Is this a good idea?

[Fish_King_25]

I want /need to determine what my consumption of alk, calc, and mg are at this point in my tank..my plan of attack was to go home...test..and then not add anything for 7 days, and then re-test and do the math..

Should I do a WC today and then test tomorrow first for a fresh start and replenishment from the WC? Or is there a better way to get the results?

Thanks!

[disc1]

You're doing it right. I'd throw a test about day 3 or so just to make sure 7 days might be a little long. But you're doing it right.

[Fish_King_25]

You're doing it right. I'd throw a test about day 3 or so just to make sure 7 days might be a little long. But you're doing it right.

Awesome..thank you very much..I'm going to do a WC today..and then go ahead and test everything tomorrow and start tracking...thanks again!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

A couple of things to keep in mind.

You won't see a measurable (real) decline in magnesium in that time. You'll likely have to monitor it longer.

The demand for alk depends on the actual alk value. So it declines a lot faster at 11 dKH than at 6 dKH. Alk might get too low in just a few days (or even 1 day in some tanks), and then the decline stops. It doesn't really go below about 6 dKH due to calcification since creatures cannot calcify well below that and abiotic precipitation will stop.

So, for example, the demand on day 1 from 11 to 10 dKH might look like 1 dKH per day, then at 8 dKH it might be 0.5 dKH per day, then at 6 dKH it may not decline at all. Those are all just made up numbers, but they give the idea.

[Reef is Life]

Randy. First and foremost, I enjoy your well educated/intelligent insight and it's absolutely great to see you frequenting here again :)

I've found that the low range threshold for Alk is 5.5 dKH ...

Still around your 6 number, but it really does seem to be right at that 5.5 mark, in my experiences ... On separate systems as well

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:thumbsup:

Thanks :)

[ACRO AL]

The demand for alk depends on the actual alk value. So it declines a lot faster at 11 dKH than at 6 dKH.

I notice this too. Is it due to increased calcification or unwanted precipitation?

[disc1]

I notice this too. Is it due to increased calcification or unwanted precipitation?

Both

[Fish_King_25]

A couple of things to keep in mind.

You won't see a measurable (real) decline in magnesium in that time. You'll likely have to monitor it longer.

The demand for alk depends on the actual alk value. So it declines a lot faster at 11 dKH than at 6 dKH. Alk might get too low in just a few days (or even 1 day in some tanks), and then the decline stops. It doesn't really go below about 6 dKH due to calcification since creatures cannot calcify well below that and abiotic precipitation will stop.

So, for example, the demand on day 1 from 11 to 10 dKH might look like 1 dKH per day, then at 8 dKH it might be 0.5 dKH per day, then at 6 dKH it may not decline at all. Those are all just made up numbers, but they give the idea.

Randy,

Thank you very much for your insight and help with this one..Chemistry is definitely not my strongest suit in this hobby, but I'm learning! Going to wait until Friday for the WC, and Saturday to start my close tracking of parameters..(rough week at work, haven't had the energy after I get home)

I will definitely be posting my results and seeking advice on whether or not I should continue with WCs, or supplement if needed..Thanks again!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:thumbsup:

Good luck. :)

[Fish_King_25]

:thumbsup:

Good luck. :)

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/05/zu3age4u.jpg

I did my 5g WC yesterday and I'm about to test everything now!..

Stay tuned for parameters (and possibly some help) lol

[Fish_King_25]

And the results are....

Ph- 8.2
NO2- 0
NO3- less than 5ppm
Am- 0
Alk- 8.5
Cal- 410
Mg- 1420
PO4- .04

Anything I should be doing or strictly just waiting 3 days or 5 days or 7 days without adding anything and RE-testing??

[dkeller_nc]

That depends on what you wish to target for your Calcium and Alkalinity levels. A lot of us target about 450 ppm for Calcium to have a bit of a buffer (NSW values are around 400 ppm). Alkalinity seems to have a good bit more variation for a target value, though most don't want it to fall below 8 dKH.

My suggestion is that you might want to decide what you want these parameters at, adjust your tank water to those levels, then begin your consumption experiment.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree. Decide where you want things, then dose when alk drops below that level. If you need to make a one time correction to calcium, that's fine too. :)

[Fish_King_25]

Well I would like my calcium to be around 450, and my alkalinity to be around 9-9.5, but I currently don't have an alkalinity supplement in my house, I do have Turbo Calcium, so is it safe to safe that WCs are going to basically bring me to my parameters I'm currently at now?

I just to be able to accurately know what my tank is consuming... Should I raiser my calcium and alkalinity now? Test tomorrow, and once I'm at my "desired levels, let it go for a period of time and retest for consumption?

Also if after a water change my calcium is 400, I raise it to 450, then do another WC does !y calcium drop to 400 again?

I'm sorry if I'm over thinking or asking stupid questions..I know I'm going to have to start supplementing or dosing soon..I'm trying to be proactive so I don't needs anything up in the process..

[dkeller_nc]

Alkalinity is as easy as a trip to the grocery store. Buy a box of Arm & Hammer baking soda. This is pure, food-grade sodium bicarbonate.

You can use BRS Reef Calculator:

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/reef-calculator

To figure out how much dry sodium bicarbonate is required to change your tank's alkalinity from X to Y. The general guideline is to not increase your alkalinity more than 0.5 dKH per 24 hours, perhaps slower if you have SPS corals.

So if your starting tank alkalinity is 8.0, and you want to raise it to 9.0, just enter 8.0 as the starting alkalinity into the calculator, and 8.5 as the end-point. Measure out this much (the calculator gives both teaspoons and grams, if you have a kitchen scale), dissolve it in a glass of RO/DI water, and add this to your tank, preferably in 1/3 doses separated by 20 minutes each.

Don't worry about asking questions, it's why we're here. :)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Also if after a water change my calcium is 400, I raise it to 450, then do another WC does !y calcium drop to 400 again?

Seems unlikely to be true unless it was a big water change. A 10% change with no calcium at all in the new water still wouldn't drop it all the way to 400 ppm. Have you measured the calcium in the mix?

[Fish_King_25]

No I haven't, Randy.

It was as hypothetical question really.

If regular water changes don't give me substantial calcium levels and I choose to dose...would water changes be working against me somehow is what I was asking..

I'm about to use some Turbo Calcium and raise my Calcium up to around 450, and once my Calcium is there, I'll test everything and then measure my consumption without interrupting with any WCs

[Fish_King_25]

Alkalinity is as easy as a trip to the grocery store. Buy a box of Arm & Hammer baking soda. This is pure, food-grade sodium bicarbonate.

You can use BRS Reef Calculator:

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/reef-calculator

To figure out how much dry sodium bicarbonate is required to change your tank's alkalinity from X to Y. The general guideline is to not increase your alkalinity more than 0.5 dKH per 24 hours, perhaps slower if you have SPS corals.

So if your starting tank alkalinity is 8.0, and you want to raise it to 9.0, just enter 8.0 as the starting alkalinity into the calculator, and 8.5 as the end-point. Measure out this much (the calculator gives both teaspoons and grams, if you have a kitchen scale), dissolve it in a glass of RO/DI water, and add this to your tank, preferably in 1/3 doses separated by 20 minutes each.

Don't worry about asking questions, it's why we're here. :)

Oh wow, that seems relatively easy enough..I can do that :) thanks for the tip Keller!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If the salt mix is lower than you want the tank, boost the salt mix water, not the tank. :)

I've done that. Once you get a routine, there's no need to measure the new mix. :)

[Fish_King_25]

If the salt mix is lower than you want the tank, boost the salt mix water, not the tank. :)

I've done that. Once you get a routine, there's no need to measure the new mix. :)

Makes sense to me now..Thanks Randy!

Another question if I may, how exactly will I know if/when it's time to dose my tank?

[dkeller_nc]

I can't answer for how Randy does it, but what I do with a new tank is to set the levels at or slightly above my targets (450 ppm Ca and 9 dKH Alk in my case), dose a 2-part solution at approximately 1 mL of solution per gallon of system volume, then check the tank water with test kits after 3 days. If the levels are low, I up the dosage slightly, if they're high, I drop the dosage slightly. After a few rounds of this, I've dialed in the requirements, and cut testing back to once per week.

When I refer to "mL of 2-part solutions", I'm using Randy's recipe (#2):

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/

Bulk Reef Supply also has instructions for making these solutions; they're very close to Randy's in concentration.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That's about what I recommend.

Here are the directions section from my recipe article:

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

from it (I left out the table as it doesn't post well, but it is in the link):

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php#15

The dosing instructions are basically the same for each recipe, although any given aquarium will end up using about twice as much of recipe #2 as recipe #1 to add the same amount of calcium and alkalinity.

To initiate dosing, first adjust calcium and alkalinity to roughly their correct ranges. This may require a substantial dose of just the calcium part if calcium is low (e.g., below 380 ppm). I would suggest targeting calcium between 380 and 450 ppm, and alkalinity between 2.5 and 4 meq/L (7-11 dKH; 125-200 ppm calcium carbonate equivalents).

This calculator shows how much of what parts to add in order to boost one or both of the parameters by a certain amount:
Reef chemicals calculator
http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

Then, once things seem roughly correct, select a starting daily dose for routine dosing. Here are some suggested starting doses, but the exact values do not matter much. The suggested doses apply to both recipes.

After a few days of dosing, note whether alkalinity is low, high or on target. Only bother to test alkalinity, not calcium, during this period, because it is much more sensitive than calcium to over- or underdosing. Adjust the dose up or down as necessary to increase or decrease the alkalinity.

Once you have determined the proper dose, continue it until there is a substantial reason to adjust it (such as falling alkalinity as the corals increase in size). When adjusting the dose, raise or lower both of the recipe's parts together.

Resist the temptation to keep jiggering calcium and alkalinity independently. They will need occasional corrections, but that should not be the normal course of dosing unless there are substantial outside influences, such as water changes with a salt mix that does not match the tank's parameters or an error in making the mixes.

Check alkalinity fairly frequently to make sure the dosing continues at a suitable rate. Check it maybe once a week to once a month (or less as you get more experienced with the system and the tank). Check calcium once a month to once every few months to make sure it continues on track.

Remember to add an appropriate amount of Part 3 each time you finish adding a gallon of Parts 1 and 2.

[Fish_King_25]

That's about what I recommend.

Here are the directions section from my recipe article:

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

from it (I left out the table as it doesn't post well, but it is in the link):

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php#15

The dosing instructions are basically the same for each recipe, although any given aquarium will end up using about twice as much of recipe #2 as recipe #1 to add the same amount of calcium and alkalinity.

To initiate dosing, first adjust calcium and alkalinity to roughly their correct ranges. This may require a substantial dose of just the calcium part if calcium is low (e.g., below 380 ppm). I would suggest targeting calcium between 380 and 450 ppm, and alkalinity between 2.5 and 4 meq/L (7-11 dKH; 125-200 ppm calcium carbonate equivalents).

This calculator shows how much of what parts to add in order to boost one or both of the parameters by a certain amount:
Reef chemicals calculator
http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

Then, once things seem roughly correct, select a starting daily dose for routine dosing. Here are some suggested starting doses, but the exact values do not matter much. The suggested doses apply to both recipes.

After a few days of dosing, note whether alkalinity is low, high or on target. Only bother to test alkalinity, not calcium, during this period, because it is much more sensitive than calcium to over- or underdosing. Adjust the dose up or down as necessary to increase or decrease the alkalinity.

Once you have determined the proper dose, continue it until there is a substantial reason to adjust it (such as falling alkalinity as the corals increase in size). When adjusting the dose, raise or lower both of the recipe's parts together.

Resist the temptation to keep jiggering calcium and alkalinity independently. They will need occasional corrections, but that should not be the normal course of dosing unless there are substantial outside influences, such as water changes with a salt mix that does not match the tank's parameters or an error in making the mixes.

Check alkalinity fairly frequently to make sure the dosing continues at a suitable rate. Check it maybe once a week to once a month (or less as you get more experienced with the system and the tank). Check calcium once a month to once every few months to make sure it continues on track.

Remember to add an appropriate amount of Part 3 each time you finish adding a gallon of Parts 1 and 2.

Thank you so much for all the great info, Randy!

I have a little update for you:

Last Saturday 4/5 I did a full test and my parameters were

Sg- 1.026
Am- 0
NO2- 0
NO3- >5ppm
PH- 8.2
Alk-8.5
Calc- 410
Mg- 1420

I wanted to raise my Calcium to a desirable level of 450ppm so following the calculator I upped mine slowly over the last week using the recommended amounts of TurboCalcium..

Today (exactly 1 week later) I tested everything again...

Sg- 1.026
Am- 0
NO2- 0
NO3- >5ppm
PH- 8.2
Alk-7.8
Calc- 440
Mg- 1600+ ???

So my Calcium has definitely gone up as expected from the dosing, and most things stayed the same (which was expected) Alkalinity dropped .07 which I can assume is about .01 per day? seem right?

What I am unsure about is the Mag? Would dosing turbo calcium affect my magnesium level? Maybe I just messed up testing lol

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Seems good!

The magnesium bump is error, either before or now. I personally wouldn't bother trying to figure out which, unless you enjoy testing. :)

The alk decline is pretty small but there is nothing wrong with that. :)

[Fish_King_25]

Seems good!

The magnesium bump is error, either before or now. I personally wouldn't bother trying to figure out which, unless you enjoy testing. :)

The alk decline is pretty small but there is nothing wrong with that. :)

I figured as much! I am not going to look into it I'm sure it's fine..I am going to see how the calcium goes over the next few days and monitor the decline of that as well and possibly figure out if/when I should begin dosing but water changes seem to be taking care of things for now :)

[Fish_King_25]

another question regarding my phosphates, .04 last Saturday, GFO was just replaced, skimmer was just cleaned and in 7 days my test says .17

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Do you have an algae problem?

[Fish_King_25]

Do you have an algae problem?

No sir..rocks are clean sand is perfect..

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Then I wouldn't agonize over the phosphate. I'd wait to replace the GFO again for at least a few days, and longer if it declines. :)

[Fish_King_25]

Then I wouldn't agonize over the phosphate. I'd wait to replace the GFO again for at least a few days, and longer if it declines. :)

I will check Phosphates in a couple days and see where we are! Thanks :)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:thumbsup:

Good luck. :)

[nicholasb]

I use the 10ppm methord. If your alk drops by 10ppm (0.5dkh) then you dose back up to the starting level. For every 10ppm alk lost you would loose 3.3ppm calcium. 3.3 ppm calcium is hard to spot, but if you 2 part dirctions tell you to dose both parts evenly then when you dose back up 10ppm alk to your stating level, adding the same of the cal should = 3.3ppm. If you where using dosing pumps then you could dose in smaller amounts more often.

[Fish_King_25]

Phosphates now reading at .10 so they are down from last test! I'm going to test Alk and Calcium again tomorrow and see where things are!