Source of phosphate found.

[pscott99]

Rubbermaid garbage bins are bad !! After three years of fighting PO4 for some reason I decided to test my RO water in my green 26 gallon bin. Bin one where I make it tested .16. I just about died. Bin two where I store it tested .18. RODI at source exit tube tested 0.0 and 0.03. I went shopping immediately for food grade bins. The white 50 gallon bin shown here was from a fertilizer supply company. Cost Cd $ 110, has nice see through plastic and 10 gallon marks with a top and a drain to plumb if you want. First test of new RODI 50 gallons was .04. Other than kicking myself I feel much better. Worth every penny.
Lesson learned if you can't beat PO4 test your RODI water. It should be near 0 at source and in your storage bins.

[nicholasb]

Good advice!!.

[FullBoreReefer]

Not all are bad...

[bif24701]

i never had a problem

[mayjong]

i wonder if there could be organics decaying in some?
i know if i filled any bin of any type (glass, plastic, etc)with rodi water, eventually there would be bacteria and other organics . if you leave water ina food grade container eventually it will go bad, too....
enough to be putrid........
just thinking out loud

[bertoni]

I tend to think that the Brute containers are fine, and that organics are getting into the water in some way, if the phosphate levels are correct, but it's hard to know what's happening.

[tmz]

I agree withJon andthe others , I use several of them and have for years without any PO4 issues or other issues for that matter.

[Reefvet]

I tend to think that the Brute containers are fine, and that organics are getting into the water in some way, if the phosphate levels are correct, but it's hard to know what's happening.

Except that not all Brutes are made in the same plant and from the same plastic. They used to be, but not anymore.

I have 2 that are about 10 years old and don't leach anything. I just bought a new one and it leaches phosphates.

[captjab]

I noticed that you said your green Rubbermaid can. I may be totally wrong, but I believe most people in the hobby use the gray Rubbermaid cans. I've always heard that they were food grade and didn't leach anything harmful. Is it possible that the green ones are made out of a slightly different material?
On another note, your new storage tank looks first class.

[bertoni]

I'm surprised that a plastic product could leach phosphate. I'm just not sure why there would be phosphate in the container. I guess that this isn't a Brute, though, so it's hard to say. I might try cleaning it, to see whether it still leaches. There might be some sort of mold release on the surface.

[Buzz1329]

I've never tested for phosphates in new sw mixed in grey Rubbermaid Brute containers. But I do test for PO4 in DT serviced by Brute containers and do not find any. Nor do I find any algae on rocks or glass or in sump (other than a few pieces of bubble algae). So I'm not likely to switch mixing containers despite these periodic posts about PO4 in brute containers.

[captjab]

I've never had issues from the Brute containers either Mike. I was just stating that the original poster said that he was using a green Rubbermaid can, not the Brute container that the majority of reefers use. Maybe the can he's using is leaching something, but it seems like it would be done leaching after 3 years of use.

[incognitus]

I'm surprised that a plastic product could leach phosphate

Plastics can have phosphate to reduce its ability to burn (fire retardant additive), so it´s not so strange this happening.

[Rybren]

Here in Canada (where the OP is from) all Brutes that I have come across are labeled as NSF - food safe. The Rubbermaid Roughneck cans (green or blue-grey) are not labelled as such.

I've had my Roughnecks in use for ~5yrs and have not had an issue (then again I haven't tested for phosphates in the bins for a few years.)

[pscott99]

A Brute container as well as what I bought are a very hard plastic. Rubbermaid much softer pliable. Just a fact. Since the water tests at zero tds and is completely emptied each use I can't figure where that much PO4 would come in. I do admit to not cleaning them out because they were never "dirty". I will continue to test my new bin.

[Ajskennels]

i believe the green brute is made of recycled materials, no telling whats in it. i use the gray brute without any po4 problems

[bertoni]

Plastics can have phosphate to reduce its ability to burn (fire retardant additive), so it´s not so strange this happening.
I didn't know that. Thanks! I'll have to look into this more.

[critteral]

I use black 55 gal barrels that contained sugar solution. never had an issue and just decided to check the water in them today. I was shocked to find that I am getting a reading of .17. I have not checked them in years, and it has always been 0. Do you think that over time these things are degrading somehow and releasing phosphates?

[caleb bruyn]

I have noticed that if I mix salt water in them and leave it in the brute container for a couple of days the container develops a film on it. When I empty them I have to wipe out the film which is a light brown color. I assumed it was from the salt being corrosive. I wonder if that could make the container leach phosphate.

[pscott99]

To your question I say yes - and I think your data speaks for itself. But really I am not surprised to find that phosphates (or other chemicals) can leach from those containers. I know in the rubber industry, in a manufactured part, the rubber is usually the most expensive component . The manufacturer adds whatever filler it can to reduce the cost. And a rubber part contains many ingredients (organic and inorganic). Popular fillers are inorganic clays for non-black parts, which probably contain phosphates. For black parts carbon black is used. Furthermore, when rubber is manufactured there is often a buffer used to control pH. A popular choice is potassium phosphate. It is supposed to be washed out during the cleaning/drying process but I'm sure some remains behind.

We sell a product into the food packaging industry and I know the standards are quite stringent for having very low extractables. Going with a food grade container sounds like a smart way to go.

[critteral]

Sounds like I am in the market for new barrels. So based on what you are saying, the white barrels would be a better choice?

[Reef Junky]

I have been using a rubber made for 7 years and from start to Finnish each water change takes 3days. First day I fill. Test and second day mix salt. Once salinity is correct I leave heater and circ pump in over night and third day change.I leave it outside upside down to dry and put away in closet next to my tank. Never had a po4 problem. Could it be because people are storing water for periods of time in said containers?

[disc1]

I just don't understand what kind of alchemy is spontaneously producing phosphorus. There's none in the plastic itself so where are you saying it comes from? It has to be coming in from somewhere.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Even if you have a properly washed trash can that leaches a little phosphate into water change or top off water, it is a minor contributor relative to foods.

I show it here:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry

from it:

What about other sources of phosphate, like the "crappy" RO/DI water containing 0.05 ppm phosphate? A similar analysis will show it equally unimportant relative to foods.

Let's assume that the aquarist in question adds 1% of the total tank volume each day with RO/DI to replace evaporation. Simple math shows that the 0.05 ppm in the RO/DI becomes 0.0005 ppm added each day to the phosphate concentration in the aquarium. That dilution step is critical, taking a scary number like 0.05 ppm down to an almost meaningless 0.0005 ppm daily addition. Since that 0.0005 ppm is 40-600 times lower than the amount added each day in foods (Table 4), it does not seem worthy of the angst many aquarists put on such measurements. That said, tap water could have as much as 5 ppm phosphate, and that value could then become a dominating source of phosphate and would be quite problematic. Purifying tap water is important for this and many other reasons.

[pscott99]

You put it in perspective beautifully. This, combined with the guess the phosphate thread currently going, have really calmed me down. It will also save me some GFO costs ! Your patience with our paranoia is very helpfull.

:beer:

[DasCamel]

Even if you have a properly washed trash can that leaches a little phosphate into water change or top off water, it is a minor contributor relative to foods.

I show it here:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry

from it:

What about other sources of phosphate, like the "crappy" RO/DI water containing 0.05 ppm phosphate? A similar analysis will show it equally unimportant relative to foods.

Let's assume that the aquarist in question adds 1% of the total tank volume each day with RO/DI to replace evaporation. Simple math shows that the 0.05 ppm in the RO/DI becomes 0.0005 ppm added each day to the phosphate concentration in the aquarium. That dilution step is critical, taking a scary number like 0.05 ppm down to an almost meaningless 0.0005 ppm daily addition. Since that 0.0005 ppm is 40-600 times lower than the amount added each day in foods (Table 4), it does not seem worthy of the angst many aquarists put on such measurements. That said, tap water could have as much as 5 ppm phosphate, and that value could then become a dominating source of phosphate and would be quite problematic. Purifying tap water is important for this and many other reasons.

Phosphate paranoia from plastics in this hobby is hilarious. In society in general.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you Randy

You're welcome. :)

[bmanzie]

I have been told that you can't accurately test for P04 in RODI water.

[bertoni]

A phosphate kit that is rated for fresh water should be fine for RO/DI water. The Hanna Phosphate Checker should be okay, for example, as are most of the kits I've seen. The Hanna ULR Phosphorus Checker is rated only for saltwater by the manufacturer.

[boxfishpooalot]

Eric borneman seems to think it leeches toxic plasticizers that kill coral embryos.

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic101230-9-1.aspx

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There's a lot of nonsense in that thread from uninformed people. Polyethylene is not plasticized, for example. Eric doesn't even say if he rinsed out the barrrell. In my home Depot, there's all kinds of crap in them, from bird poop to leaking fertilizer and weed killer bags nearby.

[pscott99]

A phosphate kit that is rated for fresh water should be fine for RO/DI water. The Hanna Phosphate Checker should be okay, for example, as are most of the kits I've seen. The Hanna ULR Phosphorus Checker is rated only for saltwater by the manufacturer.

For reference I used the Hanna Phosphate Checker. After reading Randy's piece I realized the dilution factor makes the numbers mute. I am really happy with the new bins and their 50 gal size. I don't think everyone needs to run out and buy new bins anymore though.

[tmz]

Much ado about nothing,imo. I've used brute cans ,rubbermaid, sterlite and a variety of other containers in my systems for years without issues. I do wipe them with vinegar and rinse them well before use .