Chloroquine Primer

[alprazo]

Treats:
Amyloodinium (velvet)
Cryptocaryon (Ich)
Uronema marinum - with recurrence upon cessation and return to display
Possibly Brooklynella

Compatible with:
Praziquantil - YES (the known interaction has to do with cytochrome P450 in the first pass, hepatic metabolism of praziquantil and is not relevant when treating in bath formulation)
Amquel - YES
Prime - YES
Nitrofurazone (furan II) - YES
UV light - NO
Dimilin - YES
Copper - MAYBE (evidence exists that it my be synergistic)

Dosing:
10mg/l or 40mg/gal bath formulation
50 mg/kg - oral

Duration:
30 days - single dose - Ich
14 days - single dose - velvet

Degradation:
Carbon - removal
Light in the UV near visible light spectrum (390 nm) CF lighting with typical peaks in the 500s and 600s should be fine.

Half life:
After one oral dose at 50mg/kg - mucus levels remained therapeutic for 7 days and detectable for 30 days for velvet.

Activity:
In velvet, 10mg/l dose resulted in 100% dinospore inactivity at 48 hrs and 100% cure at 14 days. At a dose of 25 mg/l it took 24 hrs for 100% inactivity.

Lethal dose:
A dose of 200mg/l showed no adverse organ effects on necropsy.

Contraindications:
Pipefish
Sea dragons
possibly some wrasse

Miscellaneous:
Chloroquine has a known anti-inflammatory effect. In theory this could possibly reduce gill edema and increase oxygen transport (The gill edema and poor oxygen transport is what kills our fish)

It has been used in aquaculture since the late 70s

There is no known antibacterial activity and therefore will not effect biologic filtration

Strong algicidal activity

[HumbleFish]

Excellent info! May I re-post this information in a couple of local (Louisiana) boards I frequent? If so, I will be sure to give you proper credit for this information.

[alprazo]

No problem. All data expect for compatibility and contra indications is based on published data.

Compatibility is based on my own observations except copper
Pipefish and sea dragons is from a public aquarium
Maybe some wrasse is from my own experience and some others on the board.

[Deinonych]

Uronema marinum - with recurrence upon cessation and return to display

Can you explain what you mean by this?

[MrTuskfish]

Good info. I'm sure you know that CP had a lot of chatter going on during your sabbatical. Thanks!

[alprazo]

Thx Steve. I kept getting calls from my pharmacy friend about CP questions his vet couldn't answer so I figured the topic was active.

deinonych,

When I first started experimenting with CP, I tried it on different diseased fish. At one point I bought a group of 10 chromis, some of them already showing signs of Uronema. The fish were treated, 2 died the first night, but the rest pulled through. After a month, I returned them to a tank that I knew had Uronema in the past. On the 45th day after treatment I diagnosed one of the chromis with Uronema. 6 of them in total died over the next 6 months. Couldn't tell if all were from Uronema. Three of the fish I never found.

This was not the case with velvet and ich. Fish that were infected with Amyloodinium and successfully treated with CP, did not show disease when re-exposed to it. These fish however were infectious and new untreated fish would rapidly show signs of infection if I placed one of these cp treated but reinfected fish in their tank. With ich, previous treated fish did show signs of re-infection when returned to an ich contaminated tank, but only when there was a new untreated fish with a bad infection. It appeared to me that the treated fish developed a partial immunity, but the immune system could be overcome with a high contagion load. These are only my observations.

Also know that Uronema is not a obligate parasite like crypto or ammylodinum. It is free living, able to run a full life cycle without a host. There is no fallow period that is successful for this one. Fortunately it seems to only cause issues in chromis and sometimes other fish maintained in poor conditions. Pristine water tends to keep this one at bay.

I was never able to obtain a brook infected fish during that time. I just never saw one so I don't know if CP works.

[alprazo]

Btw. As mentioned before in other threads. This carrier created state for velvet is one reason why I discourage the use of CP in holding facilities and stores. These fish will not show signs of velvet, will look great in QT, but once placed in the DT, it can infect all of your other fish. The same may be the case with ich. This is also why I recommend treating every new fish. More and more facilities are using CP, unfortunately after recommendations from some of the leaders and experts in this hobby. Unlike copper, which has proven long term success, it may also lead to the rapid development of resistance.

[snorvich]

Btw. As mentioned before in other threads. This carrier created state for velvet is one reason why I discourage the use of CP in holding facilities and stores. These fish will not show signs of velvet, will look great in QT, but once placed in the DT, it can infect all of your other fish. The same may be the case with ich. This is also why I recommend treating every new fish. More and more facilities are using CP, unfortunately after recommendations from some of the leaders and experts in this hobby. Unlike copper, which has proven long term success, it may also lead to the rapid development of resistance.

Actually copper can mask velvet and ich when dosed non-therapeutically, which is a similar but related problem. Fish can develop immunity to ich and velvet but still carry it by my guess, about 5% of the time. I think I recall malarial studies in people with malaria becoming resistant to some medications (perhaps CP was one of them).

[snorvich]

Also know that Uronema is not a obligate parasite like crypto or ammylodinum. It is free living, able to run a full life cycle without a host. There is no fallow period that is successful for this one. Fortunately it seems to only cause issues in chromis and sometimes other fish maintained in poor conditions. Pristine water tends to keep this one at bay.



So does that mean that with tanks infected with Uronema that 4 week treatment with CP will rid the tank of uronema?

[MrTuskfish]

Actually copper can mask velvet and ich when dosed non-therapeutically, which is a similar but related problem. Fish can develop immunity to ich and velvet but still carry it by my guess, about 5% of the time. I think I recall malarial studies in people with malaria becoming resistant to some medications (perhaps CP was one of them).

I think you're right on the studies showing malaria resistance in some meds; I remember reading a proposed fund raising piece for a NPO that ran it.

[alprazo]

Actually copper can mask velvet and ich when dosed non-therapeutically, which is a similar but related problem. Fish can develop immunity to ich and velvet but still carry it by my guess, about 5% of the time. I think I recall malarial studies in people with malaria becoming resistant to some medications (perhaps CP was one of them).

Good point. Another reason not to dose sub therapeutic levels.

[alprazo]

So does that mean that with tanks infected with Uronema that 4 week treatment with CP will rid the tank of uronema?

In theory, if you treat the display tank you could eradicate Uronema.

[alprazo]

Resistance to antimalarial meds is widespread.
http://www.stanford.edu/class/humbio103/ParaSites2005/Chloroquine/Endemic%20areas.gif

[Flashy Fins]

With ich, previous treated fish did show signs of re-infection when returned to an ich contaminated tank, but only when there was a new untreated fish with a bad infection. It appeared to me that the treated fish developed a partial immunity, but the immune system could be overcome with a high contagion load. These are only my observations.

Different ich strains, maybe? I hear talk of "super strains" that are resistant to certain treatments, but I don't know anything about how many strains there really are, or if the idea of more than one strain is just another ich myth.

Also know that Uronema is not a obligate parasite like crypto or ammylodinum. It is free living, able to run a full life cycle without a host. There is no fallow period that is successful for this one. Fortunately it seems to only cause issues in chromis and sometimes other fish maintained in poor conditions. Pristine water tends to keep this one at bay.

As someone who is going through a fallow period after disease (thankfully, not uronema), this makes me so nervous! Pristine water conditions are the goal, of course, but with a parasite that needs no host, I worry that if something unusual happens to stress a fish out, uronema could show itself seemingly out of nowhere, the same way ich rears its head after a stressful event in tanks wrongly believed to be ich-free. It makes me especially wary about buying fish from stores where I've seen uronema-infected chromis, but for all I know, even stores that don't have any chromis in their tanks have uronema in their tanks, either from previous chromis or from other fish that shared tanks with chromis along the chain of custody.

I'll feel better when more is known and understood about why chromis are having this issue. I'm not interested in buying any, but I do like other small fish they're frequently housed with in stores.

[Tetra84]

If you know that a fish does have Uronema in your QT, do you even risk introducing it into your reef display after a supposedly successful CP treatment? or should it be completely banned? I've got 5 chromis together with one suspected of having the disease. I'd really like an answer on this one.

[Tetra84]

Can you explain what you mean by this?

I'd like to know also, alprazo are you saying that CP won't completely cure Uronema? If not, will anything?

[alprazo]

In the reef system, where water conditions are important, I would not worry about uronema unless you plan to keep chromis. If a different species does come down with it, I would consider that fish immunocomprimised and it would die of another cause soon if not uronema.

As for chromis. Ime I have been able to clear some fish. Upon return to the display, they again came down with it, different fish at different times, and perished. I would look at the DT as permanently infected and you would probably have to treat with copper or chloroquine to eradicate it. Neither are acceptable choices. If placed into a virgin tank, I'm believe the treated chromis would be clear.

Btw, if one chromis has it, I would treat all.

[Tetra84]

Thanks alprazo, I appreciate the feedback. FYI here is what my black axil chromis looks like in QT that has the suspicious spot:

They've never seen the inside of my reef tank. I've had chromis before in my main tank, but I haven't seen Uronema in my display before. I'm currently treating my QT with 75mg/gal of CP as of this morning.

[Deinonych]

I wonder if the higher incidence of Uronema in chromis has to do with their characteristic picking on each other all the time? It's common knowledge that chromis will winnow themselves down to one or two individuals over time. Perhaps the wounds are inflicted as part of this behavior, and the protozoan takes advantage of the situation.

[Tetra84]

I wonder if the higher incidence of Uronema in chromis has to do with their characteristic picking on each other all the time? It's common knowledge that chromis will winnow themselves down to one or two individuals over time. Perhaps the wounds are inflicted as part of this behavior, and the protozoan takes advantage of the situation.

Yeah perhaps, They were all bagged separately and the one with the sore had it when I received them. Perhaps it might have been picked on and developed the sore in Live Aquaria's tank?

[MitchSutherland]

I dosed my tank with chloroquine phosphate. I have high nitrates and I am trying to grow algae on my scrubber. I have all the correct lighting and roughed up screen. I can not grow any algae whatsoever. I am on day ten with still no algae. I know chloroquine phosphate can act as Algaecide. So I am going to completely drain the tank and put fresh saltwater in. Will this help enable me to grow algae??

[alprazo]

Carbon should remove it. It also takes more than ten days to grow turf algae.

[MitchSutherland]

I have carbon in there. And my nitrates are through the roof. I was under the impression it would at least show something in the first ten days. There isn't diatoms or anything.

[Flashy Fins]

In the reef system, where water conditions are important, I would not worry about uronema unless you plan to keep chromis. If a different species does come down with it, I would consider that fish immunocomprimised and it would die of another cause soon if not uronema.

Thank you, that is reassuring. I still plan to avoid buying fish from the same tank as a fish dying or dead from uronema, but it puts my more paranoid concerns to rest.

[Jacob Sellers]

I started CP last weekend. Fish look bad. Fins look like they are rotting and they have a white film on their bodies. Could this be a reaction to the CP?

[HumbleFish]

I started CP last weekend. Fish look bad. Fins look like they are rotting and they have a white film on their bodies. Could this be a reaction to the CP?

There have been some anecdotal accounts of fish developing bacterial infections after/during CP treatment. According to alprazo (1st post); you can mix CP with Nitrofurazone i.e. Furan-2.

[Tetra84]

Thanks alprazo, I appreciate the feedback. FYI here is what my black axil chromis looks like in QT that has the suspicious spot:

They've never seen the inside of my reef tank. I've had chromis before in my main tank, but I haven't seen Uronema in my display before. I'm currently treating my QT with 75mg/gal of CP as of this morning.

I'd like to update that just 4 days into CP treatment, this spot is virtually gone.. I'm impressed!

[yalpal]

Is it recommended to have the a skimmer running or no? I have read and heard contradicting information for using a skimmer with CP treatment. Thanks!

[alprazo]

I have safely dose or treated the following with CP:

Amquel/Prime
Nitrofurazone
Praziquantil
Enrofloxacin
Dimilin
Hyposalinity
Erythromycin
Doxycycline
Tricaine

[scuzy]

has there been a better reliable source for CP other than the vet?

[alprazo]

Not that I am aware of. I am still receiving PMs and calls from people that purchased CP, from the online vendors, that are reporting yellow or cloudy water and ineffective responses despite proper dosing. Right now, the most reliable product you will find is either at your vet, pharmacy or by purchasing branded Avloclor from Canada made by Astra Zeneca in foil punch packaging.

[tassod]

hey guys, i need to get some CP to treat my fish. the QT tank is a 20g and its cycled. What dosage would i need to apply proper treatment. The doctor calling this in for me is asking me if i want 250mg tablets or 500mg tablets. Which ones should i get and how may would i need? I think they are charging about 10$ per tab.

[GroktheCube]

At 10mg/l, you need 760mg. For 20 gallons.

[tassod]

so if i get 3 250mg tabs i should be good to go correct? I just need to dose it once?

[GroktheCube]

Yep, as long as you don't expose the tank to much light or run carbon. I might get an extra dose or two, just in case. Ambient room light won't break it down very much, but tank lights will.

[tassod]

cool thanks, miminum i can get is 8 tabs anyway so i'll have some extra. I'm hoping i can save my bristletooth whitetail tang

[GroktheCube]

Have you done an FWD for him?

You suspect velvet? My understanding is that at 10 mg/l parasites are all rendered inert within 48 hours. I'm not sure about how quickly a 40 mg/l bath works, you'd need to ask someone more knowledgeable like alprazo, but if you think the fish is in very dire straights it might be worth it.

[tassod]

i haven't because i dont think he will survive it given the weakened state he is in..i thought he was dead at one point. i dont think its velvet because he would have been long gone by now if it was. I've been giving him Cipro for 2 days now and it seems to be helping a bit

[tassod]

here's a pic of him:

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y420/tassod/IMG_1837_zpsb8225b6f.jpg (http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/tassod/media/IMG_1837_zpsb8225b6f.jpg.html)

[MorganAtlanta]

Contraindications:
...
possibly some wrasse



Any ideas which wrasses? I just put several different caribbean wrasses in QT. My normal protocol is to do a round of CP while in QT, but seeing this post made me pause.

[alprazo]

I lost melanurus wrasses in the past. No issues with juvenile tautog, tuskfish and Maori wrasse. Tassod - PM me if you have additional questions about your specific issue.

[tassod]

my CP is out of stock so now i have to wait. My tang during the day more or less swims around but at night, he just lies on his side and barely moves and is breathing pretty heavily..not sure how much longer he's going to last.

[zland1]

my melanurus wrasse made it through around 9 weeks of CP while i left my tank fallow

[tassod]

i was just able to pick up my CP prescription, i am going to dose 3 250mg tablets for a 20g QT. i have some questions before i start:

1. Over the last day and half, i have lowered the salinity in this tank to right now being about 1.012 to help out this fish. He actually seems to be doing better since i did this. Is there a problem with using CP now since i did this?

2. I have been using Cipro and Septra combination in this tank since this past Monday evening and doing 50% water changes daily and re-dosing. Is it a problem to use CP with these other meds?

Your advice is greatly appreciated.

[Deinonych]

i was just able to pick up my CP prescription, i am going to dose 3 250mg tablets for a 20g QT

If you are doing tablets, bear in mind there are likely some binding agents present. This will reduce the total amount of CP in each tablet. You can call the pharmacy to find out what percentage CP each pill contains.

[tassod]

Well i dosed it tonight so we'll see how it goes. He was doing better before i dosed probably from lowering the salinity but could also be the Cipro and Septra. I did not re-dose those 2 though tonight. So if i understand correctly, i am to leave him be now for 30 days in no light and i dont need to do any water changes either correct?

[tassod]

I'm pretty impressed with CP so far, after almost 48hrs of dosing this, he no longer lays on his side and breathing heavy. He swims normally now, no heavy breathing and for the first time in over a week...he is eating tonight.

[Dmorty217]

I know light degrades CP but what about light from a ceiling fan a few feet away? This is the only light that will be used to observe the fish

[martouf13]

I know light degrades CP but what about light from a ceiling fan a few feet away? This is the only light that will be used to observe the fish

From what I have seen others post is that ambient lighting from another source as long as it's limited shouldn't cause problems.

[Dmorty217]

From what I have seen others post is that ambient lighting from another source as long as it's limited shouldn't cause problems.

The one light is on about 10-12 hrs a day but it's still pretty dark in the tank

[martouf13]

The one light is on about 10-12 hrs a day but it's still pretty dark in the tank

You are probably fine I would think but if you want to be sure you could always cover your tank with a dark sheet or something to block any extra light.

[Dmorty217]

You are probably fine I would think but if you want to be sure you could always cover your tank with a dark sheet or something to block any extra light.

Right. Problem is how are you suppose to observe the fish and see if they are showing signs of disease or ailment when the tank is so dark? I wish there was a easy way to know what the concentration of CP is or at what par it is that degrades the medicine?

[martouf13]

Right. Problem is how are you suppose to observe the fish and see if they are showing signs of disease or ailment when the tank is so dark? I wish there was a easy way to know what the concentration of CP is or at what par it is that degrades the medicine?

From what I understand it is UV light that breaks down the CP. So you don't want direct sunlight going into your tank or have the tanks lights on or a UV light on. You could do the sheet thing and only take it off to observe the fish? The front and back are covered on mine. Only the sides are open so the amount of light my fish get is minimal.

[Dmorty217]

From what I understand it is UV light that breaks down the CP. So you don't want direct sunlight going into your tank or have the tanks lights on or a UV light on. You could do the sheet thing and only take it off to observe the fish? The front and back are covered on mine. Only the sides are open so the amount of light my fish get is minimal.

My tank has no natural light what so ever and the only light is provided by 1 60watt light bulb on a ceiling fan (have the others unscrewed) ignore the thumbs down, some how I fat fingered that on the iphone

[martouf13]

My tank has no natural light what so ever and the only light is provided by 1 60watt light bulb on a ceiling fan (have the others unscrewed) ignore the thumbs down, some how I fat fingered that on the iphone

I did some research on levels of UV light that come from incandescent bulbs. The levels from them are really low. It is fluorescent bulbs that give off more UV and why you don't want them on in your tank. I would think you are ok then. The UV light from one 60w incandescent bulb will be extremely low. Being as far away as it is I doubt it has any bearing on the CP in the tank.

[MarkGrant]

I have safely dose or treated the following with CP:

Amquel/Prime
Nitrofurazone
Praziquantil
Enrofloxacin
Dimilin
Hyposalinity
Erythromycin
Doxycycline
Tricaine

Has anyone tried CP successfully with Kanamycin or Neomycin? I'm thinking that if it works with Erythromycin chances are good.

[tc2007]

I am wondering if the moonlight mode on my Kessil A350W would hurt the medication?

[ca1ore]

Does anyone know if the CP at National fish Pharm is a good source, or does it come from the same questionable ebay source?

[alprazo]

I am wondering if the moonlight mode on my Kessil A350W would hurt the medication?

Possible because the degradation occurs in the near UV spectrum

[alprazo]

Does anyone know if the CP at National fish Pharm is a good source, or does it come from the same questionable ebay source?

My guess - the EBay seller bought a kilo off national fish pharm and is selling it. National fish pharma is likely buying it from China.

[TitanCi]

No success with the CP from ebay. Ich appeared twice in my tank during treatment, second time being the worst for my sohal. Ttm it is.



If I had to try cp again, I would try ick shield powder from NLS.



however, there was white film and weird smell from my tank, so maybe the cp wasn't pure or potent enough.

[GTR]

I've had more success with CP for prevention than for treatment.

[Dmorty217]

The eBay stuff is crap, I learned this first hand. I am confident that the NLS ich shield powder is the real deal. One thing I'm confused on is that hermits aren't affected by CP so then if it molts is it not negatively affected by CP? I ask because after using the eBay crap for 30 days then I got the ich shield powder and used that at a higher than 30mg/g which caused secondary infections in my fish from prolonged CP exposure I'm assuming. When I went to tear down my QT system I had setup (300g worth) I found amphipods crawling all over the rock in the tank even though it was enough to kill my fish. For the record I took the rock that was in the CP out of the tank and let it sit for 2 weeks and dry out. I didn't rinse or treat it with anything to remove the CP and put it in my 220g mixed reef with no problems what so ever

[TitanCi]

^interesting. I've read your post regarding this. I am not sure what to make of it. It's just very possible the medication doesn't affect those but fish.

Alprazo- thanks for the follow up email! [emoji16] I appreciate it! :)

[tc2007]

Ick Shield (NLS) on Amazon. It will be expensive but you know it comes from a known and reliable source.

[Yellow Eyes]

Is ick shield just CP medicated food?

Also I bought some of the CP from eBay, is it an algicide? Can I take some chaeto and mix it with the CP and see if it kills it off?

[TitanCi]

Is ick shield just CP medicated food?

Also I bought some of the CP from eBay, is it an algicide? Can I take some chaeto and mix it with the CP and see if it kills it off?


Both. Powder for bath and medicated food.

Ebay one didn't work for me.

[Dmorty217]

Is ick shield just CP medicated food?

Also I bought some of the CP from eBay, is it an algicide? Can I take some chaeto and mix it with the CP and see if it kills it off?

It won't kill the algae, at least the stuff from eBay won't. All it killed for me was a lot of bristleworms, after I was done with treatment I put lights above my tank and had horrible algae a few days later. Ich shield powder will kill algae and is much more potent than the eBay crap. I used the eBay stuff at 50mg/g and everything was fine. I used ich shield powder at 40mg/g instead of the 30 mg/g that recommended and killed my Red Sea Regal and Mitratus BF within 36 hrs. Not sure if that was from 40+ days of CP exposure that caused secondary infections which killed my fish or if it was the 40mg/g of ich shield powder. Now that I think about it I believe it was the more powerful CP since the two fish I mentioned died so quickly. All my other fish slowly wasted away which was said to watch happen

[TitanCi]

It won't kill the algae, at least the stuff from eBay won't. All it killed for me was a lot of bristleworms, after I was done with treatment I put lights above my tank and had horrible algae a few days later. Ich shield powder will kill algae and is much more potent than the eBay crap. I used the eBay stuff at 50mg/g and everything was fine. I used ich shield powder at 40mg/g instead of the 30 mg/g that recommended and killed my Red Sea Regal and Mitratus BF within 36 hrs. Not sure if that was from 40+ days of CP exposure that caused secondary infections which killed my fish or if it was the 40mg/g of ich shield powder. Now that I think about it I believe it was the more powerful CP since the two fish I mentioned died so quickly. All my other fish slowly wasted away which was said to watch happen


DM- the seller was kind enough to refund me for the lack of success with his CP.

He also confirmed his CP source is from Fishman, so it appears at least this batch is suspect. Thus, at this point probably NLS IS or straight up from a vet is going to be best.

No more ebay meds. Someone here put it best: would you buy your own meds off ebay?

:)

[Dmorty217]

DM- the seller was kind enough to refund me for the lack of success with his CP.

He also confirmed his CP source is from Fishman, so it appears at least this batch is suspect. Thus, at this point probably NLS IS or straight up from a vet is going to be best.

No more ebay meds. Someone here put it best: would you buy your own meds off ebay?

:)

That was nice of him. I have a script sitting at my pharmacy for CP in pill form but the pills have fillers in them and for the price of the pills I could buy a few bottles of the ich shield powder

[GTR]

We bought 1 kg from fishman and it worked fine. I use it as a preventative in holding systems and not really as a treatment. As far as algae goes it also greatly reduced the need to algae scrub the systems.

[laga77]

I just received 30 grams of CP in powder form from an animal pharmacy in Scottsdale AZ. You can look them up. That was a minimum size order. My vet called in the script for me and I ordered over the phone. $40 with shipping . We were in his office for him to look at my Lab. Showed him a printed out thread about CP from this site. He checked it out and called it in.

[Dustin Thompson]

Should top off water for a treatment tank be dosed? Or does the chloroquine precipitate back into the water? I am currently treating all my fish for ich in a hospital tank.

[Dmorty217]

Should top off water for a treatment tank be dosed? Or does the chloroquine precipitate back into the water? I am currently treating all my fish for ich in a hospital tank.

Top off water isn't necessary to have CP in provided your evap rate isn't large per wk. Also lighting is important not to break down the medication

[mujtaba]

I knew i had ich in my tank for quite some time but existing fish (Yellow tang, regal tang and a fox face) might have got resistance. I introduced Emperor angel after proper QT but it got infected very badly. I treated my DT with Chloroquine phosphate after removing most of the live rock. Emperor started to recover but regal tang and foxface seemed really stressed and stayed in their caves for a week untill i decided to pull them out. They both had really inflated bellies. I immediately put the 2 in QT without CP, where Foxface recovered by regal tang could not. Has anyone experienced this with CP?

[Dmorty217]

I knew i had ich in my tank for quite some time but existing fish (Yellow tang, regal tang and a fox face) might have got resistance. I introduced Emperor angel after proper QT but it got infected very badly. I treated my DT with Chloroquine phosphate after removing most of the live rock. Emperor started to recover but regal tang and foxface seemed really stressed and stayed in their caves for a week untill i decided to pull them out. They both had really inflated bellies. I immediately put the 2 in QT without CP, where Foxface recovered by regal tang could not. Has anyone experienced this with CP?

I killed a perfectly healthy Red Sea Regal and Mitratus butterfly with CP... Still not sure how it happened but it did. Certain fish I believe TTM would be much more beneficial for and I would put a Regal angel in that group. With what you just said it just confirms my thought. I only had the regal for 3 days before starting treatment, by day 2 of treatment the regal was dead

[snorvich]

For ich, TTM is probably preferred. But for velvet CP is much preferred.

[Dustin Thompson]

Thanks, Dmorty. I am not running any lights, and have most of the tank covered.

[Aquattro]

Any experience or observations with appetite suppression? I treated today at 15mg/L and my anthias have stopped eating. Moorish Idol still chowing down. Another guy locally has anthias in QT that was pre-dosed with CP, they haven't eaten since introduction.

[mujtaba]

Yes, all my fish except emperor angel stopped eating, which include Yellow tang, regal tang, fox face and ocellaris clown after dosing CP.

[GTR]

I've never seen a feeding problem with Bartletts. I've used it on all new arrivals for over a year. My dosage target is only 10mg/l.

[Aquattro]

I'm using 15mg/L. and haven't had this happen with other species, but the Lyretails seem to be affected. Therefore, not sure how to treat for 2 weeks if they aren't going to eat :)

[alprazo]

Where did you buy your CP?

[Aquattro]

Where did you buy your CP?

Chemical supply, Aesar or something like that. I used to use fishman stuff but read too many posts lately where quality was suspect.

[andy01748]

Where did you buy your CP?


New Life Spectrum Ich Shield Powder is CP. Ignore the marketing name and use for other diseases!

[Darrell Brady]

has anybody tried ick shield powder in the dt with shrimp and snails. what was the out come?

[jbvdhp]

has anybody tried ick shield powder in the dt with shrimp and snails. what was the out come?


I haven't. But I think I read on wwm that someone said it didn't affect their crabs, but snails didn't do well. I wouldn't risk shrimp with it.

[Dmorty217]

I haven't. But I think I read on wwm that someone said it didn't affect their crabs, but snails didn't do well. I wouldn't risk shrimp with it.

snails will not make it... Basically anything with a exoskeleton outside of fish will survive CP

[mujtaba]

i treated my DT with CP and all snails that i couldn't pull out died

[Aquattro]

Not sure if there was something amiss with my CP, but 5 anthias stopped eating after 12 hours, and my Moorish Idol turned really blotchy.
No NH3/NO2, so no idea. Did a 50% water change and added a ton of carbon, all fish are now doing much better after 48 hours of no CP. I'm going to re-evaluate it's use :)

[alprazo]

I've never tried with anthias, but no issues with 2 idols.

[Aquattro]

I've never tried with anthias, but no issues with 2 idols.

I've read some other posts about anthias not eating, so expected. But the MI was literally marbled looking. Weird. Fine now, but scared to use the CP on him again. I'll observe for a bit and add to DT (which in all likelihood is not ich free)

[jbvdhp]

Not sure if there was something amiss with my CP, but 5 anthias stopped eating after 12 hours, and my Moorish Idol turned really blotchy.

No NH3/NO2, so no idea. Did a 50% water change and added a ton of carbon, all fish are now doing much better after 48 hours of no CP. I'm going to re-evaluate it's use :)


My set of tierra/resplendent did the same. Then they all perished. Sad. Nothing could get them to eat afterwards. They got so thin.

[Aquattro]

My set of tierra/resplendent did the same. Then they all perished. Sad. Nothing could get them to eat afterwards. They got so thin.

After removal of CP, they're starting to nibble again. I'm hoping that they'll be right back to their piggy selves in a day or two.

[Arringar]

I'm preparing to treat my banded cat shark with CP. Going the ick shield powder route. Anyone have any advice or warnings?

I'm treating all my other fish with cupramine in a separate QT. The DT has starfish that I don't think I can maintain elsewhere and they're already upset from the Revive I've been using. Anyone know how CP affects starfish?

[Aquattro]

After removal of CP, they're starting to nibble again. I'm hoping that they'll be right back to their piggy selves in a day or two.

I ended up losing all my fish in QT. I think what happened is that I had a lot of "feeder" zoas in there when I treated and they released toxins. Sounds strange, but it's all I've got. Don't leave zoas in treatment tanks in case I'm not crazy!

[Arringar]

Also, am I going to need a gram scale to measure this ick shield powder?

Sorry, I'm new to the CP method.

[Dmorty217]

Not sure if there was something amiss with my CP, but 5 anthias stopped eating after 12 hours, and my Moorish Idol turned really blotchy.
No NH3/NO2, so no idea. Did a 50% water change and added a ton of carbon, all fish are now doing much better after 48 hours of no CP. I'm going to re-evaluate it's use :)

Not all fish even ones that are known to be unaffected by CP are the same just like humans aren't. Some fish will just not make it through CP and like Alprazo said to me before about this same subject "then they don't belong in your DT"

[Dmorty217]

Also, am I going to need a gram scale to measure this ick shield powder?

Sorry, I'm new to the CP method.

yes you will

[Arringar]

Ok. I got one on Amazon just in case so I'm covered. Thanks!

[Humongous]

How much light is too much during the 30 day period? I have fish that won't come out unless its bright. I don't want to starve them as they hide in caves.

[Dmorty217]

It's the UV light that you have to worry about so light from lamps and such in your home don't really pose a problem but bright light that comes from most of the fixtures for marine aquariums will have the degrading effects from UV light. As far as how much is too much, I'm not really sure anyone knows for sure. Machines that you can use to test the CP in water are expensive

[Mishri]

Well, my powder blue tang damaged his eye while glancing and it looked like it was getting infected. I dosed melafix and pimafix along with CP... I guess we'll see how that works out for me. I couldn't find anyone else who has tried it. I'm not sure how popular those are for infections.. I've read mixed reviews, decided to try it because most people say doesn't hurt, might not help, sometimes it works...

[Dmorty217]

Well, my powder blue tang damaged his eye while glancing and it looked like it was getting infected. I dosed melafix and pimafix along with CP... I guess we'll see how that works out for me. I couldn't find anyone else who has tried it. I'm not sure how popular those are for infections.. I've read mixed reviews, decided to try it because most people say doesn't hurt, might not help, sometimes it works...

Be sure and keep a close eye on ammonia

[Mishri]

yeah I suspect when I get home I'll have to do a large water change.

[alprazo]

If you have every gone fishing, you should remember they still bite at night. Many times even better then the day. Moon or not. They really don't need much light.

[alprazo]

If you have every gone fishing, you should remember they still bite at night. Many times even better then the day. Moon or not. They really don't need much light.

[Dmorty217]

If you have every gone fishing, you should remember they still bite at night. Many times even better then the day. Moon or not. They really don't need much light.

Great point, and a very valid one

[Mishri]

I've never fished the ocean, but I know there are fish adapted for night, for day, and for dusk/dawn in the ocean. In rivers/lakes dusk/dawn tends to be the best time. But for our reef fish most are daytime feeders, and have poor night/dusk/dawn vision, which is why they hide(from predators, which usually have good dawn/dusk and/or night vision).

[alprazo]

I can tell you, from both experience fishing and putting aquarium fish through CP - they need very very very little light.

In my old house I had my sump in the basement (no windows) and pumped water into the tank on the second floor. My watchman goby must have gone over the overflow - because when I broke down the tank to move after years of not seeing the goby, I found it alive and well in the sump.

My old treatment tank was a trashcan. I would keep the lid loosely on so they could not jump out and just enough for the airline to fit through. Again - very minimal light and they did fine. Like all animals, they need sleep but they rapidly adjust to low light conditions and feed when hungry.

If you have fished fresh water - you can catch a bass in the morning, midday, evening and night full or new moon. Salt is pretty much the same. Some species like wrasse like to bed down and hide at night, but that said - I have even caught a tautog (type of wrasse) at night.

[Humongous]

So ambient lights are not a problem then, I'm just trying to figure out what I can get away with, without blocking out windows etc. are moon lights bad?

Since it's a potent algicide, when it all dies off, is skimming still a good choice or will it strip the CP?

[Dmorty217]

Ambient light is fine, not 100% about the skimming. I will let Alprazo answer that

[Arringar]

I'm assuming removing the caulerpa and chaetomorpha from my Refugium is a good idea? [emoji4]

[Dmorty217]

I'm assuming removing the caulerpa and chaetomorpha from my Refugium is a good idea? [emoji4]

CP is a great algacide so yes remove any macro you don't want to die

[GTR]

I wonder how much light is too much light. I know if the UV is run while using it your water will soon be yellow. Is it happening to some degree with more moderate light and I just don't see it?

[Dmorty217]

I used a single 60w light bulb that was in a ceiling fan above the tank I used CP in and it didn't effect anything

[GTR]

I have a system right now that looks like it's been dosed with nitrofurazon. Someone turned on the UV while I was off. I cant even test for copper until I get it cleared up. 25% WC and 20# of carbon run passively for 4 days did nothing.

[Dmorty217]

I had a similar problem when I turned lights back on after treatment the tank was so full of algae you could barely see the fish. Huge water changes is the only thing that fixed the problem and I turned the lights off. This was after using the eBay CP which was crap

[Brando457]

I'm going to be dosing ick shield in my 180g fowlr w/ 75g sump + 40g fuge. The instructions say 21 days of treatment, but the first post says 30 days.

Should I do 21 per the instructions or 30? Also anything I need to be aware of besides limiting any lights to the tank?

Thanks,

Brandon

[Dmorty217]

Anything without a exoskeleton dies... 30 days yes

[Brando457]

I'm going losing my cuc since I need to replenish it anyway.

I'm doing another 25g water change tonight to drop the nitrates then will do a 30 day treatment. hopefully everyone is okay!

[Arringar]

I recently dosed with NLS Ick Shield. It did the job, the ich is absolutely gone. I removed all reef critters except hermits and did a 4 week treatment. I've removed it with a water change, carbon and purigen. Put all my reef critters back and they're all fine. But then I had a massive GHA explosion (which I have NEVER had before) and my rocks give off this slime/mucous at night.

All in all, I would repeat this if necessary because it is better than the alternative, but be aware you may have some algae problems when the CP is removed. It is as if it put the algae on pause and the second the CP is gone the algae growth fast forwards 4 weeks. Im wondering if this is a result of removing it abruptly rather than over time.

[Martini5788]

Is cp safe to treat and eel with? I have a golden dwarf moray. Also, I haven't been able to find if I should turn off the skimmer or not?

[alprazo]

Yes, I have done it over a dozen times with absolutely no issues.

[alprazo]

I have decreased my QT CP treatment regimen to 10 days t 75 F. This is for new fish in a newly setup treatment tank. Reviewing again the life cycle and the way CP appears to treat the parasite, 10 should be sufficient for both ich and velvet.

[Dmorty217]

I have decreased my QT CP treatment regimen to 10 days t 75 F. This is for new fish in a newly setup treatment tank. Reviewing again the life cycle and the way CP appears to treat the parasite, 10 should be sufficient for both ich and velvet.

Thanks for this. 10 days anyone can do

[Martini5788]

Yes, I have done it over a dozen times with absolutely no issues.


Yes to the eel, or yes to the skimmer?

[alprazo]

In the next month, I hope to bring home an infected fish and show that treatment takes only 10 days. Will post as I go through the process.

[alprazo]

Yes to the eel, or yes to the skimmer?

Yes to the eel. Never a problem.

[Martini5788]

Yes to the eel. Never a problem.


Okay awesome. Am I correct in assuming that I should turn the skimmer off? I am going to treat my main display. I am currently in the process of trying to remove all the snails in the tank. No corals or any other invert. I started noticing some scrTching the other day and heavy breathing on occasion. So before it gets out
Of control I am going to treat. What is your recommended time for treating as of now? Is it still 30 days outside of qt without any symptoms?

[alprazo]

Yes 30d outside of QT. Skimmer off and monitor NH3

[Martini5788]

Ok. Thank you so much!!

[snorvich]

In the next month, I hope to bring home an infected fish and show that treatment takes only 10 days. Will post as I go through the process.

A worthwhile experiment. However I am not comfortable going from the specific to a general recommendation without significant trials.

[HumbleFish]

In the next month, I hope to bring home an infected fish and show that treatment takes only 10 days. Will post as I go through the process.

I'm currently doing the same thing. One test subject - Dogface Puffer with ich, treated with CP for 10 days - is still ich free after several months. Looking for a second test subject now.

[kenith]

In the next month, I hope to bring home an infected fish and show that treatment takes only 10 days. Will post as I go through the process.

Thanks for the info, it's been very helpful so far. Did you dose the cp at 10mg/l or higher for this trial?

[rssjsb]

I ended up losing all my fish in QT. I think what happened is that I had a lot of "feeder" zoas in there when I treated and they released toxins. Sounds strange, but it's all I've got. Don't leave zoas in treatment tanks in case I'm not crazy!I don't think this is the least bit far-fetched. CP is highly toxic to sessile invertebrates. It was three months before my 185 could support even the devil-spawn GSP after I treated it.

[Dustin Thompson]

Hello alprazo and everyone:

I had great results with new life spectrum ick shield when my DT came down with ich. I did the full 21 days that was recommended in the instructions. I actually started off with the chloroquine off ebay that others have used and predictably it failed. However, after the ick shield, all my previously sick fish are back in my display and all is well.

I bought a jawfish and have him in quarantine, and have seen him flash which makes me nervous. The tank he is in has a well established biological filter as well as a bit of algae. If I introduce the ick shield now will it create an ammonia spike? What will be the result of the algae "die-off?".

Thanks again everyone.

[Dmorty217]

The algae die off unless it's a lot won't hurt anything. When I treated with rock I had issues with all the bristleworms dying and causing ammonia. You will see ammonia within 24-48 hrs if your going to. Get a ammonia alert badge would be my recommendation

[Dustin Thompson]

Excellent! I plan on doing a water change before I dose the ick shield. There isn't a ton of algae, and there is no LR in this tank.

Thanks for the input Dmorty!

[alprazo]

Important note. I keep forgetting to post this. Mollusks are unaffected by CP. I had clams, and oysters go through several courses of CP totally unaffected.

[Dustin Thompson]

So on a somewhat separate note, the last time I medicated with the ick shield product, I used one of the 2.5 gallon containers to hold some RO DI that had the ick shield powder in it. It had that solution in it for probably close to a month.

I am wondering if the ick shield would have absorbed into the plastic of the container? And if so, would it be a concern that it will leach back out into any water in the container? It wasn't expensive, $8 or so, but my Scottish ancestry forbids me from throwing something like that away:)

[Dmorty217]

I doubt that is absorbed into the plastic, I would just rinse well and use it if it were me. Alprazo, thanks for letting us know that mollusks are unaffected. What kind of clams, or is it safe to assume all? So on the list of inverts that are unaffected by CP is: Isopods, shrimp, hermits, (I would guess reef lobsters, since they also have a exoskeleton) and mollusks. Anyone have anything to add to the list?

[alprazo]

I had kept clams and oysters, from the supermarket in my 125 qt - that I keep running. I thought I pulled them all before a treatment, but broke down the tank and found multiple clams in the sand and two oysters behind a rock. They must have gone through four, 30 day courses of CP. I cracked them and they all looked healthy. I just forgot to post it until now.

[Fish Bowl]

I would assume Photosynthetic Clams would probably suffer the same way corals would (death of zooxanthellae) so that probably won't work out too well.

[ThRoewer]

Does that mean non photosynthetic corals could survive it too?

[rssjsb]

Does that mean non photosynthetic corals could survive it too?No. It will kill corals.

[alprazo]

I would assume Photosynthetic Clams would probably suffer the same way corals would (death of zooxanthellae) so that probably won't work out too well.

Good point.

[snorvich]

I would assume Photosynthetic Clams would probably suffer the same way corals would (death of zooxanthellae) so that probably won't work out too well.

I agree.

[Mishri]

Just an FYI: I Had no luck treating freshwater ich with CP. -specifically New Life Spectrum Ich Shield. batch of 8 clown loaches, over a week they all displayed white spots. This could have just been a strong strain.. but it did wipe out my freshwater tank... looking at cichlids now, as I got rid of all my plants but anubias. (Removed them during treatment for fear it would kill them). So, for freshwater treatment i'll stick to the old tried and working methods.

[Shark.Bait]

I have decreased my QT CP treatment regimen to 10 days t 75 F. This is for new fish in a newly setup treatment tank. Reviewing again the life cycle and the way CP appears to treat the parasite, 10 should be sufficient for both ich and velvet.

Any updates on this? What dosageeas used during your 10 day treatment?

[alprazo]

For the 10 day therapy I use 40mg / gal

[alprazo]

I wanted to post that I have had an outbreak of ich in newly acquired PBTs despite using CP. They started showing signs of ich two days after arrival. New tank, fresh water and CP from a vet pharmacy that was ~ 2 years old and had worked before. Kept in a dry, cool, dark cabinet.

I added pharmaceutical grade, branded CP (Avloclor) at a dose of 20 mg/gal and after one day they have not worsened. Will update.

[Shark.Bait]

I wanted to post that I have had an outbreak of ich in newly acquired PBTs despite using CP. They started showing signs of ich two days after arrival. New tank, fresh water and CP from a vet pharmacy that was ~ 2 years old and had worked before. Kept in a dry, cool, dark cabinet.

I added pharmaceutical grade, branded CP (Avloclor) at a dose of 20 mg/gal and after one day they have not worsened. Will update.


Is the 20mg/gal a second round of CP? What dose and length did the first treatment fail at?

[alprazo]

Visually the tangs are free of disease. They immediately went into 40mg/gal of CP in a newly set up tank and despite treatment of the tangs, they started to show classic signs of ich within the first few days of arrival. They became dusted quickly but never showed signs of respiratory distress. I added branded pharmaceutical CP at a dose of 20mg/gal without removing the current CP or doing any water changes. Since that time the disease progression stopped and they all have cleared visually. I have never had to dose above 40mg/gal and believe the the lack efficacy of the first CP is from old product.

[Shark.Bait]

Visually the tangs are free of disease. They immediately went into 40mg/gal of CP in a newly set up tank and despite treatment of the tangs, they started to show classic signs of ich within the first few days of arrival. They became dusted quickly but never showed signs of respiratory distress. I added branded pharmaceutical CP at a dose of 20mg/gal without removing the current CP or doing any water changes. Since that time the disease progression stopped and they all have cleared visually. I have never had to dose above 40mg/gal and believe the the lack efficacy of the first CP is from old product.

Thanks for the update. Have you found the 10 days in QT at 40mg/gal to be effective with ich?

[Shark.Bait]

double post

[kelp47]

I hope it's okay that I ask this here. I see that you have been testing various time frames with CP treatment, so I wanted to know what your recommendation would be for visibly infected fish in a fresh QT setup.

I have a couple of clowns that appeared to have ich (though for some reason TTM completely failed for me). After trying TTM, I set up a sanitized tank with the recommended does of Ick Shield Powder and put them here. The following day, every single spot was gone, which really impressed me! I understand the importance of following through with full treatments, so I intended to go the full 21 days as instructed by the meds. But I'm wondering if this is really necessary for fish who began meds in a freshly set up QT.

I've also been advised to move them to another fresh tank after the treatment for 2 weeks of observation, which sounds reasonable.

[sbreefer]

is there another more accessible drug that works as well as CP? there are way more common modern anti malarials out there now.

[kelp47]

is there another more accessible drug that works as well as CP? there are way more common modern anti malarials out there now.

I'm sure the expert will chime in soon, but I can tell you that Ick Shield Powder has CP for the main ingredient and is readily available. I bought a bottle of it on Amazon (see link below). You dose once and leave the meds in for 21 days, and you just have to be sure to medicate any water used for water changes. Tip: Since I don't have a scale, I asked a local pharmacist to measure out my initial dose and a few others for water changes and he did it for no charge.

I am on day 9 of treatment with two clowns in QT, but their spots were actually gone the day after I moved them to the medicated tank!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MNQWACU?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00

[scuzy]

Ick shield contains cp or a derivative. Used it on some platinum clowns

[GTR]

New and interesting situation.
This system has been running CP since April of this year. Twice in that time the system has been bleached. After the bleaching I've never much problem with ammonia and never show nitrite as the system cycles again. I usually isolate the sand filter and ammonia tower unless I'm stopping a major outbreak.

This time the maintenance crew decided to turn on the UV unit and by the time I discovered it the system looked as though it had been treated with Furan-2. Added about 2 gallons of carbon to strip out the color and spent CP. Now 4 days later the system is measuring nitrites in the 1.0 ppm range. The system is running at less than 10% holding capacity so this makes no sense to me.

[ThRoewer]

One of my Starcki damsels seems to have ich, though the diagnosis isn't 100% clear yet. I'm likely trying CP first as I have no free tanks for TTM right now and the 5 fish in there (2 starcki males, a pair of neon dottybacks and a fridmani male) are too aggressive to each other to be put into a tank without dividers and breeder boxes.

The starcki likely caught it because he spent a weekend in shipping
The neon dottyback male was the one who brought it in but seems to be clear now.

[Dactylopterus]

Can anyone confirm if New Life Spectrum Powder Ick-Shield is actually CP?
If not, what's the protocol to use it as an alternative?
Has this been used with success?

[Mishri]

Yes, it is a form of CP, I've used it with success. Some people say the stuff you get from a veterinarian, if it's powder and 99% pure, is a much better formulation.

[kelp47]

Dactylopterus, I've also used it with success. It's kind of a pain having to break it down into small doses for a small QT (I solicited help from a local pharmacy), but probably no more hassle than TTM.

[Arringar]

Old thread, I know, but this issue is always relevant and current for someone.

For those using the New Life Ick-Shield powder, it does work but be aware it will stain any clear tubing a bright yellow. It will also stain clear silicone yellow. Just something to be aware of for anyone who uses it on their DT.