Question about # of plugs in a fish room

[Gunsnroses]

Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but here it goes. When I built my fish room, I ran a dedicated 20 amp circuit with 12/2 wire and put it on a GFI. I ran four double gang boxes which gives me 16 outlets. I was told by, someone who does electrical for a living, that I should only have 8 outlets on my circuit. 12 at the absolute most. I have 16 and I actually need 17 to plug in everything I need to.
Now, figuring in how many watts my equipment is rated to pull at 100% power is around 1500 watts.

So my question is, if I am only pulling 1500 watts on a 20 amp circuit, does it really matter how many things are plugged in or how many receptacles I have?

[mcgyvr]

There is no restriction in the NEC on the number of outlets for residential applications.

[SGT_York]

NEC does not list a maximum number of outlets as load capacity is the driving factor, but you can calculate the maximum number for residential units, which if you do the math is 10 or 13 for 15V and 20V. See the math 120 volts x 20 amperes = 2400 VA/180 VA = 13 receptacles.

Any electrician or intelligent human being will tell you that you should install a second circuit. at 1500 watts /110 /20 you are at 70% of your load capacity, that doesn't include motor start draws and variations. You can expect significant circuit trips at around 75-80% of the load.

Get a second circuit.

So for code you should add a second circuit but more importantly what happens when one trips, all of your power is down, if you run two now only half of your power is down so you can keep your powerheads separate from your return pump and still keep a happy tank.

[billdogg]

I don't have a clue about what code is where you live, but that seems like a huge number of things to plug into one circuit, even if it is 20A. If you really have that many things to plug in I would even consider running 2 more 20A lines - it certainly isn't much more work if your breaker panel has the room.

For mine, I ran 2 x 20a lines, both split to 2 separate GFCI outlets for a total of 4 GFCI lines. Those each have 3 more outlets wired downstream. Everything is split so that even if 3 of the 4 GFCI's trip, there will still be some heat and some circulation.

Why put all your eggs in the same basket?

[SGT_York]

2009-2014 all have the same requirements for residential power draw (nonspecific branch lines, like refrigerator and such) Where you live doesn't matter.

[Gunsnroses]

Well this ruins my weekend.
It will be a pain to add another line cause I ran all the wires in the wall before I drywall everything in. My GFI is first in line and everything else runs inline from that plug. So there is no way to tie into those other receptacles without ripping all the drywall back down. And that is not an option with tank up and running.

[uncleof6]

Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but here it goes. When I built my fish room, I ran a dedicated 20 amp circuit with 12/2 wire and put it on a GFI. I ran four double gang boxes which gives me 16 outlets. I was told by, someone who does electrical for a living, that I should only have 8 outlets on my circuit. 12 at the absolute most. I have 16 and I actually need 17 to plug in everything I need to.
Now, figuring in how many watts my equipment is rated to pull at 100% power is around 1500 watts.

So my question is, if I am only pulling 1500 watts on a 20 amp circuit, does it really matter how many things are plugged in or how many receptacles I have?

NEC does not limit the number of outlets, (recepticles,) for any reason, in a residential occupancy. The rational for this, is it is not expected that all the outlets will be used simultaneously, for an extended period of time. Generally only one or two at a time. (I expect it won't be too much longer before this changes.) Still, most professionals apply a little commercial code here, in that it is not smart to run a circuit loaded above 80% of the circuit rating. One of the reasons for this, is most breakers are not rated for 100% continuous.

Since you are utilizing ALL of the recepticles on the branch circuit, the first consideration is what is the continuous load, and next, the in-rush current for your inductive loads, which in your installation, can easily exceed the circuit rating.

80% for a 20 amp circuit is 1920VA continuous. So figuring 180VA per outlet, max number is 13. An inspector walks in, (you did pull a permit for this, I assume, otherwise the installation is illegal to begin with) and freaks out when counting 16 outlets. (It has and does happen.) Ask him to show you the code, and since there isn't one (unless it is in a local building or fire code, or at the State level) your installation will pass eventually.

Many contractors (C10) I know, including myself, won't put more than 10 outlets on a branch circuit. The rational is: don't max anything out, as it leaves room for additions, although depending on the occupancy, I don't have an issue with putting 13 on a branch circuit.

Your 1500 "watts," continuous, is under 80% of the circuit rating, (70% came out of someones back pocket) of 1920VA. Without knowing the locked rotor current for the motors in your system, or the particulars on the lighting, I am not sure I would want inductive loads this circuit, and if your motors are much more than the common wind up toys used for aquaium pumps, I would not put them on this circuit.

I think this is a misuse of the GFCI breaker, and you would be better off to change that to a regular breaker, with 2 or more independent GFCI recepticles for this installation, rather than running a second circuit for that reason. Motors may be a good reason to run a second circuit, however. AC motors, GFCIs, and inductive loads are out of the scope of this thread.

Since your outlet boxex/devices are most likely attached to the structure, if you did not pull a permit, and have it inspected, you need to get with some licensed professionals/inspectors, so you don't need to ask questions like this, on a fish forum. ;) The rules vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and there really is no way to keep it all straight.

[SGT_York]

70% is 1500/110volts/20amps. Not backpocket, although the 1500 may be. =68.18%

1920VA is 120Volts which is fine as well, I like to err conservatively as I'm on a rural Arkansas power grid.

[uncleof6]

70% is 1500/110volts/20amps. Not backpocket, although the 1500 may be. =68.18%

1920VA is 120Volts which is fine as well, I like to err conservatively as I'm on a rural Arkansas power grid.

I should have been more specific, as there is nothing wrong with your math.

You can expect significant circuit trips at around 75-80% of the loadI have not found this to be true at all, nor a reason to run a second circuit. However I expressed concerns with the inductive loads, locked rotor current etc.

[Gunsnroses]

To address the main elephant in the room, no I did not pull a permit for the electrical.
As for theequipment used, here is a run down of what I will have once everything is set up and running.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Tank:
Reef Octopus 10500 main pump.-- 85 watts
Reef Octopus 200 skimmer w/ R.O. 5500 pump.-- 50 watts
Pair of Jebao WP40's for flow.-- 80 watts
Pair of Jager 300 watt heaters. -- 600 watts
Lighting will either be a ATI T5 8 bulb -- 432 watts or
4 Kessil Pendant lights -- 344 watts

Total: around 1247 watts
------------------------------------------------------------------
Water Changing station:
Panworld 40-- 45 watts
200 Watt Heater-- 200 watts
Maxijet 1200 Power Head-- 20 watts

Total: around 260 watts
------------------------------------------------------------------
Refugium/Manifold
Reef Octopus 5500 pump.-- 50 watts
Lighting -- 20 watts

Total: around 70 watts
------------------------------------------------------------------
Quarantine tank:

Aqua Clear Filter-- 14 watts
Jager 150 watt heater-- 150 watts
Led Light strip-- 18 watts
Maxijet 400 -- 5 watts

Total: around 185 watts

------------------------------------------------------------------
Total watts in the system if everything was running at once
1789 watts

[mcgyvr]

Well this ruins my weekend.
It will be a pain to add another line cause I ran all the wires in the wall before I drywall everything in. My GFI is first in line and everything else runs inline from that plug. So there is no way to tie into those other receptacles without ripping all the drywall back down. And that is not an option with tank up and running.

You don't have to do anything.. you ARE compliant with code.. (or should I say the number of outlets you have is not an infraction... because who knows what else you might have done:) )

there is no code requiring it nor any reason to limit the number of outlets as the protection from overloading is provided by the breaker.
Electricians sometimes pose a limit only because thats what they were taught to do.

and most breakers themselves are rated to 100% BUT confusion has run rampant because of how certain requirements in NEC are worded/comprehended and has just become an accepted derating factor for "safety".

[Gunsnroses]

Here is my basic wiring and receptacle placement right now.

[Gunsnroses]

I could do this with little drywall destruction.
Split the circuit at the Lighting box. Add a 20 amp line with a GFI to one side and feed the other two boxes from that.
Use my original 20 amp line to feed the other outlet in my Lighting box and add another box below my stand to separate my pumps and heaters.
Could this work?

[mcgyvr]

Here is my basic wiring and receptacle placement right now.

yep..still fine

[uncleof6]

To address the main elephant in the room, no I did not pull a permit for the electrical.
As for theequipment used, here is a run down of what I will have once everything is set up and running.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Tank:
Reef Octopus 10500 main pump.-- 85 watts
Reef Octopus 200 skimmer w/ R.O. 5500 pump.-- 50 watts
Pair of Jebao WP40's for flow.-- 80 watts
Pair of Jager 300 watt heaters. -- 600 watts
Lighting will either be a ATI T5 8 bulb -- 432 watts or
4 Kessil Pendant lights -- 344 watts

Total: around 1247 watts
------------------------------------------------------------------
Water Changing station:
Panworld 40-- 45 watts
200 Watt Heater-- 200 watts
Maxijet 1200 Power Head-- 20 watts

Total: around 260 watts
------------------------------------------------------------------
Refugium/Manifold
Reef Octopus 5500 pump.-- 50 watts
Lighting -- 20 watts

Total: around 70 watts
------------------------------------------------------------------
Quarantine tank:

Aqua Clear Filter-- 14 watts
Jager 150 watt heater-- 150 watts
Led Light strip-- 18 watts
Maxijet 400 -- 5 watts

Total: around 185 watts

------------------------------------------------------------------
Total watts in the system if everything was running at once
1789 watts

I am tempeted to ask, is the breaker tripping? If not, nothing serious going on. Breaker trip is current/time related. You are well within "continuous load" practices, only thing I am looking at is the inductive loads. If all the motors and lights, e.g. everything came on at once, I suspect the circuit would go down, not really a good plan obviously. It may not however. But that really has less to do with the "number of outlets" and continuous load, and more to do with the types of loads. (I am not going to do motor calcs, and would need namplate ratings, pf, etc. anyway.)

I am not criticizing (for once perhaps ;) ) your installation, save for the use of a GFCI breaker, but because codes are involved, pointing out how the law views it. (important if something goes way south.)

[Gunsnroses]

I am tempeted to ask, is the breaker tripping? If not, nothing serious going on. Breaker trip is current/time related. You are well within "continuous load" practices, only thing I am looking at is the inductive loads. If all the motors and lights, e.g. everything came on at once, I suspect the circuit would go down, not really a good plan obviously. It may not however. But that really has less to do with the "number of outlets" and continuous load, and more to do with the types of loads. (I am not going to do motor calcs, and would need namplate ratings, pf, etc. anyway.)

I am not criticizing (for once perhaps ;) ) your installation, save for the use of a GFCI breaker, but because codes are involved, pointing out how the law views it. (important if something goes way south.)

I do not have all this equipment up and running yet. So no breaker tripping.
But once I do have all the equipment on line, there is a chance that one day everything will be running at once.
Of course the main tank will be running 24/7.
And if I am quarantining fish and have an upcoming water change scheduled, then everything will be running at the same time.
So that could be an issue?
And also, if for some reason my power goes out,( storm rolls through, some guy texting and driving hits a utility pole,squirrel jumps in a substation) then when the power comes on, everything will kick in at once.
That could be an issue?

Also uncle, what do you have against GFI plugs?
I just thought that was a necessity around water.

[uncleof6]

I do not have all this equipment up and running yet. So no breaker tripping.
But once I do have all the equipment on line, there is a chance that one day everything will be running at once.
Of course the main tank will be running 24/7.
And if I am quarantining fish and have an upcoming water change scheduled, then everything will be running at the same time.
So that could be an issue?
And also, if for some reason my power goes out,( storm rolls through, some guy texting and driving hits a utility pole,squirrel jumps in a substation) then when the power comes on, everything will kick in at once.
That could be an issue?

Also uncle, what do you have against GFI plugs?
I just thought that was a necessity around water.

Everything coming on at once could be an issue, yes. The determining factor will be locked rotor (dead standstill/inrush) current for the motors, and the inrush for your lights.

Nothing against GFCIs, in the context of this thread anyway. I have some views on GFCIs and inductive loads, but that is irrelevant. I may have misunderstood that you are using a GFCI breaker in the main service panel, rather than GFCI recepticles.

[Gunsnroses]

Nothing against GFCIs, in the context of this thread anyway. I have some views on GFCIs and inductive loads, but that is irrelevant. I may have misunderstood that you are using a GFCI breaker in the main service panel, rather than GFCI recepticles.

I am not using a GFCI breaker, but the placement of my GFCI outlet was first in line on the circuit. So basically it would work the same. If I had a breaker and experienced an issue it would trip and the entire circuit goes down.
If the outlet tripped, the entire circuit goes down.
But every outlet I have, except for the lights, are below the water level of a water source. So I wanted everything protected. Just in case.
Even the lights could be a hazard if one fell in.

[Gunsnroses]

O.K. So last night I re-cut a hole in the drywall near my breaker panel and run a new 12-2 wire and added a new 20amp breaker.
Pulled that wire to my fishroom ceiling and put it in a junction box.
Cut two holes in my wall to access the wiring to my outlet boxes.
And drilled a new hole through my ceiling joist to feed the new 20amp line through.
So today I have to pick up 1 more GFCI outletl,two standard 15 amp outlets,2 gang outlet box and 25 more feet of 12-2 wire.

I'm just glad my drywall demo was small to get all this fished in.
Should have all this complete by the weekend.
Thank goodness.:bounce3:

[salty joe]

I am not using a GFCI breaker, but the placement of my GFCI outlet was first in line on the circuit. .

That's a fine plan in a kitchen, but for a fishroom perhaps using a GFI for every receptacle in parallel might be better. That way, each GFI acts independently-everything's protected and if a GFI trips it only takes out what's plugged into it.

[woodnaquanut]

,two standard 15 amp outlets


Is that a typo? I think if you have 20A wire and breaker you should have 20A outlets.

If that's not true, I'm sure the pros will comment!

[Gunsnroses]

I was told that 15 amp outlets were fine on a 20 amp circuit. I just could not plug anything into one single outlet that pulled more than 15 amps.
Please correct me if this is wrong.
I need more good news. ;)

[mcgyvr]

NEC 210.21 allows the use of multiple 15A receptacles on a 20A branch circuit.
any device that draws more than the 15A will have a different plug..

[woodnaquanut]

NEC 210.21 allows the use of multiple 15A receptacles on a 20A branch circuit.
any device that draws more than the 15A will have a different plug..

Thanks.

[Gunsnroses]

NEC 210.21 allows the use of multiple 15A receptacles on a 20A branch circuit.
any device that draws more than the 15A will have a different plug..

Thank goodness.

[Gunsnroses]

O.k. Wiring is done. Just have to patch up the drywall now.
Below is the new dual 20 amp circuit. I will be able to divide all my equipment except my main return pump(cause I only have one) and my display tank heaters(cause they are hooked to a Ranco temp. controller)
This gives me 18 outlets to use total.
Should be plenty. If not, I can add a power strip.
Thanks for everyone's help. I really appreciate it.:thumbsup:

[fng_71]

just throw in the towel and sell it all! what do you want for the kessils? lol
i'm glad i found this thread. i'm not far off from a similar project.