First Saltwater tank looking for any advise :)

[Zer0.]

So i have kept several smaller fresh water tanks in the past (30gal., 55ish gal.)
Anyhow, I'm looking to start a saltwater reef tank. I am still looking at tanks. I am currently between a 120 gal rimless and a 150 gal regular tank. Think I'm leaning toward the rimless however. Once i get my tank and stand i plan on getting the largest sump/refugium that will fit in my stand under the tank. So far my planned out equipment is....

lighting Razor maxspect 300w 46inch 16k led
pump - Danner Mag-Drive Supreme 12 1200 GPH Pump
powerheads - Hydor SmartWave 1150 Kit
Two Hagen Fluval E 200 Watt Aquarium Heater
AquaMaxx EcoMaxx EM200 In-Sump Protein Skimmer
AutoAqua Smart ATO Automatic Top Off System
Bulk Reef Supply 4 Stage Value PLUS RO/DI System - 75GPD
Coralife Marine Salt 200 lb
sand - 160 Lb Bahama Aragonite Sand
dry rock - 100 Pounds Key Largo
Aquacultured Live Rock ( seed rock ) 30 pounds

Inhabitant wise, I plan on stocking light to moderate with reef safe and from my research hardier "easier" to care for fish and eventually some hardier soft corals and/or LPS corals.

Fish wise I plan to start with a pair of Ocellaris Clowns (after the tank has finished its cycle and amonia and nitrite are reading 0.) My other possible fish would be a midas blenny, a yellow tang, a coral beuty or flame angel, perhaps some kind of goby. Other inhabitents, various snails, cleaner shrimp, and some still to be determined corals.

My main questions are will this equipment/setup be a good start to my first saltwater endevour? Have I missed anything? Is any of this equipment not a good choice? Also I have heard both good and bad recommendations "seeding" dry rock, I hope it would work fine as it would def help me not go too much farther over my budget than I already am :eek:. Any and all advise would be greatly appreciated! :bounce1:

Thanks for your time,
Matt

[nicholasb]

The rodi is the best investment you can make. Using 75% dry rock will save you $$$. It will soon turn live.Try adding a bottle of Dr tim's one and only to help boost the nitrogen cycle.
Only add fish when ammonia is zero, and very slowly. Adding to many fish at once could start a second cycle and kill your fish. You will also need some sort of Phos ban reactor filled with G.F.O. to remove the phosphates, and activated carbon in the same reactor, or another one. B.R.S T.V on you tube have vids on this. Skimmer sounds good. You need 1.5* your tank volume. Can't help you with the rest. Good luck, it's looks like you are starting slowly which is always best!!!.

[sponger0]

My thoughts:

First the set up. Nice lights. For the return, I would pick something quieter. Reef Octopus makes a variable speed pump and sicce are ultra quiet. Both also are low on heat. So saving energy is always good.

Skimmer Im like the Reef Octopus. Also a new line of skimmers with the DC pumps. Has a controller and a setting to shutof during feeding for 10 minutes.

Key largo rock is awesome. I have some now in saltwater for my new tank.

Check out the Jebao powerheads. Very comparable to Vortechs but fraction of the cost. People seem to like them alot. Im waiting for mine to come in on a group buy so I can say first hand.

But it really comes down you what youre budget is. But definately get some quality equipment. Id would definately recommend looking at other return pumps. They have alot better options than mag drives now. They do work but they are noisy. Thats my biggest thing.

[frogdog]

Hi Zer0. I'm going through this same exercise right now, so I wanted to add a couple of comments.

Regarding stocking, there's a great thread under this "New to the Hobby" at the top, specifically about stocking. Ask your questions about fish stocking there. It's a great thread.

About the equipment, it's kind of like aiming at a moving target. Before you can decide definitively on any of that, you have to first decide on exactly what size your display tank will be. Measurements and gallons. And the size/shape of your stand/furniture holding the tank. Only after that is decided can you choose the size of the sump. You can't choose the size of the sump until you have a good idea of the footprint of all the stuff that you want to fit underneath with the sump. After you have picked the sump and know its size and measurements, *then* you can make final decisions on the other equipment because it's only then that you'll know exactly how many gallons you'll be moving around. Personally, I'm not buying any equipment until my display tank and sump are in and plumbed. So the return pump will be the first equipment purchase. But that's me.

How much sand and rock and how you stock the tank will depend a lot on the shape and volume of your main tank, so you should wait on deciding definitively on that too.

One last comment. Some people think that dry rock needs to be "cooked" first to liberate phosphates that may be "locked in" and liberated later when they can wreak havoc on your display tank. You might want to read up on that. If you do choose to cook your dry rocks, that can take weeks.

Have fun. I look forward to hearing about your setup.

[Zer0.]

Wow, thanks for the quick responses guys. guess i picked the right reef site to join :celeb3:. I know it is hard to plan out and pick all the equipment before actually getting the tank/sump, just really wanted to get an idea mostly for budgeting.

I had seen alot of good reviews for the mag series return pumps but then again alot of the info was posted years ago, definetly would like something fairly quiet and heat/power efficient.

Looks like I did definitely skip over the chemical filtration section :facepalm:. I assume G.F.O and carbon are the two pretty much required chemical filters that almost everyone runs? Also is it normally a good idea to use a smaller pump to run water from sump through G.F.O/Carbon back into sump for this? Or would i be better off just getting a slightly stronger return pump to overcome the pressure loss from running through the filtration media inline back up to the display case?

I've also been looking around at a economic centralized controller such as the Apex Jr. It seems using this i could cut out the wavemaker controller for the powerheads, not have to have feeding time controllers on/ or manually shut off my powerheads/pump, as well as control temperature (have read quite a few bad reviews on using heaters with built in thermostats.)

Ill look into this whole cooking dry rock as well. From what I have gathered phosphate levels are definitely no bueno in a reef tank.

Again thanks a lot for the advise. Still got some studying/saving up to do I think :reading:,
Matt

[sponger0]

GFO and carbon arent a necessary.

GFO is to help with pulling phosphates out of the water

Carbon cleans out any impurities and helps polish the water

But I wouldnt call them necessary.

If you get key largo rock, you shouldnt have to cook the rock. It doesnt contain phosphates

[nicholasb]

A phos ban reactor will come with it's own pump rated for the job, and are quite cheep. You need to pass your tank volume through your reactor about 6 times per day.

[Zer0.]

Thanks guys, I was looking at getting my dry rock and sand from Marcorocks.com if that makes any difference.

[sponger0]

Marco rock is key largo lol. So same stuff

[Zer0.]

Still a little confused on the what water parameters need to be maintained and how as well. So far i see temp., phosphate, salinity, ph, alkalinity, calcium and magnesium.
I am pretty unsure about the last 3. I always kinda thought ph and alkalinity were the same thing. :hmm5:

[mgrmax]

This is a great explanation I still read from time to time.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2152814

[cmcoker]

Something to think about regarding whether or not to go rimless is what your fish stocking list will be. You probably won't want to add a screen of any type to a rimless tank, which will eliminate some fish that like to jump, like most types of wrasses.
Your alkalinity and pH are related, but alk is more important to maintain with additives and the pH should follow. Supplements for alk and calcium shouldn't take really be an issue till you get corals going. You just want to make sure your pH is not having wild swings

[Zer0.]

Something to think about regarding whether or not to go rimless is what your fish stocking list will be. You probably won't want to add a screen of any type to a rimless tank, which will eliminate some fish that like to jump, like most types of wrasses.

Yeah I looked into that. I don't believe i was looking at getting any fish that are normally jumpers. (ocellaris clowns, yellow tang, coral beuty, midas blenny was my main fish stock list) Is there any other down side to a rimless other than the potential jumpers? I wasn't sure if it significantly increased evaporation or any other unseen consequences.

This is a great explanation I still read from time to time.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2152814
Thanks! That helps alot.

[JMorris271]

PH wide swings is what the the alkalinity is about. It acts as a buffer against ths swinging.

[cmcoker]

I was referring to adding alkalinity, depending on method such as kalk, if done too quickly could spike ph..

[Stolireef]

This is just my opinion, but I do not believe that GFO is at all necessary for a successful tank. You can achieve basically the same result by apply good water husbandry methods and by ensuring that you have a healthy bacterial population in the tank. I wouldn't add such a reactor until your tank has been up for a while. If you start having serious algae problems, then perhaps consider a reactor. Other than typical new tank cyano, I've never had an algae problem that couldn't be rectified with better husbandry.

Mag pumps are fine and have been an industry staple forever. They are not typically considered 'state of the art' but are reliable and easy to fix/maintain. DC pumps have been rapidly growing in popularity because they are (a) adjustable (b) very quiet and (c) energy efficient.

Finally, I'm a believer in getting high quality equipment once. I would thus avoid knockoffs such as the Jebao for any critical components of your tank. I'm not saying you have to go with a Cadilac such as a Ecotech or Tunze, but I wouldn't want my tank running on a Yugo.

[Zer0.]

So assuming I keep my alk. in the right range, do I even need to measure and track ph?

Also, Stoli do you have any recommendations for return pump? I was originally looking at spending about $130 on a mag 12, I'd like to try not to spend too too much more than that, however, energy efficient and very quite sounds good.

[Stolireef]

If that's your budget, then the pump is not a bad choice. That said, unless you plan on running other things off the return (eg. fuge feed, Ca Rx Feed, etc.) it's more pump than you will need and you'll likely have to dial it back to avoid overwhelming your overflow (of course, this depends on the size of your overflow). By way of example, I'm running a Sicce 4 which puts out about 950 GPH on my 110. I also feed my fuge and my Ca Rx with it. I still have to dial it back by about 30% to keep from overwhelming my 1.5" overflow. You'll know you have too much flow when you start hearing a flushing noise from your overflow.

[Zer0.]

If that's your budget, then the pump is not a bad choice. That said, unless you plan on running other things off the return (eg. fuge feed, Ca Rx Feed, etc.) it's more pump than you will need and you'll likely have to dial it back to avoid overwhelming your overflow (of course, this depends on the size of your overflow). By way of example, I'm running a Sicce 4 which puts out about 950 GPH on my 110. I also feed my fuge and my Ca Rx with it. I still have to dial it back by about 30% to keep from overwhelming my 1.5" overflow. You'll know you have too much flow when you start hearing a flushing noise from your overflow.

The tank I'm looking at is...
Planet Aquariums 120 gallon rimless
external overflow
48"x24"x25"
(2) 1” drains, (1) 3/4” return

I'd spend anywhere up to $200 on the return pump if its going to be quiter and more energy effiecent than the mag12 (I also can imagine the dial down ability is nice, although i could always plumb in a line with a variable ball valve going back into the sump from the return to adjust flow without restricting the pumps output)

P.S. I assume i do need to run carbon even if i dont run G.F.O. what is the best way to do this? reactor off main pump?

[Stolireef]

You shouldn't assume you need to run any media. I run carbon occasionally to polish the water a bit. Toss it in a media bag (or an old stocking) and drop it in a high flow area of my sump. I use maybe a cup one week per month and I'm not really sure it does anything.

IMO, if you have the skills, it's best to dry plumb your pump and use either a ball or gate valve to control the flow. That said, the DC pumps give you a great amount of flexibility even without such a valve. Some pumps (such as the Sicces) give you the ability to adjust the input on the pump but only if it is used in a wet install (where the pump is in your sump under the water). I didn't realize you were going with two drains. As such, I suspect the Mag12 would be fine. That said, you don't want a really high flow rate through your sump. Your flow in your tank should not rely on the return pump but rather circulation pumps in the tank.

[Dangleflow9]

Sounds like you've got a good starter kit. Before the clowns, I would put in your cleaner crew (crabs, snails, shrimp, etc). They will help regulate your cycle a bit more by consuming some of the dead stuff on your seed rock.

I seeded my tank with rock from Gulf View. I've got fantastic coralline algae coverage because of it. The purples and greys look phenomenal. Just make sure you carefully inspect each rock for pests such as stone crabs before putting into your tank. Remove any and all dead things as well. w

[Zer0.]

IMO, if you have the skills, it's best to dry plumb your pump and use either a ball or gate valve to control the flow. That said, the DC pumps give you a great amount of flexibility even without such a valve. Some pumps (such as the Sicces) give you the ability to adjust the input on the pump but only if it is used in a wet install (where the pump is in your sump under the water). I didn't realize you were going with two drains. As such, I suspect the Mag12 would be fine. That said, you don't want a really high flow rate through your sump. Your flow in your tank should not rely on the return pump but rather circulation pumps in the tank.
Hadn't looked much into setting up a dry pump.

I plan on putting the return section in the middle of my sump and the refugium off to the side and feeding the refugium by way of a T'ed off ball valve from the return line. This way i can have a slow and controllable flow thru the refuge while having a quicker flow thru the skimmer and return section. Again this is all based on research i have done and not practical experience as i have never had a sump before :worried:

[Zer0.]

Sounds like you've got a good starter kit. Before the clowns, I would put in your cleaner crew (crabs, snails, shrimp, etc). They will help regulate your cycle a bit more by consuming some of the dead stuff on your seed rock.


I thought of this as well but had been advised by a few people to wait on the shrimp and some of the other inverts as they are not as "hardy" as the clowns and more sensitive to.... ummmm.... I think maybe it was nitrate the LFS guy around here had told me.

[Stolireef]

I thought of this as well but had been advised by a few people to wait on the shrimp and some of the other inverts as they are not as "hardy" as the clowns and more sensitive to.... ummmm.... I think maybe it was nitrate the LFS guy around here had told me.

Nah. Start with a small clean up crew. Then add your clowns a few days later. If your cycle is complete, you shouldn't have a problem.

Until my current build, I always did a wet return. Now that I have a dry return, I can't imagine running a tank any other way. It's so much easier and cleaner in just about every possible way. It does take longer to set it up but the results are well worth the extra effort.

[cmcoker]

I thought of this as well but had been advised by a few people to wait on the shrimp and some of the other inverts as they are not as "hardy" as the clowns and more sensitive to.... ummmm.... I think maybe it was nitrate the LFS guy around here had told me.

yes wait for shrimp, but snails and hermit crabs are fine

[Zer0.]

My thoughts:

First the set up. Nice lights. For the return, I would pick something quieter. Reef Octopus makes a variable speed pump and sicce are ultra quiet. Both also are low on heat. So saving energy is always good.

Skimmer Im like the Reef Octopus. Also a new line of skimmers with the DC pumps. Has a controller and a setting to shutof during feeding for 10 minutes.

Key largo rock is awesome. I have some now in saltwater for my new tank.

Check out the Jebao powerheads. Very comparable to Vortechs but fraction of the cost. People seem to like them alot. Im waiting for mine to come in on a group buy so I can say first hand.

But it really comes down you what youre budget is. But definately get some quality equipment. Id would definately recommend looking at other return pumps. They have alot better options than mag drives now. They do work but they are noisy. Thats my biggest thing.

Thinking I might go with the Jaboe powerheads/controller. Think I'd be better off with a pair of WP25's? or the WP40's. Wasn't sure if the 40's would be too much flow.

Think I might stick with the aquamaxx em200 skimmer. its only $300 and has great reviews.

Also what would be a good DC return pump for this tank? probably in the medium to high medium price range. Always appreciate your guys insights :thumbsup:

edit: would the Reef Octopus Diablo DC 3500 Variable Speed Water Pump be a good return for this setup?

[frogdog]

Nah. Start with a small clean up crew. Then add your clowns a few days later. If your cycle is complete, you shouldn't have a problem.

Until my current build, I always did a wet return. Now that I have a dry return, I can't imagine running a tank any other way. It's so much easier and cleaner in just about every possible way. It does take longer to set it up but the results are well worth the extra effort.

Why is the dry return better?

[Stolireef]

First, maintaining the pump is much easier if plumbed correctly (in true unions). Second, it's much easier to plumb feeds to other equipment. Third it's actually easier to route pvc in your stand than heavy tubing used for the return. Fourth it's easier to install and adjust ball valves on pvc. I'm sure there are more reasons but these come to mind.

[igot2gats]

If you're going the dry rock route, I would advise to give your rock an acid bath. That way, you're protected from phosphates leaching.

[Zer0.]

If you get key largo rock, you shouldnt have to cook the rock. It doesnt contain phosphates

If you're going the dry rock route, I would advise to give your rock an acid bath. That way, you're protected from phosphates leaching.

Hmmm, sponger was telling me that wouldn't be necessary for the type of rock I was looking at getting. I mean i guess it couldn't hurt but would like to avoid it if its not necessary.

[Zer0.]

Looking at DC return pumps... seems like the way to go. Between the Diablo 3500 and the Jebao 9000.... any thoughts on what would be best for this setup? Leaning towards the Diablo, the Jebao has higher output but I'm not sure if its needed.

[cmcoker]

Yeah I looked into that. I don't believe i was looking at getting any fish that are normally jumpers. (ocellaris clowns, yellow tang, coral beuty, midas blenny was my main fish stock list) Is there any other down side to a rimless other than the potential jumpers? I wasn't sure if it significantly increased evaporation or any other unseen consequences.


Thanks! That helps alot.

missed this one.. I have a 55g that I was running open top, I was evaporating almost a gallon a day. however the way my lights are setup the fan from my lights were hitting the water some. I have since added tops after adding a wrasse and my evaporation is about half.