vary based on the tank) weekly?

Is there anything else I should know? (Besides investigating fish that come with the aquarium, special needs, etc)

Or is it better to start from scratch. Please no angry comments, if this is a no no, it's why I am asking before doing it :)

[bundybear1981]

Its a lot of work to move an established tank. Sand will be full of detris, to reuse it would require lots of cleaning (better to start with new sand) you may trigger a new cycle moving it.

Also you could end up with specimens you dont really want/like, or that are beyond you current skill level to care for.
You can score some good deals but make sure you research what you are getting. There is some junk out there. Make sure that copper treatments havent been used on the tank.
My tank costs about au$20 per week to run.
For your first tank I'd say start from scratch, you can build what you want. Learn a lot along the way and build the skills you need.
Sure, use craigslist to get some used equipment. People are always upgrading and you can get some good deals.

[SGT_York]

There is nothing wrong with buying used, however many people leave this hobby due to failures, caused by unrealisting expectations in bio-load, failure to plan, and high costs. So most used tanks will have some sorts of issues especially if you plan on introducing corals. High nitrates are a plague that can affect a tank for years to come. I bought my first batch of Live rock and it took more than a year to reduce the nitrates to an acceptable level because the original tank was so poorly run. Certainly buying equipment used can be a great bargain. Buying live items yes, but with increased risks.

As far as costs it increases exponentially with tank size. I have a 120Gallon and with salt, I buy 150 Gallon mix boxes every few months. So it's much cheaper $50 each. Food is a few dollars a week, and electricity which I can't really estimate and is very location dependent. Most of the maintenance costs are low unless you are big on reactor media (those can add up particuarly GFO)

[BrianD]

One thing to watch when you buy a complete setup used is the seller will sometimes list 900 different items they are selling and only a fraction of them are actually useful for the tank setup. Aquarists are notorious for "underbuying" on equipment, only to upgrade in a short time. So, there may be 5 pumps in a complete setup sale, but only one of them is needed. Etc etc etc. It looks impressive when the seller says "cost over $10k new!", but it isn't so impressive when $6k of the $10k was replaced or gathering dust.

[marcaharding]

one of your biggest expenses will be live rock, depending on your tank size, I purchased a 55 gallon from craigslist and had to upgrade filtration and lights. I got over 50 pounds of live rock that I transported and completely cleanded the tank and used new live sand and it still took around 30 days to cycle. Once the system is running I would plan on the 15-25 a week but in the beginning plan on spending alot more money with more frequent water changes and testing. Good luck

[Spyderturbo007]

I don't think I would buy an established aquarium, just because I enjoy being able to set mine up how I want. I'm not locked into someone elses' aquascaping, coral or fish choices.

I would buy used equipment though.

[ca1ore]

I have both bought and sold 'established' reef tanks. First and foremost, buyer beware! Most folks who are selling their tanks have a completely unrealistic perspective on what the thing is worth - usually based on the amount they have sunk into the hobby. Salt water is an incredibly corrosive environment, so inspect equipment very carefully lest you get it home only to discover that the light fixture that looked good on the outside is a rusted mess on the inside (I know this from personal experience). Very often used equipment is no bargain in the long-run, so I tend to look at it from the perspective that I am buying the livestock primarily, and the equipment just comes along for the ride.

Example, I bought a 90 gallon setup off craigslist about a year ago. Tank looked really nice and was packed with rock, fish and corals. Cursory valuation of the livestock I figured was over $2K if bought from my LFS, so I paid $1,200 for the entire thing. Got it home, and reset up things. Livestock was in very nice shape, but the equipment - not so much. Light fixture worked, but ultimately was replaced and the parts scavenged for other applications. Both the skimmer and main pumps needed new impellers in short order and the UV ballast failed after about a month. And I really inspected this stuff. So, caveat emptor. Was happy to have bought the tank just based off the livestock, but would have been very unhappy if the equipment had been my primary goal.

[ken6217]

I do not think it is a good idea for someone new to this hobby to buy an established aquarium (even if everything you buy sets up perfect).

It is better to start from scratch and LEARN about saltwater (water quality/parameters, equipment, livestock, etc, etc).

If you buy everything established, you won't be forced to learn until things go downhill for you. And, they will go downhill because you don't have the knowledge and experience of what is going on with your tank.
Ken

[Cesfilly]

Thanks guys these are all good points. So it would be good to get the equipment used *or* a tank with just live rock and sand and replace the sand and make sure to cycle the tank/check all equipment but expect to replace some of it. Yes? I really wouldn't want to be responsible for killing any livestock and it would be nice to plan what kind of livestock would be in the tank.

How important is a sump/refugarium in a 55 gallon tank? (I'm not trying to skimp, I just want to make sure I have a big picture idea) how hard are they to add? Does the protein skimmer always go into the sump? I have read about ones that attach to the side but are they as effective? Or are they so noisy you want them in a sump?

[Cesfilly]

I also meant to add does a sump/refugarium also depend on the fish being stocked?

[ken6217]

Thanks guys these are all good points. So it would be good to get the equipment used *or* a tank with just live rock and sand and replace the sand and make sure to cycle the tank/check all equipment but expect to replace some of it. Yes? I really wouldn't want to be responsible for killing any livestock and it would be nice to plan what kind of livestock would be in the tank.

How important is a sump/refugarium in a 55 gallon tank? (I'm not trying to skimp, I just want to make sure I have a big picture idea) how hard are they to add? Does the protein skimmer always go into the sump? I have read about ones that attach to the side but are they as effective? Or are they so noisy you want them in a sump?

Nothing wrong with that. Btw, it didn't mean you would necessarily kill everything. I just meant that learning by doing can be good.

I theory was always that what's good about a tank cycling is that it gives someone time to read and learn.

A sump is a good idea. With regards to a refugium, it has it's benefits but not necessarily a a necessity. You can also combine the two if you have one big enough.
Ken

[jdstank]

You'll save tons of $ buying a used tank and equipment which will free up money for other items such as sand/rock/livestock. If you have established live rock it can save you from cycling a tank if done right (don't use the "live sand"). Check out CaribSea Aragonite Seaflor Special Grade Reef Sand. It's a dry sand that just needs cleaned with RODI really well and with live rock that's coming from an established system you can avoid any cycle as the dry sand won't contain the bacteria that "live sand" does that's already dying off in the bags as they sit on the shelf. The sand I mentioned can be found for less than $30 for a 40lb bag, 2 will be plenty for a 55g tank. It's really no different than buying a tank, sand and live rock from a LFS which is how many people dive into the hobby. A few go the route of buying base rock and curing it, but even they typically use some form of established rock or rubble to get the bacteria going.

Sumps aren't 100% necessary, but they do aid in hiding the uglier parts of reef keeping like protein skimmers. There are some large HOB options for a 55, anything larger and a HOB will really struggle to keep up under anything other than a small bioload. Skimmers can be in-sump or plumbed to the sump but run outside of the sump (not your typical setup as in-sump is much easier). They also allow you to grow chaeto and other macros for aid in nutrient export without taking up display room in your main tank. If the 55 isn't drilled yet you can pick up a bit from Amazon or Ebay for around $10, bulkheads are also available on Ebay for much less than most places charge - you'll need at least 3 (drain, return and emergency drain) to run a sump.

[ca1ore]

I do not think it is a good idea for someone new to this hobby to buy an established aquarium (even if everything you buy sets up perfect).

It is better to start from scratch and LEARN about saltwater (water quality/parameters, equipment, livestock, etc, etc).

If you buy everything established, you won't be forced to learn until things go downhill for you. And, they will go downhill because you don't have the knowledge and experience of what is going on with your tank.
Ken

That is actually a really good point!

[ca1ore]

You'll save tons of $ buying a used tank and equipment which will free up money for other items such as sand/rock/livestock.

Respectfully disagree! Might save a bit upfront, but over the long haul it really does not. Of course, most people don't end up in it for the long haul so ......

[ca1ore]

How important is a sump/refugarium in a 55 gallon tank? (I'm not trying to skimp, I just want to make sure I have a big picture idea) how hard are they to add? Does the protein skimmer always go into the sump? I have read about ones that attach to the side but are they as effective? Or are they so noisy you want them in a sump?

There are 'must haves' and 'nice to haves', and while a sump is in the latter category, I'd not consider running a tank without one. It is difficult to effect productive surface skimming without an overflow, and you have to overflow to somewhere; the sump being the best option. A place to keep ugly equipment is just a side benefit.

[Cesfilly]

Ok great. I was thinking that something along those lines would be a great way to get into it.

What about biocubes? The "all inclusive tanks"? Are those to be avoided? I read some terrible reviews but I'm not sure how much of that is a small percentage etc. Or if the 55 or larger is a better way to go. I am leaning towards a larger tank because or water quality and stability but I just was curious about people's thoughts on biocubes.

Also, this may be a dumb question, but if you get a sump and an in-sump skimmer, do they come with directions on how to set them up? That is a little of what is terrifying me at the moment because I have looked at pictures of people sumps/refugarium and it looks really difficult to set up unless you know what you are doing. Is that true?

[julie180]

Setting up a tank and sump can be a challenge. Instructions are limited because there are so many options and ways to do things.

One way to learn is connect with other people in your area who are in the hobby. Most reefers I know are happy to show off their systems and answer questions. You can find local clubs at the bottom of the forums here.

[ca1ore]

I don't personally like the 55 because it is too narrow, front to back. A 75/90 is minimum for me, with a 48" 120 even better. Tiny tanks are just too twitchy IME.

Skimmer will come with instructions, yes. Not too hard to setup, but your best bet would be to find a reefer in your area who can come over and help you out. Folks generally happy to help.

[Cesfilly]

Ok, I figured set up would require assistance until I had more experience.

Jdstank, for the dry sand, are there animals that would burrow and clean it? How often does it need to be cleaned if not?

Also, I read somewhere that live sand overtime may accumulate pockets of hydrogen sulfide and can wipe out an entire tank. Is there any truth to that statement? I of course immediately think of purple sulfur bacteria which may but shouldn't other microbes exist that would "eat" those pockets? What does that mean as far as cleaning etc?

[jdstank]

Respectfully disagree! Might save a bit upfront, but over the long haul it really does not. Of course, most people don't end up in it for the long haul so ......

Look at it from the realistic perspective that most people that do stay in it upgrade their tank in relative short order. Tanks can last 20 years if cared for properly, and particularly tanks that were built some years back seem to have been built to last vs tanks of today. Getting a used tank to get started (for a year or so which seems to be the norm for a first tank) would certainly save $ that would otherwise likely be tossed away during upgrade. It's just like buying a used car and letting someone else eat the depreciation.

Like you said, most don't end up staying which would also save money that would otherwise be tossed away as depreciation when that setup gets listed for sale.

My first reef tank was a freebie 29g that was quickly (6months) switched out for a 75g I found on CL for $200 which included 2 bags of unused sand, a SWC skimmer, 40g breeder sump, 2 external return pumps, built in closed loop system, tons of new plumbing, 4xT5 retrofits and the tank. All I had to add was a stand and build a canopy for the retrofits - I barely could have got a new 75g for that price let alone the extras that came with it. The tank was stickered 1993 but was solid as a rock - previous guy took great care of it. I had it for nearly 2 years before upgrading again and passed it on to a new owner for what I paid for it and its running to this date. There's definitely deals to be had in the used market. Just use a sharp eye and pass if something doesn't seem right.

[Sk8r]

The ideal size for a marine tank for beginners is about 100 gallons. A built-in overflow is preferable to a hang-on-back (HOB). A sump is better than no sump. If you're fish-only you can get by with no sump and a large cannister filter. But if you want corals and such (they're not hard) a skimmer is recommended. A large (30 gallon and up) sump with a refugium is good. It can also hold your skimmer, a GFO reactor (cuts down on algae) and anything else you need. By buying used you can get a deal on such a system, but you need to have one more tank, about 30 gallons, bare of rock and sand, to hold all the inhabitants while the 'moved' tank re-settles and establishes its bio-system. I have a 102 gallon with half-inch thick glass, and it took two strong young men to set it on its stand. Moving one of these is not easy

You need that extra tank anyway to hold your new specimens for 4 weeks of observation: marine wild-caught fish bring in parasites and disease that can wipe out a tank---and you can't treat a marine tank with meds: it kills the biofilter and wipes out the tank.

Lighting matters, and T5s or metal halide will let you keep most corals, clams, etc. Lighting IS NOT CHEAP. Understand LED lights before you buy any such...there are good ones and ones that are pretty weak. Ordinary aquarium light will let you keep a fish-only.

In my own experience a fish-only is a very nice tank, but fish are far touchier than corals IF you have good coral equipment. My corals grow and live very easily. Many fish offered for sale are far more fragile. Plus---when you look at the advertising for marine equipment it looks as if you can pack all these fish into a tank: no: this is photoshopping and fantasy. You also can't keep as many as the fish store has in a tank: their sump system is a monster, and they have FAR more support than you can typically offer.

re your very good question on sand-cleaning, yes: nassarius snails burrow and clean; likewise fighting conchs; and some fish clean (and move) sand in piles.

All this said, I have maintained a successful (though algae-ridden) marine tank in a single 30-gallon long with nothing more than a penguin filter.

[jdstank]

Ok, I figured set up would require assistance until I had more experience.

Jdstank, for the dry sand, are there animals that would burrow and clean it? How often does it need to be cleaned if not?

Also, I read somewhere that live sand overtime may accumulate pockets of hydrogen sulfide and can wipe out an entire tank. Is there any truth to that statement? I of course immediately think of purple sulfur bacteria which may but shouldn't other microbes exist that would "eat" those pockets? What does that mean as far as cleaning etc?

The dry sand I mentioned has some advantages in that it's not packed wet and thus won't suffer die off sitting on a shelf. In terms of cleaning, all sand should be cleaned, but if you want to leave it up to animals that depend on the gunk in sand to survive you'll have to wait for your tank to become established no matter what sand you use. I like the reef grade sand because it's a larger particle and with a wavemaker I don't have the sandstorms that the sugar sand has. I've tried the Oolite - way too fine, the Fiji Pink, a step up but still had sand storms, and Ocean Direct - all too fine for my taste.

As for animals burrowing, your sand sifting fish (gobies in particular) will move pretty much anything. Some snails advertised as sand algae eaters don't actually eat anything in the sand but will sift it, and your bigger guys like sand sifting starfish need established systems or they will starve (they can eat a LOT of gunk in the sand and thus need bottom square footage rather than tank depth).

Any sandbed left untouched can build up toxic amounts of gases in the deeper parts, light vacuuming during water changes can help alleviate that problem by keeping the sand turned but not stripping all of the good bacteria from it.

Depending on who you ask, some will say no sand (bb - bare bottom), others use a shallow sand bed, some a mid, and others a deep sand bed. My personal preference is a 2-3" bed, the DSB (6"+) can acrue some nasty stuff. Too shallow and you find bare spots frequently from critters and water current moving it around. The 2-3" works well for me, not too deep that I can't keep it clean, and not too shallow to where I see bare spots all the time.

Personally, I just use a vacuum and sift varying areas of my sand during water changes. I have a few critters that keep it moved around pretty good but there's no substitute for good husbandry. I do have a large LTA that moves around in "his" corner every couple weeks and he has no problem shoving his foot through the sand. My Clarkii that resides in him seems a bit OCD about moving sand and regularly pushes piles around the tank. He may be the culprit for the nem moving, his pushing piles of sand around changes the water flow on the nems foot which seems to trigger a move. He likes to live under the nem as much as in it so he's always kicking the sand from under the nem when it moves.

[jdstank]

I don't personally like the 55 because it is too narrow, front to back. A 75/90 is minimum for me, with a 48" 120 even better. Tiny tanks are just too twitchy IME.

Definitely agree on the 55g. Front to back is just 12" on a 55 and scaping the rock is a huge challenge. To me the looks of the rock is 90% of the tank so I prefer a large footprint for aquascaping. 75g will get you an additional 6" front to back which may not seem like much but will make a dramatic difference in what you can and can't do with rock. 55's will pretty much limit you to a linear setup where rock runs side to side with little depth. 75s and up will gain you some ability to create outcroppings with depth, islands and such. I went through the aquascaping battles with narrow tanks (have had 29, 37, 55, 75 and 40b), loved my 75 and 40b but will never go back to a rectangle shaped tank after having switched to a cube style.

[acanlover]

If you are new to the hobby I advise against buying an established tank. Simply because it's "established." You being new to the hobby won't know to the full potential how to properly maintain a reef. That being said if something goes wrong it will be exponentially worse because of all the livestock already in there and you will get more emotional when everything you worked to move starts dying. You also get more experience and a better relationship as in knowing exactly how your tank works when you start it from scratch.

[Sk8r]

My tanks are wedges...one so deep I have trouble reaching anything that hits the sand---(a 3-4" sandbed is REALLY useful in that scenario!) but they offer a good compromise for one of those rooms that lacks long-run wall space. THe drawback is that the stand of the 55 is too small for anything but a large cannister filter.

I also drilled the floor to let hose through and maintain my sump in the basement.

[Sk8r]

A comment on moving the critters of a large tank: first of all, they need to go into a 4 week quarantine. If a problem develops, like ich, keep them in quarantine for 10-12 weeks, because that tank will also have the parasite. It will starve out in 12 weeks and you'll have no trouble.

You do have beginner problems coupled with a large quarantine, and establishing an ATO (autotopoff) on that quarantine tank is mandatory in a long stay (or you'll go crazy.) The main thing is to maintain parameters such as I have in my sig line and do it 24/7/365. There are tricks to make that a lot easier. The ATO is central to them all.

[Cesfilly]

Ok all great advice. So I am definitely not planning on buying an established aquarium. I really want to set it up to the way I will like it including fish choice. I already have a tank I can use for quarantine.

My local LFS said a great option for beginners was a 29 gallon biocube. Thoughts? I realize water changes would need to be religious, were they just trying to make a quick sale (I said I would think about it and have not purchased anything)?

[Cesfilly]

And thanks jdstank! Really helpful info.

[jdstank]

Ok all great advice. So I am definitely not planning on buying an established aquarium. I really want to set it up to the way I will like it including fish choice. I already have a tank I can use for quarantine.

My local LFS said a great option for beginners was a 29 gallon biocube. Thoughts? I realize water changes would need to be religious, were they just trying to make a quick sale (I said I would think about it and have not purchased anything)?

Never owned a biocube but from posts I've seen most people end up having to modify the backs to get them dialed in. Even then you're limited due to the All-in-one aspect. Lighting is probably one of the biggest drawbacks of the biocubes, you're kind of stuck with what they have unless you want to pay for a major retrofit LED kit (in which case you're throwing money away on the original unless you buy just the cube which is possible) I guess something to help would be to know what fish choice you're looking at? Biocubes are good only for the smallest fish, although people try stuffing tangs and other fish that have no business being in a small tank.

I'd still consider getting a larger used system, established or not. Just because it's established doesn't mean you'll have problems. It's going to need new sand anyway, but assuming the rocks are seasoned you won't have to go through that part of the cycle and will likely pay much less than the $7-10/pound that most LFS charge for live rock. 75 gallons are fairly prevalent on the used market and generally at a good price. At 48" wide you also have lots of options for lighting, new or used.

[Cesfilly]

Ok thanks!

[Sk8r]

Get your feet wet with a biocube, use it for what you want, then when you want more, sell it and get a larger tank. You know the fishy hobby: there's always an 'I give up' or an 'I want more.' Rarely is there a middle ground.
Good luck to you!

[E46Twist]

Even moving freshwater takes is a pain IMO. Something extremely sensitive like a reef tank would be a nightmare unless you really knew what you were doing and did it right. Also being a beginner it has been so much fun watching my glass box transform. If your wanting to skip the cycle you could break a tank down saving the LR by keeping it in water and also saving the water. Then you can move everything piece by piece. You can ask a LFS to hold on to any fish/corals. My LFS has tanks designated to housing fish for people who are moving or have something gobwring in there tank.

It is always a safer bet to start fresh.