PDA

View Full Version : Buy the best straight away or upgrade later?


Fishfins
04/12/2014, 04:31 AM
Hey everyone.

I'm currently planning a 120g 5' tank and am adding up the cost of equipment from my research.

I've done a lot of reading up and it seems like in a lot of areas there's a main leader which everyone rates but costs a lot, then a lot of lower priced options. Am I better buying the best of everything I can to start out with or picking a few areas to get the best and have cheaper options in other areas?

I had a total budget of £3000 but I'm looking at more than that already just for tank and equipment. I'm set on an Apex controller and fairly set on 2 vortech MP40s but a skimmer I could probably go for a cheaper option.

Thanks, any opinions welcome!

geckoejon
04/12/2014, 04:58 AM
imho, i would go with the apex. they are a great investment and worth it! the ability to have a safety control for heater, pump control, and tank overflow is great!

i would pass on the mp's, at least for now. i would go with regular powerheads for a fraction of the cost. or... go with a couple wp jaebos for a fraction of the cost. they are something that is more of a luxury then a necessity.

good lights and a good skimmer are a necessity. i think that you would be best off getting a good skimmer and lights. that doesn't mean that you would have to get the top of the line either. i have reef breeder photon led's on my tank and they are great! i am building another setup and going with another photon for it as well. great growth, programming, and they make the tank look awesome :0) i have some friends that have bought top of the line everything new. imo, my tank looks just as nice for a fraction of the cost ;-) a few less bells and whistles, but it's not stuff that i really need or miss.

i would also suggest looking locally for some used equipment from local reefers to cut back on the budget.

just my 2 cents... hope it goes well....

ridetheducati
04/12/2014, 05:01 AM
The skimmer is the cornerstone of a reef, I do not recommend saving on export mechanisms.

1. Strong lighting
2. Powerful skimming
3. Adequate water flow

Fishfins
04/12/2014, 05:45 AM
Thanks for the replies, I think I need to look for a better skimmer! I was originally thinking of the bubble Magnus but thought it wouldn't make that much difference and I could get away with a cheaper one!

For lighting I had looked at the reefbreeder LEDs but I read mixed reviews on LED only light systems. My plan was to go with an ATI T5 fixture plus 2 Aquabeam 600s In blue.

I'll look into cheaper powerheads too, I admit I was a bit smitten with the vortechs and didn't really look at anything else!

Fishfins
04/12/2014, 06:31 AM
Ha ha, I really was going overboard with the vortechs! Just had a look at the jebaos, thanks for the tip! Still love the vortechs but at nearly £300 more each....

Chris Lakies
04/12/2014, 07:14 AM
You really can not beat an ATI fixture for the PAR out put vs cost. I just received my 8x54 watt sunpower for my 120 gallon upgrade. You did not mention what size sump you were going to get? I would look at either a SRO 2000 INT or the Vertex Omega 150. Both cost about the same but the cost vs performance is good. I will be using the Vertex on my 120. You don't NEED controllable water movement to have a fantastic reef. If you are looking to save some money there you could go with Hydor or a couple of Jebao WP40's. I don't have experience with Jebao WP's so i can't say how long they last.

das75
04/12/2014, 07:28 AM
do an advanced search in the buy&sell forums for the items your considering, amazed at the number of people always upgrading of getting out. Often see 25-50% off new.

sabo
04/12/2014, 08:11 AM
Good skimmer, good lights. The wp40s are weapons. Even if they only last a year, you can buy a lot for the cost of an mp40. The ati hybrid is a fantastic light too. T5 goodness with led functionality. Its expensive, but I bet you won't feel the need to upgrade it.

cody6766
04/12/2014, 08:43 AM
If you're going to skimp, skimp on powerheads. Good flow can be had for relatively little cash and it can hold you over without issue until you upgrade. I've been keeping reefs since 07 or 08 and only got my first Vortech about a year ago. I also bought it used and saved a pretty good bit over new costs.

When you look at the cost of cheap lights vs nice lights and cheap skimmers vs quality skimmers you won't see a huge gap. The difference between a Koralia and an MP40 is HUGE and you'll still find good uses for the Koralia if you replace it.

zoomonster
04/12/2014, 08:48 AM
Well as someone else pointed out the price of the Vortechs is ludicrous and there are better options if your on a budget. I don't like Vortech because in my opinion they also practice price fixing (should be illegal) through the aggressive use of MAP/MRP policies which require all vendors to sell at same price. Frankly if you have a specific budget I would say skip the Apex and save that for later while spending that cash on more important foundation pieces like sump, pump, lights, heaters, skimmer, RO/DI etc. While Apex is certainly nice to have and lends itself to a more automated system it is certainly not required for a startup. Pretty much everything nowadays has its own control system and Apex just provides centralized all in one control and redundancy. Seriously other than real time ph/temp/orp/conductivity monitoring ask yourself what necessity it takes care of. I asked myself the same but bought it anyway :hmm5:

Mark426
04/12/2014, 08:53 AM
Think Apex is priced fixed as well. I cant say that with conviction but the price is the same everywhere as are the Vortex pumps. Its just something that many, many manufactures do.

Portsie
04/12/2014, 09:26 AM
Seriously other than real time ph/temp/orp/conductivity monitoring ask yourself what necessity it takes care of. I asked myself the same but bought it anyway :hmm5:


I disagree, firstly it will control your heaters, and prevent a disaster, or at least inform you that a disaster is eminent. You can also use it to control your ATO for very little additional cost. If you were to buy stand alone units to do this, you have already spent a good chunk of change you could have spent on the apex.

snorvich
04/12/2014, 09:43 AM
The skimmer is the cornerstone of a reef, I do not recommend saving on export mechanisms.

1. Strong lighting
2. Powerful skimming
3. Adequate water flow

I agree.

snorvich
04/12/2014, 09:45 AM
Some items like Vortech are fair trade items (new) but you can often find those items used for much less.

tkeracer619
04/12/2014, 09:58 AM
I would stay as far away from any budget product as you can and it will pay off in the long run.

Are you completely new to this hobby?

I think you should step back a bit and look at the big picture. What do you want to keep in the tank? How long is it going to take to cycle? Do you really need to drop all that cash on lighting before you have something to light? You don't need a controller but it would be a nice to have. All of these things are nice but what you really need is to figure out what you want to keep so you can figure out the best course to get that result. Start with the minimums and build up your equipment. Do not go over budget, these things take forever to setup. There is no rush. Nothing good in the saltwater hobby happens fast.

Many of the budget skimmers on the market are better than anything available 10 years ago. You should really start a build thread.

zoomonster
04/12/2014, 11:26 AM
I disagree, firstly it will control your heaters, and prevent a disaster, or at least inform you that a disaster is eminent. You can also use it to control your ATO for very little additional cost. If you were to buy stand alone units to do this, you have already spent a good chunk of change you could have spent on the apex.

First off let me say I like Apex (bought gold for my current build) and I started with the original Neptune Aquacontroller Pro. However what you suggest carries a level of risk I don't suggest. The weakest link of Apex is the power bars which are known to sometimes have outlets fail in the ON position. I certainly would not rely on Apex as the sole control for heaters or ATO. ATO with its own control like Tunze and heaters with their own controllers. Then the Apex is good for a redundant backup control of those systems if they fail. I was tempted to buy controllerless titanium heaters but its probably not worth the risk even though I'm splitting my 800-1000w requirement into two separate units. Wish I could find something like the old fireplug heater.

zoomonster
04/12/2014, 11:54 AM
Think Apex is priced fixed as well. I cant say that with conviction but the price is the same everywhere as are the Vortex pumps. Its just something that many, many manufactures do.

Your right it is. At least with Apex you get reasonable pricing to start (for what you get) and more value for the dollar. Problem is this is a hobby industry and they get away with much more. Sure the practice has become more prevalent in all sorts of industries these days but it is just contrary to free market principles. Ecotech makes excellent gear but they just stand out to me because of pricing and policies. Even when many websites offer discount coupons like 5-10% off Ecotech stuff is always top of the excluded list. That they call it "fair trade" is laughable. Even the new product progression stands out i.e. rather than allowing vendors to discount the Radion XR30 G2 model they kept the same prices and jacked the price of the G3. Hopefully the Chinese will put a squeeze on them. Jebao has got to be putting a serious hurting on the Vortech sales as is. Competition is always a good thing for consumers.

geckoejon
04/12/2014, 11:58 AM
You really can not beat an ATI fixture for the PAR out put vs cost.

i don't agree with this compared to led's in particular the reef breeders photon series. the ati's are just as expensive to start with.

in addition... you have to replace t5 bulbs. look over the next couple of years at changing bulbs every 6 months with the the price of each bulb....

personally i like the lower energy consumption, lower heat emission, and not having to change the bulbs.

Chris Lakies
04/12/2014, 12:07 PM
i don't agree with this compared to led's in particular the reef breeders photon series. the ati's are just as expensive to start with.

in addition... you have to replace t5 bulbs. look over the next couple of years at changing bulbs every 6 months with the the price of each bulb....

personally i like the lower energy consumption, lower heat emission, and not having to change the bulbs.


Once a year not six months. $168 for eight bulbs? I spend more than that every time i go to the lfs. Really it boils down to what u prefer. Generally people who spend the money up front on leds upgrade a year or two later anyway. Again its up to what u prefer. I would use metal halide if it weren't for the heat. T5 are in between for me. Im a diy guy anyway so i can add leds to my ati fixture down the road if i want.

Fishfins
04/12/2014, 01:54 PM
You really can not beat an ATI fixture for the PAR out put vs cost. I just received my 8x54 watt sunpower for my 120 gallon upgrade. You did not mention what size sump you were going to get? I would look at either a SRO 2000 INT or the Vertex Omega 150. Both cost about the same but the cost vs performance is good. I will be using the Vertex on my 120. You don't NEED controllable water movement to have a fantastic reef. If you are looking to save some money there you could go with Hydor or a couple of Jebao WP40's. I don't have experience with Jebao WP's so i can't say how long they last.

The tank I've ordered is a custom build and comes with a custom sump so that's one decision I don't have to worry about!

Good skimmer, good lights. The wp40s are weapons. Even if they only last a year, you can buy a lot for the cost of an mp40. The ati hybrid is a fantastic light too. T5 goodness with led functionality. Its expensive, but I bet you won't feel the need to upgrade it.

That's my dream light fitting!! I want it so badly but it's too expensive. Although if I don't buy the vortechs.... :idea:

I would stay as far away from any budget product as you can and it will pay off in the long run.

Are you completely new to this hobby?

I think you should step back a bit and look at the big picture. What do you want to keep in the tank? How long is it going to take to cycle? Do you really need to drop all that cash on lighting before you have something to light? You don't need a controller but it would be a nice to have. All of these things are nice but what you really need is to figure out what you want to keep so you can figure out the best course to get that result. Start with the minimums and build up your equipment. Do not go over budget, these things take forever to setup. There is no rush. Nothing good in the saltwater hobby happens fast.

Many of the budget skimmers on the market are better than anything available 10 years ago. You should really start a build thread.

I'm new to saltwater but not fish keeping. My aim is to set up an aquarium where I can have a reef, I know it will take a long time to get to that stage but I don't want to limit myself to not keeping a particular thing. I might start a build thread when I get the tank!



For all the apex comments, I know it is a nice to have rather than a necessity but I have to be honest the thing I dread most is losing fish or corals and I would happily pay the money if it does provide me some protection from that.

Thanks for all the comments everyone, this is really useful!

tufkab
04/12/2014, 07:40 PM
Like many others who have been doing this, or pretty much any hobby for that matter; we've all done the same thing. We buy try to save money by buying something cheaper, then it blows up and we end up going to buy the more expensive item anyway.

I'm now of the opinion that you should buy the best you can afford. However, don't buy something that you know is going to fall apart because that's all you can afford.

Let me give you an example: Powerheads.

I find it mind boggling when people try to justify their purchasing Jebao pumps by saying "Well, if it blows up, it's cheap and I can buy 5 for the price of one MP40"

Seriously ???

Yes, you can buy 5 for the price of one MP40. But, WHY WOULD YOU ?? Because guess what, once you've blown up 5 Jebao pumps, you'll be out the same $500 if you had just bought a Vortech to begin with, but you'll have 5 dead POS Jebao pumps and no MP40. So at that point do you keep buying Jebao pumps or do you then pony up for the MP40 that you've now bought twice ?

If you're justifying a purchase by starting with "If it lasts me a year...." you should rethink your purchase.

Buy a couple of Koralia to begin with if you can't afford an MP40, They are effective, if not ugly; they should last damn near forever and most important, they should be easy to sell once you save up for better powerheads.

Let's look at lighting.

T5 lights are fairly cheap compared to high end LED fixtures. They are also effective. You can grow pretty much anything under the right fixture. But most importantly, in my opinion is that because of their simplicity and versatility not only does very little go wrong with them, but they are an easily sold item in the used market. A few years ago I picked up a used 48" TEK 8 bulb fixture; I forgot exactly how much I paid for it, but I know that a year later when I upgraded to a 6 foot tank, I sold the lights for the exact same price I bought them for. So a year of lighting cost me the price of one set of bulbs.

Circulation pumps: similar idea. Mag drive pumps and the Quiet One series aren't the best or the quietest pumps. But they work well for the price, and again, more importantly they are reliable. So when you decide to upgrade, the one you have now will sill be working perfectly fine and be pretty easy to sell.

If you've noticed, I made a lot of mention of selling old the stuff you are upgrading from. To me that's the most important thing to consider when you are buying something that you plan to upgrade later on. Never buy anything that you expect right off the bat to upgrade from when it blows up. You'll be out your full investement on the original item and still have to buy the new one. If you have any doubt that you'll be upgrading later on; BUY SOMETHING THAT YOU'LL BE ABLE TO SELL WHEN YOU DECIDE TO UPGRADE. You'll be able to use that money to offset the cost of the upgrade.

I'd also say, don't be afraid of buying used. There is so much good, high quality equipment being sold by people who are either leaving the hobby or upgrading that it's insane to not consider buying used. Especially stuff that you plan upgrading anyway. Most depreciation happens the second you first open the box, after that, the value of functional equipment levels off. Like my example of the TEK fixture, some stuff just ends up hitting a price point where it will not drop any lower regardless of how many times it gets re-sold.

That's my point of view anyway.

HTH

cherubfish pair
04/13/2014, 12:13 AM
For stand-alone equipment resist your instinct and go for that top performing item. For modular equipment that has modules like controller then you can buy a piece at a time.

I bought a reef octopus skimmer to save money and I don't like it. Then I bought a ASM skimmer and A Tunze skimmer pump to replace the sedra, and then spent some more money modding the crap out of it and don't think I like it either. Now I want to buy a Vertex Omega because it's plug and play and I've never tried the ASM yet. I'm never satisfied and my girlfriend is going to kill me. Before it's all over I will probably spend more than if I bought a Bubble King Mini.

OneStepAhead
04/13/2014, 06:23 AM
Your right it is. At least with Apex you get reasonable pricing to start (for what you get) and more value for the dollar. Problem is this is a hobby industry and they get away with much more. Sure the practice has become more prevalent in all sorts of industries these days but it is just contrary to free market principles. Ecotech makes excellent gear but they just stand out to me because of pricing and policies. Even when many websites offer discount coupons like 5-10% off Ecotech stuff is always top of the excluded list. That they call it "fair trade" is laughable. Even the new product progression stands out i.e. rather than allowing vendors to discount the Radion XR30 G2 model they kept the same prices and jacked the price of the G3. Hopefully the Chinese will put a squeeze on them. Jebao has got to be putting a serious hurting on the Vortech sales as is. Competition is always a good thing for consumers.

As a business owner myself who frequently has issues with other sellers copying aspects from our business, I cannot support Jebao after seeing they name their products the W10, W40, W60, etc. Yes the Ecotech pumps are more expensive but I also see them innovating and being active in the community. I just picked up an MP10 and two MP40's last week. The quality is amazing, and the fact that the power cable goes on the outside of the aquarium is huge for me. Rarely do I buy something that's built as nicely as these pumps are. For me, the price difference is negligible, but If I were on a budget I'd probably of went with Tunze pumps, especially considering they interface with my Apex with no extra module required.

Considering I researched pumps for quite a while and never heard of Jebao until now, I doubt they are effecting their bottom line much. The people that were seriously going to buy Ecotech will likely still buy Ecotech. It's the people who were planning on buying Korilas that may pick up the Jebao since they are similar priced.

geckoejon
04/13/2014, 06:42 AM
As a business owner myself who frequently has issues with other sellers copying aspects from our business, I cannot support Jebao after seeing they name their products the W10, W40, W60, etc.

that's like saying i'm not going to buy a chevy 1500 because ford has the f150. look around you. it happens all the time and that is business today. it happens with just about everything in the market from cars to tv's to pumps...

there are multiple threads on jaebo pumps and the majority of people are happy with them. they are newer to the market, but that doesn't mean they are bad. they have a lot of good reviews.

tufkab, there are numerous threads on jaebo wp's, but i have yet to see anyone post that they have...

"Because guess what, once you've blown up 5 Jebao pumps, you'll be out the same $500 if you had just bought a Vortech to begin with"

just curious as to who has written a review that states they have blown up multiple wp's? i haven't seen that one.

many... people have been happy with jaebos. i have seen some people having a few issues right off the bat with a few of them. they have a warranty and a reputable dealer follows up and takes care of it quickly. those are the majority of the review that i have seen.

sounds more like some people are set on keeping the mp's which they like. fine, but don't try to throw out false info on wp's that can't be backed up...

d2mini
04/13/2014, 06:50 AM
For a controller, if you want the best, go with GHL Profilux. Their doser is great too if you decide you need that as well.
For a skimmer, ignore all the hype of modern skimmers and go with a LifeReef.

Those are the two most important pieces of equipment you'll buy for your tank and you will literally never have to buy them again.

Fishfins
04/13/2014, 06:52 AM
It's a difficult one for me, the jebao vs vortech, I've read quite a bit of the jebao threads and people do seem happy with them but for me it's controllability. For me living in the UK I can't find the twin controller or the cables which can be adapted to run from the apex. Also being a beginner I'm a bit reluctant to start chopping cables and soldering in case I make a complete mess of it!

However if getting jebaos means I could afford a much better light fixture it puts me in a bit of a muddle!

Fishfins
04/13/2014, 06:57 AM
For a controller, if you want the best, go with GHL Profilux. Their doser is great too if you decide you need that as well.
For a skimmer, ignore all the hype of modern skimmers and go with a LifeReef.

Those are the two most important pieces of equipment you'll buy for your tank and you will literally never have to buy them again.

The GHL profilux, what makes it better than an Apex? It seems to have a lot of programs to select from, also I can't tell if it comes with power bars like the apex does?

OneStepAhead
04/13/2014, 07:08 AM
that's like saying i'm not going to buy a chevy 1500 because ford has the f150. look around you. it happens all the time and that is business today. it happens with just about everything in the market from cars to tv's to pumps...



Well I wouldn't buy a Chevy or Ford anyways. But for me, I try and be very conscious about that kind of thing. If I see a company blatantly ripping off another one I'll avoid it if possible. Especially something as simple as a name, they could of easily called them something else. Plus Ecotech is an American owned company, that goes far with me.

tkeracer619
04/13/2014, 08:57 AM
For some reason people cannot see past the name. Jaebo pumps are not in the same league as vortechs, they are tunze copies, and poor ones at that. It is just more cheap stuff flooding a market that was already flooded with cheap stuff. Only this time around people are buying into the variable flow stuff and ignoring words of caution.

You will spend more money in the long run by insisting you have a full blown reef setup just so you can have more at the start. You're tank is still going to be in rough shape for the first year and all this fancy stuff will just put you over budget for no reason out of the gate.

You don't have water yet, you have nothing to kill. I'd suggest you take some advice from some of us that have been around a while. Your immediate satisfaction may not be as great buy your long term success will be.

You still haven't said what you wanted to keep.

geckoejon
04/13/2014, 09:15 AM
Only this time around people are buying into the variable flow stuff and ignoring words of caution. looking for some first hand experience to back up the quotes. i have heard several people here bashing and making very vague accusations against jaebo, but have yet to see any facts stated. there are numerous threads on rc with people very happy with them though. while they might not be the same as an mp, there seem to be a lot of people that are using them and quite happy. do you have any first hand experience?

You're tank is still going to be in rough shape for the first year and all this fancy stuff will just put you over budget for no reason out of the gate. why do you say that it will be in rough shape? i think that is a pretty broad statement to make. granted, i have only had saltwater tanks about 7 months now, but my 75g looks great and i have never had any reason to state that it would be in "rough shape". it is growing, but have never had any major issues. actually, people that come over for the first time usually stand and look at it for a long time.

I'd suggest you take some advice from some of us that have been around a while.


i look for and strongly take into consideration what people with experience have to say. i have learned a ton from these forums. on the other hand, i know that a lot of dogma is tossed around without any facts to back it up.

i'm not trying to be argumentative here, but i am looking for facts instead of opinions just being tossed around.

d2mini
04/13/2014, 09:19 AM
The GHL profilux, what makes it better than an Apex? It seems to have a lot of programs to select from, also I can't tell if it comes with power bars like the apex does?

What it comes with depends what kit you buy, but yes at least one power bar is included. Check out the ghl sponsor forum.

It's built like a tank, no programming language to learn, easy to use PC interface, upgradeable at home, fixable at home (both of these mean much less downtime), built like a tank, extremely low failure rate, and when it comes down to it and you get the exact same equipment between the two, the GHL is really not that much more. And in the long run, you will come out ahead since you will never need to buy another controller. If they come out with a major hardware upgrade, you can just swap out the board at home. Firmware and software upgrades come out pretty regularly as they are always improving and adding features. Even has programming included for automatic water changes, so no need to go and buy a Genesis or some other extra piece of equipment. GHL also doesn't rush anything to market. Everything from new equipment to new software features are rigorously tested, even if that means someone else putting out the same feature before them. Basically, Apex is the consumer controller and a great option, whereas GHL is the pro controller. For me, the deciding factor was the stellar reliability/track record, and the fact that I could both upgrade and repair at home.

d2mini
04/13/2014, 09:22 AM
btw, i opened up my power bar the other day... see what i mean when i say "built like a tank"?
This thing is 2ft long.

http://bluelemonphoto.smugmug.com/Aquariums/200g-Reef-Aquarium/i-r8MwrMc/0/X3/PAB%20PowerBar-X3.jpg

tkeracer619
04/13/2014, 09:36 AM
Gecko, there are a bunch of people who have had failed pumps within a year. The pumps are new. A lot are failing, some come doa, some are noisy, some need to be cleaned weekly, there is no warranty.

These are all things that in the past people seemed to care about at least somewhat but when you toss variable flow and cheap (relatively) in the mix all caution seems to be thrown to the wind. I will never have first hand experience with these pumps but that doesn't mean I cannot take what other refers' experienced and use that as valid data. I don't have blinders on (I don't hate it just because its from china) and I have wasted my money on a lot of cheap crap over the years (and not so cheap stuff). I'm not in the habit of passing on bad advice.

I've been on this site for 8 years almost daily. I understand the trends and I have NEVER seen such a strong support for such a new and unproven product. Especially one that is sold on a website in china because it probably violates two company's copyright laws. Plenty of shilling going on as well. These pumps will likely never be sold or supported in the US or Europe and I feel for the chap who tries to.

tkeracer619
04/13/2014, 09:55 AM
As far as why I think the tank will look rough in the first year anyways is because the OP is maxing out their budget on equipment. What about what goes in it?

I would rather start with...
one nice power head
a trusted return pump
a trusted skimmer
a heater on a ranco
rock/water/sand/tank/sump/stand.

Then give it a few months to cycle. Buy the lighting after a few months, start stocking, and add addition power heads as needed.

Buy the best first... But don't buy it all at once unless you can afford it.

A controller is awesome but they have their time and place. If you unplug a controller and the tank dies your tank is not any safer then it was without the controller. A battery backup will save livestock.

cody6766
04/13/2014, 10:42 AM
Another option for a controller that won't break the budget is the Reef Keeper Lite. It's not the most robust controller out there...probably one of the least, but it gets the job done. I use mine for temp control and lighting control and nothing else. I have a heater and a fan working to keep the tank w/in a few degrees and then my lights on the other two. I use an American DJ power bar for the rest of my on/off functions. The RKL is about $120 US and definitely worth it if you aren't wanting/needing the advanced functions that the RKE or Apex make available.

sirreal63
04/13/2014, 11:05 AM
Hey everyone.

I'm currently planning a 120g 5' tank and am adding up the cost of equipment from my research.

I've done a lot of reading up and it seems like in a lot of areas there's a main leader which everyone rates but costs a lot, then a lot of lower priced options. Am I better buying the best of everything I can to start out with or picking a few areas to get the best and have cheaper options in other areas?

I had a total budget of £3000 but I'm looking at more than that already just for tank and equipment. I'm set on an Apex controller and fairly set on 2 vortech MP40s but a skimmer I could probably go for a cheaper option.

Thanks, any opinions welcome!

You need to decide what you want to keep and if you are in this for the long term or if it just a passing fad for you. If you are in this for the long term, it makes sense to buy products that have a long standing reputation for durability. It is sometimes advantageous to buy good quality products used than it is to buy poor quality new. There was a time in this world where that was common sense.

Spend a little time looking through past TOTM's, for the most part these are long term reefers and are dedicated to the life they are keeping.
http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/totm-list

Pay attention to their equipment selection and see how many are using high quality, durable products with a long standing history of performance. Then look and see how many are using bottom tier products from AquaTraders, Jebo, Odyssea etc. etc. Ask yourself why?

I would suggest skipping a controller for tank setup. Become acquainted with how everything works together first, then add any automation later as needed. Understanding your equipment and how it functions is important. Being able to identify problems before they become a problem takes time and experience, and it begins with an understanding of how a marine system works.

Fishfins
04/13/2014, 11:34 AM
For some reason people cannot see past the name. Jaebo pumps are not in the same league as vortechs, they are tunze copies, and poor ones at that. It is just more cheap stuff flooding a market that was already flooded with cheap stuff. Only this time around people are buying into the variable flow stuff and ignoring words of caution.

You will spend more money in the long run by insisting you have a full blown reef setup just so you can have more at the start. You're tank is still going to be in rough shape for the first year and all this fancy stuff will just put you over budget for no reason out of the gate.

You don't have water yet, you have nothing to kill. I'd suggest you take some advice from some of us that have been around a while. Your immediate satisfaction may not be as great buy your long term success will be.

You still haven't said what you wanted to keep.

Sorry, thought I'd covered it with reef! I'd like to keep a variety of peaceful fish, start with easier corals and work my way up. I am trying to take advice from those who have been around awhile, sorry if I gave another impression!

I'm not insisting on having a full-blown reef setup from the outset, I just know how my freshwater fish keeping went and I want to make sure I get it right from the start. I've been waiting and saving for this for a long time so I want to buy the best I can afford from the start, that's just my personal preference.

What it comes with depends what kit you buy, but yes at least one power bar is included. Check out the ghl sponsor forum.

It's built like a tank, no programming language to learn, easy to use PC interface, upgradeable at home, fixable at home (both of these mean much less downtime), built like a tank, extremely low failure rate, and when it comes down to it and you get the exact same equipment between the two, the GHL is really not that much more. And in the long run, you will come out ahead since you will never need to buy another controller. If they come out with a major hardware upgrade, you can just swap out the board at home. Firmware and software upgrades come out pretty regularly as they are always improving and adding features. Even has programming included for automatic water changes, so no need to go and buy a Genesis or some other extra piece of equipment. GHL also doesn't rush anything to market. Everything from new equipment to new software features are rigorously tested, even if that means someone else putting out the same feature before them. Basically, Apex is the consumer controller and a great option, whereas GHL is the pro controller. For me, the deciding factor was the stellar reliability/track record, and the fact that I could both upgrade and repair at home.

Thanks, I'll definitely do some research into that.

As far as why I think the tank will look rough in the first year anyways is because the OP is maxing out their budget on equipment. What about what goes in it?


Sorry but I'm not maxing my budget on equipment, I have a separate budget for what goes in it. I should have specified that, didn't realise the assumptions people might make. I'm not just rushing into this wasting all my money on fancy equipment.

Another option for a controller that won't break the budget is the Reef Keeper Lite. It's not the most robust controller out there...probably one of the least, but it gets the job done. I use mine for temp control and lighting control and nothing else. I have a heater and a fan working to keep the tank w/in a few degrees and then my lights on the other two. I use an American DJ power bar for the rest of my on/off functions. The RKL is about $120 US and definitely worth it if you aren't wanting/needing the advanced functions that the RKE or Apex make available.

Unfortunately the reefkeeper isn't available in the UK, that was the first one I looked at!

You need to decide what you want to keep and if you are in this for the long term or if it just a passing fad for you. If you are in this for the long term, it makes sense to buy products that have a long standing reputation for durability. It is sometimes advantageous to buy good quality products used than it is to buy poor quality new. There was a time in this world where that was common sense.

Spend a little time looking through past TOTM's, for the most part these are long term reefers and are dedicated to the life they are keeping.
http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/totm-list

Pay attention to their equipment selection and see how many are using high quality, durable products with a long standing history of performance. Then look and see how many are using bottom tier products from AquaTraders, Jebo, Odyssea etc. etc. Ask yourself why?

I would suggest skipping a controller for tank setup. Become acquainted with how everything works together first, then add any automation later as needed. Understanding your equipment and how it functions is important. Being able to identify problems before they become a problem takes time and experience, and it begins with an understanding of how a marine system works.

Thanks, I am definitely in it for the long term, been keeping freshwater fish for 15 years and this is the next step, so not just a fad! Thanks for the controller advice too, I had wondered if that was the thing to leave out to start with.

Portsie
04/13/2014, 12:42 PM
First, let me say that I am nowhere near as experienced as some of the people that have already given advice in this thread, I've only been keeping saltwater for a couple of years, but I do have experience relevant to your original question.

When I started I was given a 72g bowfront, not drilled, and a canister filter. I was thrown into the hobby and had done absolutely no research previous. The tank was a fowlr, but I knew almost right away I wanted to keep corals too. I rushed to my lfs, talked to them, and bought some Koralia powerheads and was on my way. My next purchase was a 4 bulb t5 fixture from eBay. I spent lots more money on other junk, and then around Christmas time, someone local was selling a 90g with sump and stand for a good price so I decided it was time to upgrade.

Since starting out I have upgraded almost everything I bought in the first year except my lights. The only reason I haven't upgraded them yet is that I really can't decide on whether or not I'm ready to switch to leds or not.

About a year ago I made a promise to myself that I was not going to spend anymore money on the tank on equipment that I knew I would want to upgrade in the future. I have since collected 3 vortech pumps, all used but still running great, a tunze auto top off and return pump, and an apex. All of these won't last forever, but I have confidence in their reputation for longevity and customer service.

I don't really regret any of the cheaper purchases, as I consider it all part of the learning curve associated with this addictive hobby. I knew vortechs were great pumps when I bought the koralias, but I was like "who would spend that on a power head?" I now realize, that like in most aspects of life, you get what you pay for in this hobby. If you cut corners, or buy cheap, you will probably end up paying more for replacements or upgrades in the future.

My advice to anyone starting out would be to buy the best equipment you can afford at the time, and if that's not the best equipment available, that's ok, just be prepared that at some time in the not-so-distant future, you will probably find yourself upgrading or kicking yourself in the butt for not just waiting a few extra paychecks to get the item you knew you wanted from the start.

Fishfins
04/13/2014, 01:47 PM
Thanks, that's great advice. That's what I was worried I would end up doing, I know some people might think I'm just spending for spending's sake but I really do want to avoid having to upgrade in a year's time.

dwolson2
04/13/2014, 02:21 PM
You could look at getting an Apex Jr and transformer to go down to 110. Look at aquamaxx skimmers, they are very nice for the price.
Whatever you do buy, make sure there is a market for it if you are planning on replacing it down the road.
Another thought is to do a DIY LED setup. Put one or two long strips down the length of the tank, then as you move to reefs, add more strips of lights. That would save considerably. Same goes for powerheads, start with one, then add more as needed. FOWLR doesn't need a lot of flow.

Fishfins
04/14/2014, 01:00 AM
I think Aquamaxx is yet another one you can't get in the UK! Starting with one powerhead is a good idea and also the DIY LEDs, I'd thought of that but got a bit overwhelmed with technical speak when I researched it! I'll have a better look at the DIY forum.

EllisJuan
04/14/2014, 03:29 AM
There are some serious pump snobs in this thread...lol. I did not buy my Jebao they were all I could afford. If I wanted Vortech, that is what I would have bought. I am not a fan of the whirling sound most Vortechs make and I wanted to give something new a try. I figured if they didn't perform, I would not be out much money. Personally I have been really impressed with my pumps. They are dead silent, and that is not an overstatement. If someone wants to come to my house, stand in front of my tank with their back to it, and tell me when my pumps turn on, their next frag is on me. Just yesterday I was playing with their programming on my Apex and was not sure if my WP25 was ramping up and down. I had to turn off the TV and literally press me ear against the glass it was mounted on and even then I could only barely hear it. I have no reason to exaggerate or lie. I don't own stock in Jebao. Maybe I just got some "good ones". I have heard more reports lately of people saying theirs are loud. That is kind of troubling. Maybe manufacturing tolerances have loosened or even the manufacturing process has changed.

If they crapped out on me tomorrow I probably would not buy them again because longevity is a factor, as it should be. I would probably go tunze or buy a MP40, hope it runs quiet, and keep an extra set of bearings on hand incase it gets loud.

geckoejon
04/14/2014, 04:37 AM
There are some serious pump snobs in this thread...lol. I did not buy my Jebao they were all I could afford.... Personally I have been really impressed with my pumps. They are dead silent, and that is not an overstatement.

ahh... someone that actually has some first hand experience with jaebos. thanks for sharing. i have actually read of many people stating that they are pleased as well. there have been some that have issues, but the majority have seem to be pleased.

i don't own stock in jaebo either. i just think it is wrong when some people on this site spout opinions as fact. it can be misleading.

to the op, i thought about going the diy lighting way. by the time i priced all the parts, it came out to as much as a reef breeder photon. with the photon i only have 1 cord, fully programmable, compact, and looks nice.

tkeracer619, i do respect the fact that you have been around a long time. i am sure that you have a ton of knowledge about reef keeping. however, i do not agree with making broad statements that are not entirely true. yes, they are new pumps and are working out the kinks. yes, i have also read about people having to clean the power heads, and some noisy pumps. however, they do have a warranty, but they want the dealer to take care of it. i have read of several people having issues, contacting fish street, and getting replacement parts sent to them very quickly. they also do have warehouses on the east and west coast.

with the majority of people claiming that they are happy with jaebos and them costing aprox 1/4 of the price, i am giving them a whirl. i don't see it as a fad, but rather a less expensive version of a nice perk in a reef tank. i'm sure the other wave makers had a few glitches when they first came out as well. i am hopeful that they will continue to improve and work out the few kinks that they have over time.

tkeracer619
04/14/2014, 10:51 AM
I will gladly eat my words in a year or two if I am wrong.

AcroporAddict
04/14/2014, 10:58 AM
I will gladly eat my words in a year or two if I am wrong.

Most folks have to go through the same learning curve with equipment as everyone else, unfortunately.

sirreal63
04/14/2014, 11:17 AM
Most folks have to go through the same learning curve with equipment as everyone else, unfortunately.

I did, I was one of the stubborn ones and thought I knew better than those who were trying to help me 10 years ago. It turns out I did not know better, I did not listen and ended up spending way more than I should have on bottom tier products, all of which ended up in the trash.

Over the years the same product scenario has played out numerous times, and the constant has always been the better quality products stay, are supported with excellence and the bottom tier companies change their name, dupe more products and sell them at cheap prices to the inexperienced and stubborn. It is nothing new, and it will happen time and time again and hopefully the people who are stubborn and not understanding today will be the ones who try to pass along their experience down the road. I thank those people from 10 years ago for their wisdom and experience and apologize for not listening. The only way I can truly thank them is to pass along the message I ignored and had to learn the hard way.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

mkj
04/14/2014, 02:19 PM
don't forget about maintenance. For me, the #1 item is an ATO. It's much more important than a controller. It allows you to go away for a week or more. Yes a controller can run one but an ATO runs perfectly fine without one.

A simple timer on your lights can suffice until the next round of upgrades. Spending too much at first is a bad idea. This is why people quit the hobby. Everyone wants all the bells and whistles but its the daily maintained stuff that makes hobbyists quit. Minimizing daily chores but keeping it inexpensive is more important and ATOs do that.

round one purchases besides tank/stand/sump:

1: lights. simple light like reefbreeders and put it on a wall timer or go with one that has built in timer.
2: Good skimmer,
4: RO/DI
3: ATO, best cheap purchase you can make.
4: Power heads: jebaos. good water flow is important but don't need the expensive power heads
5: obviously a heater

If you stick in the hobbies then next round is when you buy a controller. and possible upgrade your lights. All the items above don't need a controller. Also this is the time to look into an algae scrubber. A properly run sump with skimmer and algae scrubber will keep your water clean and minimize algae growth in tank. Try to stay away from socks if you don't think you will change them every 1-3 days. I only use socks when cleaning the tank, then I take it out.

I use a controller now but it really doesn't add anything to a successful tank. It's more of a toy for the advanced users. Not necessary, can be added later.

Fishfins
04/14/2014, 02:28 PM
don't forget about maintenance. For me, the #1 item is an ATO. It's much more important than a controller. It allows you to go away for a week or more. Yes a controller can run one but an ATO runs perfectly fine without one.

A simple timer on your lights can suffice until the next round of upgrades. Spending too much at first is a bad idea. This is why people quit the hobby. Everyone wants all the bells and whistles but its the daily maintained stuff that makes hobbyists quit. Minimizing daily chores but keeping it inexpensive is more important and ATOs do that.

round one purchases besides tank/stand/sump:

1: lights. simple light like reefbreeders and put it on a wall timer or go with one that has built in timer.
2: Good skimmer,
4: RO/DI
3: ATO, best cheap purchase you can make.
4: Power heads: jebaos. good water flow is important but don't need the expensive power heads
5: obviously a heater

If you stick in the hobbies then next round is when you buy a controller. and possible upgrade your lights. All the items above don't need a controller. Also this is the time to look into an algae scrubber. A properly run sump with skimmer and algae scrubber will keep your water clean and minimize algae growth in tank. Try to stay away from socks if you don't think you will change them every 1-3 days. I only use socks when cleaning the tank, then I take it out.

I use a controller now but it really doesn't add anything to a successful tank. It's more of a toy for the advanced users. Not necessary, can be added later.

Thanks for the advice, I'm really considering the jebaos now. Got my lighting sorted too I think, ATI sunpower plus reef brite strip in blue. Skimmer is next on my list to research!
For an ATO I was thinking the Tunze osmolator as it seems to be the most highly recommended on here and sounds reliable, and also was cheaper than I thought it would be. I have to admit it wasn't something I was planning on buying right away but listening to yours and others advice it sounds like that should come before the controller. If I go with the jebaos too I'll have saved plenty to cover an ATO.

formsix
04/14/2014, 02:47 PM
We're going through a similar thing with our build. We want quality and don't mind paying more for it, but the costs add up quickly and I don't believe that everything has to be "the best" for it to be a good choice.

We bought a custom tank (cause that's important!!), saved some $$ by building our own sump. Bought a Reef Octopus because it was half the price of the ReefLife and still gets plenty of good reviews. Maybe we'll regret that purchase, but right now I'm happy with it. Bought an Eheim pump and Jager heaters. Bought an RO/DI.

We were leaning towards an MP40, trying to get a used one, and then after lots of reading went with a Jeabo. If we can get a good deal on an MP40 sometime I think we'll upgrade, and the Jeabo can always be used to mix salt or as a backup. Doesn't seem like you can have too many powerheads in the reef world, so we just chose to buy the cheaper one first.

A controller and ATO are on the list of things to get in the next few months as the tank cycles (and our bank accounts recover)!

But then there are all the little things that are adding up super quickly. Stuff to build the stand. Stuff to plumb the system (that's costing 3x as much as I anticipated). A QT tank. Refractometer. Salt mix. Rocks and sand. It adds up to quite a lot of $$$, especially in the beginning. Yeah, you don't want to buy something so crappy that it will break in a month and you'll have to buy another, but at the same time it's kinda insane to jump in and buy the absolute best (i.e., most expensive) of everything.

benjc
04/14/2014, 03:33 PM
Buy quality used equipment; especially if this is your first build. There is a high dropout rate in this hobby and used equipment can often be had for half the price of new (with some exceptions like apex and vortechs which may hold 75% of their value).

ridetheducati
04/14/2014, 04:40 PM
there is a high dropout rate in this hobby and used equipment can often be had for half the price of new (with some exceptions like apex and vortechs which may hold 75% of their value).

+1

AdamNC
04/14/2014, 05:03 PM
I always look at it this way. Buy the best stuff you can comfortably afford, even is it means waiting longer to set it up.

jda
04/14/2014, 05:32 PM
Nearly every self made millionaire will tell you that nobody can afford to be cheap. There are people who don't get this (the majority), and they rarely accumulate any significant wealth.

If it were me:
150W Halides on Light Timers - use 14K phoenix bulbs changed every 24 months
Pair of 200W Ehiem Jagr Heaters
Used Tunze 6100s on a 7095 (I just got this set for $200 on CL and have seen the here for < $300)
Mag, Ehiem or Laguna Return Pump
Spend the most of the rest on a Skimmer
Save some back to put towards nice, porous live rock instead of dried or heavy stuff - it makes a huge difference (another thread for another day)

tkeracer619
04/14/2014, 06:32 PM
Sorry but I'm not maxing my budget on equipment, I have a separate budget for what goes in it. I should have specified that, didn't realise the assumptions people might make. I'm not just rushing into this wasting all my money on fancy equipment.

If you don't give us all the details we are left to assume.

I never said anything about wasting money on fancy equipment, I do not believe fancy stuff is a waste if appropriate. ex... I have 1/4 of your budget into my controller but I am recommending you start off without one. You said your reasoning for a controller was not to kill stuff. What you want is a battery backup on whatever power head you buy and an industrial temp controller like a ranco to control your heaters.

With a budget like that for equipment only you shouldn't have to skimp anywhere. You don't need to start with everything but if that is your preference then by all means go for it, you have the budget for it.

dwolson2
04/14/2014, 06:34 PM
Nearly every self made millionaire will tell you that nobody can afford to be cheap. There are people who don't get this (the majority), and they rarely accumulate any significant wealth.

If it were me:
150W Halides on Light Timers - use 14K phoenix bulbs changed every 24 months
Pair of 200W Ehiem Jagr Heaters
Used Tunze 6100s on a 7095 (I just got this set for $200 on CL and have seen the here for < $300)
Mag, Ehiem or Laguna Return Pump
Spend the most of the rest on a Skimmer
Save some back to put towards nice, porous live rock instead of dried or heavy stuff - it makes a huge difference (another thread for another day)

That's not a bad list. Metal halides aren't as popular as they once were, but they are still great lights. And since a lot of people are jumping on the led band wagon, you can get them a lot cheaper. The Laguna pump can be found on eBay, and is one of the best pumps for the money.

Fishfins
04/15/2014, 12:22 AM
If you don't give us all the details we are left to assume.



Sorry I didn't think it would help as I'm in the Uk, my budget for set up not including livestock is £3000.

AcroporAddict
04/15/2014, 01:38 AM
Sorry I didn't think it would help as I'm in the Uk, my budget for set up not including livestock is £3000.Looking at well maintained used equipment is definitely one way to stretch your budget. Most reefers that spend a lot of money on high quality stuff take care of it. I got an Alpha Vertex 300 skimmer that had been used for 6 months for US $650, about 45 cents on the dollar vs the $1450 new price.

Jpjedi
04/15/2014, 03:06 AM
Simple:

Vortech mp
Red dragon
Bubble king
Ghl profilux
Giesemann

This is top of the bill, anything less is inferior but cost effective. Since it is running 24/7 and a failure kan be a dissaster, i went for the best. And of course the royal exclusive products are by far the most quiet equipment.