Does hypo-salinity cause stress in fish?

[SS_Sean]

Does hypo-salinity cause stress in fish in and of itself?

[Spar]

reduces stress once acclimated; their body doesn't have to work as hard in hypo, such as efforts to filter through the salt. all fish will go through stress during the initial phase of changing parameters however, just to clarify.

[disc1]

Going down in salinity isn't so hard on them. It's coming back up where the real danger is. Raising salinity should always be done slowly and carefully.

[Dmorty217]

Yes it is very stressful on fish, the most stressful of all methods for treating ich

[SS_Sean]

Very interesting replies... so far we have , initially, then on the way down and up, and then we have the entire thing is stressful.

I'm sure the 'changes' in salinity is difficult, but was wondering if maintaining the salinity at 1.009 in and of itself is hard on the fish.

This is our first hypo-salinity treatment for ich and I'm learning all I can about it.

We lost a juvenile black clown last night and I'm ****ed. He was a beautiful little guy, paired with a bigger femaie. We had the salinity dropped to 1.009 for 10 days, and we've kept it rock steady at that, with acceptable water parameters. The rest of the fish appear in great health, no signs of ich, and all are eating, swimming well.

[MrTuskfish]

Yes it is very stressful on fish, the most stressful of all methods for treating ich

I think its stressful on the fish and the owner; mainly because it fails to cure ich so often and another method must be used.

[SS_Sean]

So you're not an advocate for the method....

[snorvich]

I think its stressful on the fish and the owner; mainly because it fails to cure ich so often and another method must be used.

Yes. Unfortunately, execution of hypo is labor intensive and easy to mess up. For ich, I advocate tank transfer, then copper and hypo as last resort.

[snorvich]

Going down in salinity isn't so hard on them. It's coming back up where the real danger is. Raising salinity should always be done slowly and carefully.

Total agreement. Which, by the way, is one reason I am unhappy that many LFS keep their SG low. That can be circumvented if you keep your quarantine receiving tank matched at the same low level but . . .

[SS_Sean]

Thanks, guys. The labor wasn't a concern. We have a scooter blenny and lawnmower blenny, so the copper wasn't an option. But slowly raising the salinity is a good point and I will do it over a period of a week, a little at a time.

[Spar]

Yes it is very stressful on fish, the most stressful of all methods for treating ich

more stressful than copper where you are technically poisoning the fish? more stressful than doing a 100% tank transfer every 2-3 days, scooping them up out of the water each time?

I agree with the points above that the period of time going up in salinity on a fish can possibly be stressful on the fish, but that is up to the owner on how they treat that period. For instance, if you were to raise the salinity by 1/2 ppt per day to get it back to 35 ppt, would that really be stressful on the fish? I wouldn't think so. I do understand that most people raise it significantly quicker (including me back when I did Hypo), but that is purely up to the owner/operator, not a requirement for the fish.

I still stand by that the actual duration of Hypo (pre-salinity raising) is less stressful on a fish, assuming the owner gives the appropriate other areas of care at the same time that should be required regardless of the method of QT taken... e.g. stable salinity, stable temperature, hiding places, keeps ammonia in check, keeps only a low number of compatible fish, etc, etc.

All this said, I switched from Hypo to TTM several months ago and haven't looked back. I trust the TTM method much more for what the primary purpose of QT is (for me)... to rid Ich. So I am not completely advocating Hypo, just stating what my understanding of the facts are about stress endured on the fish. As Tusk said, the true stress comes on the owner when the method fails and your DT is now infested and you have to start all over...

I never seemed to find the execution of Hypo labor intensive, but then again I had a 75g tank with 40g sump that had ATO. I also had a 200g reservoir that I filled up with already preset salinity and would/could do frequent water changes with hardly any effort (literally just by using my Apex/phone). Had I not had all of that, I would likely consider it to be as labor intensive, if not more, than TTM.

[SS_Sean]

Good read^^^ Thanks.

[tmz]

No, dropping sg , iis not stressful on fish short term unless you go below 1.009;the fish has an internal salinity of about 1.008. Marine fish drink a lot and process concentrated salts out primarily via concentrated urine enabling them to retain enough water to maintain the 1.008 ;if they loose that internal level ;they loose homeostasis and die. So, when the sdg drops, they just stop drinking and processing when sg is closer to their internal sg. Less work for them.
However, hypo salinity doesn't always work; their are strains of crytocaryon irritans that live in brackish water and some have been shown to adjust to very low sg by mutating genrationaly,ie, within a week or two. Sometimes , the ich appears to be gone after prolonged hypo terament and rrappears as the sg is raised. Hypo is not the best method,imo though it's an accepted method. It also requires months of confinement in a qaurantine tank which is usually less optimal than a display tank for the fish. The prolonged shut down of renal activity that occurs in hypo may cause some atrophy and damage to internal organs.

Tank transfer is not stressful if done correctly . Gentle transfer is easy. It is my prefferred method.

Raising salinity should be done slowly to avoid osmotic shock . The fish has to: kick its processing into gear ; drink a lot ;and ,urinate a lot top maintain internal sg. When the change in sg in teh surounding water is too rapid ,it can't keep up, fluid seeps out ,it looses internal sg ( dehydrates if you will) and may loose homeostasis and die. Raisng sg should be limited to .001 sg per day,imo, to avoid stress and a risk of osmotic shock.

[snorvich]

+1 with tmz (Tom). TT is by far the most effective. Both hypo and copper need to have the SG or copper level constantly tested and maintained or they will not be effective.

[SS_Sean]

Very good information. This is really interesting.
Tank transfer method. I'll have to look that up. I was only familiar with copper and hypo.
I ask because we're currently doing hypo-salinity treatment, but may very well switch over, based upon what was said here, now that we have a tank set up to handle several methods.

Let me edit that and say we may switch over after this treatment cycle is completed, and fish re-introduced.

So of the three methods:
-Hypo
-TT
-copper

TT is the least stressful to the fish. Interesting. If a fish is stressed due to tank factors such as new to tank, aggressive inhabitants, and infected with ich, I would think grabbing the least stressful method and using it would be most beneficial in saving the fish. I understand that most would not want to deal with equipment/cost/knowledge required to be able to handle several methods. I'm thinking out loud here. This may be an option for very expensive fish, also.

[Spar]

We are all saying the same thing, but I would classify like this:
-Hypo - least stressful (considering the points above about going back up on SG requiring care), but increased risk of QT objective failure [e.g. riding Ich]
-TT - low stress, high success rate of QT objective
-Copper - higher stress and higher risk of fish death (depending on species), high success rate of QT objective

Hence why TT is being talked up so much. Almost a guarantee of success and still provides a low stress environment.

There are stickies on TT that talk through all the points, but it is extremely easy to administer. Just need two 10 or 20g tanks (or even just a 5g Home Depot bucket really), and two sets of supplies (air tubing/stone and heater at minimum); and every 3 days (as close to exactly to 72 hours apart as possible) in the morning you swap everything out with the fish, bringing as little water over from tank A to tank B as possible. Clean off the prior used equipment/tank and let dry in the mean time. Do this 4 times, and done!

[kneedeep]

So is TT good for anything other than Ich? Or is copper the only method that works on multiple disease/parasites?

[snorvich]

So is TT good for anything other than Ich? Or is copper the only method that works on multiple disease/parasites?

Tank Transfer is designed around the life cycle of ich. It is excellent for that purpose but will not work with other parasites.

[tmz]

Tank transfer is only desingned for crytocaryon irritans which is the most common plague. It is an excellent way to provide a low stress environment and preventative treatment for new fish. It also offers and opportunity for observation and sg acclimation. It takes a little work but is relatively easy to manage. It can be followed by an observation in a cylced qt tank for a longer observation period and treatment of other diseases that may emerge.
There is plenty of good information on it and other diseases and methods on it in the fish disease forum .
This thread of mine from my local forum may also be of interest:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2185929&highlight=fish+acclimation+and+quarantine

[sk8ter20art]

So if you you were running your own lfs. How would you run it to be pro-active for fish health. I have been to stores that had a large plumbed together fish only setups running low sg but not true hypo. And been to smaller stores that had small tanks and just used medicine with copper.

[tmz]

I don't run an lfs. Volume and transience of large numbers of fish is much more difficult to manage than my 8 tanks. I take in only a few fish at a time and don't rely on any lfs or shipper to provide disease free fish. When I can, I order fish through my local lfs's and arrange to pick them up in the shipping bag to avoid exposure to other fish in those systems. I will on occasion pick a fish from the selling tanks, if it appears completely healthy and is eating well but then take it home and treat it with tank transfer and qt.

I think lower sg levels can slow ich down and mask it without eradicating it . Keeping it low in an lfs makes it easier to acclimate newly shipped fish which are usually shipped in low sg bag water though. I think preventative copper treatments at less than lethal levels are not very helpful and may do harm over time. I'd probably run at least several independent set ups to allow some segregation and rotation of newly arrived fish ;that might be very difficult to do with high volume .

[nicholasb]

Fish drink fresh water, so it is easier for them to drink.

[sleepydoc]

Agree with many of the posts above, but I find it interesting that we are debating 'stress' in fish when it's something we have a hard time defining and even harder time measuring in humans, much less fish.

The only way I know of to possibly measure stress level in fish is by observing behavior - eating, swimming patterns, breathing, etc. Far from precise. The fish I have treated with hypo acted completely normally. As did the last fish that I treated with cupramine. As did the last fish I treated with antibiotics. In contrast, they did not behave completely normally when I introduced them to the display tank. I guess I should take from this that moving a fish to a display tank is far more stressful than treating for disease.

Of course, I've seen fish with ich acting completely normally too, so I guess ich doesn't cause any stress either. Or maybe it does, but we just have no clue what stress is in fish.

[dread240]

I've done them all, and so far TT has seemed far superior to me then the other 2. I'm just simply using 2 5 gallon buckets, a tiny heater from petco and an air pump. After each transfer their existing bucket gets a fairly healthy dose of bleach for a day, then cleaned out and dried and refilled ready to accept them on the next round.

I've also been filling these buckets with water from my DT (which everything in there has been treated for ich and have never seen a sign of it) so the water parameters are very very consistent through the entire process

[tmz]

Stress is term easily misinterpreted. When it's used in hobby parlance it usually refers to physical strain on the affected organism( one of the dictionary definitions is:".. mental or physical tension or strain..." Many things can strain a fish physically(maybe some mentally but I wouldn't be able to guess on that score).Physical stressors would include ,for example : osmotic issues , trouble breathing from parasitic infections clogging and destroying the gills or oxygen depletion in the water, bleeding from parasites or aggressive tankmates, infected wounds, exhaustion from dashing around around to avoid aggression, an inability to eat from a broken mouth caused by diving into the glass when a leopard wrasse is trying to dive into the non existent sand it needs , internal worms ,no places to rest, poisoning from ammonia or other water pollutants and toxins,etc.

[DasCamel]

Agree with many of the posts above, but I find it interesting that we are debating 'stress' in fish when it's something we have a hard time defining and even harder time measuring in humans, much less fish.

The only way I know of to possibly measure stress level in fish is by observing behavior - eating, swimming patterns, breathing, etc. Far from precise. The fish I have treated with hypo acted completely normally. As did the last fish that I treated with cupramine. As did the last fish I treated with antibiotics. In contrast, they did not behave completely normally when I introduced them to the display tank. I guess I should take from this that moving a fish to a display tank is far more stressful than treating for disease.

Of course, I've seen fish with ich acting completely normally too, so I guess ich doesn't cause any stress either. Or maybe it does, but we just have no clue what stress is in fish.

In the end all the methods can "stressful", more about the execution and knowing what to look for.

TT, which I've been doing for three weeks and getting really good at is working great the 2nd go around once the process got streamlined and the proper equipment got ordered.

It really depends on means and methods. Sean, whatever you chose, just do it well. I'm trying to minimize the crap the fish get exposed to. TT + Pazri + observation as needed.

[SS_Sean]

Sean, whatever you chose, just do it well.

:thumbsup:

[crissie]

All of the methods have their pros and cons. Personally I wouldn't recommend hypo-salinity purely because it is very easy to mess up, which could be potentially fatal for your fish.

Tank transfer, IMO, is the most fail-safe way of doing it. In so far as you can't really go too far wrong.