Calculating run to sump (help!?) NEW SETUP

[angela1]

Okay guys. I was on a run with my reef tanks for a long time. I've had six, spent a fortune, had lots of fun, enjoyed many days and nights of playing in my tanks & plumbing my house. Then I lost my job, my money & my hobby.

Two years later, new house, self-employed and I'm back! I'm ready to reclaim my hobby! We're finishing the basement over the next two weeks. As a part of that I'm making plans to relocate my 150 gal cube tank to the basement. It will be positioned on an outside will and will need to run supply & return to a sump room (furnace room) approximately 13 ft away through the drop ceiling.

I'm brushing up on calculations and planning but could use some help! Please :)


Details:

Tank wall height is 8' 11" to get the pipe into the ceiling.

Distance from tank to the entrance of the furnace room 13'

Distance from ceiling entrance of furnace room to sump location (can run pipe on a slope) is 9' on diagonal/slope.


Can anyone help advise:

What size pump I need to travel this distance/configuration with the expected head loss (I think I'll loose 30 ft of head pressure).

What size pipe?

Any suggestions for keeping the flow quiet throughout the system?


Doing my homework but I'm out of practice and I know that my fellow reefers can offer me much greater insight on this DIY project!

Thanks!!
Angela

[uncleof6]

Sounds like you been busy planning...but...

Let's make sure I have this right: from the tank, up to the ceiling, 13ft through the ceiling, to the furnace room, then 9ft down to the sump. From the sump, 9ft up to the ceiling, 13ft back to the tank location then down to the tank. Roughly in all around 50ft. So far so good?

So you fire up the pump, which is going to be pretty hefty, we are talking reeflos of the dart or baracuda class, and water flows up through the ceiling, back down to the tank, the tank fills up, and floods the room...becasue unless I am missing something in this, water will not drain up through the ceiling...

So I guess my first question would be what are you really planning to do?

[angela1]

You got the dimensions & distance traveled correct.

I assumed I'd need a small sump under the tank with a solid pump to push the flow to the sump room. I realize water traveling up hill is never ideal but in my basement layout its the only option unless I run the pipe all along the outside walls. Longer distance overall but doesn't have to go uphill. I'm not an engineer and this is my weak spot in my hobby. Perhaps this option makes more sense?

We'd be looking at a distance (wall distance/no upward travel) of 34' (90 degree bend) x 20' (90 degree bend) x 32' to get to the sump.

Thoughts?

Angela

[uncleof6]

You would need exactly matched pumps, and everything exactly perfect. That is not going to happen. In a closed system, with a single pump, it would get closer to working right, but you would still need to go down, to the pump intake, so the suction head available would remain positive, rather than "negative," (part of the pumps "energy" is used in lifting the water to the inlet, taking away from the "push" side.) With the right "finesse" it could be done, "lifting," but for 150 gallons of water it is not worth it. Open system, such as in use today, no. Closed system means no sump...pump draws from the tank, and returns to the tank. The other definition of an open system aquarium draws from the ocean and returns to the ocean. (Several large public aquariums, nuclear power plants, etc.)

I don't think, considering the distance to the planned location for the sump, you are going to get a gravity drain (siphon or otherwise) to work very well, too much horizontal distance.

Fishrooms are nice, for larger (300+) tanks, but personally I find it sorta overkill for smaller tanks. You would be better off, rather than fight the "battle," to toss a wide (over 18") sump, 60 gallons or more, under the tank, and call it a day, unless you can drop straight down into the "fish room" or at least very close to it.

[angela1]

Buzz Kill.

I will grow into larger tanks; always have. But since we're doing construction on the basement now, I wanted to create the infrastructure necessary to support my hobby long term. Before we close the walls up with drywall. The location of the tank leaves me plenty of room to grow back into my dream tank.

In my last build (I still have the supplies) I had 100 gallon sump with enough live rock to fill the entire sump along with a massive skimmer, ATO system etc. Supplies that I still have.

So, let's imagine this build was for a 350 gallon reef tank (worth it now?) :)

If it was your problem, how would you do it up right from point A to point B?

AND by the way, I really appreciate that you took time to dialogue!! Taking all of your points into consideration for sure. As I said, this is the part that I really am not good at.

[uncleof6]

Seems you think I have never been faced with this before...the bid on the job takes around 5 minutes, and the client would be looking elsewhere. In a month or so, the client calls back, ok... we will move point A to point B. (Since you already have the 150 over there (Point A) on an outside wall.....and the furnace room isn't really the place for salt vapor...) in both cases, the tank wound up partially inwall, with the fishroom behind. The only way I would do that (original point a to point b,) is with a closed system, and with a closed system, there no use for a fish room; a pump/filter room perhaps...but what you going to do with the skimmer...

[angela1]

As you were sending this I was downstairs with a few contractors contemplating the move of the tank to the outside wall of the furnace room, closing the distance & height concerns & allowing for gravity flow from the tank to the sump room.

Sometimes we have to rely on logic rather than pie-in-the-sky.

That likely means buying a new tank that's better suited for that wall & space. Laughing-- now that's a problem many of us can relate to yeah?

Moving the tank to the outside wall of the furnace room eliminates the major concerns with getting a closed loop system with even flow.

More questions to come as I try to recall all of the important dos/donts of my system. Very excited to get back to my reef tanks!

How significant is the concern of salt vapor in my furnace room? I hadn't thought of that before. My sump has a thick, homemade, styrofoam lid on it to avoid evaporation.

Angela

[uncleof6]

As you were sending this I was downstairs with a few contractors contemplating the move of the tank to the outside wall of the furnace room, closing the distance & height concerns & allowing for gravity flow from the tank to the sump room.

Sometimes we have to rely on logic rather than pie-in-the-sky.

That likely means buying a new tank that's better suited for that wall & space. Laughing-- now that's a problem many of us can relate to yeah?

Moving the tank to the outside wall of the furnace room eliminates the major concerns with getting a closed loop system with even flow.

More questions to come as I try to recall all of the important dos/donts of my system. Very excited to get back to my reef tanks!

I have been doing this a while, 20 years professionally (as a side line albeit) ;) It would seem that logic would prevail more often, unfortunately it doesn't, and telling folks what they want to hear, seems the norm...



How significant is the concern of salt vapor in my furnace room? I hadn't thought of that before. My sump has a thick, homemade, styrofoam lid on it to avoid evaporation.

AngelaAnywhere that corrosion will cause problems for equipment, and moisture will cause problems with materials, and structures, and equipment. Is not the place for this type of thing. There are solutions, however:

Sealing up the sump with styrofoam, is NOT one of them. Sealing up the sump to prevent evaporation, causes a buildup of CO₂ in the sump, which causes the pH to drop, (and O₂ levels to drop also) which places a strain on the rest of the system, and to be blunt, most systems are not set up well enough to begin with, to deal with the reduction in gas exchange, and pH variations that cause undue stress on the critters.

[angela1]

Well....I just committed to a custom build. We're re-mapping our basement build to incorporate an in-wall tank with sump room behind it. It meant moving plans for my husbands bar but we agree it's the best option. It's going to give me an amazing space for ATO & semi-automated water changes etc.

Also thanks for the warning about my Styrofoam cover; something I had not thought of.
Now to find the tank so that we can begin framing the wall and planning the layout. Looking to buy a 6-8'L x (as much height as I can get) H x 24 D.

Anyone know of anyone selling?

I'll post a new thread on the build once we get past the first few steps.

[uncleof6]

Well....I just committed to a custom build. We're re-mapping our basement build to incorporate an in-wall tank with sump room behind it. It meant moving plans for my husbands bar but we agree it's the best option. It's going to give me an amazing space for ATO & semi-automated water changes etc.

Now to find the tank so that we can begin framing the wall and planning the layout. Looking to buy a 6-8'L x (as much height as I can get) H x 24 D.

Anyone know of anyone selling?

I'll post a new thread on the build once we get past the first few steps.

A word of advice: Make the tank wider (front to back) than high. This is a basic salt water conventional wisdom that dates back 40 years or more...it affects the "breathability" of the tank.

Within the class of tanks (300+) that came up earlier, a 72 x 29 x 36 (325 gallon) will be stunning, and give you plenty of room to play. If you did not mind the added weight and cost, it could go up to 36" high, but I would tend to keep it down around 30". Look at it like this:

It is going in wall yes? You are not going to be upgrading it for a long time, so make it "awesome" from the word go.

Here is one of the 'roughs' for a 325 build.

http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/uncleof6/Untitled-19.jpg

[angela1]

Again very helpful. Thanks for taking the time to help a girl out! I also didn't realize the value of deep dimension relative to breatheability. Finding the right tank might take some time.

I'll be hopeful for more technical advise once we find the tank and begin mapping it out.

[woodnaquanut]

Can anyone join this 'private' conversation? :)

I think the solution you came to is the best. If you are doing major construction why not make it work best for the tank!

Have you had a deep tank before? Maybe I'm unusually short armed but my 24" deep tank is a PIA to get to the bottom of. 30" would, for me, require a snorkel!

In wall tanks look nice but I have seen some shots of partially in wall that look great. Gives you the cool end view of everything. Of course those end walls need cleaning so that might not be the best. :)

Do you have any sketches of what's planned?

[angela1]

Funny you mentioned the PIA part of reaching the rock/bottom etc. I'm 5' zero. The last tank I had was 8' x 24" x 24". I almost fell in on more than one occasion. If I could figure out a solution to that problem I'd prefer the route of a deeper tank with more of a viewing window. If I can't then in reality I need to (probably) stick with 24" -- at least that's what my husband is saying ;).

I remember every time I reached in before my face got wet and almost required a snorkel. How do short people do this? I remember doing water changes any time I needed to reach deep into the tank and it only made it slightly easier.

Anyone know of a trick to make it more manageable?

[angela1]

No sketches yet, but we're laying out the wood framing on the floor with different tank sizes in mind. That'll come first then I'll see what available space I have to plan the system.

[angela1]

The area is being framed with an opening for a 6'L x 3'D x (height is undetermined) tank. Now on a quest to find the best option I can for this room.

[angela1]

My current tank has been in a room FULL of light that has caused a horrific algae bloom (red algae covering 200lbs of live rock). As I'm preparing for the upgrade to my 350 gal tank any suggestions how to get this rock back into shape?

Should I move it to a sump and deprive it of light (die off might cause tank to cycle)
Should I scrub it? (It's 5 years old and is loaded with great little critters & sponges)

Ideas?

[uncleof6]

Rhodophyta? Or cyanobacteria?

To put it somewhat in perspective, "Rhodophyta (Red algae) are ecologically significant as primary producers, providers of structural habitat for other marine organisms, and their important role in the primary establishment and maintenance of coral reefs." Phylum Rhodophyta has between 2500 - 6000 species... it includes the "coralline algae."

Cyanobacteria, (red slime, not an algae) on the other hand, is a sign of poor conditions in the system. Poor circulation/low oxygen levels.

I am not certain what you mean by "die off might cause tank to cycle." The nitrogen cycle, never stops, it is continuous from the moment either organic material, or inorganic (ammonia) is introduced into the system. Die off, on a large scale, could cause a spike in ammonia perhaps, but a mature system of 5 years, assuming the system has been run naturally (no organic carbon dosing, lenghty argument ensues...) should handle the spike rather quickly.

As far as the critters go, and the new tank... assuming it is all moving...as soon as the "rock" hits the air, the sponges are gone. If you scrub the rock, everything is gone. If you move the rock still underwater (yes it can be done,) and the water as well, the new tank will still need to "cycle," before it is safe to add other life...

So what to do...I don't think I would remove the light, rather reduce it, and get more aggressive with nutrient removal. Toss in some worms and gastropods (snails) that love red algae...natural removal will always be superior to "drastic measures."

[angela1]

I'm stumped. Looked at images; did some reading. I don't know which type of algae this is. Can you help me to identify?

Confession: My tank parameters are messy, that's why we're moving the tank to the basement. The location makes it very difficult to do water changes, limited space for equipment (haven't had my skimmer running on it in year) etc. HENCE THE CHANGE. Lots of good ecology in there even though it needs some work.

Here's a pic of my algae encased rock!

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/album.php?albumid=8986

[angela1]

Thanks for the reminder about keeping the rock submerged before/during/after the move. In the current tank I drilled holes & strapped rock together to build my rock structure with a DIY sunken PVC pipe stand through the center. Taking that apart under water will be a challenge but rebuilding it in the new 350 gal should be fun! I think I can keep the rock protected and still get it done.

[uncleof6]

I'm stumped. Looked at images; did some reading. I don't know which type of algae this is. Can you help me to identify?

Confession: My tank parameters are messy, that's why we're moving the tank to the basement. The location makes it very difficult to do water changes, limited space for equipment (haven't had my skimmer running on it in year) etc. HENCE THE CHANGE. Lots of good ecology in there even though it needs some work.

Here's a pic of my algae encased rock!

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/album.php?albumid=8986

Well, since the images are badly out of focus, it is really hard to tell. Given the circumstances, it can be safe to proceed as if it is cyano...the control is the same as it is for algae, e.g. it requires nutrients to survive. Albeit, since cyano is the oldest lifeform on earth, it don't take much for it to survive.

Siphon what you can out, careful not to take out the sponges, get your dissolved organics down to a manageable level (foam fractionation,) get your nitrates in hand (bucket DSB is the best method...) or you can go after PO4 for the short term, (you only need to limit one and nitrates are "safer") I don't recommend continuous use of GFO, or other "phosphate removers." Also, get your oxygen levels up, which helps with cyano. Increase flow through the system, and improve circulation in the tank.

Water changes don't do much to help with managing nutrients and dissolved organics. But they can be a life saver if your ammonia spikes hard, and doesn't start dropping in a relatively short period of time...algae/cyano is nothing to hit the panic button over...

Ambient light levels, especially sunlight (direct or reflected) cause a problem with any system, and limiting it would be to your advantage.

You are quite some time out from the new tank, so the investment in time and "finesse" with the old tank, will make things "better" in the new (don't take problems from one tank into another...) I don't really want to see you start nuking things...

[angela1]

Thank you for your help. I do have time to get things in order and the algae is one of the first symptoms of poor quality I want to see diminish. I think I'm going to cover the tank during the day to help decrease natural sunlight this week and just rely on the tank lighting for a more controlled environment. I'll also incorporate your other suggestions. THANKS.