Sump overflowing when a fuse jumps

[RafaelAtkinson]

Okay. So I just bought a new 55 gallon tank. Upgrading from my 10 gallon nano tank. I was wanting to put a Sump in my new setup but I do have a lot of issues when it comes to power outages. The issue lies within my fuses, they always seem to jump because my house electrical wiring was not correctly installed I guess when the house was built. I am worried that if I install a Sump and a fuse jumps my Sump will over flow and I'll come home to water on the floor.
Is their any way to prevent this?
I know I could set up a battery but can't really find any info on this.
Our can I get away with not having a Sump and just do weekly water changes and have a good Skimmer?

But i really would like to have a Sump.
Thanks in advance!

[pmrossetti]

Your system needs to be designed so that the sump can handle the backflow when the power goes out.

[RafaelAtkinson]

How do I do that?

[pmrossetti]

Have a sump that's big enough to handle it. Have your intakes from your tank up high enough so they don't syphon much water down into your sump.
Or drill small hole in your intakes just below the water line.

[RafaelAtkinson]

When you refer to intakes your referring to the over flow box?

[RafaelAtkinson]

Oh and I'm thinking of using a 10 gallon tank I have laying around to make the Sump.

[Mike Ordner]

How will the water flow from DT to sump back to DT be set up? Somewhere in there you need something to break the siphon. Easiest is drilling small holes just below the waterline on the return pipes from the sump to DT as mentioned above. Really need more information to help you out. But all good designs will take power outages into account.

[pmrossetti]

When you refer to intakes your referring to the over flow box?

Sorry, your returns from the sump to the tank.
If they're above the water they wont backsyphon.

But your sump still needs to be able to hold the water from your overflow and plumbing.

[Rocko1]

+1 for above, also if you don't want the return to shut off after a power outage, you can use an APC back up it will only last awhile depending on the wattage draw of your return

[ca1ore]

A good rule-of-thumb for a typical reef ready tank is to have a sump be about a third of the size of the display. For a 55, I'd view a 10 gallon tank as too small - I'd go with a 20.

[sowildpaul]

What about a check valve like this on a return pipe?
http://i.imgur.com/Et02uO4.jpg (http://imgur.com/Et02uO4)

BRS recommends it.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/<a href=http://imgur.com/xBI7ZpO target=_blank>[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/xBI7ZpO.jpg

[RafaelAtkinson]

Okay so what I'm planning to built a Sump from the 10 gallon. I plan on having an eshopps over flow box PF-300, rated 300gph. For up to a 75 gallon tank. The Sump will be 3 compartments. First compartment is the drain from the display tank. In their I will have a filter sock and Skimmer. Middle compartment will have live rock and sand. This compartment will be the return pump.
I'm using a 10 gallon because that's the only size that would fit in my stand.
So if I have my return higher than the water level it won't syphon back. Right?
So than would I have to worry anything about the over flow box of the power goes out?

[RafaelAtkinson]

Or I might have my Skimmer in the third compartment which is the return pump compartment. Since I believe having that compartment be the biggest of them all. Am I correct?

[RafaelAtkinson]

Pic of my new tank, got it for$90.
Pretty good deal if I don't say so myself :-D

[sowildpaul]

So if I have my return higher than the water level it won't syphon back. Right? Yes, that's right.
So than would I have to worry anything about the over flow box of the power goes out?

http://reefcentral.com/index.php/sump-volume

[RafaelAtkinson]

What about a check valve like this on a return pipe?
http://i.imgur.com/Et02uO4.jpg (http://imgur.com/Et02uO4)

BRS recommends it.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/<a href=http://imgur.com/xBI7ZpO target=_blank>[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/xBI7ZpO.jpg

Ya that's a good idea. Would I be able to do that on the overflow drain line to? Or should I not even consider that.
Sorry guys... I'm very new to this an not relatively knowledgeable about plumbing.

[EllisJuan]

You are going to need a bigger tank for your sump. You are not going to be able to fit everything you are going to want for a 75g tank in a 10g, especially if you are planning on having a refugium in it.

[sowildpaul]

Ya that's a good idea. Would I be able to do that on the overflow drain line to? Or should I not even consider that.
Sorry guys... I'm very new to this an not relatively knowledgeable about plumbing.NO NO NO! That's for return pipes, especially with bulkheads on the back or bottom of a tank that they are located much lower than water level.

Did you use the calculation in the link I gave you? It tells you the recommended minimum gallons of a sump for your tank. If 10 gallons sump is too small, then you have to replace the stand and get/build a larger sump to be placed inside a new stand if you don't want it to be placed outside of the current stand.

[ca1ore]

Check valves invariably fail - a really bad idea to be relying on them! Also note to do both parts of the sump calculator; the first part just tells you how much water will drain down with power loss, not total sump volume.

[sowildpaul]

Check valves invariably fail - a really bad idea to be relying on them! Also note to do both parts of the sump calculator; the first part just tells you how much water will drain down with power loss, not total sump volume.Even an expensive check valve like the one BRS recommends will also fail?

[ca1ore]

Problem with check valves in a reef tank is that they build up crud inside (like every part of your plumbing). Said crud can then prevent the weight from sealing properly and it will leak. I used to use the exact same Y check valves all the time until I realized they all leaked - or the weight got stuck in the open position. OK, you can clean them frequently, but still doesn't preclude them from leaking. Far better just to have your return just slightly below the tank water surface to prevent siphon.

[Macimage]

Do not rely on check valves or holes drilled in the return, they will eventually clog and fail.

Plan your plumbing so that your returns are high enough up in your tank and your sump is large enough to handle any back flow when the inevitable power outage or power failure occurs.

[sowildpaul]

Problem with check valves in a reef tank is that they build up crud inside (like every part of your plumbing). Said crud can then prevent the weight from sealing properly and it will leak. I used to use the exact same Y check valves all the time until I realized they all leaked - or the weight got stuck in the open position. OK, you can clean them frequently, but still doesn't preclude them from leaking. Far better just to have your return just slightly below the tank water surface to prevent siphon.
Oh, that's bad news so they are unreliable. Thanks for the explanation.

[Randy Marsh]

Hi I have started a second 75 gallon aquarium and need some help. I've done a treatment with a powder called cyano x. My protein skimmer is overflowing for the last three days. I've changed at least 25% water and am concerned to do anymore as tank has only been running for 4 weeks. Can I / should I change more water ? And will it calm down or should I be doing something else to the pump in my skimmer ?

[Randy Marsh]

I'm new her so I'm running a 75 gallon tank with a aquatic life T5 with lunar lights and a sump 40x16x16. My protein skimmer is a bubble magnus curve 7. Was awesome up until this point.

[dbdisok]

Before you go throug with your grade you should have the electrical issues fixed. There are going to be more electrical demands from your tank than you might expect.

[Worom]

I would not suggest using a 10 gallon sump with that tank. 20 gallons min. Looks like you got a great deal on the tank though. :thumbsup:

[RafaelAtkinson]

Thanks everyone for responding. Ya I know I should get the electrical thing fixed. It's going to cost thousands to do so. Lol. Well thinking for the mean while getting a good Skimmer and a fluval c4 for filtration for the mean while. Plus keep up with water changes until I can fix the electrical situation and maybe built myself a new stand with more room to put a 20 gallon Sump.

[RafaelAtkinson]

Would that be a reasonable thing to do? The tank will have live sand and live rock. At least 40 pounds of rock.

[RafaelAtkinson]

I would not suggest using a 10 gallon sump with that tank. 20 gallons min. Looks like you got a great deal on the tank though. :thumbsup:

Thanks!

[SeedlessOne]

Before you go throug with your grade you should have the electrical issues fixed. There are going to be more electrical demands from your tank than you might expect.

Glad someone brought this up.


Thanks everyone for responding. Ya I know I should get the electrical thing fixed. It's going to cost thousands to do so. Lol. Well thinking for the mean while getting a good Skimmer and a fluval c4 for filtration for the mean while. Plus keep up with water changes until I can fix the electrical situation and maybe built myself a new stand with more room to put a 20 gallon Sump.

It could be something as simple as a bad breaker.

Yes it will cost some money for an electrician but its cheaper than burning your house down, if there is indeed an issue with your wiring.

And your 10g sump will never work. That is way too small.. For that size i would look at getting at least a 20g and preferably a 29g.

Good luck

[joekidwell]

Add up all the amps from each piece of equipment and other things electrical in the room to make sure you are not drawing more than your fuse box or breaker can handle. I had the same problem till I found out my mag 7 drew 5.6 amps, quickly replaced with a pump that was stronger and only used 1 amp

[pmrossetti]

You could easily go sumpless with a 55. HOB skimmer, maybe an Aquaclear and a small power head would be fine.

[RafaelAtkinson]

Ok ya thats probably what im going to do is just get myself a skimmer and that fluval c4 for chemical and biological filtration, for the mean anyways. Until i built a bigger stand for a bigger future sump. Thanks guys!

[Maivortex]

Would a 20 extra high fit in the stand? It has the same foot print as a 10 gallon but 2x the height......

[RafaelAtkinson]

Yes probably so.... Will measure tomorrow! Thanks

[SoFloReefer]

To Randy Marsh: You should start a new thread with your questions.

To RafaelAtkinson: I would get the electrical fixed before even starting a tank or atleast find out what the issue is. Electrical wiring for a house is not complicated and many people can do it themselves. If I had a house that needed to be completely wired I would have an electrican wire in a new breaker box and I would make all the runs to the outlets and connections at said breaker box.

As far as the tank, you NEED to have the return siphon break when the power to the return pump shuts off. First of all, this is how you feed your tank. You don't want the overflow to compete with your fish for food. I use LOC line fittings for my return. This allows me to set the return nozzle at the exact height I need to break the siphon when the pump turns off.

Also, that stand is garbage. It looks like particle board and has no room for a sump. You can build a new stand for very cheap with a little research in the DIY section here. You want at least a 20 gallon tank for a 55. Your tank looks like a 75 to me so you would want even larger. Measure the dimensions and find out the size.

Finally, check valves are useless in a salt water tank. Don't even waste your money for the reasons mentioned above.

[Indymann99]

On the siphon break for the return. I also use loc line and have them set so that they siphon break at about the same level as the overflow weir.

Sorry the pict below is not super clear... returns are circled in yellow.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn10/Indymann99/SurfaceAgVideobyIndymann99_zps63fa14a9.jpg (http://s300.photobucket.com/user/Indymann99/media/SurfaceAgVideobyIndymann99_zps63fa14a9.jpg.html)

Vid of the returns when return pump is ON. Also this configuration provides a ripple effect on the surface to promote gas exchange AND provides a little bit of ripple lighting effect. I have T5 lighting so nothing like MH.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn10/Indymann99/th_Surfaceag.jpg (http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn10/Indymann99/Surfaceag.mp4)

Finally shot of sump return chamber with the PUMP OFF (return pump) showing the level the sump will rise with the return OFF. I also do water changes out of my sump so this is the level I REFILL the sump to post WC.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn10/Indymann99/PumpONOFF.jpg (http://s300.photobucket.com/user/Indymann99/media/PumpONOFF.jpg.html)

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn10/Indymann99/Sump12132009.jpg (http://s300.photobucket.com/user/Indymann99/media/Sump12132009.jpg.html)

Do note these sump picts are a bit out of date... I no longer run the check valve you see (for reasons listed in posts above.. they always fail). Also I have switched to gate valves for my Herbie drain (just easier to adjust, I did run many years on ball valves).