Coralife Salt Mix Alk?

[dirtycontour]

I'm in the market for a salt mix with a lower alkalinity than IO. I emailed Coralife and this was part of their reply:
Coralife salt has a bicarbonate alkalinity of 130-140 mg/kg or 7.2-7.8 dKH.


Is there a difference between bicarbonate alkalinity and total alkalinity? If so, does anyone know the total alkalinity of Coralife mixed at 1.026 SG?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Odd wording. The correct term is carbonate alkalinity, and while that does differ from total alkalinity (by not counting anything except carbonate and bicarbonate, so not borate, in particular), they probably do not intend it that way. Even so, unless they add excessive borate, the difference is minor. :)

[bertoni]

I agree that the wording is strange. I'd just expect the dKH to measure somewhere in the range they gave.

[dirtycontour]

Thanks guys!

[bertoni]

You're welcome!

[tmz]

I don't think 7.2 to 7.8 toal alkainity (typically carbonate alkainity is about 96% of total alkainity) is correct for 1.026. Ive used Coral Life for years;I believe it's higher :high 8's or low 9's but haven't tested newly mixed water in a long time.I'll test it and let you know what I find.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, they didn't say what salinity that was for.

That said, hopefully they didn't truly mean alkalinity from bicarbonate only, which is not an interpretable bit of information for most reefers. :)

[dirtycontour]

FWIW, they didn't say what salinity that was for.

I just reviewed my original email I sent and I did not specify I wanted to know the alk value at 1.026 SG:hmm3:

I copied this from a retailer:
Specific Gravity: 1.021-1.023
pH: 8.2 to 8.3
Calcium: 390 to 410 ppm
Magnesium: 1,110 to 1,250 ppm

So I imagine the Alk they gave me was for 1.021-1.023

[dirtycontour]

I'll test it and let you know what I find.

This would be greatly appreciated!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So that pushes the value from 7.5 dKH to 9 dKH at 35 ppt, which matches Tom's expectation. :)

[dirtycontour]

So that pushes the value from 7.5 dKH to 9 dKH at 35 ppt, which matches Tom's expectation. :)

35/x=30.5/7.8
x=8.95
:thumbsup:

[tmz]

At 1.026,I got:

alk 170ppm( hanah checker) 170 x.056 = 9.5 dkh divided by 2.8=3.4 meq/l

Magnesium( Salifert test kit) 1340ppm

Calcium (Salifert test kit) 450ppm.

[dirtycontour]

At 1.026,I got:

alk 170ppm( hanah checker) 170 x.056 = 9.5 dkh divided by 2.8=3.4 meq/l

Magnesium( Salifert test kit) 1340ppm

Calcium (Salifert test kit) 450ppm.

Thank you for your effort. I just ordered a box of Coralife.

[tmz]

You are welcome . I've used it for about 10years. Good luck.

[dirtycontour]

Another question about Coralife...
Currently, I mix up a batch of IO in a 32 gallon Brute with an old Mag5 pump overnight and let it sit for a month or so without aeration. From what I've read that wouldn't be a good idea with Coralife because of the added organics(not sure what that means)? So, the plan is to just have a Brute full of RO/DI and mix up a five gallon bucket right before a WC. Would it be okay if I only mixed the five gallon bucket for an hour before using it for a WC?

[tmz]

It's ok to keep Coralife or any salt with organics in it for a very long time. I keep mine continously, adding more as I use it and arunning a tiny powerhead . It needs some water movement as bacterial may act on the organics and deplete the oxygen in he storage vessel.

[dirtycontour]

I was trying to avoid keeping a powerhead in the Brute. I'll have to figure out a way to sneak an extension cord into my "fish closet". Living in an apartment, I'm limited on what I can do without ticking the wife off. A cord running across the living carpet won't fly.

[Narwhal82]

There are no organics in Coralife salt.

The addition of vitamins to salts ended a long time ago when that fad ended.

Andy

[tmz]

There are no organics in Coralife salt.


Yes, there certainly are. Have you mixed any lately? They're obvious to the eye. Coralife started adding them several years ago. Some salts incuding Coralife add them and advertise them as vitamins and/or organics to bind free metals .

Current product description:

<table cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" border="0"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td>* </td> <td> Scientific-grade marine aquarium salt replicates natural seawater </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" border="0"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td> * </td> <td> Highly soluble phosphate- and nitrate-free marine aquarium salt </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
<table cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" border="0"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td> * </td> <td> Contains all essential major and trace elements for aquarium health </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/images/logo-coralife-2011.jpg?Lo0P=e53c379c81da9932b4236d6b28695c9b4062Replicate natural seawater chemistry with scientific-grade marine aquarium salt. Coralife Marine Salt is formulated with ingredients of the highest quality with optimal levels of calcium and magnesium. Unsurpassed in purity, quality and performance, this high grade synthetic salt mix contains all essential major and trace elements to help inhabitants of saltwater and marine reef aquariums flourish. Rich in vitamins, this fast-dissolving formula provides enriched seawater environment AND crystal clear water. Phosphate and nitrate-free. 200 gallon box contains four 50 gallon mix bags.
The Coralife Marine Salt Mix Solution
Dissolving 1/2 cup of Coralife Marine Salt in one gallon of purified 78°F water will yield a solution with the following properties:
Specific Gravity: 1.021-1.023
pH: 8.2 to 8.3
Calcium: 390 to 410 ppm
Magnesium: 1,110 to 1.250 ppm

[Narwhal82]

No there aren't.

I work in R&D for Central Aquatics and salt is in my area of responsibility. I know exactly what is in all the salts and there are no organics. Vitamins were removed back in 2009 when the salt formulations were reformulated. That copy is old.

There are no organic components in any Central Aquatics brand salts (Oceanic, Kent, or Coralife).


Even when the vitamins were in the salt you could not see them with your eye. You are talking about a few water soluble vitamins that were in the 10-20 ppb range of concentration.
Andy

[Narwhal82]

It was purely a marketing gimmick and ended when people started moving toward purer salts with less gimmicks like vitamins and listing values for trace elements that were completely unmanufacturable.

[bertoni]

I agree that the vitamins were a marketing gimmick. The description on drsfostersmith.com mentions vitamins, but the Coralife web site doesn't, as far as I could see:

http://www.coralifeproducts.com/product/marine-salt/

They don't have much of a description, though. I wonder what's on the label.

[Narwhal82]

I went and checked a bucket in the lab and there is no mention of vitamins on it. All the bags and box labels match the bucket copy.

I can't say about independent retailers though. They often take years to update copy if they ever do.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It would seem appropriate to make sure your retailers display the correct description of the product.

You know, false advertising and such. :(

Of course, something that was once correct is at least a lot better than what many companies advertise (Seachem and Brightwell, for example) which advertise things which could never have been correct. :(

[Narwhal82]

Manufacturers have very little control over what retailers post or say or charge for their products.

There is a little bit more control with vendors that buy direct from the manufacturer. But the vast majority (by numbers, not dollars) buy from distributors and have very little direct contact with the manufacturer.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Did you ever alert them that the change was made? Presumably they get the copy from you to begin with.

In fact, let's experiment. I'll write to Dr Foster and Smith, suggest they are false advertising, and see what happens. :D

[tmz]

Can you tell me what the brownish stringy particulate material is that floats around in it after mixing? I first noticed it around the time of the reformulation you noted .Thought it was organics. If not what is it?

[tmz]

I also recall reading on the coralife site IIRC within the last year or so a product description of organic additions not touted as vitamins but rather as organics to bind free metals.

Really , a "marketting gimmick". Not a great way to build customer trust. I'm very disappointed as a long term user of the product if the infor mation put forth here is true .

There are several other current product descriptions touting vitamins in Coralife Salt out there on different internet sales sites . Guess they didn't get a new product description either. Wonder why? Consumers should be able to know what it is they are buying and manufacture's should be clear and honest not gimmicky in their descriptions. Well now that you know for sure false advertising is occuring ,what are you doing to fix it?
It's emabarassing to be blindsided by someone claming to be a representative of a manufacturer and told the published product information is wrong after counting on it for many years about ten , several hundred buckets worth.

Still need to know what the brown stuff is,btw.

[Narwhal82]

I am sure if you contact Fosters and Smith and let them know the copy needs updating they will do it. Fosters and Smith regularly forwards us product questions for clarifying and we answer them as quickly as possible. They don't usually come to me unless the Customer Service/Tech and Warranty people don't know the answer but I have seen them from time to time. They did update the picture with the new label so I am sure they have seen the label changes. The copy is probably 10 years old.

The vitamin components cause no harm (and no benefit either). Please keep in mind that if you make a salt without X ingredient and your competitors start putting X ingredient in their salt (even though it doesn't do any good) and people start buying their salt instead of yours because of that, you will either start putting X ingredient in your salt or you will stop making salt. Hobbyist desires and business realities don't always meet. Marketing gimmicks are tools of the trade and I could point out a hundred of them from any number of manufacturers at any time.

Any supplier that carries the salt has seen the new labels since 2010 at the latest. We don't have control over how and when they update their websites. Manufacturers don't necessarily even know who carries their products when the dealers are buying from an independent distributor.

Disodium EDTA used to be in Coralife salt a long long time ago. It wasn't in the last revision before I revised it in 2009 so I can't say how far back it was discontinued.

As far as the brown stuff I don't really know for sure what it is. We have tried analyzing it in the past (especially with Kent Marine salt which was turning storage vat walls brown) and the ICP testing results came back 99% calcium carbonate. Which as we all know is not normally brown.

Whatever it is, it seems to be related to the local water chemistry of the consumer. Even within the same batch, it appears with some consumers and not others and it's been very difficult to replicate in the lab.

Andy

[reefwars]

I go through hundreds of batches of corallife salt commercially , every single batch has a foamy film ..........one look at This stuff and it screams some type of organic makeup.

[Narwhal82]

Have you ever tried Kent or Oceanic salt and seen the same thing?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As far as the brown stuff I don't really know for sure what it is. We have tried analyzing it in the past (especially with Kent Marine salt which was turning storage vat walls brown) and the ICP testing results came back 99% calcium carbonate. Which as we all know is not normally brown.

FWIW, the calcium carbonate that forms where I dose limewater to my sump turns brown, and I expect it is from things like iron getting onto it.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/rhf/images/Figure_4.jpg

[Narwhal82]

Iron was my first thought too. But the lab test came back negative for iron (below the LOD for the ICP). I had them specifically look for iron.

But that was only one example and it's very possible that multiple different types of contaminants could cause the same coloration.

Andy

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It also likely doesn't take much to provide discoloration.

[kaskiles]

Hey Andy,
What's the secret Kent Tech M ingredient that kills Bryopsis? I assume you guys have tried analyzing for that too?

[Narwhal82]

I will never tell.

I will tell you that what we put into it is exactly what is on the bottle. Magnesium sulfate, Magnesium chloride, and water. There is no magic secret ingredient.

Andy

[hilgert]

Narwhal82, where on the Coralife site can I find actual specs? Specifically, when mixed to 35ppt, what are the specs for Alk, Ca and Mg? Given that retailers don't update their sites (which we all seem to agree on), I'm curious how someone would get the most current information. On the Coralife site I can click and get a high-res pretty picture of a colorful bag, but nothing on the bag (in the picture) indicates specs for The Big Three.

I currently use Red Sea Coral Pro, and on their bucket they state those specs clearly on the front (and I test each new bucket before using it), as well as on the back in a table for different salinity levels. Given the cost I'd certainly consider switching to Coralife (given some of the good things I've just read in other threads).

As you are the the "Master of Salt" for Central Aquatics, could you PM me specs, or a link to such, or post here?

[Narwhal82]

Responded via PM.

[hilgert]

With Andy's (Narwhal82) permission (thank you Andy), I am posting his response to my PM:

pH, Calcium, and Magnesium specs are on the package label.

@ S.G. 1.021-1.023 the numbers will be roughly:
pH 8.2-8.32
Calcium 390-410 ppm
Magnesium 1110-1250 ppm
dKH will be between 7-8 dKH but this is something that is really hard to nail down as how you mix the salt, how long it sits, and how it is stored can really have a dramatic effect on dKH.

Adding the salt and then the water, exposing the salt to high levels of moisture, etc... can cause the bicarbonate to react with the calcium chloride and form insoluble calcium carbonate which will lower the KH value.

Coralife salt is formulated to be as close to NSW as possible. It does not have extra calcium, magnesium, strontium formulated into it. It is not a good salt to use if you use water changes to raise your calcium and magnesium levels.

It is a good salt if you use additives to maintain your calcium and magnesium levels generally and want an economical salt as close to NSW as possible.



I could see, if I wanted to switch from Red Sea Coral Pro salt (which I can actually buy locally for less than I can get it online), that I would have to increase my Alk, Ca and Mg additions. As I do automated daily 1% water changes this could be done very slowly by dialing up my Alk and Ca additions ever so slightly over time. Something to consider...interested if anyone else has switched from RSCP to Coralife, or vice-versa.

[kaskiles]

Coralife salt is formulated to be as close to NSW as possible. It does not have extra calcium, magnesium, strontium formulated into it. It is not a good salt to use if you use water changes to raise your calcium and magnesium levels.

Are either of the other Central Aquatic salts, Kent or Oceanic, formulated to potentially be used to raise our Calcium, Magnesium or Alkalinity levels? I seem to remember the Oceanic salt to have unusually high Calcium and Magnesium levels, with a normal (maybe) Alkalinity. But I don't see the Oceanic salt too often anymore...

[tmz]

Have you ever tried Kent or Oceanic salt and seen the same thing?
I have only used Coralife salt except for two bucketts of Reef Crystals years ago;never saw a need to change . Dosing is built around the salt mix levels. I prefer stability in my aquariums. I don't care a lot about organic additions but just like to know what I'm adding . It's been hard to figure that out with inaccurate product descriptions out there.

[dirtycontour]

In fact, let's experiment. I'll write to Dr Foster and Smith, suggest they are false advertising, and see what happens. :D

I am curious to see their response. Please post.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I posted it as a "review" of the product, but it has not shown up yet.

[Narwhal82]

Kent and Oceanic salt have higher than normal calcium and magnesium levels intentionally.

This is the main point of difference between standard sea salts and "reef" sea salts. These salts can be used to raise depleted calcium and magnesium levels by doing a water change.

This is pretty much an industry standard and you can find similar versions among various manufacturers that offer multiple brands of salt.

Coralife is formulated to be as close to NSW as possible. If your calcium and magnesium levels were already below NSW levels you would not be able to get them up to normal with Coralife salt through partial water changes. But you could with Kent or Oceanic. If your calcium and magnesium levels were already good, using Coralife salt will maintain them there and not raise them artificially high. Although the amount that Kent or Oceanic would raise them would be highly dependent on how much water you were changing at a shot.

Andy

[dirtycontour]

I wonder what's on the label.
http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y430/dirtycontour/007_zps34a37d8c.jpg?t=1404143453

http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y430/dirtycontour/0072_zps0c2bf74b.jpg?t=1404143558

[bertoni]

Thanks for the picture! I don't see any mention of organics.

[dirtycontour]

I talked to a representative at Coralife and he said they are not currently adding any extra organics/vitamins to the salt. He made it clear that this is not set in stone and could change in the future.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Did you miss that two posts above was the Coralife salt guy who makes it?

[dirtycontour]

Did you miss that two posts above was the Coralife salt guy who makes it?

I'm a bit skeptical about the interwebs..
I wanted to contact Coralife myself.
No offense Narwhal.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Fair enough.

Happy Reefing. :)

[tmz]

The label doesn't mention alkainity either as we discussed earlier in the thread. They used to include a sheet with more information in the package. I guess that went out along with the free T shirts and the organics. It should be easier to get product information without dechipherring conflicting product descriptions currently in use.

[hilgert]

It should be easier to get product information without dechipherring conflicting product descriptions currently in use.

At least they should put specs on their web site (I can find no reference to specs on the Central Aquatics site) where reefers who wished to do so could look it up themselves.