To Refugium or not

[redcoatd]

Hi,

New to all this saltwater stuff...and very confused over sump and refugium options.

I have 75 gal tank that I purchased 2nd hand, 100 lb live rock. Came with 10 gal sump with bioballs on one side, basic protein skimmer (no idea what make/model).

I'm trying to upgrade the sump to 20 or 29 gallons, and was thinking of using the 10 gal as a separate refugium, gravity feeding the sump.

However, the guy at my LFS suggested I don't really need a refugium (and that it's a lot of maintenance), and would be fine for fish and corrals with just good protein skimmer and bag of carbon in sump.

Please could someone advise?! Do I need a refugium? What are my best options at this point?

cheers

David

[moe458]

i think it's mostly a personal opinion when it comes down to these things.
Bioballs i don't they are good in saltwater as they become nitrate factories over the period of time.

Refugium is good to have and it saves you alot of money in long run. only if i knew a year ago i would have saved alot on GFO and reactors and etc with all dosing.

If you have refugium in long run your ph stays in line and also the chaeto's you grow in there will do a export of nurtients and you won't have to worry about mechanical stuff like biopellets, reactors, gfo etc...list goes on which costs money. alot of people run chaetos with reactors depending on the system and what you have in the system.

ofcourse refugium is not necessary to have but it's good to have. it's like i would love to drive a porche to work but do i need it......hmmm..sure why not..LOL.
You can start off with what you have later think about how you want to pimp the system up ;)

[thenewguy997]

I dont think you need one but it has benefits and after setting one up i think it makws everything easier

[sk8ter20art]

A refugium/sump is also a good place to banish unfriendly creatures. I currently have a hitchhiker crab that has black tipped claws who I banished there to see how big he gets. Or if you have a new fish that is a bully and need to re-home it.

[Crooked Reef]

Not needed but it helps. You can grow cheato in it for additional nutrient export. Add live rock rubble or a remote dab if you wish to boost your biological filter. More water means a more stable and forgiving system. Pod production means free food. In my opinion the benefits far outweigh the amount of maintenance that the guy at the lfs is talking about. By chance was he trying to sell you chemical additives that replace a fuge like nopox or something?

[rfgonzo]

Depends on what you want to keep in it, 10 gallons is not a very large volume, you can use one, but not sure if it will be beneficial that small.

[pufferpoison]

IMO, I couldn't (or better wording "wouldn't) want to not have a fuge.

So many positives and so few negatives. For me, I almost like gazing into the fuge as much as the display tank. I also want to get a mantis for the fuge. Totally worth it, IMO

[dante411x]

I wouldn't have a reef tank without one. Fish only you can do, but even then it keeps a lot of nutrients in check with minimal effort on your part, so why not?

[toku58]

Well I'm in the process of setting up my tank. (First one in years) you could get by with the minimum. Like you LFS suggested?
But, the more I learn the more I realized doing it right from the start will save you frustration in the future. In the long run you might as well take the time and pay the extra money to do it right.
Because once the tank is set up? If you decide you want to upgrade anything? It would be a nightmare to do so!
Originally I was just going with HOB filters and skimmer. Sand and rock I could grab from the local beach. (to save money) and the basic stand that came with the tank.
I finally realized that if I do it right the first time it would save me the headache in the long run. And I could have more enjoyment, rather then more work trying to stay ahead of problems that a poorly set up tank can have.
Do your homework and don't rush into anything. Make sure it's exactly what you want. Because once the tank is filled. It'll be a real headache to make changes.

Good Luck!

[davocean]

For your size tank and the ability to have a decent size fuge I see great benefit.
I would go as big of a sump as you can, as big of a fuge as you can as well.
A decent size fuge will help pull some nutrients(though I would still make/leave room for reactors) and you will benefit from less PH drop if you run a reverse light cycle.
Your size tank w/ that much LR and a good fuge should produce enough pods for a mandarin if you wish, or benefit other pod eaters.
I would not be w/out one.
Post pics of skimmer to check for ID, you should know what it is at least.

[ryeguyy84]

Agree with everyone above and will add that you can make some side money selling chaeto. Mine doubles about every month or so and I cut it into 3 sandwich bags and sell them on ebay for $15 each shipped. My fuge buys me supplements or a frag every month.

[Joel_155]

A fuge is a good method of nutrient exportation if we'll maintained. If you plan on using the current sump don't feed the fuge with the drain from the tank. This basically makes the fuge a dumping ground and it will get very dirty and be counter productive ( I set my first tank up this way and it worked horribly).


There are other methods of doing the same thing ( nutrient exportation )though. You will need some way to remove the excess nutrients in the tank otherwise green hair algae will go nuts in the tank.

[TylerHaworth]

My current system doesn't have a macroalgae based refugium, but all prior systems have utilized them...

I enjoy not having to do the fuge related maintenance, but I do miss the small amount of natural export it provides.

Really a wash for me, if I had unlimited room I would definitely use one however on my current build I felt the related issues overshadowed the benefit.

[ryeguyy84]

A fuge is a good method of nutrient exportation if we'll maintained. If you plan on using the current sump don't feed the fuge with the drain from the tank. This basically makes the fuge a dumping ground and it will get very dirty and be counter productive ( I set my first tank up this way and it worked horribly).


There are other methods of doing the same thing ( nutrient exportation )though. You will need some way to remove the excess nutrients in the tank otherwise green hair algae will go nuts in the tank.


This is good advise, I have to figure this out myself my fuge bottom is full of detritus

[Joel_155]

Yeah on my first setup I had a dirty fuge and was running biopellets at the same time. Totally inefficient as both items are different methods of nutrient exportation and don't work together.

[ryeguyy84]

I just looked at mine and there are some really weird looking bugs on the bottom. Almost like a black potato bug. I'm second guessing vacuuming it

[cloak]

IMO, no... Keep track of the DT first.

[redcoatd]

Thanks for all the replies!!

You all have me second guessing myself now ;)

Main tank is 75G. I inherited a stand that is 48" long, and about 32" high inside. It has 24" w x 22" h cutout for doors (5" up from floor, and 5" down from top), with 2x4's either side, and a 2x4 in the center at the back.

1. This gives me the ability to slide in a 20L or at a push a 29G. I'd love to use the 29G, but it's 19" high, vs 13". How much room do I need to work? I *could* cut out the extra 5" at the top I guess, and make the doors bigger?

2. If I use the 20L, I could fit a 10g in that could gravity feed into it, and use that for the fuge. However, I noted above that dumping from main tank to fugue is not a good idea. If I go this route, how would people suggest plumbing it? And what would I put in the 20L?

Thanks for the help!

cheers

David

[Saltliquid]

Mate you can put your bio filter, fuge, chiller or what ever in the next room if you like, it matters not, just two pipes, one too and one from.
Bio balls are not nitrate factories mate, anything non porus or full of gunk that losses the porus nature like live rock of what ever, takes the nitrogen cycle to nitrate and no further.
A fuge or algae area is based partly on how the ocean takes out toxins, nutrients and co2 and converts/uses these.
If you can do it, have one and use racemosa caulerpa!

[lockus]

Order a 30 long tank from your favorite LFS.

Insert diy baffles of plexiglass/acrylic like this and you can adjust as necessary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEYxUGJ7d_w

I cut my own acrylic purchased at Home Depot. They will cut it to size for you if you want.

[redcoatd]

Order a 30 long tank from your favorite LFS.
I called them and they don't do a 30 long???

The adjustable baffles look very cool...

[lockus]

Many different sizes available from many companies. 30 long tanks are available, Google search for them. Not all are common to carry in stores. Ask again and make sure you get what suits your needs rather than settling on what is in stock. If the LFS cannot help maybe it's not the right store for you.

http://freshaquarium.about.com/od/aquariumsandstands/a/tanksizesweights.htm

[redcoatd]

Hi,

Well, I'm struggling to find a 30L on the link you added that will fit - the width of my stand won't accommodate 18".

I think the 29 gallon will be the biggest I can fit (30" x 12" x 18") but I'm a little concerned about the height of it.

Can anyone advise on how much working room do I need above a sump???

[lockus]

Sorry wrong list. Its a 30 I was thinking of.

http://www.aqueonproducts.com/assets/011/19107.pdf

[jerseygurl]

Okay I have to chime in becasue I just ditched my fuge and went back to a nice simple wet/dry.

I've had them for years, all kinds, and I'm done. The goal is to keep nitrates and phosphates low right? So get yourself a good skimmer, get a nice GFO/Carbon reactor, change your filter pads weekly (takes about 30 seconds), do your water changes and keep a nice low maintenance clean tank. Fuges are way overated.

[JMorris271]

If you dont want to mess with the mud or sand just put in crushed coral and live rock rubble.

[Uncle Salty 05]

Please see this thread:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2401140

[erickcooper]

I just added one on my last tank upgrade. I don't know how beneficial it is, but I actually enjoy seeing what's going on it. There have been a couple of people on this forum that have shown their refuguims and I think they can be as interesting as the DT.

[redcoatd]

Okay I have to chime in becasue I just ditched my fuge and went back to a nice simple wet/dry.

I've had them for years, all kinds, and I'm done. The goal is to keep nitrates and phosphates low right? So get yourself a good skimmer, get a nice GFO/Carbon reactor, change your filter pads weekly (takes about 30 seconds), do your water changes and keep a nice low maintenance clean tank. Fuges are way overated.

Very interesting. It's all a bit overwhelming for a newbie!

When you say you went back to a simple wet/dry that's with bio balls?

[Secondsbest]

I think the 29 gallon would be too tall under your stand. The 20L would allow you add whatever contraptions you find a need for while giving you some room to reach them. I currently have one of each under a 36" stand, and I have just enough room above the 29 to hang a CFL bulb and plumbing. I wouldn't be able to keep much water in the 29 and have my skimmer at the recommended height, so it's in the 20.

[cloak]

For all those that are all about those refugiums, do you think you can get by without one?

Specific feeders are one thing, but the majority is another IMO. (no mandarin)

KISS.

[davocean]

For all those that are all about those refugiums, do you think you can get by without one?

Specific feeders are one thing, but the majority is another IMO. (no mandarin)

KISS.

Yes I could get by w/out one, I mean I did for many years.
I don't rely on a fuge for nutrient export, just pods, but PH balance is nice.
Even if I didn't have mandarins I would still have one though as long as you have room, other fish do benefit.
A smaller tank w/ limited space and no plans of pod needy fish may be better off w/ reactors of some kind if looking solely for nutrient export.

[Secondsbest]

For all those that are all about those refugiums, do you think you can get by without one?

Specific feeders are one thing, but the majority is another IMO. (no mandarin)

KISS.
I could not keep my wild caught pipefish without it. I could keep the rest of my DT I believe, but the costs of artificial nutrient exporters make my RDSB/macro algae grow out tank/refugium a no brainer for me. My fuge allows me to run a protein skimmer (up line of course) and no other means of mechanical filtration or reactors. I really do enjoy it as much as the DT.
http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/secondsbest/20140415_195909_zps32qkygik.jpg
http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/secondsbest/20140408_223639_zpsddea9195.jpg
http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/secondsbest/20140408_225947_8_bestshot_zpsc67ef768.jpg

[Uncle Salty 05]

For all those that are all about those refugiums, do you think you can get by without one?

Specific feeders are one thing, but the majority is another IMO. (no mandarin)

KISS.

That is like asking if you could get by without a skimmer. Yes I did it for years.
But why not take advantage of a natural means of nutrient export and live food?
At this point I would give up my skimmer before I would stop using my refugia.

[jerseygurl]

Very interesting. It's all a bit overwhelming for a newbie!

When you say you went back to a simple wet/dry that's with bio balls?

Oh I know, I've made every mistake at least twice. The thing is, there's no one way to do something, everyone's got an opinion based on their specific experience. A fuge is the perfect example, I've worked on a ton of them (I work part time doing maintenance on rich people's tanks for a LFS) and to me they're just more work. I do enough work keeping the tank pristine, I don't need to spend extra time bent down under the tank cleaning the fuge, forget it.

Anyway, yes, a wet/dry is typically with the bio-balls. But once you get your live rock and sand working you can ditch them. A simple three-stage wet/dry is all you need. First stage the tank water goes through mechanical filtration (think three layors of filter fabric 50/100/200), then into the middle chamber with the protein skimmer and GFO/carbon reactor, then through an air bubble sponge into chamber three with your return pump. Empty the protein skimmer every couple of days, change the filter fabric every couple of weeks, and replace the GFO/carbon every couple of months.

I run basically this exact system on like 30 tanks and they are all crystal clean and easy to maintain and hardly ever have issues.