Who's has high Trates and still keep colors?

[Johnjohn713]

I'm losing colors on my sticks yet all the Params are within acceptable range. Only thing I could think of is my Nitrates which sits @ 10 ppm. Below are my numbers. Please advise. Many thanks!

Alk 8 Dhk
Ca 420ppm
Po4 .04
SG .026
6x54watt T5HO

[jda]

P04 is typically too high for awesome colors as well. .01, or lower is what most tend to shoot for.

[Johnjohn713]

Just tested again Po4 is .027 via Hanna's egg :)

[Nace]

I actually get better colors in the .02-.04 range with Po4.

When you say losing colors are they getting pail or are they turning brown?

[moray23]

It seems my colors and growth take a hit if nitrates get over 5.

[Johnjohn713]

I actually get better colors in the .02-.04 range with Po4.

When you say losing colors are they getting pail or are they turning brown?

Unfortunately ....both :bounce3:

[ssscuz]

Stability is the key, have bought down phosphate rapidly lately?
Or had an alk change?

As for nitrate, I have found 2ppm about the limit before I see colour loss. Well browning of certain corals

[Johnjohn713]

Alk is rock solid like the Grand Canyon. I think it could be my trates.

[Nace]

As long as all the parameters are staying steady without any major shifts I would up my water changes to work on Nitrates. Just make sure you don't cause any major swings by going too aggressive.

The fact that you have SPS both browning and getting pale is a different twist for me. Are the browning ones located differently than the ones getting pale?

[Johnjohn713]

No everything is exactly the same through out-location,flow, light etc. i know i have enough nutrient cuz i get algae on my glass in 2 days.

Doing weekly WC of about 10-20 gals on a 100 total vol of water system.
Only thing i matched are temp, salinity and alk before i do wc.

[Mark SF]

No everything is exactly the same through out-location,flow, light etc. i know i have enough nutrient cuz i get algae on my glass in 2 days.

Doing weekly WC of about 10-20 gals on a 100 total vol of water system.
Only thing i matched are temp, salinity and alk before i do wc.

I have had similar issues with corals browning and become pale all at the same time. Not exactly occurring AT the same time, but I have corals that are doing both.

For me, it was low nutrients that was causing the problems. As nutrient levels began to rise from 0 phosphate and 0 nitrate, colors began to improve with the pale corals but I still have an A.Aspera (brown) that refuses to color up.

Btw, even with numerous test kits all reporting 0's, I still had algae growth on the glass.

-Mark

[Spar]

Just tested again Po4 is .027 via Hanna's egg :)

your Hanna goes out 3 decimals? mine only goes out 2. that said, i got poor color when PO4 was <=.02; now that I have it at .05, color has started to get much better.

can't speak to NO3 as mine stays really low, prob <2ppm.

[Reefvet]

I work to keep phosphates at .02 -.05 and nitrates at 2 ppm or I see slower growth. I never have lost color but I'm using NSW and do a 20% weekly water change.

[Johnjohn713]

your Hanna goes out 3 decimals? mine only goes out 2. that said, i got poor color when PO4 was <=.02; now that I have it at .05, color has started to get much better.

can't speak to NO3 as mine stays really low, prob <2ppm.


I have an URL Hanna Phosphorous where you'd have to do a conversion to get a low reading.

I'm gonna have to lower my trates so it seems.

[shlap]

I stopped worrying about nitrates when I found out that WorldWideCorals nitrates are always about 20. My nitrates hover between 15-30 and I get really deep color out of everything. I also haven't changed my water for about 2 months. I know, it defies all that we've learned but as long as everything continues to look good, I'm not going to rush to clean up my water :-)

P04 is between .04-.06.

I'm using 3 Hydra 52s with all colors at 100% except whites (75%) for 5 hrs a day.

[Johnjohn713]

Man I don't know anymore. We're all been told high nitrate &po4 are not very helpful when it comes to colors but these days I keep hearing/seeing nice tank with off the chart phosphate .1+ and nitrate anywhere from 10-20ppm...sigh

[shlap]

Yeah.. your params all look fine. Some other things to check:

Salinity -- if you haven't already, use another method to measure your salinity.
Bulbs? -- maybe the bulbs could use replacing. Have you ever measured your PAR?
Fish -- Could you use some more? I have a really messy blue tang and moorish idol that crap whenever they see a bubble. The acros love the crap.
Light intensity/spectrum -- How long do you keep all T5s on? Which lights do you use?
Carbon -- if you're not running it, definitely do; removes anything bad that might be in the water

Maybe iodine or strontium deficiency but if you're doing water changes once in awhile you should be good.

Or maybe you're right and you just need to drop the nitrates. There's some weird chemistry going on in our tanks and what works for one reefer doesn't always work for others (dirty water) . Good luck John!

[brad_G]

I second the fish! I recently went from 6 small fish to 13 with a large fox face and a pb tang and my growth has exploded. Also added 3 anthias so I feed 3-4 times a day now. I can't say that has helped but I have had a pretty serious explosion in growth after the addition.

[sahin]

OP, can you provide details about your system as follows:<O:p</O:p

1. How many gallons is your tank?<O:p</O:p

2. How much (lbs) liverock do you have in the system/display? Was it liverock or did you start with dead rock?<O:p</O:p

3. How much food do you feed per day?<O:p</O:p

4. How many fishes do you have in the tank?<O:p</O:p

5. How many cups of GFO do you use and how often is it replaced?

6. Any other chemical/biological filtration used?


Once I get the answers to the above, I will see if I can make some suggestions. I was in your position a year or so back. Now most of my corals are coloured up really nice; but I still have one or two stubborn brown ones. But those I think need some more time.

[Johnjohn713]

100g total volume of water

50 lbs LR with lot of micro fauna

Ceramic rings + chaeto in sump

1 Small hippo & a YT

Half cube of brine or mysis a day. Fish gazed on algae on glass all day long

1/3 cup of BRS Gfo changed every 30 days

Bulbs are 4 months old on for 8hrs
Coral plus
Aquablue Speacial
2 blue plus
1actinic
1 50/50

SG measured wit digital refractometer. Small amount of carbon maybe half a fistful.

[brad_G]

I feel you need more fish and to feed more! I am feeding my 125 about 3 cubes of food per day.

[Johnjohn713]

Yeah.. your params all look fine. Some other things to check:

Salinity -- if you haven't already, use another method to measure your salinity.
Bulbs? -- maybe the bulbs could use replacing. Have you ever measured your PAR?
Fish -- Could you use some more? I have a really messy blue tang and moorish idol that crap whenever they see a bubble. The acros love the crap.
Light intensity/spectrum -- How long do you keep all T5s on? Which lights do you use?
Carbon -- if you're not running it, definitely do; removes anything bad that might be in the water

Maybe iodine or strontium deficiency but if you're doing water changes once in awhile you should be good.

Or maybe you're right and you just need to drop the nitrates. There's some weird chemistry going on in our tanks and what works for one reefer doesn't always work for others (dirty water) . Good luck John!

Great looking MI. Care to give me a crash course how to keep one? Did you QT yours? How long have you had it for? Thanks

[CHSUB]

Man I don't know anymore. We're all been told high nitrate &po4 are not very helpful when it comes to colors but these days I keep hearing/seeing nice tank with off the chart phosphate .1+ and nitrate anywhere from 10-20ppm...sigh


check the source??? the internet allows for "some" exaggeration! any book, reef i've seen, personal experience, or coral expert will all lead to the same advice: feed your fish and keep no3 and po4 as low as possible.

[Johnjohn713]

check the source??? the internet allows for "some" exaggeration! any book, reef i've seen, personal experience, or coral expert will all lead to the same advice: feed your fish and keep no3 and po4 as low as possible.


Countless peeps have been running high numbers with some degree of success.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2366953


Others on R2R reported the same outcomes. But what am I to say I'm nothing but an average reefer that can keep corals alive but not the colors I wanted.

[Deadcalm]

Something doesn't add up. With what you've described as your fish load and feeding you should have very low po4 and nitrate. It's almost like you have no bacteria.

1. How long has your tank been setup and do you have coraline algae in your tank.
2. What are you using for circulation?

[CHSUB]

Countless peeps have been running high numbers with some degree of success.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2366953


Others on clay-boa reported the same outcomes. But what am I to say I'm nothing but an average reefer that can keep corals alive but not the colors I wanted.

Why waste your time and effort trying to duplicate one reefers technique when the overwhelming majority, with proven results, tells you to do it another way? Make it simpler not harder, no one can argue that is an impressive reef; however, it is the exception not the rule.

[Johnjohn713]

Something doesn't add up. With what you've described as your fish load and feeding you should have very low po4 and nitrate. It's almost like you have no bacteria.

1. How long has your tank been setup and do you have coraline algae in your tank.
2. What are you using for circulation?


I know, right? It's a 10 months old system with some coralline, just here and there. Is coralline an indication of success? I, too, suspect lack of bacteria but how could you tell?

Got a 600 gph return pump, 2 wp25 + a wp10.

@Chsub I'm not replicate others' high po4 levels. Just simply perplexed as to how they manage to pull it off with such high nutrient. Thanks!

[Deadcalm]

I know, right? It's a 10 months old system with some coralline, just here and there. Is coralline an indication of success? I, too, suspect lack of bacteria but how could you tell?

Yeah typically if you don't have coraline then your system is still to young to be successful with sps coral.

Your nutrient situation is strange unless you've introduced anti-bacterial medication or something.

In comparison to my tank feeding and bio load:

2 tangs, 2 wrasses, 5 chromis, 2 clowns, 3 damsels and 3 cardinals
I feed my fish twice early in the day with an auto feeder
Again when I get home from work with 2 cubes ( 1 brine shrimp and 1 mysis)
And again before the lights go out with flakes and pellets

My nitrates are 1 and po4 .03 and I don't use GFO. I just rely on my bacteria and skimmer. I dose a little Microbacter7 daily.

[Johnjohn713]

No meds ever touched my system, none whatsoever. I thinks it's either insufficient LR or bacteria thus causing high trates in return. Added ceramic rings a few days ago for more surface area so that's probably a few weeks away to see any results.

[shlap]

Great looking MI. Care to give me a crash course how to keep one? Did you QT yours? How long have you had it for? Thanks

Thanks! I've had him just 2 weeks shy of a year. I got him from another local reefer in HORRIBLE shape. He was literally ripped to shreds but he's doing awesome now; check out this post: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21593366&postcount=2301

He only eats New Life Spectrum pellets, Ocean Formula 1 pellets, and about 3 sheets of nori a day. He's a fatty. It seems people have a lot better luck with Idols that come out of Hawaii (mine is) so make sure yours is sourced from there if you decide to get one. And many people including myself swear by NLS pellets.

[Johnjohn713]

Wow what a huge turn around. Glad you gave him a good home. Well done!

[jackson6745]

FWIW my nitrates are 10-15ish and my po4 is .00-.02
Color and growth is great.

Johnjohn do you have a pic of your tank?

[Johnjohn713]

I do but how do I upload it on here. I'm computer stupid lol.

[AcroporAddict]

Countless peeps have been running high numbers with some degree of success.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2366953


You should realize the guy with that tank is an aquarium professional with an absolute ton of experience. Read his signature. He states he has a 212,000 gallon tank at work, and he lives in the SF Bay Area, so that means he works at the Steinhart Aquarium. He is not your typical Reefer, and his tank is the exception, not the rule.

[Deadcalm]

And he won't show any close up pictures of his sps so we can determine the health of his coral. I asked him and 3 others did as well and he won't show any close ups. What's he hiding?

[Piper27]

Yea close up pics, anywhere near macro like of his corals would be awesome for the thread, i stopped viewing it once i realized none would be provided.

OP if you want help post some pics. Much easier for people to help with pics of the subject, otherwise its sometimes a lot of guessing and assuming.

I have seen lots of tanks with high nutrient levels that are spectacular. And the whole "gotta have levels at or near zero for good colors" is rediculous.

Personally i wouldnt be expecting great colors on a tank 10 months old, but have seen a good number. So many ways to keep a reef, and to me its all about keeping it simple and stable.

[Johnjohn713]

Doing a WC as we speak. Will post some pics shortly.

[Johnjohn713]

//http://s384.photobucket.com/user/spongebob281/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

[Johnjohn713]

http://http://s384.photobucket.com/user/spongebob281/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

[Johnjohn713]

http://http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo286/spongebob281/Mobile%20Uploads/image.jpg (http://s384.photobucket.com/user/spongebob281/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image.jpg.html)

[sahin]

OP I think your tank needs 3 things:

1. A bit more liverock. Maybe put in the sump if you dont want to place the extra rock in the display. Especially as it looks like you are running a bare bottomed system like my tank. I honestly believe a bare bottomed tank needs a slightly bit more liverock than a tank which has a sand bed. I would add at least another 15lbs if possible.

2. More food. I have a 47G tank and on some days my tank gets 2-3 cubes of frozen food + flakes. But usually it is at least 2 cubes and some flake food too. Size for size, my tank gets around 4 times as much food as your tank.

My tank is half the size of yours, but gets twice the amount of food. I dont use GFO anymore and my filtration manages the food input and keep PO4 below 0.03ppm and NO3 below 0.2ppm. I also have a bare bottom tank.

3. Once you've added a bit more rock, I would add a few more small fish so you can feed the tank a bit more.

That should improve your situation. Do report back if you make changes. :)

[Johnjohn713]

I do have some additional LR in the sump though it's only about 5lbs. I think I need to upgrade my skimmer. It's pulling tea color skimmate but not as dark as I expected. Thanks for the advice .

[Deadcalm]

OP I think your tank needs 3 things:

1. A bit more liverock. Maybe put in the sump if you dont want to place the extra rock in the display. Especially as it looks like you are running a bare bottomed system like my tank. I honestly believe a bare bottomed tank needs a slightly bit more liverock than a tank which has a sand bed. I would add at least another 15lbs if possible.

2. More food. I have a 47G tank and on some days my tank gets 2-3 cubes of frozen food + flakes. But usually it is at least 2 cubes and some flake food too. Size for size, my tank gets around 4 times as much food as your tank.

My tank is half the size of yours, but gets twice the amount of food. I dont use GFO anymore and my filtration manages the food input and keep PO4 below 0.03ppm and NO3 below 0.2ppm. I also have a bare bottom tank.

3. Once you've added a bit more rock, I would add a few more small fish so you can feed the tank a bit more.

That should improve your situation. Do report back if you make changes. :)

+ 1 Sahin knows his stuff. I had a very similar issue as you a few months ago and followed Sahin's advise on other threads and my sps tank turned around and is now thriving and colorful. Thank you Sahin for all the contributions you've made on this forum over the years.

[Johnjohn713]

Yea seems like he sure know a lot when it comes to sps. Will try to add some moreLR to my system in the very near future thanks.

[Johnjohn713]

Just retested my Trate it's at 5ppm. I tested all my Params at least a few times to ensure accuracy yet everything is rock solid.

[Johnjohn713]

It's actually 10ppm...gosh I'm so color blind :)

[TheStinkyFish]

Believe it or not, I have some great growth and great colors in my tank. I hit a slump and was unbelievably busy. I didn't do any water changes for 2 months. I also wanted to let nature takes it course to see what happened. of course I dosed 2 part and other additives needed but my nitrates reached 80. My corals have been growing like crazy, great color and polyp extension. I have a variety of corals ranging from montis, blue tort, red dragon, tenius, purple table, red planet, zoas, birds nests, rainbow acans but mostly SPS. my phosphate was at .26. Now it has been 7 months. I started doing water changes on a consistent basis. my nitrates have dropped to about 40 and added gfo. phosphates are gone completely.

just my experience so far. :)

[Johnjohn713]

Wow more and more peeps amity with high po4/trates are coming out of the woodwork. Thanks for sharing.