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View Full Version : Do I need brace or can it be rimless?


mlcjohnson16
06/20/2014, 01:03 AM
Hey all - my first post here... a long-time lurker.

I'm planning on building my own aquarium due to the fact that I can't find many aquariums of the right size that don't already come pre-drilled or have tempered glass on the bottom.

It is approximately 92 gallons and the dimensions are 48"x21"x21"

I will be using 1/2" glass on the bottom - and was thinking of 3/8" on the sides (could do 1/2" - not sure yet)

The tank will have 3 ea 2.5" holes on the bottom for a an overflow centered on the back wall each hole will be 2.5" from the edge and 2.5" from each other for in order to place 1.5" bulkheads for the Herbie overflow and a return.

My question is whether or not I need to Eurobrace the tank? (If so - do I just need the 2 48"x2"braces that will run along the sides - or do I need 4 all the way around the rim)

Can I forego the bracing if I use thicker glass (1/2"?)

I will have a shallow sandbed and liverock (can't remember the weight I currently have in my 55 gallon that is being upgraded)

Thanks much! jj

uncleof6
06/20/2014, 12:23 PM
1/2" (12mm) with a full euro-brace. 9mm (3/8") is too thin for a tank this size, brace or otherwise. This tank size is almost borderline, but not quite, with 10.5mm glass being minimum, for using full metal bracing.

Rimless would require 15mm glass (5/8" nominal,) minimum. For a first time build, don't. Have the tank built by a professional, as in the end, the cost will be less, and you won't have to worry as much about it failing catasrophically.

Pife
06/20/2014, 02:25 PM
Those sizes are close to a 120 gallon.

woodnaquanut
06/20/2014, 05:01 PM
There's a banner ad here at RC about the Mr. Aqua 65G. frameless at Marine Depot. It has 10mm glass. Of course it's only 17.5" deep.

Reef or Die
06/21/2014, 07:39 AM
I recently had a rimless tank made . It is 47 x 24 x 21 with a corner glass overflow. Tank was made with 1/2 starphire . Approx 105 gallon

This tank does not have any euro bracing at all.
Would you guys feel confident with this setup. I'm not familiar with safety factors and stuff so I would like your opinions.

The builder has made many tanks and even at a width of 30 inches he does not use bracing. He is confident that it is solid.
Tank is beautiful but I have been wondering about this.

Thanks

mlcjohnson16
06/21/2014, 09:10 AM
Thanks for the replies.

I'm really struggling to find a place to get a tank made near me. I live in Waco, NE (between Grand Island and Lincoln) and have gone to all the LFS, but have yet to find a tank that suits my needs.

Ideally I want to have a Herbie Drain (2 stand pipes) and a return drilled through the bottom of the tank at 90 gallons.

All the reef-ready at that size are a single drain and return and the cost for me to have a tank built and shipped to Nebraska custom is astronomical.

Personally I wanted a wider footprint rather than a taller tank because if I customize it I would put the overlow on the center of the tank and would lose about 6" of aquascaping in an 18" wide.

Anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks,
jj

uncleof6
06/21/2014, 11:02 PM
Thanks for the replies.

I'm really struggling to find a place to get a tank made near me. I live in Waco, NE (between Grand Island and Lincoln) and have gone to all the LFS, but have yet to find a tank that suits my needs.

Perhaps you should more clearly define what your needs are. Quite honestly, I don't see any need (so far) that would not be met by a standard (delivered direct to your nearest LFS) 120 gallon (48 x 24 x 24.) It is an ideal starter tank, and comes blank slate (not reef ready) as long as you "just say no" to reef ready.

Ideally I want to have a Herbie Drain (2 stand pipes) and a return drilled through the bottom of the tank at 90 gallons.

There is nothing particularly ideal about the 'herbie.' It is intended for reef ready tanks, and reef ready tanks are far from ideal. They have small overflows that provide inefficient surface skimming/renewal and...

All the reef-ready at that size are a single drain and return and the cost for me to have a tank built and shipped to Nebraska custom is astronomical.

The holes are definately too small, for the tank size they are placed in. That said, however, who said you had to use one for a return? (Reef ready-itis.) Most herbies in reef ready tanks, use the smaller of the holes for the siphon, and the larger hole for the dry emergency, and run the return up over the back. But still, the whole setup is far from ideal.

Personally I wanted a wider footprint rather than a taller tank because if I customize it I would put the overlow on the center of the tank and would lose about 6" of aquascaping in an 18" wide.

Again, why would you want to follow the typical RR pattern by putting holes in the bottom of the tank? Far from ideal. Small full height overflows are also typical RR pattern. That said, you won't lose 6" out of an 18" tank, you will only lose 2" (assuming the overflow is 6" front to back, and only to a point) because you should not have any aquascaping within 4" of the back (or ends of the tank) This is a circulation issue, and sets you up for cyano outbreaks, if you pile rocks against the back and sides. You should also not have rocks piled up against the overflow. (same as piling them against the back and ends.)

Anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks,
jj

Seems to me you are suffering from a hobby start case of reef ready-itis. The whole idea behind custom overflows, and 'custom' drain systems, is getting away from what the manufacturers have been forcing on us, to systems that are far more ideal, though ideal is an elusive property, and function far better at meeting the needs of marine systems, which are not the same as freshwater where most of this stuff comes from.

For a starter tank, it does not get any better than the 120.

http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/uncleof6/120_4WideTank.jpg

jthao
06/22/2014, 12:31 AM
you can easily do a tank that size in 1/2" and it can be rimless. if you want to feel more secure, do a "euro brace" along the bottom of the tank like most manufacturers do.

I had a 48x30x20T rimless tank (125g) that was 1/2" glass and it had 1/2" glass about 2" wide eurobraced along the bottom. it had 3/4" bottom pane, but it wasn't necessary for that. mines had a center external overflow, so eurobracing around the bottom was easy to do, but even with internal box, it can be done.

i now have an elos 120, 47.5x22.5x19.5T, and its 1/2" rimless. they do however use a type of bracing along the bottom as well, and even 1 going across at the bottom, but i think just the eurobracing along the bottom edge is enough, elos uses the brace going across the bottom mainly because the bottom are multi piece siliconed together to form the whole bottom panel. Most likely, you'll just have a single 1 piece bottom panel, so these cross bracing along the bottom is not necessary.

any 48" long or less and 30" wide or less and 20" or less tall can be done using just 1/2" glass, but at the bigger end of those dimensions (like my tank was) you'll want bottom eurobrace. Your dimensions, I would feel safe doing 1/2" glass and no bracing at all. I'm sure it would be fine.

I also had a 60"x30"x24"T rimless tank, also the same eurobraced bottom edge, but this tank was 3/4" thick. I've seen 1 tank that was 60x24x20T that was rimless 1/2" glass and no eurobracing. it held up fine, but I wouldn't sleep well at night with this tank. the front and back long panels bowed slightly in the middle. It should have been built with 3/4" glass but idk why the owner opted for 1/2" glass :confused:

I believe elos 160 (which is around 62-63" long) uses 1/2" glass. but they have warranty :thumbsup: and they use a very thick bottom panel (even though it's multipiece) around total thickness of close to 1" I believe.

jthao
06/22/2014, 12:53 AM
remember, any 48" long rimless tank should never be built with anything less than 1/2" glass. with glass tanks, its not that the glass would just crack in half, its the surface area to is needed for silicone to hold the tank together. the thinner the glass, the less silicone surface area to hold the tank together. The bottom eurobrace method is not so much of a "brace" but more that instead of having only 1/2" for silicone to sit between the glass, if a 1/2" brace was used, you now have 1" surface area for silicone between the front, sides, and back to hold to the bottom panel.

In my case for the 125g rimless, it had a 3/4" bottom panel and a 1/2" eurobrace along the bottom edge. So essentially, it's 1.25" of surface area of silicone to hold the front, sides, and back to that bottom panel so the pressure wouldn't rip the seams apart.

another tip: for rimless tanks, always run an extra bead of silicone to the inside of the seams in the corner where the panels meet. some just run silicone in the gap between the two panels where they meet, but I suggest running that extra bead along the inside corners from bottom all the way up to the top of the glass, you'll sleep better doing this.

from many manufacturers I've seen and gathered info (i'm no expert, just from my experience here):
-rimless tanks usually should be shorter, most 20" or less. if you want to go taller (24" max i've ever seen) then glass thickness has to be increased, even if length and width stays the same.
-3/8" for up to 36" long tanks x 24" wide x 20" tall MAX dimensions, when going with max dimensions for that thickness of glass, bottom eurobracing should be used.
-1/2" for up to 48" long tanks x 30" wide x 20" tall MAX dimensions, same rule applies with eurobracing
-3/4" for up to 60" long tanks x 30" wide x 24" tall (same rules as above) i would say 20" max tall here too, but i've had one that's 24" tall and with eurobracing it was solid.
I've never seen a rimless no brace tank that's longer than 60" if the depth was 24" or wider, only if it's width was small, so maybe like a 72"x20" or less x16" or something along those lines. but i just don't think a 72x30x24 tank would work as rimless unless that glass was like 1"++ thick which would make the tank like 2000lbs. my 3/4" thick 60" long tank weighed around 450-500lbs. never actually weighed it, but 4 guys in each corner couldn't pick it up :surprised:

uncleof6
06/22/2014, 07:29 AM
I built tanks for 20 years, and I disagree with a great deal of what you have said. The information and admonishments I provide are based on years of direct hands on experience, and an engineering background. You have done some research, that is very apparent, but that is not a replacement for hard core experience actually building tanks, and a knowledge of the forces, and materials, at work. I give advice for the safety of THEIR system, not mine or anyone else's.

Just as an example, one of the last tanks I built was a 72" x 36" x 30" 325 gallon rimless tank. 1" glass. The design presented to the client is posted in several places here on RC. The cost of that tank is classified...

What manufacturers do, has no bearing on what can easily be done, nor does it reflect sound safe design/engineering. Rather the cheapest they can get away with that will not instantly self destruct. Some of these rimless tanks make it onto this forum: "The tank is bowing, is it safe?" Truth is, if you can see it bowing, it is not "sound." These tanks are not something an amatuer should even attempt to build, in the first place. Underbuilding them is an even worse idea...building a tank, the right way, is neither simple or easy. The information available on the internet is sorely lacking at best. These things can go for a couple years before self destructing, and I have only seen one case where someone came back on and was honest enough to admit that his tank, for which he made a very detailed build thread, after doing extensive online research, self destructed a year or so later.

jthao
06/22/2014, 08:00 AM
Just as an example, one of the last tanks I built was a 72" x 36" x 30" 325 gallon rimless tank. 1" glass. The design presented to the client is posted in several places here on RC. The cost of that tank is classified...


I don't claim to be an expert, i even said that in my post. this tank you're talking about, falls into what i told the guy. i said anything more than 30" wide and taller than 24" on a 6feet tank would have to be 1"+ to be safe.

I don't recommend that he builds it himself, I have lots of experience myself, but I would rather pay a professional to build me a tank than try to do it myself. only tanks i would attempt would be small 20g or so.

I only posted because he asked for advice on glass thickness and such, so i provided my opinion and experience that's all. No where did I say it's a good idea to attempt to build one as an amateur.

and I do agree with you that tank manufacturers will use the "minimum" to build tanks. The custom tanks I had that were build by a local tank builder was built wayyyyyyy stronger than an rimless tanks that I bought that were from manufacturers. Even Elos tanks are built not as strong as my local guy. My local guy would never use 1/2" glass on a tank the size of elos' 160. He'd probably use 3/4" glass and brace it at the bottom like crazy. But then again, like i mentioned, these local guys can't afford to have your tank fall apart. these big companies can cut corners and if a few of the tanks fall apart, they can afford to just replace it. But I've never heard of an Elos tank fail anyways, so I guess that their engineers must be doing something right.

and I do agree that you are probably wayy more qualified to give advice than me. I don't have degree in engineering nor do I have experience building tanks. Heck, 20 years ago, i was barely in school :rollface:

jthao
06/22/2014, 08:05 AM
To the op, i only provided my opinion to what you wanna do, I still believe that the glass thickness that I said as a rule of thumb, is what most tank builders would use anyways. and if you go by these, you should be fine as far as tank not blowing up on you (if you trust yourself enough to actually build a tank and be able to sleep at night, I wouldn't myself :lol:) but the actual build quality and workmanship, that's another thing on it's own aside from what size thickness you should use.

mlcjohnson16
06/22/2014, 11:45 AM
Thanks again for all the replies.

The problem with the tanks that are delivered to the LFS seem to be that they are all tempered glass on the bottom and I specifically need a bottom drilled tank for the installation (wife's orders on that one - our current is plumbed out the back). I would prefer to drill it myself - but finding in talking to the LFstores none have a distributor that provides one that doesn't use tempered glass on the bottom. (or they and I are ignorant of one). If you have info on a manufacturer that produces a 48x24x24 all glass for reasonable price I would love it and will get working with the LFS to try and order it.

I have looked into getting a custom tank created with the holes drilled in the bottom from GlassCages.com - but I've heard good and bad about the quality. I also looked at Coast to Coast but the price after manufacturing and delivery for a 92gallon was literally a few thousan dollars and a little out of my price range.

The reef - ready tanks for the 120gallon are what am I currently looking into - it is bigger than what I want to as I'm upgrading from a 55gal and have equipment that I believe will be suitable for a 92 gallon of 48 x 21 x 21, but right now it looks like my best option is the Marineland 120.

I would simply replace the built in plumbing with my own. and fit it to my liking; however, I'm not a fan of the bulkheads they use on them and have been unable to find information on the size of the drilled hole they use. The bulkheads I currently use require a 60mm drilling, (about 2.5") but I think the reef ready tanks are 1.5"

Thanks again - if you have more advice I'll gladly take it! Again I would prefer to have the tank done professionally, but I'm not finding any options in my price range.

jthao
06/22/2014, 09:06 PM
order a tank from leemar or visio. they're very reasonably priced compared to some other tank builders. and you can have it built exactly as you like.
any other builders like AGE, keith grandt, reef savvy, will cost you a little bit more for the better quality.
there's easily many choices to choose from, problem is, if you're budget is limited, you will have a hard time getting exactly what you want for the price you want.

uwish
03/13/2015, 01:06 PM
I have a 130 Gal rimless tank with 10mm glass. It's 72" long but only 18" wide and 23" tall...safety factor of 3.8.

I does bow slightly I wouldn't say you could 'measure' it, it's so slight it just deviates from a straight line.

uncleof6
03/13/2015, 01:41 PM
I have a 130 Gal rimless tank with 10mm glass. It's 72" long but only 18" wide and 23" tall...safety factor of 3.8.

I does bow slightly I wouldn't say you could 'measure' it, it's so slight it just deviates from a straight line.


Safe rimless tanks are built with a 7.6 safety factor. 3.8 is used for tanks that will have a full metal rim. To be a well built tank, your tank should be built with 17mm glass (19mm; always go thicker, 15mm would be too thin.)
Your actual safety factor is 2.6, not 3.8. This is very much like the 6mm cube tanks that split seams on occasion.

mkj
03/19/2015, 03:52 PM
listen to your Uncle he knows what he's talking about. Home builds without correct equipment should never be done with tanks over 30 gallons or over 16" tall. The manufacturers get away with thinner glass because they have the right equipment to keep it together while curing and use strong silicone.

There's more to it than just glass size. The glass for that size tank is too heavy to built at home with tape holding it together "the silicone will squish out". Get a professional like Uncle to build it if you don't have the $100s of dollars invested to keep that 1/16" spacing correct on larger tanks. Rimless tanks should have double the fug factor which is the 7.5 range and built by a pro. Small tanks are ok for home builds but still should have that 7.5 fug factor minimum for rimless.

Uncles suggestion of 5/8 glass minimum built by a professional with bracing or 1" for rimless built using correct equipment is what you should go for. Too big of a risk to built this tank at home.

Make sure you have that outer seal too not just the inner, its there for a reason especially on rimless

uwish
03/22/2015, 02:10 PM
Safe rimless tanks are built with a 7.6 safety factor. 3.8 is used for tanks that will have a full metal rim. To be a well built tank, your tank should be built with 17mm glass (19mm; always go thicker, 15mm would be too thin.)
Your actual safety factor is 2.6, not 3.8. This is very much like the 6mm cube tanks that split seams on occasion.

I made a mistake the glass is 14mm not 10mm... I sit corrected, that's why the safety factor numbers did not match.

orangefan
06/29/2016, 02:34 PM
Newbie here just bought a 17.7 gallon rimless from aquamaxx right out of marineaquariums.com great deal going on right now. I paid 105 roughly free shipping for my diy rack.
Anyway......

had to rebump this with 3 quick questions.
the tank I bought is 24L x 12 D X 14 H and 17.7 gallons 6cm thick. pretty much the equivilent of ada's 60p.

1. How many years should I expect this to last? silcone jobs are slated very good so far from this brand.

2. Should I go with a homemade eurobrace in the middle would that help the seams on the outside or really not needed.

3. is there a way to strength up the seams or something on the outside? any recommendations there? as I am using it for freshwater aquascape

4. what if I only fill it like 10 inches high instead of the full 14?
Cheers,
Adam