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Illhaveanother
06/08/2014, 06:49 PM
Today I was at one of my somewhat lfs and I was talking to the owner about bringing me in some hammer corals . He said its really expensive to bring corals in and most people don't realize what owners go through and what the ocean goes through when they ask for these corals . He said sometimes the corals die of stress from shipping and he said that picking them up at the airport is a pain for him and stressful for the corals. Not to sound like a braggart but I knew all this already . Why I told you this is to get a point across. Why arnt there more people out there that sell to local stores ? I love the idea of having a local area seller because its less stress and cost and more enviormetally freindly then hacking corals off the reef . I realize everything has t come from the ocean at one time but once you bring in a few colonys for yourself to grow out and then constantly sell people won't need to get wild stuff that isn't as acclimated to captivity.

I know there are reef clubs and stuff but what about supplying stores .

I think I'm gonna try to do that for my local area to make the world a better place.

Do any of you understand or like the just of the idea I'm throwing out at you ?

muttley000
06/08/2014, 07:07 PM
Well, in a business money is number 1. I think you will be surprised what it costs in money and time to propagate. If this were easily done corals would be cheap :)

Xavibear
06/08/2014, 07:09 PM
Depends on where you live. Most of the lfs around here carry a good stock of corals. Local reef club has a good buyers forum & during monthly meetings people will usually bring frags for sale.

The store I use the most has a pretty large selection of corals and they also have a consignment section with corals that different customers bring in.

ReefingWerewolf
06/08/2014, 07:11 PM
5 out of the 6 threads you have started are about ethical questions. You need too chill lol, that or just keep it all in 1 thread.

Peter Eichler
06/08/2014, 08:10 PM
Today I was at one of my somewhat lfs and I was talking to the owner about bringing me in some hammer corals . He said its really expensive to bring corals in and most people don't realize what owners go through and what the ocean goes through when they ask for these corals . He said sometimes the corals die of stress from shipping and he said that picking them up at the airport is a pain for him and stressful for the corals. Not to sound like a braggart but I knew all this already . Why I told you this is to get a point across. Why arnt there more people out there that sell to local stores ? I love the idea of having a local area seller because its less stress and cost and more enviormetally freindly then hacking corals off the reef . I realize everything has t come from the ocean at one time but once you bring in a few colonys for yourself to grow out and then constantly sell people won't need to get wild stuff that isn't as acclimated to captivity.

I know there are reef clubs and stuff but what about supplying stores .

I think I'm gonna try to do that for my local area to make the world a better place.

Do any of you understand or like the just of the idea I'm throwing out at you ?

What you and your LFS don't seem to understand is that collecting the fish you and/or they have is far more damaging to reefs than collecting corals. Also, mortality rates for fish are probably far greater than for something like a euphylia. So, if you really want to make a difference, don't buy and encourage others to not buy wild fish, especially angels and fish that like to hide in coral heads.

That said, I'm all for captive propagation as it is certainly better than wild collection.

Illhaveanother
06/08/2014, 10:46 PM
I know it isn't easy to keep up with store demand . But if differnt people's corals are growing at differnt rates then there would be a steady flow of most species of corals. This is what I mean by community us all caring as a group to make the hobby more sustainable and to make better connections all over . It really is that hard to grow out and propigate most corals . It's just keeping up with demand . But like I said if we all did our part to help out .......

Illhaveanother
06/08/2014, 10:52 PM
Some community's having good "coral flow" - always avalible coral in circulation . but some are differnt than others. I wish the unestablished ones would adopt stronger community's . I guess it all starts with the reef clubs . Anyway xavibear is lucky to live in an area were they have a good coral flow , but the majority of places don't and well we all know the rest.

Illhaveanother
06/08/2014, 10:56 PM
Reefing werewolf , I would like to say that issues don't get better unless they are talked about among people so that they can be resolved. I would post them all in one but I think of them periodically most the time .

Illhaveanother
06/08/2014, 11:08 PM
Peter e. I somewhat agree with your remarks . I realize that mortality will always be "part of the game " . I realize its usually higher in fish but it can get better . I don't completely ban wild collection just unsustaiable areas of wc like philipenes and Indonesia - although baliis not terrible :/. Let me just say I don't want to offend you by this statement but you are wrong about one big thing. Wild collection of corals , especially slow growing Lps and sps is much more enviormetally unfriendly than buying wild caught fish . Why do you think laws are stricter for coral collection? (Even though there probably Not followed half the time. ) by taking the coral your taking away not only an organism ,but an enviorment and that will cripple not only fish but human populations . Keeping our coral on our reefs is very important and it is truly a resource that MUST be used not abused . Sure I admit I will still order a large wild coral colony here and there . But I frag that off and grow them out justifying my purpose and purchase.

Illhaveanother
06/08/2014, 11:11 PM
Let me just say I'm not attacking the fish trade I love SW and especially reef aquarium keeping and think it is the best hobby ever . I am just presenting info to help people get a better understanding on the impact , though not as bad as other industry's , reasons ect. Are hobby can make on the enviorment.

thenewguy997
06/09/2014, 02:34 AM
I think price would be an issue, stores would rather buy in bulk multiple species etc.

What you need is a big group of reefers, like a union, who grow and breed what they have and sell it to other locals, drive the no good lfs right out of business

The customer would get a healthy tank bred specimen from a group of long time reefers at a good price with a guarantee and no cheapo lfs cyanide caught fish sold to you with illnesses.

Illhaveanother
06/09/2014, 06:15 AM
Excuse me but lfs are one of the main sources that introduce new people into our hobby and keep it alive in our local areas! If you think they have cyinide fish ( not to common anymore) than dont buy from them!

Let me tell you a little story son. I live within walking distance of a local pet store that happens to sell aquatics. They may not be the best store around but there nice people . I like to walk over to there store and get little things like some supply's and live rock, inverts, and corals if they have them in stock. These people give me great bargains and have always been there to offer me advice on anything . I've bought reptiles , ducks , aquatics , and even my dog there. But they have one flaw , there fish . They have to manage a BUISNESS and have a crappy wholesaler called fishmert or somthing like that . Look it up. I RARELY by fish from that store because they always have sick stuff or something's going wrong with there systems . The people there love to trade with me though . And here's the way I see it . We need lfs and the more of our healthy captive livestock we can give to the average ( not terrible ) stores the better they will be . They will be happier and want more from us because the product is healthy and dosent die . Trust me I've done this . That store buys from me and orders less other stuff . Now of course I can only supply corals but if we had a larger community of people who bred fish and some inverts that would be great ! I also grow liverock. I help out as much as I can because it will make our stores and hobby more sustainable in the long run . If we all adopt this plan and ban the bad fish-stores and support the okay and great ones then our hobby will be for the better. Of course the store I mentioned still had to reach out and order things from there wholesaler . But not as much . There some things that we just have to get out of the ocean still sadly :(.

Anyway I don't support bad fishstores . There's another one near me who dosent take care of there fish at all. They have layers of crud on the bottoms of there tanks . There stuff is always sick and way to expensive. Bad coustmer service dirty store ect. Everything about that place is nasty and I never have and never will buy a SW organism from there or help them out because they flat out dont care and are terrible people . The first store mentioned cares by just isn't that smart. The 2nd store is just dumb and dosent give a dam about anything but money. Like I said I will never support a store like 2nd one ever and I don't think anyone else should . Stores like the 2nd one should be put out if BUISNESS !

Illhaveanother
06/09/2014, 06:26 AM
The first store mentioned gets my quality products and my buisness, and I get good exersises , reliable partnerships, $ , and the satisfaction that I've helped the store and our oceans. :)

We have a great relationship . We need more great relationships In this world !

billsreef
06/09/2014, 10:09 AM
They have to manage a BUISNESS and have a crappy wholesaler called fishmert or somthing like that .

Using a bad wholesaler is no justification for having bad fish, there are good wholesalers out there they could be buying from.

Illhaveanother
06/09/2014, 12:27 PM
Yes I know they could but , they feel they have a good supplier even thoug it's not the case. Like I mentioned there not the smartest around.

I even recommended alternative suppliers and they wouldn't listen so ya not the smartest.

Tiki God
06/09/2014, 02:09 PM
Peter e. I somewhat agree with your remarks . I realize that mortality will always be "part of the game " . I realize its usually higher in fish but it can get better . I don't completely ban wild collection just unsustaiable areas of wc like philipenes and Indonesia - although baliis not terrible :/. Let me just say I don't want to offend you by this statement but you are wrong about one big thing. Wild collection of corals , especially slow growing Lps and sps is much more enviormetally unfriendly than buying wild caught fish . Why do you think laws are stricter for coral collection? (Even though there probably Not followed half the time. ) by taking the coral your taking away not only an organism ,but an enviorment and that will cripple not only fish but human populations . Keeping our coral on our reefs is very important and it is truly a resource that MUST be used not abused . Sure I admit I will still order a large wild coral colony here and there . But I frag that off and grow them out justifying my purpose and purchase.

Just a few thoughts, you realize a HUGE amount of the fish we keep come from Indonesia, right? If we ban that, then common fishes prices will skyrocket. A fish might run 20-50$ now, but with a large supply area gone, they become more rare in the hobby. (there ARE other places to keep supplying fish, but you get my point)

Collecting. It's only unsustainable if you look at it in one way. Right now what's happening is collectors realize a rare fish will make big $, so they go out and collect as many as possible without thinking long term. Population drops and drops and drops until it's not as common or even extinct in a certain region of the world. But if you showed them how to collect responsibly, by implementing quotas, and enforcing it with harsh fines, then it could be sustainable.

--

Also, you just said it's wrong to take coral from a reef, but justified your purchase by saying you'll cut it up and make more of it? That coral is now gone from the reef, the frags you grow out don't go back to that reef. Sure, it lessens immediate impact on a reef, but it's the general principle I'm getting at.

Personally, I don't see why we don't just take frags. Why not send collectors out immediately after a storm and pick up the frags lying on the ocean floor? They will die on the sand with a rapid change in lighting, flow, and no where to encrust on. Buying large colonies is EXTREMELY unethical IMO. Just do a simple Google search and many pictures of sand beds LITTERED with natures "frags" come up. Many of those won't come back after that.

One last thing, take the coral Gerardia sp. (NOT an aquarium coral! :lmao: ) A study found a colony that is over 2500 years old! So what you are saying is you'd pay money to have a coral older than the United States, than Europe, than most of modern human civilization for that matter, out of the wild when you could pay 20$ for that same animal, just much smaller? Given the ideal conditions and pampering we love to give our corals and fish, they tend to (IMO) grow much faster in tanks than in the wild. You're single zoanthid polyp, or 3" acro frag will grow plenty in a few years. I NEVER buy large corals taken from a reef. Frags FTW! :thumbsup:

Tiki God
06/09/2014, 02:25 PM
Ok maybe that was more than "a few" thoughts :lmao:

leveldrummer
06/09/2014, 02:30 PM
Yes I know they could but , they feel they have a good supplier even thoug it's not the case. Like I mentioned there not the smartest around.

I even recommended alternative suppliers and they wouldn't listen so ya not the smartest.

Maybe they just dont trust the word of some random stranger that walks to their fish store all the time and starts preaching about morality of fish keeping...

If you can do a better job then them, open a store and use your good suppliers, and put them out of business. or as you recommended yourself, stop shopping there.

Tiki God
06/09/2014, 02:33 PM
OR, we can ease his soul by having him watch this (which by the way is freaking cool! Artificial reef? A+!):

http://www.theyucatantimes.com/2014/06/worlds-largest-artificial-reef-is-being-built-in-quintana-roo/

Illhaveanother
06/09/2014, 05:35 PM
I'm not saying its terrible to purchase large wild or especially maricultured colonys I'm just wondering why we don't produce more good sized captive stuff . We really should help our lfs out as long as there average . In my case I guess I jus can't completey explain my relationship with those people. I just wish more people in more community's would step up and help make there local stores and clubs better with the stuff the have instead of having to keep taking from the ocean. Like the one guy said use what they have .

Illhaveanother
06/09/2014, 05:39 PM
Level drummer I never said I wanted to stop shopping at the first store mentioned. I don't have many really solid suppliers I was just reccommending ones that I've heard good things about from multiple other stores. And I'm not a random stranger to them. Although I admit I realize I'm annoying. Btw love that profile pic .

Illhaveanother
06/09/2014, 05:54 PM
But if you showed them how to collect responsibly, by implementing quotas, and enforcing it with harsh fines, then it could be sustainable.

--

:

Hahaha. I watched a documentary about Americans who taught sustainable catch methods to people in Bali. And it made things a little better but still not great. The reason I laughed at first was because it dosent take a genius to realize if you take to much of somthing without letting it breed it will eventually not exisist ( the fisherman). I believe that quotas are out there and so is the so called law enforcement . But things are so lose in that part of the world that officers could be paid off much easier , laws arnt enforced like they should be to begin with and ultimately if a poor fishermen can make more money by catching more fish in the right now despite the long run effects or laws in place they'll do it! Just like was mentioned earlier there's such a large demand of fish from this area that to them it wouldn't make sense to not catch as many as they want.

Timfish
06/09/2014, 06:53 PM
. . . I know there are reef clubs and stuff but what about supplying stores . . .

I don't know how well developed the local reef club is in your area (you should check it out) or if in fact there is one but here in Austin this is already being done. And this isn't a new development, although there is a much larger selsction now, when I worked in a local LFS in the mid 90's not only were corals brought in but one local aquarist was raising clownfish the LFS was selling. Currently there is so much produced if one takes the effort to ask around a very nice reef tank could be stocked with freebies.

Illhaveanother
06/09/2014, 08:29 PM
Ya reef tanks don't have to be expensive I agree .

leveldrummer
06/09/2014, 08:34 PM
Why don't local reefers supply local fish stores? Most stores in my area won't pay very much if they will even pay anything, they get corals much cheaper from suppliers the. What hobbyists expect to sell them for.

Tiki God
06/09/2014, 09:49 PM
Hahaha. I watched a documentary about Americans who taught sustainable catch methods to people in Bali. And it made things a little better but still not great. The reason I laughed at first was because it dosent take a genius to realize if you take to much of somthing without letting it breed it will eventually not exisist ( the fisherman) Thus my point in stating you need a sustainable method. . I believe that quotas are out there and so is the so called law enforcement . But things are so lose in that part of the world that officers could be paid off much easier , laws arnt enforced like they should be to begin with I think that's a bit of a stereotype, but an officer could lose his job for being bribed. and ultimately if a poor fishermen can make more money by catching more fish in the right now despite the long run effects or laws in place they'll do it! Just like was mentioned earlier there's such a large demand of fish from this area that to them it wouldn't make sense to not catch as many as they want.It will when someone shows them what happens when there isn't breeding stock left

Oh, and harsh. Fines. :fun2:

Illhaveanother
06/10/2014, 10:26 AM
People can show them as much as they want but as long as there situation stays the same as far as there finaceial state I believe that they will still remain the same person. There have been multiple studies done that show people would rather die than change . People who couldn't eat certain items that love them , have show most the time that they eat the thing they love and hurt there health conditions fathers than stop eating it and survive.
I believe the same applies with these people. Not matter how much you preach, teach and help there mind sets are differnt and there minds are set.

Illhaveanother
06/10/2014, 10:28 AM
However if we were to ban there "product " to a degree until they are forced to do things the right way , and have there products certified than that might be a cause for them to care .

Of course there are some really good individuals , and some REALLY bad individuals , but I think the majority are just like I stated in earlier posts.

Tiki God
06/10/2014, 10:30 AM
Faith in humanity gone.

That's just sad that people would rather die than change. But you have to remember they say that when they are comfortable, if it came down to it, people would change if they were faced with death.

alton
06/15/2014, 04:34 PM
Why don't local reefers supply local fish stores? Most stores in my area won't pay very much if they will even pay anything, they get corals much cheaper from suppliers the. What hobbyists expect to sell them for.

Here in San Antonio we get 50% of the retail price of the coral