Bean Drain Question.

[Kona26]

I have just re done my drain system and am getting alot of bubbles coming out of my stand pipe.

3 1in bulk heads
emergency drain 1.25in necked down to a 1in into the bulk head (almost 1in below the water line)
main drain 1.25 necked down to a 1in into the bulk head (6in below the water line)
stand pipe 1in (about 2.5in below the water line)

going into the sump

3 1 3/4in rubber fitting going into 1.25 pipe all the way through. 2 ball valves for the main drain and the stand pipe.

return pump eco 1584 @ 1600gph. (not sure how to fig out how much flow I am getting into the tank....has to pump up about 5 ft in the first inlet then about 6ft straight across to the other inlet (1 in tubing used for the return. I do have a 3/4 in T I think spliting to the other inlet)

----please let me know what other info I need to give

----I can down flow the main drian to stop the bubbles from it but I get a massive amount of bubbles from the stand pipe drain. I have turned down the valve on the stand pipe drain and it will decrease the bubbles but when I plug the siphon hole it will not start to drain.

----Is it normal to have alot of bubbles coming out of this drain or Do I have it set up wrong.

thank you for the input

[mcgyvr]

you have it setup wrong..
You are missing the elbow on the main siphon line.. As such its sucking air down with it.

[Kona26]

I only get air bubbles when the valve is fully open on the main. If I close it alittle I don't get any bubbles out of the main. I can put an elbow. But the air bubbles are coming out of the stand pipe with the elbow on it now.

[mcgyvr]

your picture shows water flowing into the main only (assuming the main is the shorter one without the elbow)
Now I'm going to assume thats just because you have the main valve all the way open..
A BA system really does NOT need a valve on the open channel and only the main.
open valve needs to be fully open.. close the main till the water level rises enough.. Then let it sit for a while.. It can take some time to work residual air out of the pipes..

But if you are getting bubbles out of the open channel then the water level is not high enough to pull all water and is allowing air to be sucked in too.

Also having the pipes that low in the sump could be part of your problem too..
I recommend only 1/2" to 1" below the water level.

[Kona26]

yes the center drain in my main. and the valve on the that drain in not fully open. So the open channel .... the drain on the right (with the elbow). if i am correct. That valve is fully open. (that is where the bubbles are coming from. I can shorten the pipes in the sump. do I need an elbow on the main drain...? I do have water flowing in the open channel. The water lvl is just below my emergency drain.

[Kona26]

lol shoot sorry for the pic...I turned my pump off so I could get a pic of all the drains.

[Kona26]

with water

[Kona26]

I was thinking it may be taking in air from being so close to the drain wall. I can turn it the other way over the main drain...just not sure if that would be the best option

[SGT_York]

In the first pic the siphon valve is too open in the second it is too closed. A gate valve will be much easier to get it in between the two.

to reduce the bubbles in the open channel you need to reduce the flow It's mostly submerged so it will be loud and bubbly, reducing the water height an inch will solve that problem. See if you can use a wrench or long tool to only slightly move the ball valve. if not get the gate!

[jacksonpt]

In the first pic the siphon valve is too open in the second it is too closed. A gate valve will be much easier to get it in between the two.

to reduce the bubbles in the open channel you need to reduce the flow It's mostly submerged so it will be loud and bubbly, reducing the water height an inch will solve that problem. See if you can use a wrench or long tool to only slightly move the ball valve. if not get the gate!

Agreed. You want to adjust flow through the main such that flow through the open channel is as low/minimal as possible.

[mcgyvr]

I was thinking it may be taking in air from being so close to the drain wall. I can turn it the other way over the main drain...just not sure if that would be the best option

I concur doctor... :)
me thinks that might be the case too..
The better pictures really helped diagnose it..

[mcgyvr]

nm...

[Kona26]

so I have cut the drain pipes and I adjusted the valves so I have no more bubbles in the sump....My new problem is the water lvl in the over flow box is lower...causing noise from the water drop...(should I cut a longer main drain pipe to bring up the water lvl..?)

[Kona26]

the pics where taken at diff times...thats why the valves are diff.

[Kona26]

I adjusted the flow through the main siphon so I just have min water flowing through the open channel.

[SGT_York]

You want the water level set my the height in the open channel, add some height to that standpipe to set the water level where you want it. The siphon line will change a bit but not significantly due to the increase in height/pressure.

The height of the siphon line won't make a difference (not like you mentioned) in overflow water height.

[Lsufan]

+1 , raise open channel pipe in overflow box

[Kona26]

would it work the same if I rotated the 90 and faced it up wards..?

[Kona26]

I raised it and MY new problem is that the water is going into my emergency drain. I am thinking about putting a ball valve on my return pump to get my flow down. I tryed to raise the emergency drain ...but when I did my test to see if it would take all the water...it almost over flowed my tank. So would a ball valve on the return pump let me drop the water lvl in the tank but still be able to raise and low the water lvl in the over flow box..?

[uncleof6]

I raised it and MY new problem is that the water is going into my emergency drain. I am thinking about putting a ball valve on my return pump to get my flow down. I tryed to raise the emergency drain ...but when I did my test to see if it would take all the water...it almost over flowed my tank. So would a ball valve on the return pump let me drop the water lvl in the tank but still be able to raise and low the water lvl in the over flow box..?


I been sitting here for around an hour composing a post that would not trample anyones toes, but this is exactly where I was going. You lost the clearence to your dry emergency. Raising the open channel is not the solution to this. It is not really a solution to any of the problems associated with this drain system... You have to raise all three of them, to maintain the relationship between the levels, which because you are not using elbows was not very good to begin with.

What you need to do, is get out your ruler, or other measuring devices, and find out what kind of room you have. e.g. how far below the top of the tank is the weir, I run these systems (250 of them) 1" below, with the water level in the overflow ~an inch below that. Inlet to the dry emergency should be around the top of the weir, a little lower is better. The elbows provide the proper relationships, with all pipes at the same level, with the dry emergency elbow upturned. I know you have a space problem in that small overflow, but tees and elbows can be used temporarily, to get the system set up right.

Basically, I think your system is set up "whacky," (no offense) was way out of adjustment to begin with, aside from the pipes being too deep in the sump, and things need to be redone and readjusted. The 1" siphon is capable of draining way more than your pump can send up to the tank, so any flow issues are setup issues that need to be corrected.

Incidentally, if you use a wrench to adjust your ball valve, I am going to come over and take the wrench and the valve away from you, and have Sister Mary Elephant smack your hands with a ruler...that has to be in the top ten worst recommendations I have ever read...

[Kona26]

K so the fins from the over flow box almost touch the bottom of the top of the tank ...if you understand what I am trying to stay....the cut outs in the over flow box (fins) are 1.5in
--sorry I am not sure what all the parts are called

the main drain is 6 in below the top of the fins
the emergency drain is just above the bottom of the fins
and the open channel is about .5 in under the bottom of the fins.

so what are you talking about when you say weir..? is that top of the over flow box or is it the bottom of the fins..?

[Kona26]

non taken...I have been trying to find some pic of this kind of set up and the only ones I can find are the ones with the drains drilled out of the back of the tank not the bottom

[Kona26]

so right now I put a ball valve on the pump to slow down the flow....I do not want to do this but right now there is no noise and no bubbles in my sump...the water lvl is almost 1 in from the top of the tank....with the ball valve off the water is about 3/8 in to the top of the tank. So what I am think is make center drain emergency and have it at the top of the fins....the main drain on the left side 6 in under the water line and the open channel 1.5 in under the water line. Both with elbows. all 1 in pipe...the pipe under the tank is 1.25 in.

[Kona26]

sorry for all the back an forth...I have been fighting this for along time...and just want it to work right. it has either never been quiet or will not handle the flow. But your saying 1in pipe can handle over 1600gph...? That is what the side of my pump says it puts out. but i shut both the valves for the main and open channel and the emergency seems like it can't keep up. the emergency is a 1.25 in necked down to a 1in at the bulk head

[uncleof6]

K so the fins from the over flow box almost touch the bottom of the top of the tank ...if you understand what I am trying to stay....the cut outs in the over flow box (fins) are 1.5in
--sorry I am not sure what all the parts are called

the main drain is 6 in below the top of the fins
the emergency drain is just above the bottom of the fins
and the open channel is about .5 in under the bottom of the fins.

so what are you talking about when you say weir..? is that top of the over flow box or is it the bottom of the fins..?

In this case, the weir (the part the water actually flows over) is the bottom of the fins (teeth.) Teeth, make overflows loud, but do not really do anything else, other than reduce the effective overflow length and the skimming efficiency.

The point of reference for the top of the weir, would be the bottom of the trim on the outside of the tank. This is ~1" from the actual top of the tank (the glass,) This puts the tank water level above the bottom of the trim (hiding the water line.) Water level in the overflow 1" - ~ 1.5" down from there, depending on your comfort zone. Top of the "imaginary" downturned elbow on the siphon, AND the downturned elbow for the open channel is where the water level will be when the system is adjusted properly.

Later tonight, I will put up an image of through the bottom standpipes... it is a drawing, but will give you the general idea....There is really isn't a difference between going out the back and going through the bottom. Just takes a bit more finesse to get it all together.

[Kona26]

so you saying the main drain and the open channel are lvl with each other...and the water lvl should be at the top of the elbow..? if so I have it all wrong. I talked to a few other people on here and they said the main drain 6in below the water line with no elbow would be fine. ...I would love to see your drawing so I can finally bring this to an end. other question..dose it matter that I have 1.25in pipe going into my sump..?

[uncleof6]

http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/uncleof6/Capture_zpsfaa9aa6b.pngThis is the general idea. There are a lot of "conceptual interpretations" of Bean's design, based on the fractured design of the "herbie." Sometimes this works out, sometimes not. You will have to tweak the angles to get everything to fit in the overflow, but that does not really matter in terms of operation. What is worth looking at is the relationship between the "drop-offs" (weir) inside the elbows.

Start the system wide open, don't worry the drain will handle it, after it settles in, sneak the water level up with the valve on the siphon, till water just flows in the open channel. With the 1.25" open channel, this water level may be a little bit lower , than it would be with all 1.25" inside the overflow, (difference in height of the drop off inside the elbows.) Make darn sure that the inlet to the air vent line in the open channel is ABOVE (higher) than the inlet to the dry emergency, or you will be back to the same problem you had before...Once you get the thing dialed in, if you find the lack of room in the overflow to be a problem, then you can experiment with elbows, no elbows, pipes 6" below the water surface, what have you, because you will know how to get it back right.

The teeth will keep the overflow from being silent, not much can be done about that, save for removing the teeth, or rebuilding the overflow.

There is a method to the madness of this drain system, and it is not friendly to modifying it from the original design, and it is not best suited to small or corner overflows. There is no reason a straight pipe will not work, but there is a bit of guess work involved. Just because someone said 6" below the water surface, is not a good reason to do it. Absolutely no room for the elbows in the overflow is, and then perhaps, since the overflow is too small, herbie would perhaps be a better solution.

[Kona26]

I want to start off by saying...Thank you for the drawing and info.

I should be able to make this happen...a couple questions....can I do this set up with 1in pipe...I have 1in bulk heads. dose have a 1.25in pipe necked down to 1in at the bulk head help with flow...(that is how I have it set up now)..Dose having 1.25in pipe under the tank going into the sump affect this set up..(that is what I have now)

on the pic you have looks to me like the center is the siphon left is open channel and right is emergency drain..? If the center is the siphon it looks like you have the elbow about 1in lower then the open channel. The emergency looks to be at the top of the wier. (top of the teeth) ? or just slightly below.

[SGT_York]

My apologies on the wrench comment it was intended to be used as a lever to adjust the ball valve within it's open and closed range. I often assume people are intelligent using a wrench to close a valve is idiotic and will break it. Please use some common sense.

[uncleof6]

I want to start off by saying...Thank you for the drawing and info.

I should be able to make this happen...a couple questions....can I do this set up with 1in pipe...I have 1in bulk heads. dose have a 1.25in pipe necked down to 1in at the bulk head help with flow...(that is how I have it set up now)..Dose having 1.25in pipe under the tank going into the sump affect this set up..(that is what I have now)

on the pic you have looks to me like the center is the siphon left is open channel and right is emergency drain..? If the center is the siphon it looks like you have the elbow about 1in lower then the open channel. The emergency looks to be at the top of the wier. (top of the teeth) ? or just slightly below.

Center is open channel, (1.25") left is siphon, (1".) It does not need to be in this order...it matters little where which pipe is located.

1.25" pipe helps with flow capacity, as the friction loss in 1.25" is going to be less than in 1".

The elbows only do one thing: prevent a vortex from forming. They do not affect the height. Where the water drops off inside the tee, is what sets the height. There is a height difference between the open channel and the siphon (see dotted lines below) that is ~ 3/16", with the open channel the lower. (I used your pipe sizes.) It is slight, but could affect the system as water will flow sooner in the open channel. Easy cure is make all the pipe sizes the same, as originally designed. Or you could lower the siphon a bit. This of course would lower the water level in the overflow an ~equal amount.

Again, the point of reference is the "weir" of the overflow. The teeth are above the weir. So your effective overflow length consists of the channels between the teeth, and the height does not include the teeth. The teeth make the water pile up, and channel which creates noise and an ineffective overflow. (surface skimming and flow capacity.) Current conventional wisdom on overflow design does not include teeth, rather a flat weir. As long as folks think teeth will keep critters out of their overflow, the manufacturers will continue to produce them, and tell you that you need them. In terms of the dry emergency inlet, you want the inlet above the normal running water level in the overflow. The difference in turning the elbow up rather than down, works fine, in relation to the other standpipes.

http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/uncleof6/Capture_zps5fbd672c.png

[Kona26]

to help with room do you think I would have the same results if I were to cut the T down a little..? Or do I need the length

[Kona26]

I have room for 2 elbows and 1 either straight pipe or a T connected to it. I would want the elbows on the siphon and the emergency right..? and I could use a T on the open channel. Or would it be better to have a elbow on the open channel. I would assume the siphon would give you more a vortex then the open channel causing noise...but with just water falling in the open channel that would also make noise...in a perfect world I would try and put a elbow on all 3....I am going to try...I am also going to make all 1in pipe to help with room....I think I where to cut down the connecting sections of the joints I might have enough room...unless this would compromise the drain system

[uncleof6]

push comes to shove, use the straight pipe for the dry emergency...also consider street ells, which take up less room.