ants in my....tank

[_dilly]

my current tank just hit the 1yr mark. things have been very stable, nice growth (mixed but primarily sps), no complaints. about 2 weeks ago i started to notice the water was getting a bit milky. i've been down this road in other tanks and my first thought was ca precip but was wondering how it could be. i run zeovit and am no longer a fan of absurdly high ca & alk tanks. tested those along with mg using 2 different brands. ca 400ppm, alk 7.3dkh, mg 1275ppm. i didn't panic and try anything else, just stuck with my weekly 20% water changes - and in the process of those also tested the new water and it is practically identical to my current levels and water is absolutely clear in my brute prior to the change. my next thought was that maybe my doser schedule was somehow overlapping and dosing ca and alk at the same time and somehow the streams were crossing as they hit the water but no. lines are spaced and dosing is staggered enough that they don't overlap. so now i'm just confused. i do a water change, and it's fairly clear the following day, then it just gradually gets milky again. i am used to absolutely crystal clear water and my tank looks like i'm dosing coral snow by the hour if anyone uses that and knows what it looks like. and i do use coral snow, but haven't during this period of white. so needless to say, i keep looking for the answer. well the other day i was looking at my sump and noticed i have a colony of ants living on my mangroves - they were definitely not there until recently. so obviously the 2 could be totally unrelated but i do see a couple dead ants in my display and top all this off with a few sps not looking too happy....something is going on. any ideas?

[HighlandReefer]

Perhaps a bacterial bloom.

Either way, bacterial bloom or calcium carbonate precipitation, the answer would be better filtration. In the case of bacterial bloom, reduced feeding may be in order.

[HighlandReefer]

Another pest comes to mind that could cause your problem would be plant sucking insects on your mangroves like aphids, plant hoppers & some scale insects. These insects can suck up more food from the plant than they can consume. The result would be that they secret honey due from their back end. Honey dew is almost pure sugar. The can secret a lot of it. The ants will climb the plant to get the honey dew. If this honey slowly drops in your water, it would be the equivalent of dosing sugar which could cause bacterial blooms.

Check your plantings carefully to see if you do have any of these insects. ;)

If so, you would need to take your fingers and kill them manually, since you don't want any pesticides in your tank. You would need to check regularly to see if more develop over time. The eggs are very small and hard to see.

A picture of aphids being tended by ants for their honey dew:

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/carpenter-ant-aphids-15100536.jpg

This is what the hone dew looks like when it drops from aphids down on leaves below: (in some cases you will get a dark colored mold growing on the honey dew on plant leaves)

http://www.entomology.wisc.edu/diaglab/hilites/hnydw4_5.jpg

This is what sooty mold looks like growing on the honey dew dropping on leaves: you can see that aphids produce a lot of honey dew. If there are enough of them they could overdose your tank with sugar, which doesn't take much in my experience.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-s808yf4lO0E/T_tyRUBMJNI/AAAAAAAABM0/41hrV7n76Fw/s1600/sootymld.jpg

[_dilly]

wow, how crazy would that be...thanks for that answer...and i thought all i had to worry about was reef pests. this would explain a lot. i'm going to check it out

[ViktorVaughn]

Aphids are such a pain, obviously no experience related to reef tanks, but I have battled them many times in my garden. I always use neem oil to kick the aphids. It takes a bit longer but is an organic alternative to chemical insectisides. Doesnt flat out kill bugs, just confuses them into forgetting to eat, knowing they can fly, and prevents eggs from hatching eventually leading to their demise. Might check up on Mangroves and Neem, I've yet to encounter a plant that reacts negatively to it.

[disc1]

But is it safe if it gets in the water in the tank?

[tmz]

Sounds like you might be are getting free fructose ,glucose and other sugars from the aphids if their hondew is what's what's drawing the ants. Honey dew is an organic carbon source which on top of what you are using in the zeovit sytem could cause a bacterial bloom;not sure if a significant amount would get into the water though. Maybe ,the zeovit additives are overloading the bacteria or creating nutrient issues.

Neem oil is mostly hyrdophobic triglycerides but may also include manufacturig impurities undesireable in a reef tank.It might be fine to use in small amounts on the mangrove stems an leaves above the water line .

[tmz]

absurdly high ca & alk tanks.

Care to define that

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe the ants are spitting formic acid into the tank, causing a bacterial bloom. :D

[_dilly]

absurdly high ca & alk tanks.

Care to define that

maybe around 14dkh, 500ppm ca which an lfs around me actually suggested i run.....where like 1 extra drop of either solution is milk city. i know you can be successful with high numbers, i used to do it...but i'm happy with where i am now.

[_dilly]

i appreciate the responses guys, would you say the best place to start would be to just remove the mangroves to get rid of the insects? i'm not sure how much they're actually helping me anyway - i have plenty of macro to help out plus carbon dosing - i just like the look of mangroves

[tmz]

Do you like having them? If so I'd just remove the ants. If not then I don't think removing them unless you have a forest would effect nutrients very much.

[tmz]

I think 7.3 dkh is fine . I'm comfortable wit hteh 9s in my sytem, 14dkh is high ,imo. 7 to 11dkh is ok if you keep it steady at a seelcted amount. 7 is easier to maintain but offers little margin for drops.

[_dilly]

Do you like having them? If so I'd just remove the ants. If not then I don't think removing them unless you have a forest would effect nutrients very much.

i do like having them, i know they're not really great nutrient exporters - if anything they probably drain my magnesium right? or at least i've heard that. although mine doesn't move much with 20-25% weekly wcs so that part doesn't bother me. i'll probably clean them off and see if the ants come back...or maybe center the mangroves in the water so the ants can't get to them. that's the problem is they're leaning and touching things.

I think 7.3 dkh is fine . I'm comfortable wit hteh 9s in my sytem, 14dkh is high ,imo. 7 to 11dkh is ok if you keep it steady at a seelcted amount. 7 is easier to maintain but offers little margin for drops.

i agree. honestly i would rather keep mine in the high 8s, low 9s - but i'm trying to follow the zeo guidelines - though i do wonder sometimes if they're just blowing smoke about the low dkh to sell their salt which i don't buy and it's just 'cool' to run what are claimed to be nsw levels. your tanks are awesome btw

[HighlandReefer]

Go out and catch yourself a Wheel Bug, he'll take care of your Aphids and such. :D

Just don't let him bite you!

http://bugguide.net/images/cache/YHPHHR2HCHXLEZ8LNZ7LWZ8LAZXL4Z7LGZ5HZR9HFHML3H9HNZ2HAZUHUZ7L3H2HRR9HYHIHGZ7HDHRLVHIHPZMHGZ.jpg

[Betta132]

Or a ladybug. Ladybugs don't stink you up or buzz by your ear doing a wasp impression.

[tmz]

Dillly.

I don't think they'll hurt your mag levels. If so a little dosing is easy enough. I think they're a fun thing to grow but take a good bit of room and light. I never tried them .

Thanks for the comment on the tanks;I haven't put up pictures in a long time ;they're better now,lot's of grwo and some new things. Working on some photo updates; not much of a photo guy though,so it may be awhile.

BTW.,My wife is a native North Carolinian from the Wilson area. We visit folks down there and have a beach home in Kitty Hawk.

[_dilly]

i plan to keep the mangroves, but after checking them out last night, i'm pretty sure i need to clean them off. posting a pic in a minute - definitely things other than ants living on them

i'll keep an eye out for those new pics!


Dillly.
BTW.,My wife is a native North Carolinian from the Wilson area. We visit folks down there and have a beach home in Kitty Hawk.

very cool. it seems like i pass through KH a couple times a year, i was in nags head recently. it's hard to beat the outer banks. definitely an awesome place for a beach house!

[_dilly]

are these aphids? there is definitely something going on here.....

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-kJABbJnLjhk/U48xPy1e88I/AAAAAAAAV8A/_CoVeq8tCyw/w693-h714-no/mangroves.jpg

[Balletomane]

Those look like mealy bugs to me. Back in my orchid growing days they would occasionally erupt. Not easily eradicated. I think I resorted to dormant oils. Probably not a good mix with a reef tank.

[MabuyaQ]

Indeed those are mealy bugs just like aphids feed on the plant juice and give of honeydew that has attracted the ants. So that is probably your extra carbon source causing a bacterial bloom.

[_dilly]

thanks guys,

well i do like mangroves, but maybe the best thing to do is remove these and set them up outside and get a new set eventually. i feel like these are monti eating nudis or something - take the mangroves out and wait for them to die off, get new ones later haha. this definitely solves the mystery. i have been stumped for a while worrying i'll start losing corals etc. tonight after work, mangroves are coming out and a water change is going down

[HighlandReefer]

Yep Mealy Bugs. ;)

You can squish them with your fingers to kill them and wash them off carefully since there should not be a mass of plant material. They do have a flying stage. They do lay very small eggs. So you will need to stay on top of them with hand squishing & washing all the plant surfaces including top and bottom of the leaves, but should be relatively easy to control without any pesticides.

See this link for more details:

http://houseplants.about.com/od/pests/a/Mealybugs.htm

They are likely overdosing your tank with sugar. ;)

[HighlandReefer]

Also, check out any other household plants for infestations. Otherwise the house plants can serve as a source to re-infest your Mangroves. ;)

This is no reason to get rid of your Mangroves. :)