Adding phosphate.

[2_zoa]

What's the best way to add phosphate to keep things in balance? I've not read of a DIY phosphate solution for those that are carbon dosing. It seems that at this point in time, my tank is limited on phosphate. The nitrates are up but the Hanna checker says zero phosphates. I don't have any algae issues just pail looking coral. I'm also not running any GFO or any other phosphate remover. The tank is newish, just over a year now. I've read Randy's article on phosphates and how much are in certain foods however, I'm still at a loss. I've been feeding pretty heavy and my 65 has 7 fish with no sump. All fish are juvies, about 2" long.

I feed a cube of frozen, 6-9 ml of phyto, a scoop or two of powered reef pearls. I'm not real sure how much the scoop is but it's real small. Simaliar to the powdered regent spoons in test kits like salifert.

Just yesterday I started adding fresh hatched artemia. I plan to add daily.

I dose 12 ml of vinegar a day and I clean the glass about once a week right now. I can't feed in the morning as I leave at 3:15 am so I'm hesitant to just feed more to the fish. Should I just feed more coral foods? I could squirt some of that in when I leave.

Thanks for any help

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How high is nitrate now?

Which Hanna

[2_zoa]

My Hanna is the low range. The HI-713, says the range is 0.00-2.50 ppm resolution of .01 ppm.

My salifert test shows between 25 and 50. its kinda in between. If I look from the side (the low range?) it's pretty close to the 100. My API says it's below the 5-10 range. Not zero

Glad you showed up randy. Thank you

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So I wouldn't assume you have no phosphate. The error on that device is +/- 0.04 ppm, so it could be 0.04 ppm even if it reads 0.00.

I'd personally look for another way to help the corals than adding phosphate. Feeding them more, such as with amino acids might help.

Phosphate isn't usually too low unless folks do something to make it low (like a lot of GFO).

[2_zoa]

Ok, I see what your saying about the margen of error. It was the poor color that made me wonder if it was actually accurate this time. Also the fact that the nitrates seem to be stuck if you will. The trates are pretty consistent.

Is there a coral food that you are partial too? We don't get too many insights into your tank.

I currently have Elos omega AA's and Seachems reef plus. I haven't put in any of the Elos but I do dose a ml of the reef plus when I think about it. Probably about once a week or every other week. It recommends twice a week IIRC.


I'm not sure if it matters but, the tank was started with completely base rock and sand. It was a sterile start cycled with ace brand ammonia. I used Marco rock.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't have much SPS, and I don't feed specifically for them,although I do use foods that have plenty of small bits (like Rods).

Upping the Reef Plus may be a good thing to try.

Putting some other foods on a time could also be good. I feed foods many times a day that way (arctipods and ROE). :)

[tmz]

What type of lighting? I've taken a few sps frags that were white from friend's tanks and put them in less intense light for a few weeks in mine and they colored up. I was pleasantly surprised since they were beyond pale.
It's hard to imagine a true phosphate deficiency with the fish waste and feeding absent a PO4 remover. 12ml of vinegar is a relatively low dose for a 60 gallon and shouldn't cause it.

BTW,I use a lot of fresh hatched atremia nauplii for seahorse rearing tanks. Everything loves them. The downside,IME is that aiptasia seem to love it more and multiply at an astounding rate with plump pinkish bellies full of them.. So , I'd watch out for that.
Are the parameters other than PO4 in acceptable ranges?

[2_zoa]

I don't have much SPS, and I don't feed specifically for them,although I do use foods that have plenty of small bits (like Rods).

Upping the Reef Plus may be a good thing to try.

Putting some other foods on a time could also be good. I feed foods many times a day that way (arctipods and ROE). :)


What timer do you use?

I don't have any SPS anymore. They all went pale and just before they went completely white, some of them had tissue recession at the base. I only had 4 pieces, 2 birds nest (1 pink and 1 green), 2 Acros (1 teal tip and a mystery frag). They were trial pieces just to see how they would do with my lack of time to devote to maintain super water for them.

[disc1]

Putting some other foods on a time could also be good. I feed foods many times a day that way (arctipods and ROE). :)

How do you deliver it to the tank? Do you keep it refrigerated?

[2_zoa]

What type of lighting? I've taken a few sps frags that were white from friend's tanks and put them in less intense light for a few weeks in mine and they colored up. I was pleasantly surprised since they were beyond pale.
It's hard to imagine a true phosphate deficiency with the fish waste and feeding absent a PO4 remover. 12ml of vinegar is a relatively low dose for a 60 gallon and shouldn't cause it.

BTW,I use a lot of fresh hatched atremia nauplii for seahorse rearing tanks. Everything loves them. The downside,IME is that aiptasia seem to love it more and multiply at an astounding rate with plump pinkish bellies full of them.. So , I'd watch out for that.
Are the parameters other than PO4 in acceptable ranges?

I have LED lighting. LED's have been on the tank from the beginning. At first I had two Kessil A-150's but, this last November I bought 2 160 watt Nova A4 fixtures. They're badged by one my LFS as they're built to their specs. Supposedly anyway?? When both channels are at 100% they put off a light that just about matches a 14K spot on. I have them turned down right now and have for a while since, my zoas at the bottom of the tank started to move/grow away from the light. That was when the lights were only at about 60% too. So I've turned them down some more. I'd have to check but I think they peak at about 45-50% now. They're also about 10 1/2" off the water. I wish I had a PAR meter. Maybe I should turn them up some?

Yes, all the other test's are in good standing. My ALK is higher (10-10.5) then I want it to be. I have pulled all but two of my remaining coral from the tank so I don't loose them. They're in a 2 gallon tank and have been, for the last month or so. The coral I left in the tank is a green star polyp and a pretty big toad stool. Maybe 6" across when fully expanded. The GSP purple matt isn't purple any more. It's almost white and the polyps are a light green color. As I type this I wonder if the leather is a problem? I don't run carbon.

I had a bad cyano break out so I moved the other coral at that time. They were pale in color then too. They're under a Kessil A-150 deep blue that's probably 24" off the water. In the time they've been in the 2 gallon they have come back in color and my duncan has sprouted 3 new heads. My frog spawn has opened up in the 2 gallon more then it ever has. I had no idea when it was in my 65 that it had grown two new heads. I bought it as a single. I now have three heads.

As for the cyano......it's gone. I fed the tank more food and I've only changed 6 gallons of water. I've watched it take care of itself.

I tested my PO4 again today. I did it this morning while the lights were off. Had been off almost 12 hours. Just for fun I wondered if the trace amounts of PO4 weren't testable due to something (cyano maybe that I can't see) using it during the photo period. It still came up zero.

[2_zoa]

How do you deliver it to the tank? Do you keep it refrigerated?

That's why I asked what feeder he use's.

[2_zoa]

So, today I did what I do. I shot from the hip and made change. I put whats left of my coral back into my tank. I also bought a purple gorg. I went back through and reprogrammed my lights back to the original program that I had in the beginning. Which hits a peak of 85% blues and 60% whites. I'll wait and see. Things might have been totally out of wack in the beginning which led to the cyano, which led to the demise of many of my coral. Which put me here....

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That's why I asked what feeder he use's.

I have an electronic timer driving a BRS 1.1 mL/min doser. The doser and the food sits in a styrofoam fish cooler (actually, doubled with a small one inside a big one), and there is also 2 gallon jugs of ice in it. I refill the food and the ice once every week or so (faster in summer). It drips straight through the bottom and into my sump for delivery to the main tank. It feeds about 10 times per day. :)

[2_zoa]

That sounds really cool Randy. No pun intended haha. Can you post a couple pics?

As to the phosphates. If I just wanted to experiment, could you give any advice towards a DIY phosphate recipe? I know you said you wouldn't do it but, I know really nothing about chemistry. So I have a hard time with names of chemicals and the such. I also have a tank with just a mangrove and a couple snails in it. I could dose that tank first.

[MorganAtlanta]

You can actually do the same thing with a wine bottle chiller. It's nice and compact and will keep food just above freezing. I ran one for a while with blendered oysters for food.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

For a phosphate additive, try Seachem Flourish Phosphorus:

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/FlourishPhosphorus.html

[2_zoa]

Well, It's my lucky day. I happen to have that product here at the house. I had no idea it could be used in a marine aquarium. I'll give a little more time before I dose any of it, as when I bought the gorgonian I also bought Reef nutrition's Roe, and their live phyto. So I'm gonna see if the glass gets dirty more quickly. That should be some kind of an indicator that there is nutrients in the water. Of course I will test too.

Thank you Randy and others that chimed in. Stay dry. Prost :beer:

Just for fun, here is the empty tank in question.
http://i385.photobucket.com/albums/oo300/pentair/SW%20aquarium/P1010119.jpg (http://s385.photobucket.com/user/pentair/media/SW%20aquarium/P1010119.jpg.html)


Edit: I got lucky and got all 7 fish in that shot. Haha

[droog]

Interesting thread. I've been having trouble keeping some LPS (torch coral and goniopora) perhaps related to lack of phosphate. I had never thought of using a dosing pump to add coral foods but will look into that now. Usually posts on here are dedicated to the removal of phosphate...

I just read RHF's article on sources of Phosphate and fund it to be very useful and thought-proving. I was one of the frozen-food-rinsers until reading that article. Thanks Randy!

While on this subject, I'm dosing the RedSea No3PO4-X or "nopox" additive, which is billed as biological phosphate and nitrate management (presumably bacteria). Any opinions on this product one way or another?

-droog

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Let us know what happens with the phosphate addition!

While on this subject, I'm dosing the RedSea No3PO4-X or "nopox" additive, which is billed as biological phosphate and nitrate management (presumably bacteria). Any opinions on this product one way or another?

It is a carbon dosing system, like vinegar or vodka but we don't know exactly what is in it. I don't know of a reason to think it is better than those other forms. I use vinegar.

[tmz]

Several friends of mine use the NO3PO4-X with fairly good results in managing PO4 and NO3 levels at least over the last 6 months or so. I don't know what's in it but it smells like vinegar and ethanol/methanol may have some sugar too. It's effects mirror ethanol and/or vinegar dosing in my view. Personally, vodka and vinegar have worked very well for me for abut 5.5 years. I like knowing what I'm adding to the aqauriums.

[reefwars]

I have LED lighting. LED's have been on the tank from the beginning. At first I had two Kessil A-150's but, this last November I bought 2 160 watt Nova A4 fixtures. They're badged by one my LFS as they're built to their specs. Supposedly anyway?? When both channels are at 100% they put off a light that just about matches a 14K spot on. I have them turned down right now and have for a while since, my zoas at the bottom of the tank started to move/grow away from the light. That was when the lights were only at about 60% too. So I've turned them down some more. I'd have to check but I think they peak at about 45-50% now. They're also about 10 1/2" off the water. I wish I had a PAR meter. Maybe I should turn them up some?

Yes, all the other test's are in good standing. My ALK is higher (10-10.5) then I want it to be. I have pulled all but two of my remaining coral from the tank so I don't loose them. They're in a 2 gallon tank and have been, for the last month or so. The coral I left in the tank is a green star polyp and a pretty big toad stool. Maybe 6" across when fully expanded. The GSP purple matt isn't purple any more. It's almost white and the polyps are a light green color. As I type this I wonder if the leather is a problem? I don't run carbon.

I had a bad cyano break out so I moved the other coral at that time. They were pale in color then too. They're under a Kessil A-150 deep blue that's probably 24" off the water. In the time they've been in the 2 gallon they have come back in color and my duncan has sprouted 3 new heads. My frog spawn has opened up in the 2 gallon more then it ever has. I had no idea when it was in my 65 that it had grown two new heads. I bought it as a single. I now have three heads.

As for the cyano......it's gone. I fed the tank more food and I've only changed 6 gallons of water. I've watched it take care of itself.

I tested my PO4 again today. I did it this morning while the lights were off. Had been off almost 12 hours. Just for fun I wondered if the trace amounts of PO4 weren't testable due to something (cyano maybe that I can't see) using it during the photo period. It still came up zero.


how deep is the tank ?

ime you wont kill a coral in lower light for a couple of weeks but can under leds driven to high, im not familiar with the nova fixtures but if water chemistry is good , then lighting is the other part that needs attention.

i would lower the lights down to 20-30% for 2 weeks and see what reactions your corals have.

[2_zoa]

Ok, I tested my phosphate tonight and it still came up zero. So I dosed the tank with 1.6ml of Sea Chem phosphate. The same stuff Randy linked to. I let it mix for a while and tested again. Still zero. So I dosed the tank again so now, I've got a double dose according to the directions on the bottle. Let that mix in for 20-25 mins and then tested again. Still zero.

My regent powder is new, I just ordered and received it just a couple weeks ago. The exp date is 05/16.

The instructions say to use an equation to get the desired rise from a specific dose. Their example is to raise a 20 gallon tank by .1 the equation would look like this

.8*20*.1=1.6ml of product. So I did this for my tank. I've always dosed it for 50 gallons water volume. Also given the error of the hanna checker, I chose to hit .04 This way if I was or have been getting a reading based on the accuracy of my meter, this should be a safe dose to start with.

.8*50*.04=1.6ml of product.

Where is the phosphate going? I have dosed my tank with Iron and I don't really have anything that uses iron. I thought it might help the cyano issue I encountered. I've read that iron will bind phosphate. Is it possible that there is a build up of iron in my tank and its binding the phosphate?
How fast does iron bind phosphate?
Does it really bind phosphate?
I'm trying to learn how phosphate affects my tank. I also want to learn how to deal with it rather then just starving my fish or doing mass water changes. Things like that. Sorry for the long post and rambling, a lot going through my mind right now.

[kaskiles]

Make a small clean batch of new salt water with IO or something with no organic additives. Measure PO4 on it. Add the Sea Chem phosphate to it as per dosing instructions and then measure PO4 on it again.

When dosing directly into the living system, the PO4 may be quickly converted to a form that the test kit cannot measure...

[2_zoa]

Make a small clean batch of new salt water with IO or something with no organic additives. Measure PO4 on it. Add the Sea Chem phosphate to it as per dosing instructions and then measure PO4 on it again.

When dosing directly into the living system, the PO4 may be quickly converted to a form that the test kit cannot measure...

Thank you for your response.

I just finished doing a similar test. I dosed my 2 gallon tank. I first tested and it came back zero. Did the math, dosed it with .2 ml which should have brought it up to a value of .12 and the second test came back at .10.

So, it would appear their dosing is pretty much spot on and there is actually phosphate in the bottle.:D Maybe I should dose some iron and test again???

Part of my quest then is squished. I'll never be able to lower my nitrates through any other means then mechanical filtration or water changes. Like others dose nitrates I was partly hoping to do the same in reverse. My nitrates today were at 25. Not bad but not where I want them. Over time I do expect my tank to start giving off phosphate. Then again it may never....

[2_zoa]

So, for fun I dosed the 2 gallon with iron. 20 mins later I did another test. It came up zero. So.......where did the phosphate go?:uhoh3:

Did the iron bind the phosphate?
Did the iron mask the phosphate, making it un-testable?
Did the tank itself make the phosphate un-testable?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe the phosphate is being taken up. I doubt you added enough iron to bind the phosphate.

If you are into experimenting, keep dosing phosphate over time and monitor nitrate. :)

[kaskiles]

What are you using to dose Iron, is there an organic mixed in with it to stabilize? Do you have any life in your 2 gallon tank, or is it sterile?

[2_zoa]

Maybe the phosphate is being taken up. I doubt you added enough iron to bind the phosphate.

If you are into experimenting, keep dosing phosphate over time and monitor nitrate. :)

Well.......that depends on how much iron would be needed. Haha. I've dosed based on a wreck less interpretation that "the dose of iron doesn't really matter all that much". In the case of the 2 gallon I matched the dose of phosphate with the iron. So .2 ml of iron was dosed. IIRC your DIY iron is at a rate of .25-1.25 ml per 50 gallons? That's right there with the phosphate dose of 1.6 ml in the beginning. I see a Hanna iron checker in my future. I also had a thought this morning......isn't iron dosing basically the same thing as GFO in a liquid form?

I am up for a continued experiment. As I also wondered if the iron levels were causing it to be absorbed, how much phosphate would I need before I start to see any measurable amounts? I figured I'd hold off on adding anymore till this evening after I test for nitrates. I was hoping I could use the nitrates as a metric since the Hanna isn't registering anything. I tested nitrates yesterday before I started all this and they were at 25. I'm hoping that will tell me if the phosphates are just being masked or if they're not available for uptake anymore, right?

What are you using to dose Iron, is there an organic mixed in with it to stabilize? Do you have any life in your 2 gallon tank, or is it sterile?

I'm dosing Randy's DIY iron supplement using Fergon iron tablets. No there isn't any stabilizers in the solution. One tablet to 100 ml of RODI.

The 2 gallon has a small toadstool leather and a mangrove tree, couple snails and struggling/dying Favia frag. I put all my other coral back into my 65 a couple days ago.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

.isn't iron dosing basically the same thing as GFO in a liquid form?

Similar, but not exactly the same. In any case, if the goal is to add phosphate. I'd stop adding so much iron. :D

[2_zoa]

.isn't iron dosing basically the same thing as GFO in a liquid form?

Similar, but not exactly the same. In any case, if the goal is to add phosphate. I'd stop adding so much iron. :D


Haha, Its been a while since I dosed my 65 with any iron.

I'm doing the tests and dosing now. I'll post results in a little bit.

[2_zoa]

Alright,

I tested the nitrates, they're still at 25. I tested PO4 and it was also 0. So I jumped all in and did a double dose again. I waited 30 mins. The second PO4 test reveled a reading of .03 Yahoo!! I'm on top.

Hopefully my tank doesn't melt now.:lmao:


Edit;
So Randy. Does the iron render phosphate unavailable? Or just not testable?
Is iron like GFO (absorbed or bound), you just don't have a physical vehicle to remove said phosphate?
This (iron dosing) seems a whole lot more easy and less equipment then having GFO and a reactor with a pump. Iron dosing doesn't clog, break, leak, or need to be changed and cleaned.
In your opinion, is this a viable way to control phosphate?
Is whatever that is created (iron & phosphate) harmful to the tank?

To be fair, I read about Iron and phosphates in GlennF thread. That's where I got the question about maybe having an elevated level of iron in my tank, using up the phosphate that I dosed. GlennF is the brain that brought this to RC/our/my attention.(As far as I know) I'm trying to understand this experiment....though I'll never fully understand.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Does the iron render phosphate unavailable? Or just not testable?

If it does anything, it will precipitate as iron phosphate or iron oxide with some phosphate on it. What happens to that is unclear, but it should settle out somewhere or be partly skimmed. It won't, as far as I know, mess with phosphate testing.

[2_zoa]

Does the iron render phosphate unavailable? Or just not testable?

If it does anything, it will precipitate as iron phosphate or iron oxide with some phosphate on it. What happens to that is unclear, but it should settle out somewhere or be partly skimmed. It won't, as far as I know, mess with phosphate testing.


So, if I take the time to mix a gallon or two of ASW, test it, dose it with phosphate too some testable level for a starting point. Then add small amounts of iron and testing for phosphate in between iron additions. The phosphate reading shouldn't change as far as you know, right?

IF, it does change the phosphate value. Then I could potentially get measurement for how much iron to add to reduce phosphate by x-amount. Right?

I know none of this is even close to scientific. Yet it seems like some kind of windage for me to try and keep my tank in balance using this method?

[2_zoa]

I ordered myself a new Hanna checker for iron Thursday night. It arrived today. So, I tested my Iron. It came up zero?:hmm4: So I placed one drop of my Iron supplement into the cuvett and redid the test. It came up .36ppm.

The nitrate test came up as usual at 25ppm
The phosphate came up as usual at 0ppm

I'm a little confused?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe the tank is using the phosphate, or the test isn't working.

You should have asked before buying the iron checker. One cannot detect iron in most reef tanks with a kit or checker. The levels are far too low (and should be). Something 0.000006 ppm is present in surface NSW.

[2_zoa]

Maybe the tank is using the phosphate, or the test isn't working.

You should have asked before buying the iron checker. One cannot detect iron in most reef tanks with a kit or checker. The levels are far too low (and should be). Something 0.000006 ppm is present in surface NSW.


Yea............After I posted, I did a quick search and found one of your articles. I think it was your earlier articles as it only had the first iron recipe in it. How sad is it that I can't recall the title right now? Lol. Too many beers.:celeb3: It stated a very similar value for iron in it. My first thought was DDHHOOO:worried: I did mention the Hanna checker earlier but, no matter.


It's pretty cool my tank is consuming phosphates right now. I'll just keep an eye on them and adjust accordingly. I'm sure at some point it will flip on me, and I'll be adding nitrates to bring down the phosphates. Maybe not, we shall see. I'm just gonna roll with it.

Thank you for all you help Randy and others.
Stay dry all and happy reefing.:beer:

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sorry, I should have spoken up when you first mentioned it.

Good luck. :)

[2_zoa]

Sorry, I should have spoken up when you first mentioned it.

Good luck. :)


Hey, no worries Randy.

I did play a little bit tonight. I dosed 10ml of your DIY Iron to 2 gallons of week old ASW and got a reading of .36ppm. I thought that was fun. Gotta use the meter for something. LOL.

Take care.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:lol:

Happy Reefing. :)

[Jay Ellul]

hey mate

im having similar testing as you for a few months now. zero p04 on hanna and a small amount of nitrates. usually around 2ppm, kept low with weekly 20% water change.

How is the experiment progressing? The brightwells product is hard to come by here but both Seachem Flourish nitrate and phosphate are easily attainable :)


Randy - What would your recommended starting dose in 30gallons considering my N is not too high anyway? my goal is to get close to ULN but seems im phosphate limited..

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hard to say, but I think dosing 0.02 - 0.03 ppm seems like a good start. Then wait a few days. :)

[2_zoa]

hey mate

im having similar testing as you for a few months now. zero p04 on hanna and a small amount of nitrates. usually around 2ppm, kept low with weekly 20% water change.

How is the experiment progressing? The brightwells product is hard to come by here but both Seachem Flourish nitrate and phosphate are easily attainable :)


Randy - What would your recommended starting dose in 30gallons considering my N is not too high anyway? my goal is to get close to ULN but seems im phosphate limited..


Sorry, A couple days late.

I'm using the Sea Chem phosphate. I, unlike you. Don't do any "real" water changes. I have never liked changing out water on my tanks. When, I do a water change on this 65. It's only 2 gallons. I think/feel that's plenty of water for me to get out any detritus out of my tank. I can siphon half my sand bed with 2 gallons so.... I know I could do water changes and get my nitrates down but, I'd rather find the issue and bring it into balance if I can. That's why I'm willing to dose phosphate. I'm not educated by any means but, I'm not afraid to dive in. Even it it costs me more in the end. I will have learned something in the end. I have another home for my corals and fish if I mess up to badly. 4 spare tanks kicking around :hmm4:. They will be safe.

I was only able to obtain a phosphate reading that one time. After I couldn't get a reading again, which was two more tests. I stopped dosing the phosphate. At the same time, my artemia feeding station built up a bunch of nasty. A couple days after adding the phosphate I noticed a difference in the tank. The glass needed to be cleaned every day. Right before I removed the rotting Artemia/feeding station. The glass could be cleaned twice a day.

Now, the tank is pretty much back to where it was when I started this thread. I haven't cleaned my glass in the last three days now. My coral shows promise. The frog spawn has the best color I've seen it have. The zoas are still pale. My duncan is upset along with the gorg, although I've noticed my angle nipping pretty hard at the gorg lately. He may have to be relocated.

I'm gonna give it a little longer and then I believe I'm going to start dosing the phosphate again. Now that the pile of dead artemia is gone. Boy howdy did that thing STINK when I pulled it out of the tank!!!!

[VABeachMike]

I think I might be in a similar situation where I'm possibly phosphate limited.

If you're interested in the story, here's the thread I started: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=22836775#post22836775 Mr. Holmes-Farley sent me here. :)

I was wondering if a better approach would be to slowly ramp up the phosphate dosing, similar to the way you ramp up vodka dosing. Start with a tiny amount, but instead of monitoring phosphate levels, watch your nitrates. A phosphate reading at all may imply overfeeding the microbes we're trying to culture... give them just enough to process the nitrates.

Just a thought, no experience at all. :crazy1: This is probably how we're going to tackle it once ready.

Thanks for sharing your experience!

VBMike