PBT with persistent ICH

[Giovanni]

I know PBTs are ich magnets. I got one and after three weeks in QT it developed ich. I did the tank transfer treatment and on the 5th transfer placed him back in QT. Five days in QT the second time he developed ich again. I used buckets which were cleaned, disinfected and left dry for 2 days. No equipment but an air stone which was replaced with brand new every transfer. Water was from a fresh mix in a tank that has never had fish. I work in surgery so I am familiar with cross contamination and it did not happen. Anyone have any suggestion. Maybe more frequent and more total transfers?

[HPark]

Not to ask the obvious, but you cleaned and disinfected the QT tank between when the fish showed symptoms and when you placed it back in after TT, correct?

I've only TT'd a couple of fish but I generally empty every two days for 14-16 days just to be safe. Also relieves any stress I have about ammonia.

[Giovanni]

Brand new QT and water pump. Ammonia is not a problem.

[snorvich]

So you did 3x3x3x3x3 where the last transfer was into the new QT? And the maximum number of hours for a given transfer cycle was 72 hours?

[Giovanni]

Yes. Transfers at 06:00.

[Giovanni]

one thing I have noticed is that this fish eats even his own poo. He does not leave anything on the bottom of his container. I wonder if he could have consumed some food or waist with the tomont stage attached which he later consumed again in a cycle that carried it to every transfer container?

[snorvich]

The areas I always focus on as a potential concern are:
+number of hours in a given transfer cycle must be less than 72
+water contamination across cycles (such as not having a completely dry tank)
+using "used" water for any cycle

[Giovanni]

In the past I have done 2x2x2x2x2x2 with success but decided to go with the 3x3x3x3x3.

I started another transfer and have done 3x3x3x2.

I think I will make it 3x3x3x2x2x2x2 just to be sure.

[snorvich]

In the past I have done 2x2x2x2x2x2 with success but decided to go with the 3x3x3x3x3.

I started another transfer and have done 3x3x3x2.

I think I will make it 3x3x3x2x2x2x2 just to be sure.

Sounds good. Report back if you get a chance.

[Giovanni]

Here is a log of my treatment to date. I have to put every thing down or I forget. I have also been treating multiple fish with TT and QT so I keep the log so I can see any trends. Some of my QT fish now have tachypnea so I am concerned one of my TT fish I though was clean has now brought ich to the QT. I may have to resort to copper. :headwallblue:

-5/12/14 1850 Transferred from QT tank to 5 gallon bucket with air stone and new NAH2O using net.
-5/15/14 0600 transfer done to clean bucket with fresh NaH2O, new air stone, with bag method (holes in corners).
-5/18/14 1030 transfer done to clean bucket with fresh NaH2O, new air stone, with bag method (holes in corners).
fish not eating. no sign of ich.
5/20/14 feeding seaweed packs and eating well. no sign of ich.
-5/21/14 0600 transferred to clean bucket with fresh NaH2O, new air stone, with bag method (holes in corners).
-5/24/14 1500 transfered to QT (Brand new tank with fresh NaH2O and new pump for circulation.

5/27/14 fish continues to have ich

Planed Transfer Dates 5/31, 6/02, 6/05, 6/08, 6/11, 6/14, 6/17, 6/20, 6/23, 6/26 to clean QT holding tank for obs.

-5/31 0700 PBT from QT tank to clean 5 bucket with new air stone and fresh NAH2O.
-6/02 0600 PBT Transfer to clean 5 gallon bucket with new air stone and fresh NAH2O
-6/05 0600 PBT Transfer to clean 5 gallon bucket with new air stone and fresh NAH2O
6/06 fish looks like it is healing from multiple ich lesions on sides.
6/07 lesions continue to improve
-6/08 0600 Transfer to clean 5 gallon bucket with new air stone and fresh NAH2O
-6/10 0600 Transfer to clean 5 gallon bucket with new air stone and fresh NAH2O
-6/11 1400 Transfer to clean 5 gallon bucket with new air stone and fresh NAH2O
6/12 2140 fish water has what I have come to think is an ich smell.
-6/13 0700 Transfer to clean 5 gallon bucket with new air stone and fresh NAH2O. no visible ich.
-6/15 0900 Transfer to clean 5 gallon bucket with new air stone and fresh NAH2O. Smell almost gone in old water.no visible ich.
-6/17 0900 Transfer to clean 5 gallon bucket with new air stone and fresh NAH2O. smell gone. no visible ich.

[Giovanni]

I originally posted I had transferred this fish at 06:00 every time the first treatment. After review of my log I was mistaken. Could this have been the culprit on the first treatment?

I should be good with this fish at this point in treatment, correct?

[Deinonych]

I originally posted I had transferred this fish at 06:00 every time the first treatment. After review of my log I was mistaken. Could this have been the culprit on the first treatment?

I should be good with this fish at this point in treatment, correct?

It's possible that the late transfer was the cause of failure the first time. IMO, you should be good to go with this fish, but I would monitor for a few weeks just in case. Then again, I'm super paranoid. :)

[Spar]

I originally posted I had transferred this fish at 06:00 every time the first treatment. After review of my log I was mistaken. Could this have been the culprit on the first treatment?

I should be good with this fish at this point in treatment, correct?

agreed with Deinonych; in the first TTM, that 4th transfer was 81 hours later, which means that tomites could have been released from the cysts and attached to the fish by then. this generally doesn't happen as the 3rd transfer 'should' be enough, with the 4th as 'just in case'. but hence why we do a 4th.

that latest TTM was spot-on. all were less than 72 hours and lasted 12 days. keep us updated!

curious - hadn't seen anyone refer to an "ich smell" before! who knows though, maybe you are on to something :beer:

[Giovanni]

This is the second fish with ich i have noticed the smell. The last one was eat up with ich. Could be an odor the fish makes in response to any kind of infection. Who knows but it is pungent.

[Giovanni]

I got this fish 4/14 and have seen no other sign of disease but ich.

After this latest treatment as follows, who would be afraid to SKIP QT put him in the DT in two more day. I am concerned may have a fish with ICH in the QT at the moment.


-5/31 0700 PBT from QT tank to clean 5 bucket with new air stone and fresh NAH2O.
-6/02 0600 PBT Transfer to clean 5 gallon bucket with new air stone and fresh NAH2O
-6/05 0600 PBT Transfer to clean 5 gallon bucket with new air stone and fresh NAH2O
*6/06 fish looks like it is healing from multiple ich lesions on sides.
*6/07 lesions continue to improve
-6/08 0600 Transfer to clean 5 gallon bucket with new air stone and fresh NAH2O
-6/10 0600 Transfer to clean 5 gallon bucket with new air stone and fresh NAH2O
-6/11 1400 Transfer to clean 5 gallon bucket with new air stone and fresh NAH2O
*6/12 2140 fish water has what I have come to think is an ich smell.
-6/13 0700 Transfer to clean 5 gallon bucket with new air stone and fresh NAH2O. no visible ich.
-6/15 0900 Transfer to clean 5 gallon bucket with new air stone and fresh NAH2O. Smell almost gone in old water.no visible ich.
-6/17 0900 Transfer to clean 5 gallon bucket with new air stone and fresh NAH2O. smell gone. no visible ich.
-6/19 1000 Transfer to clean 5 gallon bucket with new air stone and fresh NAH2O. smell gone. no visible ich.
-6/21 1300 Transfer to clean 5 gallon bucket with new air stone and fresh NAH2O. smell gone. no visible ich.
-6/23 0800 Transfer to clean 5 gallon bucket with new air stone and fresh NAH2O. smell gone. no visible ich.

[Spar]

you've had the fish long enough to see if Brook, Velvet or Flukes would be an issue, so I agree with you that at this point Ich was the only remaining concern (within reason anyway). personally, if I were in your shoes and was 100% confident that my procedures were spot-on with no cross-contamination of equipment and did a good job cleaning and drying the prior-used equipment, I would be comfortable moving my fish straight from the TTM tank to the DT.

looks like so much work when you right it up chronologically like that! :) all worth it in the end!

[Giovanni]

Anyone say don't do it!!

[Giovanni]

Hard to believe more folks have not chimed in here!

[Spar]

you'd hear from people if they disagreed with your assessment, IMO.

[Giovanni]

Transfer PBT to DT. He looked great then got beat up and started looking like he had ich within an hour.

[Spar]

try to snap some pictures.

who beat him up?

[Giovanni]

My desjarni sailfin is chasing him around. I think the PBT got into some SPS or rock running. Even my docile skunk clowns were after him. They are in a 330 so I am not to worried about them settling in. I am just paranoid. I don't think there is any way ich can pop up that quick.

[Spar]

My desjarni sailfin is chasing him around. I think the PBT got into some SPS or rock running. Even my docile skunk clowns were after him. They are in a 330 so I am not to worried about them settling in. I am just paranoid. I don't think there is any way ich can pop up that quick.

agreed. when you see Ich, it is just the exit wounds from the parasites popping out of the skin anyway. and normally they do that in the middle of the night. I don't think that sudden stress would cause it.

i am interested to hear/see what it is though.

[jthomps123]

Updates?

[Giovanni]

No Signs or symptoms of ich to this point.

[Giovanni]

Today the fish shows an ich infection! :headwally:

Trapped him from DT and placed in QT again. Now my DT has ICH again. :headwally::headwally::headwally::headwally::headwally:

[Deinonych]

Today the fish shows an ich infection! :headwally:

Trapped him from DT and placed in QT again. Now my DT has ICH again. :headwally::headwally::headwally::headwally::headwally:

Your DT may have had ich prior to the PBT going in. I don't see how the PBT could have been infected after going through TT. Any other fish in the DT showing symptoms?

[Spar]

I was thinking what Chris said also. Really comes down to one of a few possibilities:
(1) Ich already was in DT, so got reinfected upon moving him over
(2) Something is wrong with the TTM procedures
(3) You got really really really unlucky and a Tomite formed on the fish itself...

Snap some pictures of the fish if you can.

[Giovanni]

The only thing I can think of is that a fish that was QTed but not treated had ich with no visible symptoms. I had several fish that I was QTing that when in the tank after the PBT. To this point no other fish have visible symptoms. The PBT on showed shots and no other signs or symptoms of ich.

I placed the PBT back in for TT and today he has no spots I can see or photograph. The spots were tinny much smaller than usual so maybe it was something else eliciting those mucus spot that look like ich.

[Giovanni]

Just a little update. My DT was and is infected with ich. It shows no sign endless I put the PBT in. Once the PBT or achilles go in, the is a brake out. When the tangs are removed, the ich disappears. I can cure the tangs, put them in QT for a month, and then put them back in the DT and voila, the ich shows up again.

I must have had a fish that never showed ich in QT come in as a carrier. I began treating my DT on 08/09/2014 by removing and treating my achilles and PBT tangs with the transfer method.

[HumbleFish]

I think your PBT/Achilles are the only ones showing visible symptoms due to their thin mucous coats. With the other fish, ich just comes and goes inside their gills - out of sight.

[Giovanni]

I think your PBT/Achilles are the only ones showing visible symptoms due to their thin mucous coats. With the other fish, ich just comes and goes inside their gills - out of sight.

You are correct. I am writing an article about my experience and a complete method for curing ich on individual fish and DT of ich. another point to note is that when the tangs were introduced, they bread the ich and caused a visible out brake in the other fish.

[HumbleFish]

You are correct. I am writing an article about my experience and a complete method for curing ich on individual fish and DT of ich. another point to note is that when the tangs were introduced, they bread the ich and caused a visible out brake in the other fish.

The presence of the tangs helped feed the parasites, increasing their overall concentration and this overwhelmed your other fish. You are lucky there were no casualties.

[Giovanni]

I think that is what I was just saying. LOL

[wooden_reefer]

Anyone say don't do it!!

I will always anticipate failure to eradicate ich and thus ich infestation in dt.

I will always plan to have to combat ich in dt and hence I always will have robustly cycled medium to support all my fish during qt and waiting for the dt to fallow out. This I do at least for the first six months after the last addition to dt.

[ca1ore]

I must have had a fish that never showed ich in QT come in as a carrier.

Entirely probable! I think keeping a display ich free is a function of a good QT protocol AND a bit of good luck. Even if you QT all fish for 12 weeks, as I do, but don't treat prophylactically, as I don't, one cannot guarantee no ich.