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Illhaveanother
05/28/2014, 05:43 PM
This is just my opinion and I wanted to get some feedback.

keep in mind the editing for this paper is okay at best so be kind.

and if your angryabout this don't come insulting me or hunting me down:uzi:


My opinions on the saltwater fish trade the good and the bad


First of all let me say Iím not against keeping saltwater aquariums at all. I have my own aquariums and think it is the best hobby in the world, if you even think it should be considered that. Let me say that I am more on the side of conservation and cultivation more than I am interested in aquariums because itís just something to do. During the following I would like to discuss my feelings on the fish trade ,and like the title states the good and the bad. I also want to express how we can make it better and some innovative new ideas I have to help the aquarium trade and the oceans succeed in the long run .

Something that doesnít add up to me is that people say that by helping support the aquarium trade you will help poor Indonesian and Philippian fisherman survive and that without this practice they would die ,and that this is good for the environment because it is done sustainably. Hereís the part that doesnít add up ,these people are poor and live in countryís were law enforcement is poor as well they get paid very ,very little even for the most expensive, flashy fish you may see in local fish stores. So if youíre a poor person who can make more and more money by catching more and more fish why not do it? Just think about that and try to put yourself in there shoes for a minute. I believe many of them are doing just what I stated before , taking more than they should and itís not helping them or the oceans near them any at all. What also must be stated is that these fish undergo a living hell being shipped from one facility to another and treated for parasites with chemicals that end up hurting them more than helping them in the long run. It is pure laziness on the fish wholesalers because if they just took a little more time and used fresh water soaking methods to kill the saltwater parasites all the problems would be solved ,but to many of them are worried about profit and want the fish in and out right away.I know this for a fact because I have a store near me with very nice people but a very bad retailer , I try to get them to switch but this company saves them the most money, half the time the fish they get are in bad condition mostly due to poor handling , but they keep coming back because this company just replaces dead fish no problem and keeps taking more and more and more out of the oceans because more and more of there fish die . I even saw a whole batch of mimic tangs come in and they all had acid burns scaring there scales . I think the only one that survived in the long run was the one the put in there display tank and even he is still suffering months later from these burns. This is why I feel that especially, for people on the eastern side of the united states that they should re - consider getting pacific fish as a first choice because the journey is so long for the poor creatures that most donít survive and by supporting an order of these fish coming all the way across the world , and then most holding facilityís in California your probably going to end up with mostly dead fish or some type of mortality .
So complaining about all these problems isnít going to solve anything so here are some solutions I have though up. What I think we should do is enforce laws that bring fish stores but most importantly wholesale facilityís up to par. There are to many parasite riddled wholesale facilities in the united states and to many with poor water quality . we need to support a program to help make these facilities better and to make sure they are checked up on frequently to make sure they are abiding by the law. I also believe we should ,especially for more sensitive or rarer fish give facilities a required waiting period of 5 days or so to hold the fish before they ship it out to make sure it settles down enough. A lot of the fish deaths arenít from just stress there from continued non ending stress that torments the fish for many a day until it is damaged in one way or another or dead. Something I also would like to mention is that we should support the tropical Atlantic trade more. Especially those of us on the eastern side of the united states. My theory is that if we help plant these coral reefs and help make these Caribbean habitats healthy again through groups like CRF (the coral restoration foundation)that we will have better habitats and more fish .Therefore more fish to help our oceans and supply our trade. I believe that if we truly are dedicated hobbyist that love the fish and corals that we should give back to the environments they come from. This could be personal donations or businesses setting apart some of there profit to give back to what gives to them , the ocean. Personally what I would like to do is start a non profit or low profit business that focuses on raising captive bred corals and fish as well as other invertebrates and selling them to hobbyist . once they were sold during the end of the year use 40 to 50 % of the profits to help replant coral reefs or fund marine research projects .Even donating to CRF as earlier mentioned would be a huge help. This way we could help the ocean by providing hobbyist with something captive bred therefore there would be zero impact on wild stock ,giving them a product they want all while helping a cause they love. The rest of the money could go towards keeping the coral facilityís up to par and to fund workers pay. Something else I would like to mention is that I think we should also try to help get more breeding facilityís of big angelfish and other fishes as well as massive community Mariculture farms or plantations for corals setup. This way more people could sustainably help the trade while earning fair wages in order to survive. This could also lessen the number of collectors of indo pacific fishes because they wouldnít absolutely need the money to survive because they would be working all day at the coral farms making money. The way I would ideally like to see it ,is to have a number of pacific fish imports drop and more pacific coral imports rise. I would like to see big plantation types of communities be setup so that there are good jobs for multiple community members. I would like to see them collect some corals from the wild, and consistently collect from the wild but just not as many different things . primary collection should be for new interesting and or rare species of corals that have not reached much popularity or havenít become common enough yet in the trade. Then I would like to see them take those corals and grow them out , frag and keep some and sell others off to the trade . care should be taken not to frag to small of pieces of coral off .Then offer Americans and other countries a wider assortment of maricultured corals to come by. These large to medium sized corals would already have a head start and then could be grow out and captive fragged by us reef keepers . A bunch of happiness by reef keepers all while doing good for thee environment with little impact on those fragile reef environments would be the desired result. Its important to realize that not all the pacific is bad , places like Hawaii and Fiji and some of the other smaller pacific islands have pretty fair restrictions but trouble comes in when buying from large countries with poor law enforcement or sense of conservation. Many of the small island have little communityís that truly care about there resources while other larger island nations have people that tend to care more about profit more than anything. Many of these small island have fishes that only live at that island and no other like the yellow tang of Hawaii and the gold flake angelfish of Christmas island . Care is to be taken when buying these species because if you happen to kill them off thereís greater environmental impact because there living range isnít as great there for thereís not as many as them as say something like a coral beauty or sailfin tang which are spread all over the pacific. Itís important to make smart informed and environmentally conscious decisions as a reef keeper. Do plenty of research, read plenty of books and know your fish by heart before buying. Itís always good to do a quick online check on your phone or tablet before you make a final purchase.there is also huge money that could be made in setting up agrocrete live rock farms in communityís like Fiji and the Philippines to the extent it is almost like a plantation.

Now I have talked enough constructively about the saltwater aquarium trade let me talk about some of its good things. Fish tanks in general have been know to stop things like altimers and depression for those who consistently look at them . But in general itís just the aspect of cultivation that I like , being able to grow out a coral and sell it to get another and another and keep the process going is a fun and rewarding experience. Not to mention that these creatures are for the most part stunningly beautiful . I have also always liked collecting things whether it has been Pokťmon cards, frogs and toads ,or my current collection interest corals thereís always been something about having an interesting collection of unique and colorful creatures that I have always been attracted to. Not to mention all the other things you can collected to make your collection of other things even better looking ,like certain equipment , special rocks , fish and other invertebrates it truly is a fun ,healthy and addictive hobby.one of the reasons this hobby becomes such a good distraction away from normal life is that thereís so much involved in it , different sciences ,technical skills ,artistic imagination etc. It makes up a whole different world of extremely complex but yet beautifully simple and colorful living creatures. As my paper comes to a close I would like to mention that I believe the aquarium trade is our way into helping the oceans survive not killing them off. We just have to do it the right way through support the hobby by buying as much captive bred and truly sustainably harvested livestock as possible. After all if we didnít keep aquariums most of us reef keepers wouldnít care about the oceans because we wouldnít recognize it beauty and importance. If not for this hobby I wouldnít have got into loving the ocean at all and would have no passion in my life to stay alive. without this hobby a lot of things would be different and thatís why itís foolish to even call it a hobby because itís so much more. As we move forward through time I hope we used the information that myself and others have provided to make the hobby work for good and not for evil . And to quote a famous fish youtuber whome I admire Ė until later times, keeping enjoying the ULTIMATE hobby .



We are the hobby ,we make the hobby

If you have not read my previous paper Ė the aquarium trade the good and the bad , then you may not fully understand this paper. In This particular paper I will be going into more detail about topics I wrote in the previous article. First off I would like to discuss what the name of the article hints to. We truly do as Reefers , Breeders , Fishkeepers, Cultivationist, or just simple saltwater aquarium owners interested in the logistics of the hobby we all make it up and individually come together to form one big community . while some of are fish values are different then others I believe we can all agree we at some time felt some fascination or love for the creatures, and most likely still do unless you are only in it for the money. My whole point Iím trying to get at is that the fish community can be looked upon as good or evil we make the hobby up and thus should be responsible for helping advance it in the correct direction. The following will be indepth ways to help the hobby advance and how.
First let me express that I believe it is the aquarium communityís responsibility to help make there own trade better. What I hate to see are these people who criticize others who may want to set special collection limits to protect certain species or full grown species of tropical marine organisms to protect the trade and the earth , and life as we know it. these people get all upset because they believe these organizations are hurting our trade , our business and there lifeís and that these groups are trying to hurt us . when there trying to help preserve it to keep our trade alive in the long run. itís a different story with these organizations that want to shut the trade down all together, there just plain stupid.
Now lets talk about mariculture ,you know the farming of corals on metal grids just off shore of the island communityís mainly around the indo pacific region. People ask how would we get these plans of yours into action? So if we want to stop taking so much and start giving back to help our own cause supporting mariculture plantation efforts would be a great first start. We could possibly help setup a fund that sends aquaculturistís , and marine biologist over to places like Indonesia and the Philippines and teach the natives how to farm ,and inform them a little more about the whole science around the ocean eco systems around them. This fund could also help supply materials to start out with over seas such as coral mounts ,glue and wracks . Once these people learned the mariculture techniques themselves they could each start there own plot in the ocean and grow coral crops out to sell to the trade. Or you could help support the start of some type of business that goes along and uses patches of the ocean to farm these things and would hire local people to help check and tend the farms. Same goes for live rock farming . setup patches of agrocrete rocks in the ocean and let them cook and then harvest them. I know that these things exist already I just want to make them more prevalent. I believe these areas should also have executive supervisors check on them a couple times a year to make sure things are going smoothly.

It would also be a great help to the Indonesian people if we could get them to have a better understanding of global trade and negotiation so they will be better of and wont keep selling there products off at such dirt cheap prices anymore. They need to realize how valuable there products truly are. I donít like to get to deep into nations personal people issues though I like to mainly stick to the wildlife part of things but I felt like even though this point isnít of great concern to me at this moment that it at least be mentioned.

As far as the whole ordeal in the part of the holding of fishes in wholesale facilities I believe it is up to us to make sure government gets laws changed so that fish are treated as fairly as any other animal. If you truly love these animals entirely and not just the ones you or your immediate friends or family may have youíll really care about getting fish and other aquatic organisms more wrights. Youíll help fund or support causes that will keep stricter holding codes in check to make sure fish are being kept and transported correctly. The trade isnít terrible but it isnít perfect either and I believe we need to work through these steps to help the trade get better. This is not to say all these facilityís are bad ,its to get the bad ones to be forced to become like the good ones already are.

As an overall summary I would like to say that I wouldnít mind if these plans are constructively criticized or agreed with. But I wouldnít be disappointed to see any bashing . We can all learn more through each others view points. Overall I believe that we should try to make our trade better by ourselves. Supporting as much captive grown ,bred or maricultured livestock as possible is always good. I think that many hobbyist want to help make the trade better but just donít know how to . this is why I would like to see some more people in the saltwater hobby setup and create charityís that really help make a difference and were the money really goes to that cause. Maybe a site that shows video progress and articles of there achievements on there websites all in thanks of the donations they received. I have discussed other ways of achieving good charity types of ideas in my other paper.I wouldnít mind if we get some government assistance but I would like to see the saltwater aquarium community do most the work themselves . like I have said before we can make this better but we just have to get a good plan down like I believe mine is , get our heads together and get organized as a community and DO IT! As a reader really take some time and think about the points made and compare and contrast them with yours and even if you think my ideaís are terrible keep an open mind and try to see how one might see how they would work and remember constructive criticism is wanted ,bashing is not. My final words will be , Just remember to keep on fragging.

dukduk
05/28/2014, 05:50 PM
Altimer's? I think I have that.

Illhaveanother
05/28/2014, 09:11 PM
Altimers is no laughing matter.

Fishfirst
05/29/2014, 08:36 AM
This is just my opinion and I wanted to get some feedback.

keep in mind the editing for this paper is okay at best so be kind.

and if your angryabout this don't come insulting me or hunting me down:uzi:


My opinions on the saltwater fish trade the good and the bad


First of all let me say Iím not against keeping saltwater aquariums at all. I have my own aquariums and think it is the best hobby in the world, if you even think it should be considered that. Let me say that I am more on the side of conservation and cultivation more than I am interested in aquariums because itís just something to do. During the following I would like to discuss my feelings on the fish trade ,and like the title states the good and the bad. I also want to express how we can make it better and some innovative new ideas I have to help the aquarium trade and the oceans succeed in the long run .

Something that doesnít add up to me is that people say that by helping support the aquarium trade you will help poor Indonesian and Philippian fisherman survive and that without this practice they would die ,and that this is good for the environment because it is done sustainably. Hereís the part that doesnít add up ,these people are poor and live in countryís were law enforcement is poor as well they get paid very ,very little even for the most expensive, flashy fish you may see in local fish stores. So if youíre a poor person who can make more and more money by catching more and more fish why not do it? Indeed, that is why cyanide is still used in these areasJust think about that and try to put yourself in there shoes for a minute. I believe many of them are doing just what I stated before , taking more than they should and itís not helping them or the oceans near them any at all. What also must be stated is that these fish undergo a living hell being shipped from one facility to another and treated for parasites with chemicals that end up hurting them more than helping them in the long run.debatable It is pure laziness on the fish wholesalers because if they just took a little more time and used fresh water soaking methods to kill the saltwater parasites all the problems would be solved completely untrue, many saltwater parasites are not affected by hypo or freshwater dips ,but to many of them are worried about profit exactly, if the /latter worked on all parasites some wholesalers would use these methods and want the fish in and out right away.I know this for a fact because I have a store near me with very nice people but a very bad retailer , I try to get them to switch but this company saves them the most money, half the time the fish they get are in bad condition mostly due to poor handling , but they keep coming back because this company just replaces dead fish no problem and keeps taking more and more and more out of the oceans because more and more of there fish die .sounds like an ethics problem for these "very nice people" at the LFS... sounds like they really don't care either I even saw a whole batch of mimic tangs come in and they all had acid burns scaring there scales . I think the only one that survived in the long run was the one the put in there display tank and even he is still suffering months later from these burns. This is why I feel that especially, for people on the eastern side of the united states that they should re - consider getting pacific fish as a first choice because the journey is so long for the poor creatures that most donít survive and by supporting an order of these fish coming all the way across the world , and then most holding facilityís in California your probably going to end up with mostly dead fish or some type of mortality . also untrue
So complaining about all these problems isnít going to solve anything so here are some solutions I have though up. What I think we should do is enforce laws that bring fish stores but most importantly wholesale facilityís up to par. There are to many parasite riddled wholesale facilities in the united states and to many with poor water quality . we need to support a program to help make these facilities better and to make sure they are checked up on frequently to make sure they are abiding by the law. I also believe we should ,especially for more sensitive or rarer fish give facilities a required waiting period of 5 days or so to hold the fish before they ship it out to make sure it settles down enough. A lot of the fish deaths arenít from just stress there from continued non ending stress that torments the fish for many a day until it is damaged in one way or another or dead. Something I also would like to mention is that we should support the tropical Atlantic trade more. some of the greatest offenders (wholesale/collectors) of what you described come from this region Especially those of us on the eastern side of the united states. My theory is that if we help plant these coral reefs and help make these Caribbean habitats healthy again through groups like CRF (the coral restoration foundation)that we will have better habitats and more fish .Therefore more fish to help our oceans and supply our trade. I believe that if we truly are dedicated hobbyist that love the fish and corals that we should give back to the environments they come from. This could be personal donations or businesses setting apart some of there profit to give back to what gives to them , the ocean. Personally what I would like to do is start a non profit or low profit business that focuses on raising captive bred corals and fish as well as other invertebrates and selling them to hobbyist so many aquaculture places now days its crazy . once they were sold during the end of the year use 40 to 50 % of the profits to help replant coral reefs or fund marine research projects .Even donating to CRF as earlier mentioned would be a huge help. This way we could help the ocean by providing hobbyist with something captive bred therefore there would be zero impact on wild stock a physical impossibility, by us merely existing we have impact on reefs world wide, also where do you get the broodstock? ,giving them a product they want all while helping a cause they love. The rest of the money could go towards keeping the coral facilityís up to par and to fund workers pay. Something else I would like to mention is that I think we should also try to help get more breeding facilityís of big angelfish and other fishes as well as massive community Mariculture farms or plantations for corals setup. This way more people could sustainably help the trade while earning fair wages in order to survive. This could also lessen the number of collectors of indo pacific fishes because they wouldnít absolutely need the money to survive because they would be working all day at the coral farms making money.mariculture facilities are increasing already The way I would ideally like to see it ,is to have a number of pacific fish imports drop and more pacific coral imports rise. I would like to see big plantation types of communities be setup so that there are good jobs for multiple community members. I would like to see them collect some corals from the wild, and consistently collect from the wild but just not as many different things . primary collection should be for new interesting and or rare species of corals that have not reached much popularity or havenít become common enough yet in the trade. Then I would like to see them take those corals and grow them out , frag and keep some and sell others off to the trade . care should be taken not to frag to small of pieces of coral off .Then offer Americans and other countries a wider assortment of maricultured corals to come by. These large to medium sized corals would already have a head start and then could be grow out and captive fragged by us reef keepers . A bunch of happiness by reef keepers all while doing good for thee environment with little impact on those fragile reef environments would be the desired result. Its important to realize that not all the pacific is bad , places like Hawaii and Fiji and some of the other smaller pacific islands have pretty fair restrictions but trouble comes in when buying from large countries with poor law enforcement or sense of conservation. Many of the small island have little communityís that truly care about there resources while other larger island nations have people that tend to care more about profit more than anything. Many of these small island have fishes that only live at that island and no other like the yellow tang of Hawaii not an endemic and the gold flake angelfish of Christmas island . Care is to be taken when buying these species because if you happen to kill them off thereís greater environmental impact because there living range isnít as great there for thereís not as many as them as say something like a coral beauty or sailfin tang which are spread all over the pacific. Itís important to make smart informed and environmentally conscious decisions as a reef keeper. Do plenty of research, read plenty of books and know your fish by heart before buying. Itís always good to do a quick online check on your phone or tablet before you make a final purchase.there is also huge money that could be made in setting up agrocrete live rock farms in communityís like Fiji and the Philippines to the extent it is almost like a plantation.

Now I have talked enough constructively about the saltwater aquarium trade let me talk about some of its good things. Fish tanks in general have been know to stop things like altimers and depression for those who consistently look at them . But in general itís just the aspect of cultivation that I like , being able to grow out a coral and sell it to get another and another and keep the process going is a fun and rewarding experience. Not to mention that these creatures are for the most part stunningly beautiful . I have also always liked collecting things whether it has been Pokťmon cards, frogs and toads ,or my current collection interest corals thereís always been something about having an interesting collection of unique and colorful creatures that I have always been attracted to. Not to mention all the other things you can collected to make your collection of other things even better looking ,like certain equipment , special rocks , fish and other invertebrates it truly is a fun ,healthy and addictive hobby.one of the reasons this hobby becomes such a good distraction away from normal life is that thereís so much involved in it , different sciences ,technical skills ,artistic imagination etc. It makes up a whole different world of extremely complex but yet beautifully simple and colorful living creatures. As my paper comes to a close I would like to mention that I believe the aquarium trade is our way into helping the oceans survive not killing them off. We just have to do it the right way through support the hobby by buying as much captive bred and truly sustainably harvested livestock as possible. After all if we didnít keep aquariums most of us reef keepers wouldnít care about the oceans because we wouldnít recognize it beauty and importance. If not for this hobby I wouldnít have got into loving the ocean at all and would have no passion in my life to stay alive. without this hobby a lot of things would be different and thatís why itís foolish to even call it a hobby because itís so much more. As we move forward through time I hope we used the information that myself and others have provided to make the hobby work for good and not for evil . And to quote a famous fish youtuber whome I admire Ė until later times, keeping enjoying the ULTIMATE hobby .



We are the hobby ,we make the hobby

If you have not read my previous paper Ė the aquarium trade the good and the bad , then you may not fully understand this paper. In This particular paper I will be going into more detail about topics I wrote in the previous article. First off I would like to discuss what the name of the article hints to. We truly do as Reefers , Breeders , Fishkeepers, Cultivationist, or just simple saltwater aquarium owners interested in the logistics of the hobby we all make it up and individually come together to form one big community . while some of are fish values are different then others I believe we can all agree we at some time felt some fascination or love for the creatures, and most likely still do unless you are only in it for the money. My whole point Iím trying to get at is that the fish community can be looked upon as good or evil we make the hobby up and thus should be responsible for helping advance it in the correct direction. The following will be indepth ways to help the hobby advance and how.
First let me express that I believe it is the aquarium communityís responsibility to help make there own trade better.then why suggest government regulation? Free market principles should help, self regulation is what is needed here... not purchasing from retailers who buy from poor wholesalers would be a start. What I hate to see are these people who criticize others who may want to set special collection limits to protect certain species or full grown species of tropical marine organisms to protect the trade and the earth , and life as we know it. these people get all upset because they believe these organizations are hurting our trade , our business and there lifeís and that these groups are trying to hurt us . when there trying to help preserve it to keep our trade alive in the long run. itís a different story with these organizations that want to shut the trade down all together, there just plain stupid. that is the end goal of far to many of these "special" regulation people... in the end, most argue that these studies that these regulations are based upon are data deficient (which is likely)
Now lets talk about mariculture ,you know the farming of corals on metal grids just off shore of the island communityís mainly around the indo pacific region. People ask how would we get these plans of yours into action? So if we want to stop taking so much and start giving back to help our own cause supporting mariculture plantation efforts would be a great first start. We could possibly help setup a fund that sends aquaculturistís , and marine biologist over to places like Indonesia and the Philippines and teach the natives how to farm ,and inform them a little more about the whole science around the ocean eco systems around them. This fund could also help supply materials to start out with over seas such as coral mounts ,glue and wracks . Once these people learned the mariculture techniques themselves they could each start there own plot in the ocean and grow coral crops out to sell to the trade. Or you could help support the start of some type of business that goes along and uses patches of the ocean to farm these things and would hire local people to help check and tend the farms. Same goes for live rock farming . setup patches of agrocrete rocks in the ocean and let them cook and then harvest them. I know that these things exist already I just want to make them more prevalent. I believe these areas should also have executive supervisors check on them a couple times a year to make sure things are going smoothly. who would pay for these executive supervisors? who would decide who gets the job?

It would also be a great help to the Indonesian people if we could get them to have a better understanding of global trade and negotiation so they will be better of and wont keep selling there products off at such dirt cheap prices anymore. cost of living, these people have very little overhead, very little risk etc. They need to realize how valuable there products truly are. I donít like to get to deep into nations personal people issues though I like to mainly stick to the wildlife part of things but I felt like even though this point isnít of great concern to me at this moment that it at least be mentioned.

As far as the whole ordeal in the part of the holding of fishes in wholesale facilities I believe it is up to us to make sure government gets laws changed so that fish are treated as fairly as any other animal. If you truly love these animals entirely and not just the ones you or your immediate friends or family may have youíll really care about getting fish and other aquatic organisms more wrights. Youíll help fund or support causes that will keep stricter holding codes in check to make sure fish are being kept and transported correctly. The trade isnít terrible but it isnít perfect either and I believe we need to work through these steps to help the trade get better. This is not to say all these facilityís are bad ,its to get the bad ones to be forced to become like the good ones already are. I think we can all strive for better handling practices, however that starts with you the customer... buying from Petcos, or poor LFS that don't care where they get their fish from or how many die should not be supported.

As an overall summary I would like to say that I wouldnít mind if these plans are constructively criticized or agreed with. But I wouldnít be disappointed to see any bashing . We can all learn more through each others view points. Overall I believe that we should try to make our trade better by ourselves. Supporting as much captive grown ,bred or maricultured livestock as possible is always good. I think that many hobbyist want to help make the trade better but just donít know how to . this is why I would like to see some more people in the saltwater hobby setup and create charityís that really help make a difference and were the money really goes to that cause. Maybe a site that shows video progress and articles of there achievements on there websites all in thanks of the donations they received. I have discussed other ways of achieving good charity types of ideas in my other paper.I wouldnít mind if we get some government assistance but I would like to see the saltwater aquarium community do most the work themselves . like I have said before we can make this better but we just have to get a good plan down like I believe mine is , get our heads together and get organized as a community and DO IT! As a reader really take some time and think about the points made and compare and contrast them with yours and even if you think my ideaís are terrible keep an open mind and try to see how one might see how they would work and remember constructive criticism is wanted ,bashing is not. My final words will be , Just remember to keep on fragging.

In the end, you hit some very good points, but it starts with educating the buyers and making good choices yourself.

accordsirh22
05/29/2014, 10:06 AM
too many walls of text. politics is also misspelled in your title. just a couple editing points to make it easier to read. i honestly didnt bother reading because the blocks of text were too long

albano
05/29/2014, 10:47 AM
too many walls of text. politics is also misspelled in your title. just a couple editing points to make it easier to read. i honestly didnt bother reading because the blocks of text were too long

+1...however, I did 'skim' the post and it appears to be an opinion, not based on any actual knowledge of the subject

Illhaveanother
05/29/2014, 03:38 PM
I realize now that hypo salinity is not a definite killer of saltwater parisites but it helps. I still belive fish need rights.it is true however that shipping is still not perfect and long constant journeys for fishes will likely kill some of tem in large orders.i just want to really get these what I feel are good ideas of mine into others heads so they can start brain storming ways up to save our reefs.

Illhaveanother
05/29/2014, 03:39 PM
do people still use cyanide so muchin the indo pacific?
also the carrbiean is one of the most sustainable fishiries around.

Illhaveanother
05/29/2014, 03:50 PM
let me just say one very important thing.

I made up this paper for one reason. I want to better our community. I want the general public to see our hobby as one of good and one that helps people and the inviormewnt not hurts it. I love the community aspect of reefing I want to try to get more people interested in the actual oceans our livestock comes from and protecting them. I want people to have a real cause for keeping aquariums not just cause there "pretty". I want people to care about what fish they buy and be educated about where they com e from how there caught and how there money effects everything.


personally I only take captive bred livestock or livestock that comes from sustainable places like Fiji island , Caribbean, Australia and Hawaii.

I have a pearly jawfish
captive bred part black clownfish
and falcao hawkfish .

most my corals are captive grown.

Illhaveanother
05/29/2014, 03:50 PM
another thing that I feel like mentioning is that sure there are those BAD petstores where everythings gone wrong but the lfs has bad wild fish but cool people. feel like its important to honor good customer service . so i will buy snails or liverock or corals and captive bred fish there because there cool , nice and relatively intelligent people that i have been friends with for a long time and they give me good deals. but i refuse to support any of there wildcaught sick dying crap they get from that other whole sale place that's located in conn. i feel the same way with petco , if the people are nice ,and i need it , i will buy an appropriate item. what this dose is show that those items are selling well and the store will bring more of it in . if everyone was to only support the good things so that fish stores would order mostly those things then we wouldn't have so many fish die off.

albano
05/29/2014, 04:02 PM
I see that your screen name is 'Illhaveanother', but I have a feeling that you're not legally old enough to say that!... Am I right?

Illhaveanother
05/29/2014, 04:32 PM
Ill have another as in the race horse

Illhaveanother
05/29/2014, 04:33 PM
And lets stick to the Main topic!

albano
05/29/2014, 04:45 PM
I see that your screen name is 'Illhaveanother', but I have a feeling that you're not legally old enough to say that!... Am I right?

And lets stick to the Main topic!

I think I got my answer!

Illhaveanother
05/29/2014, 05:32 PM
No I am 57 and my 18 year old son shares this account with me . Honestly I don't see why age matters ?

Fishfirst
05/29/2014, 10:48 PM
do people still use cyanide so muchin the indo pacific?
also the carrbiean is one of the most sustainable fishiries around.

Have you ever ordered from some of these Caribbean wholesalers/collectors? I disagree that they are some of the best handled fish, sustainable? yes, ethical? debatable

Fishfirst
05/29/2014, 10:51 PM
another thing that I feel like mentioning is that sure there are those BAD petstores where everythings gone wrong but the lfs has bad wild fish but cool people. feel like its important to honor good customer service . so i will buy snails or liverock or corals and captive bred fish there because there cool , nice and relatively intelligent people that i have been friends with for a long time and they give me good deals. but i refuse to support any of there wildcaught sick dying crap they get from that other whole sale place that's located in conn. i feel the same way with petco , if the people are nice ,and i need it , i will buy an appropriate item. what this dose is show that those items are selling well and the store will bring more of it in . if everyone was to only support the good things so that fish stores would order mostly those things then we wouldn't have so many fish die off.

Then you would be part of the problem, not the solution. Supporting those places in any way is detrimental to your goal.

alton
05/30/2014, 05:32 AM
You write an article that bashes fishermen and wholesalers. You make statements like others that fishermen over collect without proof, and then ask for others not to bash you? The only thing I agree about is donating to Ken Nedimyer and using great Florida stores like KP Aquatics which is Kens daughter and son-in-law. If you are going to write an article you need to gives credits to people who can back up your claims.

Illhaveanother
05/30/2014, 05:32 AM
Yes I have ordered from places in the carribean and all the fish I have recived have come healthy except a few jawfish ( witch ship bad anyway) and the people replaced it without any problem . It is much more sustainable than Indonesia or the philipenes . Now care is differnt although an established country like the US would have an easier time getting a hold of the proper care equipment than some people living in a third world world country. Please realize I'm not trying to be offensive I'm just stateing the facts. No fishery is perfect but places like hawii the caribean Fiji and Australia are much better and more sustainable than say Indonesian and the phillpenes.

Illhaveanother
05/30/2014, 05:35 AM
I use simple logic

Fishfirst
05/30/2014, 06:36 AM
The facts based on how you see the world, not actual data analyzed and vetted by your peers. Sorry but I have much better luck with fish from qm vs any vendor from the east coast

Illhaveanother
05/30/2014, 12:55 PM
What's Qm

GreshamH
05/30/2014, 02:09 PM
Quality Marine... wholesaler in Los Angeles

SloppyJ
05/30/2014, 02:27 PM
I didn't read it because the title is misspelled

Illhaveanother
05/30/2014, 03:30 PM
Well that's about the only thing that's misspelled so you should read it .
It's a good article.

Illhaveanother
05/30/2014, 03:41 PM
Qm looks pretty good . I haven't order from them yet so I wouldn't know though . I have had great sucsess ordering from places in Flordia though , multiple places in fact. I like how QM offers the Mac certified fish and tell you were there collected . But really it's not about who you order from its about the fish you order if you order a caribean fish say from any website it's better than ordering an phillipean or especially an indoseian fish !

Illhaveanother
05/30/2014, 03:44 PM
Remember part of my "plan" in the paper was to decrease fish importation from phillipean and Indonesia but to increase coral orders . Because I realize these people still need jobs but I think if mariculture plantations were implemented it would help take pressure off wild fish stock because people wouldn't have to catch them because they would be working at the plantations all day. The plantations would b sustainable aswell.

Fishfirst
05/30/2014, 04:46 PM
Again, I think you have some misconceptions that need to be ironed out with a bit more experience and you must start to practice what you preach first. Our hobby merely scratches the surface as far as fish mortality is concerned... cyanide, commercial fishing, runoff, development, pollution, etc is much more dangerous to reefs world wide than our hobby. Yes we want to become completely sustainable of course... but you must look at the bigger picture to understand the real threats.

billsreef
05/30/2014, 05:36 PM
FYI the problem with Jawfish isn't that they ship bad. They often caught using Quinaldine squirted into their burrows. While not as bad as using cyanide, it's still not as good as strictly net caught. Not all areas of the Tropical West Atlantic are as well regulated as others in regards to the fishery. Even in FL they had to put a moratorium on collecting Condylactus anemones due to overfishing.

Illhaveanother
05/30/2014, 07:37 PM
I don't ever think we will become completely sustainable I just want to become more sustainable . I think that the places metion earlier such as Carib, Australia ect. Arnt perfect but are far more sustainable than places like the majority of Indonesia and the phillpenes .

Just think about it like a barrel of apples . There are always some bad apples in the barrel aka ( the law breakers , bad people , poor maneged fishieres )

It's just there's ALOT more bad apples in the Indonesian and phillipean barrel than in in the Carib , Fiji , Australia , hawii , other small sustainable islands barrels .

Illhaveanother
05/30/2014, 07:41 PM
I definitely agree with you guys about other things such as pollution and commercial fishing being big problems . Jus look at the tuna it's endangered now please people stop eating it before it goes extinct ! But that's not to say the ornemetal trade hasn't had its impact ! I believe that we really do need to make stricter laws on coastal devolpment, and we need to find ways to keep pollutants out of our oceans . I know most pollutants come from land . It's a shame those shrimp farmers had to pull out all those mangrove trees that help filter out all the bad crap before it gets to the reefs!

KafudaFish
05/30/2014, 09:03 PM
I had a long response typed out for you but to be honest I don't care enough to post it.

Long story short, your article is entirely based upon your opinions and not facts as evident by your fourth sentence in the first paragraph. Overall, it is poorly written and any hope of communicating in an effective manner is lost to the reader quickly.

If you wish to convince people that they should improve the current situation, perhaps you should take this as a first draft, research the issues, present facts to support your opinions, and have someone else proof read the article before you post again.

Good luck and keep fighting the good fight.

Illhaveanother
05/30/2014, 09:34 PM
Once agian ,
Logic

albano
05/30/2014, 09:54 PM
I had a long response typed out for you but to be honest I don't care enough to post it.

Long story short, your article is entirely based upon your opinions and not facts ... Overall, it is poorly written and any hope of communicating in an effective manner is lost to the reader quickly.

If you wish to convince people that they should improve the current situation, perhaps you should take this as a first draft, research the issues, present facts to support your opinions, and have someone else proof read the article before you post again.

Absolutely right!

Illhaveanother
05/31/2014, 05:25 AM
So what do you guys belive I am wrong because I have no solid ''facts''. Are my opinions not the truth ? If so tell me how ? I will get the info to back this up if you don't belive me .

SandyPup
05/31/2014, 06:48 AM
I think your general premise is a good one, though you do go astray here and there. The pen is truly a powerful tool for change, when it's in the hands of a knowledgeable person. Do your research - thoroughly - before making your argument.

And you may think that spelling is trivial, but you lose credibility when words are continuously misspelled or misused. The title is far from the only misspelled word in your article. I also skipped this post over many times because I didn't know what 'polotics' were. I'm just saying, spell-check is a good thing! And there is nothing better than a good old fashioned dictionary.

snorvich
05/31/2014, 07:27 AM
I had a long response typed out for you but to be honest I don't care enough to post it.

Long story short, your article is entirely based upon your opinions and not facts as evident by your fourth sentence in the first paragraph. Overall, it is poorly written and any hope of communicating in an effective manner is lost to the reader quickly.

If you wish to convince people that they should improve the current situation, perhaps you should take this as a first draft, research the issues, present facts to support your opinions, and have someone else proof read the article before you post again.

Good luck and keep fighting the good fight.

I agree. Even a good thesis, poorly written, will be unconvincing to the vast majority who will skip over it as lacking credibility.

Illhaveanother
05/31/2014, 08:18 AM
Not judging it as a paper just judgeing the ideas portrayed , do you think I have valid points or do most of you just completely disagree with me ?

plantastic
05/31/2014, 10:02 AM
I don't think anyone would disagree with the premise that sustainability is a priority.

I do think that most folks that have worked in this industry, and educated themselves on this industry, can clearly surmise that you have not, and are not.

Opinions are not facts. They are your "summation" of a fact. If you are uneducated or misinformed regarding facts, then you will usually have an uninformed or short sighted opinion.

This is not meant to bash you...you definitely show a passion...that passion should be the "fuel" to put forth the effort to become educated, regarding the topic which you have passion for...

Here's to hoping you become someone that changes the industry for the better,:beer:!!

Timfish
05/31/2014, 10:15 AM
I can appreciate your desire to make this a better world. I also agree in principle we need better laws, regulations to encourage and better manage sustainable resources not only of reef ecosystems but globally. However I think you would be well served to take some creative writing or English classes.

Sorry but to be honest my first thought to your claim of "Some innovative new ideas" was "Yeah, right! How does he know his ideas are either!" To follow up with my initial thoughts nowhere have you said anything I thought was new or innovative. You set an incredibly high bar for yourself and what you wrote I feel was poorly thought out and presented and stuff I've heard in one form or another for a couple of decades now.

I do think you would help your position if you put a little more thought into your statements, did a little more research and listed references. For an example, taking your idea of collectors and wholesalers holding fish for 5 days to make sure all specimens acclimate well. How do you know some of them haven't tried this already? Some of the wholesalers have been around for decades, what do they say to this? How do you know 5 days is adequate for a fish to acclimate? (Seems like for a start some simple experiments could be done with a few small tanks and small gobies or damsels if you were so inclined, having some hard data from your own research would at the least give you more credibility.) Does a fish experience more stress being moved quickly from tank to tank or does it experience more stress being moved, acclimated, then moved? With the longer time in an aquarium with other fish what is the disease transmission rate besides the common external parasites? Does acclimating the fish increase disease transmission even if it reduces moving stress? How many fish can be acclimated together (this will certainly vary by species)? What is the balance point between stress experienced from aggression and stress experienced from moving or is it just a trade off and a fish may experience a constant level of stress? If you ask me I'd say the trend to get the fish to the the consumer quicker is probably the better way, it can now be just a few days compared to the weeks it may have taken in the early '90s but that's just my opinion.

Some other topics I think you've left out completely that should be addressed is how critical it is to restore apex predators, here's two references:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0074648
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18308421?dopt=Abstract

The impact "tourists" have on reefs:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2291018/

And biopiracy is almost certainly going to affect all of us one way or another as well in the years to come although the extant it directly impacts aquarists in the US may be negligable for a very long time. It is quite possible however for some of us to have very rare species that may be unique to one island. What are the potential legal ramifications of propagating an animal unique to a country without that country's permission?

syrinx
05/31/2014, 11:02 AM
I had a long response typed out for you but to be honest I don't care enough to post it.

Long story short, your article is entirely based upon your opinions and not facts as evident by your fourth sentence in the first paragraph. Overall, it is poorly written and any hope of communicating in an effective manner is lost to the reader quickly.

If you wish to convince people that they should improve the current situation, perhaps you should take this as a first draft, research the issues, present facts to support your opinions, and have someone else proof read the article before you post again.

Good luck and keep fighting the good fight.



Agree 100% and could not have said it better. You do need to support opinions with facts- otherwise you are relying on peoples faith in you to believe what you say. With the spelling etc, you do not foster faith.

voyager68
05/31/2014, 11:15 AM
Well that's about the only thing that's misspelled so you should read it .
It's a good article.

polotics?....maybe POLITICS
altimer's?....maybe ALZHEIMER'S
phillpenes?....maybe PHILIPPINES

syrinx
05/31/2014, 11:18 AM
Once agian ,
Logic


"Scientists do not arrive at models and theories by application of logic. They arrive at them by many processes lumped under the name 'induction'. Induction cannot be reduced to a set of logical rules (though many have tried). To see patterns (sometimes subtle and hidden ones) in data and observations requires creative ability. This is the ability to think ahead and say, "What model, set of statements (laws) or theoretical construct could I devise from which these observations and data might be deduced?"

We can't find, discover, or construct scientific laws and theories by mathematics and logic alone. But we can derive testable and useful results by application of mathematics and logic to laws and theories, and if those deduced results pass experimental tests, our confidence in the validity of the theory from which they were derived is strengthened.

In this context, logic and mathematics are reliable and essential tools. Outside of this context they are instruments of error and self-delusion. Whenever you hear a politician, theologian or evangelist casting verbal arguments in the trappings of logic, you can be pretty sure that person is talking moonshine."

Illhaveanother
05/31/2014, 12:51 PM
Thank you for your comment plantastic :)

And yours to timfish

Illhaveanother
05/31/2014, 01:56 PM
I still believe in logic to a degree nomatter what anyone says.

You said you have heard of these ideas Before such as a non profit orgsnization that grows and sells aquacultured corals and donates the profits to help restore wild reefs.
I
You have heard of not farms but mariculture plantations in places like Indonesia and the philipenes that provide enough jobs to people that that don't have to hunt ornamental fish .

Or even any liverock or coral mariculture plantations at all .

Please show me evidence of this because I have never heard of it at all I though it was a new idea .

Fishfirst
05/31/2014, 02:12 PM
a quick google search would answer your question...
http://www.pacificeastaquaculture.com/solomon-islands-coral-farm.asp
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-08/eb/index.php

Fishfirst
05/31/2014, 02:16 PM
there will always be a demand for ornamental fish from those areas

Illhaveanother
05/31/2014, 03:02 PM
Yes I know there will always be a demand for fish from that area but if there are people who are working on coral plantations than there will be less people to catch fish and it will thin out the crowd so to speak. This would make the people who catch them ones who are better at it and will assure that a higher percentage of fish are caught sustainably , at least from my point of view. All we can do for now is buy fish from sustainable nations and try to put plans like mine into action. :)

johnike
05/31/2014, 03:09 PM
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m9/tracyj23/10421991-4.png (http://media.photobucket.com/user/tracyj23/media/10421991-4.png.html)

albano
05/31/2014, 03:26 PM
...All we can do for now is buy fish from sustainable nations and try to put plans like mine into action. :)

It's nice to dream...

Illhaveanother
05/31/2014, 03:33 PM
Just like you

power boat jim
05/31/2014, 08:39 PM
A paper that is simply full of opinion and logic is an editorial. If you wish it to be considered factual it needs contain to sources you used to back up the information you want to be considered as facts. Hence the use of foot notes in most reviewed articles.

This allows the reader to review sources for authenticity. If sources cant be verified you have nothing but an opinion.

Illhaveanother
05/31/2014, 08:52 PM
Do you think these opinions are factual even though I personally haven supported the facts yet?

Sugar Magnolia
05/31/2014, 08:58 PM
Do you think these opinions are factual even though I personally haven supported the facts yet?

Absolutely not. Why you are continuing this is beyond me.

Illhaveanother
05/31/2014, 09:07 PM
Just wow

power boat jim
05/31/2014, 09:12 PM
Do you think these opinions are factual even though I personally haven supported the facts yet?

What you have is an idea/proposal based on your opinion by using very general language to support your view. You cant use the terms opinion and fact in the same sentence in a scientific paper, one has nothing to do with the other. Its not easy to write a paper and have it widely accepted as fact. If that is your goal you first need to research how to write a paper of that sort. I think then you will see what you are lacking here.

OrQidz
05/31/2014, 09:17 PM
It's hard to take anything seriously when it is poorly written and filled with grammatical and spelling errors.

I salute your wish to improve things and I think your heart is in the right place.

snorvich
06/01/2014, 04:38 AM
Absolutely not. Why you are continuing this is beyond me.

Actually, there are more of the same opinion. Unfortunately you can only make a first impression once.

DgenR8
06/01/2014, 04:54 AM
Just wow

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on this thread.

billsreef
06/01/2014, 07:52 AM
Facts are measurable things, data such as how much rain fell, how many annual rings on the otolith of a fish you can count, the depth of water you can find a given species of fish living at, etc. Opinions are merely thought and don't need to be based on facts, or even reality. Hence the need to support opinion with actual facts if you want people to listen to your opinion ;) It also helps to write in a manner that is easy to read. A rambling stream of conscience wall of words doesn't achieve that end. Listen to PowerBoatJim, the PBJ is wise. Also many others made quite valid points.

BTW when you look at how much of the trade is in fish, and how much is in coral, there just isn't the economic viability to your coral plantation idea being able to support enough workers to cause a decrease in people working as fishermen and thereby reducing fish catches.

Illhaveanother
06/01/2014, 12:39 PM
Can I see some of this info to support your arguments against me ?

power boat jim
06/01/2014, 01:28 PM
I don't believe anyone is arguing with you, just pointing out something you might want to consider before pouring a lot more effort into your cause.

Illhaveanother
06/01/2014, 08:50 PM
Come check out my zoa theory thread:dance:

reeferstace
06/01/2014, 10:04 PM
Can I see some of this info to support your arguments against me ?

Laughable. You are the one who needs to supply info.

Support your own ideas. Also, learn some proper grammar.

Illhaveanother
06/02/2014, 05:08 AM
It's not laughable you guys are saying I'm wrong but I don't see any info on your side to back your arguments up. Therefore your just as bad as me spewing info without "facts".

DgenR8
06/02/2014, 05:11 AM
You might have an argument there, but considering you started spewing first, and have spewed so much more than anyone else. I still feel like the responsibility of offering some facts to back yourself up is yours.

GreshamH
06/06/2014, 04:44 PM
I still believe in logic to a degree nomatter what anyone says.

You said you have heard of these ideas Before such as a non profit orgsnization that grows and sells aquacultured corals and donates the profits to help restore wild reefs.
I
You have heard of not farms but mariculture plantations in places like Indonesia and the philipenes that provide enough jobs to people that that don't have to hunt ornamental fish .

Or even any liverock or coral mariculture plantations at all .

Please show me evidence of this because I have never heard of it at all I though it was a new idea .

Just an FYI... it will take an act of the Philippine Congress to legalize the export of stony corals from PI. As of now, its a HUGE no no. There have been farms set-up there purely for restoration.