Why are my SPS so pale?

[Jkeating8]

I need some help, RC. Recently I've notice that my sour apple birdsnest was just looking blah. Kinda brown with some very slight green tips. My Green Monti is pale, and my blue Acro is just brown. I don't understand. I'm also noticing some bleaching or necrosis and polyp retraction on my sour apple bird. I skim heavy and I just started dosing Red Sea No3/Po4 X to try to get better color. I think this is similar to micro bacter 7. I'm not sure what's going on. I just switched to Red Sea Coral Pro, but I did so slowly to make sure not to shock anything, so I doubt that's it. I have an Ecoxotic PAR 38 lamp lighting the tank. Growth was great but now I'm seeing color loss and necrosis. My hypothesis is that starting to dose the Red Sea NO3/PO4 X that I'm stripping the water completely.

Here's my levels all via Red Sea Pro:
NO3- 0
PO4- .03
Calc- 375
Mag- 1400
Alk- 8

I tested these after a week went by without a water change. Just did one today.

[_dilly]

could definitely be that you're stripping the water completely and it's too clean. they could be starving. do you feed sps?
also just a suggestion - your numbers look good but are quite a bit different that red sea coral pro - if you switched to pro and plan to run those numbers you listed, the regular red sea salt (non-pro) is very close to your current levels. just might help to minimize any water change swings...just fyi

[Jkeating8]

could definitely be that you're stripping the water completely and it's too clean. they could be starving. do you feed sps?

also just a suggestion - your numbers look good but are quite a bit different that red sea coral pro - if you switched to pro and plan to run those numbers you listed, the regular red sea salt (non-pro) is very close to your current levels. just might help to minimize any water change swings...just fyi


I do not feed. I feed LPS some PE Mysis and I feed my six line that as well. I'm going to the LFS tomorrow so I can pick something up. Any suggestions? I think my plan of attack will be to lower the dose of Red Sea and only dose every other day. I'll also start feeding SPS. Hopefully that will help out.

As for salt, I recently just switched in the last week or so. I probably haven't even done enough water changes to change the entire tank volume. I've been doing about a half gallon every few days or so.

Edit: Also, Ph changes from 8.2-8.3 throughout the day. Temp stays steady at 78, and SG at 1.025.

[Jkeating8]

Forgot to attach pics- http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/01/u2emujy4.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/01/na3ezyha.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/01/uheveba4.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/01/u4e7ezy6.jpg

[muttley101]

Need a little NO3... probably starving...

[Jkeating8]

I'm going to back off the Red Sea then. Lower dose and fewer doses.

[_dilly]

I do not feed. I feed LPS some PE Mysis and I feed my six line that as well. I'm going to the LFS tomorrow so I can pick something up. Any suggestions? I think my plan of attack will be to lower the dose of Red Sea and only dose every other day. I'll also start feeding SPS. Hopefully that will help out.

As for salt, I recently just switched in the last week or so. I probably haven't even done enough water changes to change the entire tank volume. I've been doing about a half gallon every few days or so.

Edit: Also, Ph changes from 8.2-8.3 throughout the day. Temp stays steady at 78, and SG at 1.025.

Most solid LFS have phytofeast & oysterfeast, maybe pick those up. also things like reef chili from brs, coral vitalizer and amino acids could help. i use a mix of all that stuff. i'm sure more people will have suggestions as there are tons of foods.

As for the salt, I think if you eventually start doing larger water changes, you might want to switch to the red sea non-pro but just a suggestion. i guess the determining factor is - do you dose 2 part/kalk/etc daily? if so, i'd definitely switch to non-pro. if you have a lower hard coral load and just do smaller water changes w the pro keeping things steady that could be fine, but to me it's best to use a salt that is closest to your stable numbers

[Jkeating8]

Ok. I'm pretty sure my LFS has them both. I'll pick some up tomorrow. I don't dose anything, so I'll just stick to smaller water changes to maintain some consistency in levels.

[tmz]

Nitrogen deficiency perhaps. Could be something else in the organic carbon source ,perhaps sugar. Hard to say. Akalinity swings also effect sps.

[Jkeating8]

Nitrogen deficiency perhaps. Could be something else in the organic carbon source ,perhaps sugar. Hard to say. Akalinity swings also effect sps.


I'm leaning towards no3. Alk doesn't really swing from what I've seen.
How would sugar in the carbon source effect the tank? Just curious.

[tdb320reef]

Why NO3- 0

Solution NO3 = 1PPM or more

[Jkeating8]

Why NO3- 0

Solution NO3 = 1PPM or more


I'll work on that. Thanks!

[tmz]

I would say if you choose to dose NO3 it would be to1ppm or less. Natural Seawater is about 0.2ppm . My tanks do well at 0.2ppm give or take a tad and hold low PO4 .02ppm to .04 ppm .

NO3PO4 X is a carbon source of mixed types but we don't know exaclty what's in it. Might be perfectly fine. I've had good luck for 5.5 years with vodka and vinegar. Tried small amounts of sugar with it twice and got some coral browning and recission. Carbohydrates and sugars have a longer bacteial pathway than ehtanol/vodka and acetic acid/viengar ,ie more and different bacterial reactions. May be fine for some but not for me and several others I know. NO3PO4X is used by some of my freinds in small amounts without any signs of trouble so far though.

Sugar has caused problems for several who have tried it. Excess glucose has been linked to coral mortality in at least one study.

[mikedoyle]

I had the same issue for a while and it was due to nutrient defincency. I started feeding with BRS reef chili and oyster feast and also dosing reef fuel everyother day and things look 100 times better

[PaleHorse]

Korallen-Zucht ZEOvit Coral Vitalizer Coral Food is also awesome.

[Jkeating8]

Korallen-Zucht ZEOvit Coral Vitalizer Coral Food is also awesome.


Is dosing the entire Zeovit system worth it? I'm just speaking generally.

[Jkeating8]

I would say if you choose to dose NO3 it would be to1ppm or less. Natural Seawater is about 0.2ppm . My tanks do well at 0.2ppm give or take a tad and hold low PO4 .02ppm to .04 ppm .

NO3PO4 X is a carbon source of mixed types but we don't know exaclty what's in it. Might be perfectly fine. I've had good luck for 5.5 years with vodka and vinegar. Tried small amounts of sugar with it twice and got some coral browning and recission. Carbohydrates and sugars have a longer bacteial pathway than ehtanol/vodka and acetic acid/viengar ,ie more and different bacterial reactions. May be fine for some but not for me and several others I know. NO3PO4X is used by some of my freinds in small amounts without any signs of trouble so far though.

Sugar has caused problems for several who have tried it. Excess glucose has been linked to coral mortality in at least one study.


Understood. Thank you. I'll see where it goes from here.

[tmz]

Setting the potential nutrient deficiency aside for the moment. lighting may also cause the paling. I've rescued bleaching frags from firend's tanks where the lighting was more intense than mine and have had nearly pure white specimens regain color with a month.

FWIW,I have not used the zeovit products nor do I dose trace element supplements. Amminos might be a good source of nitrogen . Coral foods are useful too but I don't use very much,very often . I do feed the aquiarums heavily primarily with frozen foods of various types ;there is a large fish population, I also do regular water changes ,1% per day, plus some for maintenance tasks ,total about 35% per month,

[Jkeating8]

Setting the potential nutrient deficiency aside for the moment. lighting may also cause the paling. I've rescued bleaching frags from firend's tanks where the lighting was more intense than mine and have had nearly pure white specimens regain color with a month.

FWIW,I have not used the zeovit products nor do I dose trace element supplements. Amminos might be a good source of nitrogen . Coral foods are useful too but I don't use very much,very often . I do feed the aquiarums heavily primarily with frozen foods of various types ;there is a large fish population, I also do regular water changes ,1% per day, plus some for maintenance tasks ,total about 35% per month,


I think that the lighting plays a little bit of a role. The PAR 38 could never seem to bring out the best colors on anything. I'm switching to Razor Nano soon. I would jump to say the lighting is causing the bleaching, i haven't touched my light in two months. Everything has been fine until about a week ago. That's why I tend to believe it is a deficiency problem.

Ok. I may look into it then. Im about to start an ADA 60P so I should start a build thread I guess.

[rovster]

Could be a number of things. Why were you dosing the NoPox to begin with? You say to improve colors, but were the corals healthy otherwise? Or were colors off AND looking kinda ragged?

Couple of things to look into:
1. Lighting. Par bulbs are OK, but you need to make sure you have enough
2. NoPox stripping the water to quickly
3. RSCP mixes to around 12dkh. You do a large enough water change and you may spike your alk >1dkh, I know that because I use the same salt
4. High alk or an alk spike in conjuction with carbon dosing is a big no-no. I know because its happened to me. Any time my alk starts to creep up, the first thing I notice is my green birdsnest gets some die off at the tips.

The other thing I've noticed is that after some kind of event int he tank (temp change, alk spike, significant nutrient change) the corals kind of shut down for a few days. If I stay on my regular dosing regimen, alk will creep and lead to this vicious circle. It usually happens when I'm out of town for a few days, and although I usually have someone dose the tank, its not spread out as it is when I'm home.

I would track your alk daily and see how it behaves.

I also had some issues with paling corals. I even started a thread on it. I was also stripping my tank, and after a few months of feeding heavy and dosing all kinds of stuff, things got better.

Finding that balance is tough though. Its much easier to feed a little too much, and when you see algae, back off a little as opposed to strip the tank completely and try and figure out how much you need to add to make everything happy. Good luck. Its a continual learning process......

[s2nhle]

Tagging along. Thank for sharing.

[Jkeating8]

Could be a number of things. Why were you dosing the NoPox to begin with? You say to improve colors, but were the corals healthy otherwise? Or were colors off AND looking kinda ragged?



Couple of things to look into:

1. Lighting. Par bulbs are OK, but you need to make sure you have enough

2. NoPox stripping the water to quickly

3. RSCP mixes to around 12dkh. You do a large enough water change and you may spike your alk >1dkh, I know that because I use the same salt

4. High alk or an alk spike in conjuction with carbon dosing is a big no-no. I know because its happened to me. Any time my alk starts to creep up, the first thing I notice is my green birdsnest gets some die off at the tips.



The other thing I've noticed is that after some kind of event int he tank (temp change, alk spike, significant nutrient change) the corals kind of shut down for a few days. If I stay on my regular dosing regimen, alk will creep and lead to this vicious circle. It usually happens when I'm out of town for a few days, and although I usually have someone dose the tank, its not spread out as it is when I'm home.



I would track your alk daily and see how it behaves.



I also had some issues with paling corals. I even started a thread on it. I was also stripping my tank, and after a few months of feeding heavy and dosing all kinds of stuff, things got better.



Finding that balance is tough though. Its much easier to feed a little too much, and when you see algae, back off a little as opposed to strip the tank completely and try and figure out how much you need to add to make everything happy. Good luck. Its a continual learning process......


If RSCP mixes to 12dkh, I should test today. I tested yesterday before a WC. I changed about 10%. If I notice that my Alk is the same then I guess I know that my alk is being consumed to quickly.
I guess I could jumped the gun on dosing that Red Sea, too. The balance is definitley harder to find than I thoug. Atleast with SPS.

I'll also start feeding corals. Thank you very much for the detailed response.

[ZON]

I don't think are so pale..but some aa or sodium nitrate will help

[Jkeating8]

I went to the LFS last night and picked up a ton of stuff for my new build. If anyone wants to follow, it will be in the nano section. I also got some Coral Frenzy, Acro Power, and some Two part for wen I have to start dosing. I'll check alk again today and report back.

[justthewife]

Well....I am new to SPS corals but just to throw something else in the mix, I usually keep my ca at 430 and my corals do better.

[Jkeating8]

Well....I am new to SPS corals but just to throw something else in the mix, I usually keep my ca at 430 and my corals do better.


I thought calcium was a little low too, but it's more so alk that I'm worried about.

[Jkeating8]

Well, after dosing Acropower last night, all my SPS look immediately better. Polyp extension and color look much better.

[justthewife]

Well, after dosing Acropower last night, all my SPS look immediately better. Polyp extension and color look much better.

I want to get Acropower. :) So it works well?

[Jkeating8]

So far it has worked. I'm fairly certain it was a nutrient problem and not my alk. However, I'll still monitor. I need to find a balance of dosing to not deplete the tank of nutrients.

[Jkeating8]

A little update of about three weeks or so. So I left for
Vacation on the 5th, leaving my reef in the hands of my girlfriend, just to dose. Well I came home to some pretty sh*tty results. No algae or anything, but zero polyp extension on my SPS, other than the Monti which has taken on a reddish white hue with green polyps. The Acro is loosing a bit of tissue and the Birdsnest won't extend polyps. Nitrates were at .5 and phosphate was at .1 or 0. Couldn't tell. I have been dosing Acropower every other day, but it must not be doing the job. I'm not sure at this pint. Everything else looks fine. It's not alk swings or any of the big three. Alk stays around 8.2, mag at 1340, and calc at 375. Maybe calc is low? I don't understand. I'm going to try and feed even more and see if that helps as my nutrients are still staying super low. I also lost my sixline while I was away. Came home to a million white dots on him and he died the next day. Any help?

[Caravanshaka]

Calcium is definitely pretty low. The general standard for a reef tank for calcium is 425-450. Alk and Mag look good, but it wouldn't hurt to bring mag up to 1350-1400.

Also, be careful of doing too much at one time. I would start with another water change and see where calcium is at. Try to get it close to 400 after the water change, then wait a day or two and test again. You will likely need to start dosing calcium to get it up over 425. But don't try and go from 375 to 450 in a day, spread it out in ~20-25 increments a day so you don't shock the coral.

[degibson84]

Forgot to attach pics- http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/01/u2emujy4.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/01/na3ezyha.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/01/uheveba4.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/01/u4e7ezy6.jpg

[PaleHorse]

everything looks good for a led tank.

[Jkeating8]

everything looks good for a led tank.


Haha is this a stab at LEDs in general? I'm not thrilled with the PAR 38 bulb at all. I don't care for it, at least for SPS. It grows everything else wonderfully. It's also not full spectrum. For my next build I'm going to try a Radion. I've seen excellent results in person of the Radion. If it doesn't work, I have a fall back option of T5s or halide. Preferably T5.

[Jkeating8]

Calcium is definitely pretty low. The general standard for a reef tank for calcium is 425-450. Alk and Mag look good, but it wouldn't hurt to bring mag up to 1350-1400.

Also, be careful of doing too much at one time. I would start with another water change and see where calcium is at. Try to get it close to 400 after the water change, then wait a day or two and test again. You will likely need to start dosing calcium to get it up over 425. But don't try and go from 375 to 450 in a day, spread it out in ~20-25 increments a day so you don't shock the coral.


So I just tested everything again. I also should add that I have what seems like 0 corraline growth. At 7 months in I thought I would see some atleast. Hm.

Calc: 400
Alk:11.9 (I may retest this. It seems high for normal. It normally is around 8.2-8.4)
Mag- 1400

NO3- .75
PO4- .08

[Jkeating8]

Here's some pics. Things are not looking good, and for the life of me I can't figure out why. The big three are in check always, there aren't any obvious swings in alk or calc, they're always consistent. Magnesium always stays anywhere from 1350-1400. Nitrate and phosphate are in check. I'm at a loss. :( http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/25/nu9ure5e.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/25/y3ydypy9.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/25/neve5a8e.jpg Am I missing something? My Monti kinda looks red..

[tmz]

Calcium : the recommended range is 380ppm to 450ppm, fyi. 375ppm or 400ppm calcium is not the pro0blem,imo. It could be higher but isn't hurting anytning at 375. Natural Seawater is about 410ppm. Keeping alk steady is improtant for sps in particular.