vinegar AND vodka dosing

[madadi]

So I usually dose 30-60ml of vinegar in small amounts every 3 hours per day. Lately I wanted to mix in a little vodka so come out to around 1-2ml per day in same container. My question is since this is in the same container without circulation, will the two form a uniform mixture or will this be stratified with alcohol being more concentrated at the top or at the bottom of the water column. thanks for any input!!!

bonus question, what if I threw in some sugar in the mix? :eek2:

[kevin_austin]

So I usually dose 30-60ml of vinegar in small amounts every 3 hours per day. Lately I wanted to mix in a little vodka so come out to around 1-2ml per day in same container. My question is since this is in the same container without circulation, will the two form a uniform mixture or will this be stratified with alcohol being more concentrated at the top or at the bottom of the water column. thanks for any input!!!

bonus question, what if I threw in some sugar in the mix? :eek2:

I've been using Seachem Reef Calcium with similar effect. If any one works for you, is there a need to mix them?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Vinegar and vodka will mix completely and never separate or stratify. If the sugar is dissolved, it too will not separate back out. :)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Seachem Reef Calcium

I've never been a fan of that product because it isn't clear how much alkalinity it adds (not clear to Seachem, either).

[kevin_austin]

Seachem Reef Calcium

I've never been a fan of that product because it isn't clear how much alkalinity it adds (not clear to Seachem, either).

Have you tried it and monitored alkalinity? You post seems rather vague.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would never use that product, so no, I haven't measured it. It cannot be measured outside of a reef tank.

But it is clear that it provides some alkalinity in the form of the polygluconate that is potentially metabolized. If it were fully metabolized by organisms, that product would be a balanced calcium and alkalinity supplement method, like Saliferts All In One.

If the polygluconate is not metabolized at all, and either builds up in the tank or is somehow exported as is, then it provides no alkalinity.

It is not clear to me or to Seachem how much of the polygluconate is actually metabolized in any given reef tank, so it is not clear how much alkalinity it provides.

[kevin_austin]

I would never use that product, so no, I haven't measured it. It cannot be measured outside of a reef tank.

But it is clear that it provides some alkalinity in the form of the polygluconate that is potentially metabolized. If it were fully metabolized by organisms, that product would be a balanced calcium and alkalinity supplement method, like Saliferts All In One.

If the polygluconate is not metabolized at all, and either builds up in the tank or is somehow exported as is, then it provides no alkalinity.

It is not clear to me or to Seachem how much of the polygluconate is actually metabolized in any given reef tank, so it is not clear how much alkalinity it provides.

Well, then you are simply speculating. Having actually used the product, I haven't noticed any measurable change in alkalinity and I've seen much better skimmer performance.

This is how rumors get started. :)

[madadi]

Kevin must be new around here. JK

The reason I am mixing is because it seems in the past that some bacteria utilize vinegar or vodka better and give it an advantage over other strains. This is just my opinion and observation from my own tank. No experiments conducted. I have noticed this with cyano bacteria, but that might be a nitrate limited bacterial growth issue when dosing too much vodka. So for this reason I like to mix the two and glad I can put them in same container without issues. I was worried of inconsistent dosing ratio due to settling in a jug without circulation. thanks Randy

[kevin_austin]

Kevin must be new around here. JK
...

Ah, yes, never question the local expert. :bigeyes:

Seriously though, there are way too many myths in the hobby, many perpetrated by definitive statements made by local "experts" who haven't actually attempted the thing they are expounding upon. Having been keeping fish for 35 years and reef tanks for 15, I've seen way to much of that.

Let's try to keep it a bit more "sciency" if we can. Remember, observation trumps theory.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well, then you are simply speculating. Having actually used the product, I haven't noticed any measurable change in alkalinity and I've seen much better skimmer performance.

This is how rumors get started

:lol:

Yes this is how truth gets spread as well. Were you dosing an alkalinity supplement as well? How do you know the calcium part added no alkalinity over the days following addition?


FWIW, you may not accept that I understand what is going on despite being a professional chemist with dozens of reef chemistry articles having been published, but I did bring this up publicly years ago with Seachem on this board and they agreed. Unfortunately, I'd give you the link but it is no longer active when they stopped being a sponsor. Maybe I can get the powers that be to bring it back.

So no, it is not speculation to say that these things can happen and that Seachem agrees it is complicated.

They explicitly say on their web site:

" it provides a rich source of metabolic energy to help maintain peak coral growth"

If it provides a source of metabolic energy, then that implies that the polygluconate is metabolized, and if it is metabolized, then if MUST provide alkalinity.

The polygluconate is a negatively charged organic material. When any such material is metabolized all the way to CO2 (as a sugar like this will be once the polymer is broken down), you must be left with a negative charge, and that negative charge is OH-/HCO3- (which provides alkalinity).

In this article I explain that process for the Salifert All in One, which is the related material calcium acetate:
How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

from it:

One-part balanced additive systems: Calcium Acetate
Calcium acetate is a product that has gotten relatively little publicity despite its apparent ease of use and the commercial availability to aquarists. In some ways it is similar to the combination of limewater and vinegar.16 When dissolved in water (fresh or salt), you have calcium ions and acetate ions. The acetate is rapidly metabolized by tank organisms to form bicarbonate, carbon dioxide, and water:

CH3COO- (acetate) + 2 O2 → HCO3- + CO2 + H2O

This equation suggests that pH of such tanks may stay near the low end of normal, because of the excess carbon dioxide, but the practical experience of people using calcium acetate suggests that this is not a big concern.

Calcium acetate may also facilitate the conversion of nitrate to nitrogen gas (N2)16 in anoxic regions of live sand and rock by providing the carbon source necessary for the process (but this has not been demonstrated one way or the other). The equation below shows the process that could take place:

5 CH3COO- (acetate) + 8 NO3- → 10 CO2 + 4 N2 + 13 OH- + H2O

One of the sources of calcium acetate to aquarists is Salifert’s All in One (a product that also contains some strontium, amino acids, and some trace elements). It is a liquid product that can be poured directly into a tank with no immediate concerns about pH. The current version of their commercial product is 250,000-mg/L calcium acetate, so it contains the equivalent of 3,160 meq/L of alkalinity. This products sells in the US for about $31.50/L. Consequently, it costs about $10.00 per thousand meq/L of alkalinity. That price makes it very expensive for a tank with a large demand for calcium and alkalinity, but the zero initial costs make it attractive for small tanks, especially nano-reef tanks.

I have no information on the purity of the material, or the exact nature of the “trace elements” in it. Everything in the bottle will be delivered to the tank. It poses no unusual safety concerns. The upper limit to how much calcium and alkalinity can be supplied to a tank in this fashion depends on two factors. If the metabolism of acetate is rapid and the dose is very high, oxygen might be depleted. If the conversion is slow then acetate can build up in the tank (not itself a significant concern except perhaps at very high levels where it might confound an alkalinity test2). Habib Sekha of Salifert has indicated that using the doses recommended on the bottle will not lead to either of these issues being problematic.

Overdosing is not expected to be an unusual problem, but if one makes significant additions in this fashion, the alkalinity will take time to show up completely in the tank because the acetate takes time to be metabolized. Consequently, I’d wait a day after adding it to measure alkalinity. Calcium measurement won’t be similarly impacted. Tank salinity will not increase over time using calcium acetate.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Let's try to keep it a bit more "sciency" if we can.

OMG, I can't think if a single reader of my tens of thousands of posts on reef chemistry who has ever thought there was not enough science in my posts. Far more often, it is the opposite. :lol:

[kevin_austin]

[Wall of words deleted].

Well, then you are simply speculating. Having actually used the product, I haven't noticed any measurable change in alkalinity and I've seen much better skimmer performance.

This is how rumors get started

:lol:

...

So no, it is not speculation to say that these things can happen and that Seachem agrees it is complicated.



Yes, it is absolute speculation, unless the dictionary definition of speculation has changed.

You have the opportunity as an "expert" to attempt to test your claims (which are, again, rather vague). However, you simply spout theory that may or may not match experimental results (results that you could easily obtain).

I would suggest putting down the formulas, starting up a reef and actually taking measurements with the product that you are criticizing. You may feel, because of your status that you are beyond this. Let me inform you -- you aren't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

[madadi]

True I completely agree with your statement.

I would never dose seachem reef calcium though because its stating for every 1000mg of product, there is 50mg of calcium. what is the other 950mg? for some questions you really don't need scientific knowledge to make a sound decision. its just common sense. if you are dosing it for the carbon there are cheaper alternatives. I don't think anyone is dosing it to maintain calcium levels. I have no doubt it can increase skimmate, a very expensive way to increase skimmate though.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would suggest putting down the formulas, starting up a reef and actually taking measurements with the product that you are criticizing. You may feel, because of your status that you are beyond this. Let me inform you -- you aren't.

Lots and lots of people on RC and elsewhere have made accurate observations and then drew inaccurate conclusions from them because they didn't sufficiently understand the science behind it. If you do not understand the science here, then perhaps we can discuss it instead of just throwing out insults. :)

Can you provide experimental evidence for your assertion, aside from just asserting that it didn't provide alkalinity?

What was dosed, for how long, and what else was dosed, and what happened to calcium and alkalinity measurements during that time?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ah, success, I found a way to pull up the thread involving Seachem:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=616674

Seachem's response in this thread (with my bolding for emphasis):

"Yes, and if the -OH that remains is within the organism or is ultimately used by the organism then it is not going to contribute to carbonate alkalinity formation within the water column of the aquarium (which is where it was assumed your original question was concerned with). If however you were asking does the product boost carbonate alkalinity irrespective of location then, yes, it does. "

and

"In theory, yes, it could be a single source supplement for balanced Ca/Alk. However, this is likely not the case in practice given the many unknown variables encountered in most systems. "


This is, in fact, EXACTLY what I claimed above and which you dismissed as rumor.

It is a shame, however, that they have never changed their product description to reflect this issue. :(

[kevin_austin]

Ah, success, I found a way to pull up the thread involving Seachem:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=616674

Seachem's response in this thread (with my bolding for emphasis):

"Yes, and if the -OH that remains is within the organism or is ultimately used by the organism then it is not going to contribute to carbonate alkalinity formation within the water column of the aquarium (which is where it was assumed your original question was concerned with). If however you were asking does the product boost carbonate alkalinity irrespective of location then, yes, it does. "

and

"In theory, yes, it could be a single source supplement for balanced Ca/Alk. However, this is likely not the case in practice given the many unknown variables encountered in most systems. "


This is, in fact, EXACTLY what I claimed above and which you dismissed as rumor.

It is a shame, however, that they have never changed their product description to reflect this issue. :(

If your are claiming that "something might happen" because "its complicated," I believe that you believe that.

However, you provided FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) about a the product without any experimental observations.

As a chemist and someone who has published articles in the hobby, I would expect that you could focus at least a small portion of your dozens of tanks and 100s of on-going experiments on the analysis of this product (actually, I would suggest that you make your own so as not to have to rely on what Seachem puts in their product).

You have obviously built yourself an ivory tower here and are surrounded by yes-men. The things you say carry weight. Therefore, you should be sure to actually test your suppositions before making broad reaching, vague statements about any product. You can't simply ask a manufacturer to state all the processes with which their product might interact in a chaotic reef system -- we don't know that about almost any of what we do. That is just intellectually lazy: "You can't tell me with 100% certainty every effect your product might have an all aspects of my reef, so no one should use your product." Bah, you call yourself a scientist (I assume).

Here is your first experiment: fill up three syringes, one each of vodka, vinegar, and Seachem Reef Calcium, and dose them directly onto three different areas of your favorite coral. Report back the results.

As an aside, I find most articles I've read on the hobby far from rigorous. Even some of the better ones (Shimek export article, for example), use so few experimental sources/observations as to be nearly worthless (I would love to find out of Xenia can really pull out that much phosphorus).

When you earned your Ph.D., I assume that you had to actually prove something to be true (or false). In your research, you would have come to understand how hard that is. Otherwise, you would have just stopped at your bachelors or masters and worked in a lab somewhere, mixing vials together.

[kevin_austin]

True I completely agree with your statement.

I would never dose seachem reef calcium though because its stating for every 1000mg of product, there is 50mg of calcium. what is the other 950mg? for some questions you really don't need scientific knowledge to make a sound decision. its just common sense. if you are dosing it for the carbon there are cheaper alternatives. I don't think anyone is dosing it to maintain calcium levels. I have no doubt it can increase skimmate, a very expensive way to increase skimmate though.

Yes, I don't think I said anything too radical. Just try to be rigourous when your opinion carries a lot of weight.

In terms of the Seachem product, I'm guessing that the larger benefit will be from nutrient export rather than calcium addition (of course, that too is just speculation). My skimmer is "going crazy" with "brown gunk," but that could be caused from some other modification I may have made to the reef (or any number of things).

In terms of cost (for nutrient export), we would really need to experiment to determine how well a product like Seachem (there are a few similar products) works when compared to vodka or vinegar. Does it export more, less, the same? It could be that vodka is cheaper (not top shelf*, of course :lol:), but maybe not, depending on the effectiveness of the Seachem-like products.

We just can't answer those questions without trying them. The first person to dump vodka in their reef was just experimenting (or drunk). We need to keep an open mind and not let a single statement deter our quest for knowledge. :deadhorse1:

* SeaChem, per liter, looks to be the same price as a cheap vodka (around $10 - $11) and the dosage is 5 ml per 20 gallons. I'm not sure how that stacks up to the vodka dosing method. There is also the possibility of going with the components directly, which would be much cheap, but, again, would require experimentation.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm sorry that you are so convinced of your interpretation of your single observation, which might easily have other explanations, that you doubt the combined knowledge of the product manufacturer and a chemistry expert who has tested dozens of chemistry ideas, inventing some new ones and debunking others.

I am certain that this product supplies alkalinity, even if, as Seachem suggests, you might not detect it as a boost to alk in the water column since corals could be using it directly to supply calcification. We'll just have to agree to disagree. It is almost incontrovertable (IMO) and doesn't require testing to claim it to be a real effect to be concerned with. If you told me that you added sodium chloride to your tank, and that it didn't boost calcium and also raised the salinity, would it be reasonable for me to say that it is only rumor unless you actually try it? That said, I'd love to disprove every uninformed comment on RC. Unfortunately, while I have done it many times, I have far more important things to do with my time curing human diseases.

Before we disengage, let me propose some ways that you may be misinterpreting your own results. In each case, you are supplying alkalinity and yet may not notice an alkalinity "rise".

1. If you dosed only the Reef Calcium over time to maintain calcium, and not any alkalinity, and alkalinity stayed in a reasonable range, then that seems to prove that it is supplying alkalinity since alkalinity will be consumed as corals use calcium.

2. If you dosed only the Reef Calcium and some type of alkalinity supplement over time to maintain calcium and alkalinity, how would you know whether you were dosing as much alkalinity as you would need to exactly balance the calcium additions? That is, how would you know the polygluconate degradation is not contributing? You would have to do a very careful calculation of the exact amounts dosed, and would need to take into account the effect of water changes on both calcium and alkalinity. Unless you have done such a calculation for your own tank, I don't see how you can be in a position to discredit what Seachem and I said would happen.

3. Since both Seachem and I agree that the amount of alkalinity released would be very case dependent, and assuming you did the calculation in 2 and found no alkalinity contribution from the polygluconate, then how does one tank experience translate to "it doesn't happen". Not happening in your tank may be almost irrelevant to the impact on other tanks with other ways of exporting organics. This alone is a reason to suspect any individual "test" (even the one that you suggest I run) since it may not apply elsewhere.

As an aside, I find most articles I've read on the hobby far from rigorous.

If you are looking for non rigorous chemistry articles, you are barking up the wrong tree. That said, if you are concerned that I might be misleading folks, I challenge you to read my articles and find one that is not rigorous and/or misleading and lacking in scientific accuracy. Aside from my beginners series (which is toned down in jargon but still totally accurate), I say with pride that they are, aside from similar articles from Craig Bingman, the most rigorous reef chemistry articles available.

Here's the list of most of them:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102605

[arnoldrew]

I was a biology major for two years, but every time I try to read one of Randy's posts, my vision gets all blurry and when it finally clears up all I can see is "It's science, *****es!"

[madadi]

For what its worth I enjoy reading Randy's posts, and when it comes to reefing he is just one of us guys and I don't think he has ever given us the impression that he is on a high horse. His answers might sound a little "complex" but chemistry is his career so of course to us it will. Just sounds to me like Kevin is a little jealous or he works for seachem. :)

[Electrobes]

Kevin, I think you mis-understand Randy's point. Seachem themselves have claimed that it does, indeed, add Alkalinity to one's tank... they don't dispute that. Since it hasn't been measured, even by Seachem, it is simply unknown how much of it gets added to a tank. Randy's whole point for not adding it is because of that unknown, again something Seachem publicly admits to.

Its fact that it does add Alkalinity to one's tank (Again, Seachem, the maker of this product, admits to this), but unknown how much. Since Randy, personally doesn't want to add an unknown amount of Alk to his tank (he controls this by other means, quantitatively), why in the world would he test a product he doesn't need, worse yet, doesn't want.. given that unknown? He simply stated why he doesn't use that product. He used science to come to the conclusion why he doesn't use it, as he described above. There is no need to go further than that for his reefing needs.

It'd be like getting farted in the face. I already know I don't want that, and I don't need to measure the stink intensity or force of the fart to further prove I don't want it. Okay.. I don't know where THAT example came about. But anyways... hope everyone has a good day!

[madadi]

I don't know where that fart comment came from but when I look at your avatar I understood.

[Electrobes]

Hahahaha I forgot I had that!!

[kevin_austin]

You seem to be a master of straw man arguments. I never claimed that a single observation meant that it doesn't happen.

You claimed, without observation, that "something might happen" because it is "complicated."

Adding sodium chloride to the tank is a very different matter. You've already admitted that you don't know what will happen with Seachem Reef Calcium. So, yes it does require experimentation.

I can certainly start dissecting some of your articles if you like. I took a quick glance at you calcium article. Let me ask you, are all of those sources equally usable by corals? If so, how do you know? If not (or you don't know), why would you do a direct comparison based on concentration and cost?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I can certainly start dissecting some of your articles if you like.

Please do. If you detect something that is amiss, I always happy to change my mind about something. That said, I think it unlikely you will find something significant that wasn't true at the time it was published as most of these were reviewed by other reef scientists prior to publication. :)

I took a quick glance at you calcium article.

Not sure which one you mean. I've written many. Since you mention cost, do you mean this one?

How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm


Let me ask you, are all of those sources equally usable by corals?

What sources? You mean calcium supplements? If so, then the answer is a very clear yes, except those where the calcium stays bound to an organic chelator. I can't think of any calcium supplements that fit that description, although Seachem contended in that old thread that the Reef Calcium stays bound to the gluconate. I don't know if that is true, but it suspect it does not. Every other method (and all I compared in my calcium and alkalinity supplement article) provides exactly the same type of calcium (calcium ion) which has equal bioavailability. hence the cost comparision is (or was), IMO, perfectly valid. :)

You claimed, without observation, that "something might happen" because it is "complicated."

Please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say something might happen because it was complicated. I said that some amount of alkalinity will be provided and that one cannot tell exactly how much because it is complicated in a way that will vary from tank to tank. That is, as I said, also a reason that simple observation is not adequate to say what will happen on other tanks. If you do not see those as important differences, I suggest you simply go one believing what you have always believed, and disregard information provided by the manufacturer and a reef chemistry expert. :)


One final note, I see that you have not once actually said what you did and what your observation actually was. Since I provided several ways your possibly correct observation may have led you to an incorrect conclusion, I am skeptical that you actually did something that would have led to the valid conclusion that no alkalinity was provided. :)

[MetroKat]

Randy, I'm happy to see you back on the forums. Now I can stop bothering you on linked in with mundane questions about soluble silica and other stuff. :)
Good to see you.
-P

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:lol:

Happy Reefing. :)