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Louis Z
05/15/2014, 07:47 PM
The idiot did a real good number on the collecting industry, I wouldn't doubt that this is what pushes it over the edge. Pulling out someone's regulator to cause harm sounds like attempted murder.

Louis Z
05/16/2014, 06:18 AM
http://www.wptv.com/news/local-news/water-cooler/rene-umberger-scuba-divers-regulator-pulled-off-underwater-caught-on-camera-off-kona-coast

HumbleFish
05/16/2014, 09:02 AM
Hopefully they just prosecute the diver, and don't turn this into a "let's ban everything" bandwagon thing.

Amoore311
05/16/2014, 09:23 AM
A certain Salt Water Aquarist Blog that can't be mentioned here has a bit more of the full story.

Don't jump to conclusions.

Mattewell
05/16/2014, 01:58 PM
Ok, so what are the rest of the details?

Amoore311
05/16/2014, 02:44 PM
Look them up. Google is your friend.

Reef Central doesn't want the blog posted here.... I sure as hell am not going to break the rules and loose my account for you lol.

shifty51008
05/16/2014, 04:58 PM
I highly doubt they will ban yellow tangs because of this.

And yes that is only one side of the story, while i dont agree with what he did to her underwater i do admit she was also pushing their buttons.

Louis Z
05/17/2014, 08:58 AM
Well I clicked on the YouTube video link and came up no longer available since the YouTube acct has been terminated

Joe0813
05/17/2014, 11:45 AM
Ill have to look this up when I get home

Timfish
05/17/2014, 05:22 PM
Well, this round goes to the activists! The suspect certainly played into Ms Umberger's hands! And if he was collecting illegally as some of the stories say I hope he get's prosecuted for more than just his/her attack on Ms Umberger. But looking at a couple of the stories the risk seems hyped to me. It's certainly disconcerting to have your regulator pulled off in a dive but when it happened to me once I didn't feel like it was life threatening, just stuck it back in my mouth and cleared my mask like I was trained too when I got certified.

mm949
05/18/2014, 10:20 AM
u can collect in FRA zones.. funny a lawyer should know it's against the law to come within 500ft of a working fisher.
personally it sounds staged to me, time will tell

ChadRaay86
05/18/2014, 03:11 PM
From what it looks like, I would equate her to an anti-whaling ship. If she was indeed messing with them and had a history of doing it she should be prosecuted as well. Not a smart move by the diver, but understandable if she was messing with them. Its not smart to mess with anyone under the water as the aggressor or just being pesky, but this wasn't attempted murder and if she's trained its as simple as grabbing your reg back. Just my 2 cents

BrentH
05/19/2014, 12:28 PM
I just saw the video and read the article I think the activist were out out line .... Hawaii states that everything is totally sustainable with yellow tang but I'm on both sides of the fence and I am a little bit of a tree hugger don't like to see the ocean raped at the same time one thing I think people don't realize is most hobbyist are ocean lovers not out to hurt it

Timfish
05/21/2014, 06:54 AM
Ret Talbot with Reef 2 Rainforest has a good right up on this. Jay Lovell, the fish collector in question here, was collecting legally unlike what was implied in a couple of reports I read, and contacted authorities as soon as he surfaced. What is scary is how far Sea Sheppard seems to be willing to go even in the face of research by scientists from several universities, government agencies and the World Wildlife Fund that show Yellow Tangs harvests are sustainable.

Keoki18
05/21/2014, 01:34 PM
Regardless of who was at fault, the action taken should not have occured. As a diver, this is a horrible display of safety. If there was an issue, there should have been an abort of the dive and an immediate call to the authorities.

This being said, I do love my hobby and my job, but believe that we are over fishing off the hawaiian islands.

GreshamH
05/27/2014, 03:53 PM
So Keoki19.... you don't trust the science used to arrive at the fishery being that of sustainable? What flaws are you seeing?

h2hiero
05/27/2014, 04:39 PM
Once u give someone the go ahead to fish out of the ocean for money. You open it up to many things that are going to happen that will not be seen but damn sure not what they are suppose to be doing.

If you think these "legal fishers" are being 100% legal you are out of your mind. They are doing all they can to be rich they do not care about the ocean or what lives and dies they are basically drug dealers but for fish.

billsreef
05/27/2014, 05:12 PM
If you think these "legal fishers" are being 100% legal you are out of your mind. They are doing all they can to be rich they do not care about the ocean or what lives and dies they are basically drug dealers but for fish.

How many commercial fisherman do you actually know? While there are indeed some (like in any line of work or population of people) that will break the laws and simply not care beyond immediate profit, most commercial fisherman do follow the regulations (even if some of them grip about them), and do care about ocean.

GreshamH
05/28/2014, 11:41 AM
How many commercial fisherman do you actually know? While there are indeed some (like in any line of work or population of people) that will break the laws and simply not care beyond immediate profit, most commercial fisherman do follow the regulations (even if some of them grip about them), and do care about ocean.

That's been my lifelong experience.

There is always a rotten apple in the bunch, but having grown up with commercial fisherman, knowing scores of marinelife collectors, I can say the majority care more about the ocean then most the population.

Keoki18
06/01/2014, 01:41 PM
So Keoki19.... you don't trust the science used to arrive at the fishery being that of sustainable? What flaws are you seeing?

The fishing laws and regulations around the Hawaiian islands is based on population densities that are not always true. Survey teams are not doing the best job at recording and classifying species that are at risk of decline. Studies also neglect to yeild caution in removing species in the ecological food web. The Polynesian reef chains are a very small ecosystem when compared to the rest of the Indo-pacific.

We also lose far to many individuals during culls of ornemantal fish species. Yellow tangs are at special risk of this.

What I am not saying is that collectors are horrible people who care nothing for the oceans. They do. I support the families of fishermen and the men themselves, but I am concerned about the politics behind managing such a fragile system.

This also being said, I do not care for how crazy activists can be during protests. What happened in that video should have never happened. Period.

Timfish
06/02/2014, 10:32 AM
Here's the Hawai'i Department of Aquatic Resources 2010 report to the Legisltaure if anyone's interested. (I'm looking forward to the next DAR report next year, I've heard in 2010, 2011 and 2012 both the number of Yellow tangs collected and the over all population increased.)

http://files.hawaii.gov/dlnr/reports-to-the-legislature/2010/dar/DAR10-Hawaii-Fisheries-2010.pdf

Page 8 list's the Researchers and institutions conducting the surveys and the refference outlining the survey criteria. To quote from the report "To briefly summarize: Densities of all fish and selected invertebrate species are visually estimated along four 25X4m strip transects at each of 23 permanent sites in the three types of management areas. All survey divers either have extensive experience in conducting underwater fish surveys in Hawai'i or received training through the UH‟s Quantitative Underwater Ecological Survey Techniques (QUEST) training course prior to collecting data (Hallacher and Tissot, 1999). In addition to the transect surveys, a 10 minute "free - swim‟ survey is also conducted by two divers in the areas surrounding the actual transects. The purpose of this survey is to better census uncommon or rare species and species of particular ecological interest such as taape, roi, terminal phase parrot fish, cleaner wrasses and crown-of-thorns starfish. All sites are surveyed at least four times a year. As of December 2009, a total of 55 survey rounds of all study sites have been completed (>5,000 transects). Six rounds were conducted prior to FRA closure in 1999."


What I find concerning is in the apparent inverse relationship in the populations of certain fish with regards to Yellow Tangs in the FRAs (Fish Replenishment Areas). Quoting from page 11 "Yellow Tang density increased markedly (and significantly) in the FRAs while seven of 10 decreased (Achilles Tang, Multiband Butterflyfish and Brown Surgeonfish decreased significantly)." Since 2002 the Achilles Tang population has been consistently higher in the open areas to collection than in the FRAs. If further research bears out this relationship we might have a situation where we have to remove a specific percentage of the Yellow Tang population each year to preserve these other species*. At the very least this certainly shows just how complex this issue is.

*(This is reminds me somewhat of the problem we have in Texas with Whitetail Deer. We've eliminated their ecological controls, Mountain Lions, wolves and Screwworm Flies {the fly lays eggs on the umbilicus and the maggots eat the fawns alive} and now large ranches are given qoutas of how many dear have to be killed to prevent animals from starving to death.)

Keoki18
06/02/2014, 10:40 AM
^ Great post. This is my most important concern of limited ecosystem managment and the results of tampering with food webs. Thanks for sharing!

GreshamH
06/02/2014, 05:48 PM
The fishing laws and regulations around the Hawaiian islands is based on population densities that are not always true. Survey teams are not doing the best job at recording and classifying species that are at risk of decline. Studies also neglect to yeild caution in removing species in the ecological food web. The Polynesian reef chains are a very small ecosystem when compared to the rest of the Indo-pacific.

We also lose far to many individuals during culls of ornemantal fish species. Yellow tangs are at special risk of this.

What I am not saying is that collectors are horrible people who care nothing for the oceans. They do. I support the families of fishermen and the men themselves, but I am concerned about the politics behind managing such a fragile system.

This also being said, I do not care for how crazy activists can be during protests. What happened in that video should have never happened. Period.

Have you ever run a transect yourself? Or done any field work?

animalkingdom
06/03/2014, 07:30 AM
If we want to talk overfishing lets talk commercial food fish like Tuna. High demand is really causing an issue there. Ornamental fish like Yellow Tangs have a relatively low demand and are harvested at a quite sustainable rate as studies show. Before we start questioning the validity of such studies and pointing out flaws please remember that those who perform the studies are many times environmental enthusiast who care about the ocean and reefs too. That being said they dont intentionally garnish their data to support higher fishing and they take a lot of precautions to get accurate reliable data. We are limited by our abilities to estimate fish populations so yes studies may not show the whole story, but they do a darn good job of giving us the big picture. You cant fault the studies for limitations in our abilities to collect data. As time progresses new and better methods may arise, but we cant rely on future methods for today's results.

Keoki18
06/03/2014, 01:55 PM
Have you ever run a transect yourself? Or done any field work?

Yes and Yes. I hope I did not offend your ideas or work if my comments sound like they are an attack. That is certainly not my intention.

Doing field work (not in the hawaiian island chain but in the caribean) has shown me the difficulties in using section population densities in fish census studies. Now I will say that the article above was performed well, but I have contacts that work in the pacific ring that have noted the declines in hawiian ornamental species. This is all hear say for me, but does have scientific backing.

Again, I do enjoy the fish trade and hobby, but there needs to be better managment. This was my comment. In the article, you can see that yellow tang populations are up, but other species are in decline. This also does not show the percent death of collected species either. The article is also 4 years old.

Keoki18
06/03/2014, 01:59 PM
Overfishing also pertains to culling more individuals than are needed. Just because tang populations are up, doesn't mean that we are not taking more than we needed.

Illhaveanother
06/03/2014, 04:15 PM
The population numbers for yellow tangs are abundant . For now.

billsreef
06/03/2014, 05:03 PM
Again, I do enjoy the fish trade and hobby, but there needs to be better managment.

I don't think anyone will really argue the need for good management. However, we can only go with the best data we have, anything else is purely guess work.

In the article, you can see that yellow tang populations are up, but other species are in decline.

That actually begs for more research into the reasons for that difference. Naturally overall management needs to be more of an ecosystem approach instead of purely a targeted species approach. After all, no species lives in isolation.

This also does not show the percent death of collected species either. The article is also 4 years old.


While that certainly should be an ethical concern for us as aquarists, it is totally irrelevant from a sustainable fisheries standpoint. When it comes to managing a fishery, all caught fish are as good as dead. Doesn't matter to the sustainability of a fish stock if they are caught and killed or caught and kept in a tank.

GreshamH
06/03/2014, 05:23 PM
Yes and Yes. I hope I did not offend your ideas or work if my comments sound like they are an attack. That is certainly not my intention.

Doing field work (not in the hawaiian island chain but in the caribean) has shown me the difficulties in using section population densities in fish census studies. Now I will say that the article above was performed well, but I have contacts that work in the pacific ring that have noted the declines in hawiian ornamental species. This is all hear say for me, but does have scientific backing.

Again, I do enjoy the fish trade and hobby, but there needs to be better managment. This was my comment. In the article, you can see that yellow tang populations are up, but other species are in decline. This also does not show the percent death of collected species either. The article is also 4 years old.

Oh man, I've got pretty thick skin... no offense at all, just trying to figure you out :D I've been active in the MO sustainability subject for as long as I can recall so seeing new players interests me a lot :)

I happen to work in the industry (we sell to Shedd), the last 9 years I've been working for a company that is mainly an aquaculture feed producer, but we do MO feeds as well.

melvinakshay
06/04/2014, 12:48 AM
Lol I think for now they should stick to protecting some endangered species of insects in California or maybe the desert tortoise from Bundys ranch.

Keoki18
06/04/2014, 10:57 AM
Oh man, I've got pretty thick skin... no offense at all, just trying to figure you out :D I've been active in the MO sustainability subject for as long as I can recall so seeing new players interests me a lot :)

I happen to work in the industry (we sell to Shedd), the last 9 years I've been working for a company that is mainly an aquaculture feed producer, but we do MO feeds as well.

Very cool! I'm glad that you (and many others on this forum) have good hands on insight. It's so easy to point fingers, but there is always to sides to the coin as everyone is mentioning.

The percent death is totally an ethical argument, one in which I hold to be important, but anyone with the comment that removing the fish alive or dead doesn't really matter in sustainability is totally correct.

thenewguy997
06/10/2014, 01:16 PM
Omg not the yellow tang!!!!! LOL

Theres more endamgered species cmon man yellow tang is least concern

What about the giant man eating squid now THATS an issue! :o

GreshamH
06/10/2014, 02:37 PM
When it comes to endangered species, any endangerment is bad.... no degree of endangerment of a species is a good thing.

thenewguy997
06/11/2014, 11:40 PM
When it comes to endangered species, any endangerment is bad.... no degree of endangerment of a species is a good thing.

Touche' sir (: I happen to agree with you completely.