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thenewguy997
07/21/2014, 08:37 AM
Personally i love it. When i went as a kid i was amazed at life and its wondetful creatures

But do you think its wrong to keep orcas in a pool or make them do tricks?

Also its not just seaworld my pgh zoo does this too with sea lions

There is a lot of controversy lately over this

alton
07/21/2014, 09:13 AM
The same controversy could be applied to our aquariums, along with dogs and cats in apartments. I always thought they gave all the care in the world to there animals and fish. Just like many of us give the best care to our animals and fish, someone will always find fault.

ChimolaFish
07/21/2014, 10:30 AM
I think there is a difference between keeping animals and giving them the best possible care (like most of us do), while sea world (as a corporation, most of the employees genuinely care for the animals) knows that orcas cannot be kept in pools that size. Their lives are cut significantly, and most of them go insane. Sea World has every right in the world to keep penguins, or other animals that are small enough, or are able to be kept in smaller areas than the open ocean, but not a whale. And the fact that they train their tour guides incorrect information to cover their tracks proves they don't care about the animals, they just want to see profit. It's disgusting, and keeping whales in pools should be illegal.

Voodoo Corals
07/21/2014, 10:54 AM
Sea world gives the animals there the best care possible. Corals on the other hand I'm not sure. I started a donation project in Florida where I would send them corals to grow out in their reef tank. Needless to say only the monti's were growing. The rest had died. Lighting was the issue as some tanks were so deep.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/ggchula/Fish%20tanks/20140717_104338_zpswu10pifi.jpg (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/ggchula/media/Fish%20tanks/20140717_104338_zpswu10pifi.jpg.html)

Voodoo Corals
07/21/2014, 10:57 AM
The LPS were from another donor

thenewguy997
07/21/2014, 04:52 PM
I dont think they need orcas, id enjoy it the same orcas or no.

Id love to see a great white up close in a tank tho.. Or a giant squid imagine that

KafudaFish
07/21/2014, 04:55 PM
Personally i love it. When i went as a kid i was amazed at life and its wondetful creatures

But do you think its wrong to keep orcas in a pool or make them do tricks?

Also its not just seaworld my pgh zoo does this too with sea lions

There is a lot of controversy lately over this

Perhaps the tricks that you see are for exercise and enrichment for the animal and to help build a working relationship between the trainer and the animal so that the trainer can care for it as necessary.

It is probably more than blow a whistle and throw a fish kind of task.

planedoc
07/21/2014, 05:39 PM
I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that the whales they have are either born in captivity or rescued. If a whale that was going to die is held In captivity and the research generated along with the money generated pays for the zoos other beneficial research than it all works out. What I'm really getting at is that sea world along with other zoo's and entertainment type places do a lot more behind the scenes than what most people know or see. Breeding programs for rare and endangered species are really expensive. Do people want to pay to see some veterinarian artificially inseminate a monkey or do they they want to see a killer whale toss a ball or see dolphins do tricks. These facilities don't have to make a profit but they do have run in the black or it won't exist. I can honestly say that a caged animal is not a happy animal but for the future of all animals it can not be avoided. To say sea world does not care about their animals is completely stupid. Their entire business is based on caring for the animals. If you do some research some people praise and some people scold sea world but the bottom line is all the research they have done on all animals would not exist if it wasn't for the entertainment value of the whales dolphins and penguins which all suffer from being held in captivity. Cats on the other hand live almost twice as long in captivity because they don't kill each other or die from disease like they do in the wild. I love the zoo and my kids love the zoo and what makes any of you think that keeping a miniature ocean in our homes has any benefits for the wild at all. I know I don't publish any reports so I am just helping fund the destruction of the world's natural reefs. I try to buy coral frags from locals rather than buying whole corals that have come from the ocean. One they seem to do better and two they don't hurt a reef. In all reality I think Sea world and all aquariums and zoos do more good than harm at least in America.

lafayettereefer
07/21/2014, 10:08 PM
Seaworld was a great experience for me personally. This has been a controversial matter for many years and I doubt they'll ever be able to make everyone happy.

alexx2208
07/22/2014, 07:44 AM
The controversy is the few orcas that were captured from the wild in the 80's are large 30+ year old orcas who are aggressive towards other orcas.... Also one, named tilikum, has killed 2 trainers..... Now the problem is that the captive bred orcas are his kids, and the environmentalists say that since he's aggressive, they must be too... Now I do not think that they have seen much aggression from them, but sea world doesn't want to give up this old guy because he's the money(baby) maker....... Now, tilikum, that I know of, is in Orlando, I have no idea why they are lobbying to remove them from the public view in San Diego......

Mark426
07/22/2014, 11:05 AM
Not crazy about all of what they do.

Rarewon
07/22/2014, 11:33 AM
What about after 44years? If you think their tank is a pool, Lolita's play groud is a tub

vzUgLbHzKIE

Pdetevis
07/22/2014, 03:02 PM
Monterey Bay Aquarium had a white shark for a little while then released it back into the ocean. I agree with the fact that there are two sides to everything, there's good from bad and bad from good, unfortunately your never going to hear about the good for bad. Sea World has made some bad decisions, but they have made way more great research breakthroughs than bad decisions. hopefully they are learning from there mistakes.

thenewguy997
07/22/2014, 06:30 PM
I dont think seaworld is bad

But its kindve like jurassic park lol

woodnaquanut
07/22/2014, 11:25 PM
Have you seen the movie 'Blackfish'? Available for streaming from Netflix.

I'm not an animal rights nut. I have aquariums, pets and eat meat!

I do believe we should be responsible and humane to other life forms.

KWs are social animals. They travel and live as a group (pod).They do not live in the wild as individuals. At SeaWorld they are often alone and are never part of a pod (family group).

They naturally travel many miles per day. At SW they are often in tanks too small to turn around in easily.

The male's dorsal fin is erect in the wild. At SW the dorsal fin is bent. Remember 'Free Willy'?

Their lifespan is much longer in the wild vs. SeaWorld. 75 years vs. 25, IIRC.

On this board we have discussions about what size tank is appropriate for a fish. Tangs come up often. Expand the concept to a 'fish' the size of a KW and just think how the tiny tank is torture for such an intelligent animal.

Most hobbyists do as much as they can for animals in their care. Expenses be dammed!

SeaWorld is a corporation. Their motivation is profit. It's not a research institution or a learning/teaching facility. They are there to make money. An aquatic Disneyland. They can't profitably care properly for an animal like a KW so they cut corners.

I'd much rather spend my money on a CB fish or aquacultured coral than support the inhumane treatment of such a beautiful animal.

mandarin_goby
07/23/2014, 05:10 AM
Blackfish really really opened my eyes. Orcas do not belong in captivity. And as much as I'd love to see whale sharks, they belong in the ocean - sorry Georgia Aquarium.

thenewguy997
07/23/2014, 10:26 AM
You do have tp realizw blackfish is a propoganda film tho

Joe0813
07/23/2014, 10:42 AM
i think orcas belong in the ocean. You cant possible give them what they need in captivity

Amphiprion
07/23/2014, 12:57 PM
Have you seen the movie 'Blackfish'? Available for streaming from Netflix.

I'm not an animal rights nut. I have aquariums, pets and eat meat!

I do believe we should be responsible and humane to other life forms.

KWs are social animals. They travel and live as a group (pod).They do not live in the wild as individuals. At SeaWorld they are often alone and are never part of a pod (family group).

They naturally travel many miles per day. At SW they are often in tanks too small to turn around in easily.

The male's dorsal fin is erect in the wild. At SW the dorsal fin is bent. Remember 'Free Willy'?

Their lifespan is much longer in the wild vs. SeaWorld. 75 years vs. 25, IIRC.

On this board we have discussions about what size tank is appropriate for a fish. Tangs come up often. Expand the concept to a 'fish' the size of a KW and just think how the tiny tank is torture for such an intelligent animal.

Most hobbyists do as much as they can for animals in their care. Expenses be dammed!

SeaWorld is a corporation. Their motivation is profit. It's not a research institution or a learning/teaching facility. They are there to make money. An aquatic Disneyland. They can't profitably care properly for an animal like a KW so they cut corners.

I'd much rather spend my money on a CB fish or aquacultured coral than support the inhumane treatment of such a beautiful animal.

According to NOAA, the typical lifespan for male Orcinus orca is about 30 years. Females typically live around 50 years. They only talk about potentially up to 50-100 years. There seems to be a lot of variability in wild populations depending upon location, as well. Some populations seem to have shorter lifespans.

While captivity often isn't ideal for a great many animals, many (potentially most) of our animals included, the lessons that can be learned from them are substantial. The parks generate both revenue, research, and public awareness. I think the orcas at Seaworld receive close to the best care in captivity that is currently available. They have always been pretty active and seemingly happy in the many instances I've seen them there (Orlando). The enclosure/tank was definitely easy enough for them to turn around in. Of course, this is just how I viewed it and is anecodotal.

I'm very careful with Blackfish, FWIW.

wild1
07/23/2014, 01:15 PM
I never discuss Religion, Politics or Sea World! I prefer everyone hate me for myself....lol

Ontheway
07/23/2014, 01:20 PM
Seaworld and other places give opportunity to "see" such animals, this is not the same thing seeing it on TV. This way people (especially kids) learn that there are uncountable amount of life forms really exist underwater, and they too, deserve some respect.
This awareness gained at early ages of life bring sensitivity which (hopefully) stops some people and companies of showing their real greediness for consuming sources from oceans.
As mentioned in above messages, Seaworld or others are companies have to make profit, to keep this going. And I am happy that they are making money by spending a lot of effort to "keep alive", if you think the number of companies doing the opposit with the animals...Chicken factories are just an example. So, I believe its ok as long as they provide enough sources for the animals under captivity. When it becomes wrong? If every little town next to each other tries to open their own aquarium and keep such big mammals under captivity, then it may worth to reconsider the situation.

Rarewon
07/23/2014, 03:51 PM
Have you seen the movie 'Blackfish'? Available for streaming from Netflix.

Check out, "The Cove" if you havent already



4KRD8e20fBo

alexx2208
07/23/2014, 08:08 PM
Have you seen the movie 'Blackfish'? Available for streaming from Netflix.

I'm not an animal rights nut. I have aquariums, pets and eat meat!

I do believe we should be responsible and humane to other life forms.

KWs are social animals. They travel and live as a group (pod).They do not live in the wild as individuals. At SeaWorld they are often alone and are never part of a pod (family group).

They naturally travel many miles per day. At SW they are often in tanks too small to turn around in easily.

The male's dorsal fin is erect in the wild. At SW the dorsal fin is bent. Remember 'Free Willy'?

Their lifespan is much longer in the wild vs. SeaWorld. 75 years vs. 25, IIRC.

On this board we have discussions about what size tank is appropriate for a fish. Tangs come up often. Expand the concept to a 'fish' the size of a KW and just think how the tiny tank is torture for such an intelligent animal.

Most hobbyists do as much as they can for animals in their care. Expenses be dammed!

SeaWorld is a corporation. Their motivation is profit. It's not a research institution or a learning/teaching facility. They are there to make money. An aquatic Disneyland. They can't profitably care properly for an animal like a KW so they cut corners.

I'd much rather spend my money on a CB fish or aquacultured coral than support the inhumane treatment of such a beautiful animal.


I do not to be on sea worlds side, since I do think that they do need to improve their facilities and stop breeding the older, actual killer.... Whales, but blackfish is an admitted propaganda movie to deter all people from going to sea world for any reason what-so-ever. Yes, there must be improvements, but as they state, it is the ONE kW which is the one who has killed 2 trainers and one crazy person who essentially committed suicide by going at night and tying himself to this kW. Now, he is one of the only wild caught orcas that sea world has anymore... At 33 years old, he is the largest kW sea world has had, and, IMHO, is the problem. He's almost twice the size of the other kws that they have, and yes... Doesn't fit in their facility "comfortably", although, none seem to do.

I believe that, at this point sea world should improve their facilities, and if they do, they should be able to keep their whales, especially with their current "no trainer in water with kW" rules and what seems to be a life vest on them.

Now, tilikum lives in Orlando, so I have no idea why they want to stop showing kws in California(San Diego)..... I say get to the route of the problem

ReefingWerewolf
07/23/2014, 09:00 PM
I think there is a difference between keeping animals and giving them the best possible care (like most of us do), while sea world (as a corporation, most of the employees genuinely care for the animals) knows that orcas cannot be kept in pools that size. Their lives are cut significantly, and most of them go insane. Sea World has every right in the world to keep penguins, or other animals that are small enough, or are able to be kept in smaller areas than the open ocean, but not a whale. And the fact that they train their tour guides incorrect information to cover their tracks proves they don't care about the animals, they just want to see profit. It's disgusting, and keeping whales in pools should be illegal.

+1

I got no prob with responsibly keeping smaller sized marine animals in large well kept enclosures. But orcas like Morgan prove just how committed to keep the cash flow going seaworld are: http://www.freemorgan.org/morgan-2/ :facepalm:

thenewguy997
07/23/2014, 09:24 PM
See i think thts wrong.

Breed the 'killer' out of the whale. But then its not even an orca, its an amusement park attraction.. Probly wouldnt survive if released

So basically what you want is an orca that acts like a dolphin

But we need to realize orcas are savage. They can and will kill humans, its their dna. Put that in a swimming pool and **** happens..

Its like saying lets breed the aggression out of a great white. Then whats even the point?

I support sea world, but we need to realizw when you treat an apex predator like a toy thete is always a risk.

ReefingWerewolf
07/23/2014, 09:54 PM
See i think thts wrong.

Breed the 'killer' out of the whale. But then its not even an orca, its an amusement park attraction.. Probly wouldnt survive if released

So basically what you want is an orca that acts like a dolphin

But we need to realize orcas are savage. They can and will kill humans, its their dna. Put that in a swimming pool and **** happens..

Its like saying lets breed the aggression out of a great white. Then whats even the point?

I support sea world, but we need to realizw when you treat an apex predator like a toy thete is always a risk.

Orcas are dolphins lol, and to call orcas savage is plain ridiculous. No human has ever been killed by an orca in the wild. The fact is if you put a huge orca in a bathtub with a bunch of little trainers for 30 years (if they are lucky live that long) someone is bound to get squashed eventually. They are incredibly intelligent animals, but locking wild animals up in a kiddy pool and forcing them to do the same show three times a day for years is enough do drive anyone insane. If I was in their position I would eventually attach my captors as well...

Rant over xD

ReefingWerewolf
07/23/2014, 09:59 PM
Found this interesting if anyone is curious: http://savelolita.org/the-plan

Reading this thread has got my doing too much research loll

Ztrain
07/23/2014, 11:31 PM
You do have tp realizw blackfish is a propoganda film tho

Exactly. 100% completely biased. Not that the bias is bad necessarly. People will have different opinions and what not. I actually do find even more interesting is the rebuttals to Blackfish. Like where they show an injured trainer while they are going on about how the whales injure their trainers. Then you find out in other interviews that trainer had slipped or something and cut himself on a net. Don't remember the specifics but had nothing to do with the whiles lol. I consider that to be total miss representation and calls in to question most of the other details presented in the movie. Several clips were totally used out of context and even some of the interviews when the guys were later interviewed were like they only used small clips of the interview that could be scued to their bias. If you watch Blackfish watch some of the rebuttals. Gives a more interesting perspective.

Personally I think keeping an animal that intelligent is inhumane. But I still don't like blatant agenda like Blackfish personally.

Alexraptor
07/24/2014, 06:18 AM
Judging based on intelligence is an extremely dangerous venture into unknown territory.
We still know very little about what "intelligence" actually is, and there is no universal standard for it as there are so many ideas as to how it is defined and how you test it.

Many just a few decades ago the prevailing notion was that fish are dumb and goldfish have 3-second memories.
Yet today we know better, and science has proven that our fish are many times more intelligent than most people give them credit for.(something many of us aquarists have known in our gut for years already ;))

alexx2208
07/24/2014, 07:16 AM
Never recorded has a kW eaten or ripped a person apart lol.. They do not eat humans.... The ones that have killed people usually pull them into the water and drown them... There not eating them, nor would those trainers want you to think they were eating them.... These trainers work all their lives with these animals, and begin to have personal relationships with the animal... But remember, theyre still ANIMALS, they'll want to play, I I wouldn't think they would understand that us humans can't breathe underwater.

Sea world has appropriately changed their policies about how the trainers interact with the kws, but they still need to upgrade their facilities

woodnaquanut
07/24/2014, 09:54 AM
Check out, "The Cove" if you havent already


Thanks. I added it to my Netflix queue.

GroktheCube
07/24/2014, 11:04 AM
I'm generally not the PETA type, but I have a problem with keeping Cetaceans in captivity, and I've felt that way since I started researching marine biology around age 11.

Arguments about intelligence, emotions, etc aside, the strongest argument against keeping them is the quality of life we can provide when measured objectively. It's very rare for a captive Orca to live for even half of its natural lifespan in captivity, and they develop illnesses that simply do not exist in the wild.

This puts them in a very different category from cats, dogs, or the majority of the animals that we keep as pets. Many animals humans keep in captivity can live much longer and healthier lives than they would in the wild.

That is not the case for Cetaceans. Without even taking their intelligence into account, I don't think keeping them in captivity is wise. Once their intelligence is taken into account, I can't see any moral justification. These are animals that are capable of abstract rational thought, empathy, fairly advanced communication, and have distinct cultural and linguistic differences between pods on a level that's only observed otherwise in humans.

Just my .02

imkelz
07/24/2014, 12:24 PM
I used to want to go to sea world when I was a kid, but now I think that I would much rather see orcas on a whale watching trip.

Shawn O
07/28/2014, 10:24 AM
While I see both sides of the argument, I do not condone abusive treatment of animals of any kind. I also don't condemn the hunting of animals for food.

I very much enjoyed going to SW every few years as a child and would like to see SW continue to use them as an attraction as long as the Orcas are given a proper environment. The size of the pools used for the Orcas are the equivalent of keeping a human in a 10x10 room permanently. SW needs to keep these marvelous creatures in an enclosure at least the size of a football stadium for the well being of the animal. Something that large needs room to move freely in an environment that more closely resembles it's natural one.

reeferstace
07/29/2014, 03:28 PM
Whales belong in the ocean.

nicdu
07/29/2014, 03:59 PM
Blackfish may be a propaganda film, but it's a damn good one. Of course it has it's own agenda, and doesn't present a balanced perspective. But it's still very moving, and many parts of it absolutely point to the willful neglect, ignorance and cruelty of the sea world corporation. They should 1000% not be breeding those animals in captivity, and not make additional moves to acquire new whales from other sources. It's shamful enough that they 'own' the number that they do all over the world. Those whales should not be in glorified swimming pools. If people on this board get so bent out of shape about a tang in a too small tank, how do you think those whales feel? I live 45 minutes from Sea world, and I will never go there again.

CODE3EMT
07/29/2014, 07:14 PM
Seaworld is a multi-billion dollar corporation, having said that..... by not going to the whale and dolphin shows will do nothing for the cause. The truth is, if you don't go to see the shows it's just another open seat for a family to get a closer look at these magnificent animals. Do I think a whale should be kept in a giant swimming pool.... of course not, but you are fighting an uphill battle that you will never win. This hobby as become very liberal in contrast to the days when I remember having a marine aquarium, perhaps none of us should ever own an aquarium for sake of the Percula Clown being pulled from the ocean so we can have it in our fish tank. These companies know what people want to see. People don't go to Six Flags to ride roller coasters, they go to see Shamu or Shooka the Killer Whale. In my opinion if an Orca goes Killer Whale on a trainer......well it's sad... but what else would you expect from a Killer Whale. These animals have a natural instinct, having them play with a ball and fed vitamin enriched mackerel will not change it's behavior. Sadly we see this on TV all the time. Guy taunts lion, guy feeds lion, guy gets to close to cage, lion grabs guy, lion kills guy, liberal media request the lion be shot and put down, family sues zoo for $10,000.000.00 The liberal media loves this stuff. I like Seaworld, would I continue to go if the whale and dolphin shows went away........ probably not. Seaworld is a major player in family entertainment and I would bet my Fusion 40 no one on this forum has the means or money to fight the big corporate guys. Just my opinion...... interesting reading though.

nicdu
07/29/2014, 07:44 PM
I may not have the means or the money to fight a big corporation. But they surely won't get MY money. And I can voice my opinion in forums like this one. Small steps can lead to big changes.

melvinakshay
07/29/2014, 10:09 PM
on the other side of the world - japanese hunt whales in the name of research and no one gives a damn. We only care about what SeaWorld is doing with a few orcas.

SwampyBill
07/29/2014, 10:36 PM
whales belong in the ocean.

+1,000 ^^^

hilgert
07/30/2014, 03:50 PM
Humans are intelligent, social, active creatures. As a human I would not want to spend my entire life in a room the size of a small room with no windows, and with my only view outside of the room being a few bobs into the air to look around at some place I cannot go.

Killer whales are intelligent, social, active creatures. I imagine killer whales would not want to live their entire life in a small pool with no windows, with their only view outside of the pool being a few bobs into the air to look around at some place they cannot go.

Killer whales are not dogs. Even if I never let my dogs out of my house they would have 100x more room than a killer whale does at Sea World (and of course I let them out and take them for walks all the time).

I've seen killer whales many times in the wild in Hawaii and the Northwest coast of the US. They are WAY more impressive when they surface a few yards from your boat (and especially when snorkeling) than when they jump out of a pool at SeaWorld.

Seeing Blackfish did not change how I felt...I felt that way before I saw it. Seeing Blackfish made me realize how hypocritical I was when I went to SeaWorld knowing what I already knew.

I don't fault SeaWorld for the past, but I am critical of them continuing to keep killer whales in captivity. If they were to announce tomorrow that they planned to never take on (or allow to breed) another killer whale I'd willingly walk right back into a SeaWorld park as long as they took care of the existing whales until their natural death (and maybe even continue to show them...it's what the whales "know" at this point).

With the abilities we have today with Alaska cruises, whale watching trips, HDTV shows, etc., there is no reason to house them in captivity. In other words, we need to advance beyond captive killer whales.

Dmorty217
07/30/2014, 05:08 PM
According to NOAA, the typical lifespan for male Orcinus orca is about 30 years. Females typically live around 50 years. They only talk about potentially up to 50-100 years. There seems to be a lot of variability in wild populations depending upon location, as well. Some populations seem to have shorter lifespans.

While captivity often isn't ideal for a great many animals, many (potentially most) of our animals included, the lessons that can be learned from them are substantial. The parks generate both revenue, research, and public awareness. I think the orcas at Seaworld receive close to the best care in captivity that is currently available. They have always been pretty active and seemingly happy in the many instances I've seen them there (Orlando). The enclosure/tank was definitely easy enough for them to turn around in. Of course, this is just how I viewed it and is anecodotal.

I'm very careful with Blackfish, FWIW.

Blackfish is a side that you rarely hear about. Regardless of your take on the views the fact that a man who had been to war and was still emotionally tore up about what he experienced while they corralled the babies to be taken away was very disturbing. The state of Washington didn't tell sea world to get [profanity] and ban them from catching orcas because they were doing a good thing or with good practices

billsreef
07/30/2014, 07:15 PM
Let's watch the language. If you need to cheat the censors with a few *, find a better word ;)

kurt_n
07/30/2014, 10:19 PM
...I imagine killer whales would not want to live their entire life in a small pool with no windows, with their only view outside of the pool being a few bobs into the air to look around at some place they cannot go.

Actually, a large portion of their tank in San Diego *is* a huge window where folks can watch them underwater.

I've seen killer whales many times in the wild in Hawaii and the Northwest coast of the US. They are WAY more impressive when they surface a few yards from your boat (and especially when snorkeling) than when they jump out of a pool at SeaWorld.

Having grown up in the Seattle area and seen them in the wild more times than I can count, and having just returned from SeaWorld in San Diego... I'll have to respectfully disagree. While it's amazing to watch a pod of Orcas feeding on salmon at the mouth of a stream/river in the wild, I'll have to say I was much more impressed at the strength and beauty of these creatures as I watched them "perform" at Seaworld.

Yes... I'll admit that while I watched, I thought to myself... "that's interesting, never seen that type of behavior/jumping in the wild"... and knew I was watching something that wasn't necessarily "natural" to them. But at the same time, the Orcas I was watching weren't even close to "wild".

My kids have seen dolphins and orcas in the wild. They've seen them at Seaworld. And I can tell you after Seaworld, they both came away with a new respect for them that they didn't have before. In fact, my little boy now wants to grow up and work to help dolphins. (But then, the next day he wanted to be a Lego MasterBuilder, so we'll see! :inlove: )

As the keeper of wild-caught saltwater fish in a 46g tank, I really can't bash Seaworld too much for what they're doing. Yes... they're a money-making machine, not a zoo. And we explained the difference to our kids when we were there. But at the same time, they seem to be doing a good job of trying to raise awareness of people about these creatures, just as I try to do when people come over to admire my reef-in-a-box.

jdmneon
07/30/2014, 11:42 PM
I think 90%+ of what sea-world does is positive, they teach a lot of people respect for and joy of the ocean that they didn't have before, how many kids walk out of there wanting to marine biologists? even if that sentiment only lasts a day or a week thats powerful. I think overall sea world has done a lot more harm than good, most of the animals I see there are in great condition, and they seem to do their best for them.

the killer whales are only a part of what they do, I have seen black-fish and even though it's propaganda I'm sure a lot of it is probably true, I have no problem with humans keeping orca's hypothetically but the enclosure would have to be like 100 times bigger at least than the facilities they have at sea-world, they don't meet the minimum tank size for that animal at all.

as for the whales themselves, that Tilikum whale is the one that did almost all of the damage, one crazy whale doesn't necessarily mean anything, it might have nothing to do with sea-world, humans have lunatics and murderers also, if killer whales are as smart as people think they are, I don't think its a stretch at all to say that he was just a bad apple, for all we know he would have been just as bad in the wild

Zoodiver
07/31/2014, 09:54 AM
Just wanted to add some food for thought from an inside perspective. (I should state up front that I do not currently, nor have I ever worked directly for Sea World. I have worked with them on non-orca related projects in the past, and I have been around other orcas not related to Sea World's group. I do have direct contact with many people who work with Sea World's orca program.):

Without reading all of the details in the comments, sadly both Blackfish and The Cove are full of bad info, made up info and skewed 'facts' to draw attention and make money. As someone who has been on the inside and the outside, they rank right up there with Sharknado for the level of actual truth to them. Of the 'experts' and ex-staff that Blackfish featured, most had been fired for not treating animals well, paid to be on camera or edited to twist the statements (and some are taking legal action over how they were lied to by producers). Some didn't even work there when Dawn's incident happened and didn't spend a day working with the orcas like they lead you to believe.

No parks in the US take wild marine mammals for display purposes anymore. They are only taken in for rescue/rehab. Collecting was done in a time when people didn't know any better (kind of like when women couldn't vote and we had public restrooms based on skin color). Yes, I'm serious about that. One post here was referencing the orca in Miami. That animal was under human care at a time when the park had big signs for the 'black only' and 'white only' restrooms. She is doing very well, and responds poorly to attempts to modify or change the area.

Today's marine life parks (with mammals) in the US are nothing like the activists are trying to sway the public into thinking. Animals lives are not cut short. Animals are not forced to do anything if they don't want to. Animals are always given food and any thing they need. Between USFW, USDA, AZA, Alliance of Marine Mammals, NOAA, state wildlife agencies and OSHA, parks are HIGHLY watched to ensure they are doing everything possible to provide the best care they can.

Tilikum didn't kill several people. This is a lie twisted into fact by activists. There were deaths associated with him, but when you know the facts instead of the lies, each is very understandable and the animal has done nothing wrong.

Let's look at real facts:

Orcas under Sea Worlds care live as long or longer on average compared to the average life span of a wild orca. You hear talk of a random orca living a long time as though all should. I also see humans hit 110. That is rare, not the standard to judge all by. Same is applied to orcas.

50% of orcas in the wild die as calves under a year old.

The knowledge gained from Sea World's orca programs has lead to dramatic changes in our ability to understand wild orcas, and help protect them world wide as well as improve our ability to keep them.

Yes, Sea World is a for profit business - like many parks. Why don't activists like to look at the amount of that profit invested into saving animals through the rescue / rehab / research end of the facility? Mostly because SW is doing huge amounts of it, and the activists wouldn't want the public to know the truth about the good SW is doing.

Talk of collecting wild orcas is not relevant in today's world. It hasn't been done in a very long time. Most of the marine mammals you see in today's parks have never seen the wild - nor could they survive there after being born into human care.

On that same note, the death rate of released orcas is 100%. Reintroduction is not like the activists want you to believe.


_______________________________

At the end of the day, do this: Research. Get the facts, not what the main stream media is trying to sway you with. Question where the info is coming from and what motives they have in presenting information/facts. From there, make you own choices.

alton
07/31/2014, 11:41 AM
Zoo Diver I like your post

Zoodiver
07/31/2014, 03:10 PM
Thanks.

It's a hard topic. I see the advantage of having bigger systems etc.... But the truth of it is that these animals are thriving how they are.

People like to twist opinion into facts or twist truth to fit what they feel. Most have never worked with the animals they claim to know about, or they worked for a limited time and didn't do well - so they feel to get back at the industry they need to attack it.

I also am well aware of the dangers of this line of work, and I'm sure all of the trainers know the dangers of working with large bodied animals. It is part of what we do.

For my specific area, I can tell you that these big predatory aquatic animals aren't even close to the monsters the media makes them out to be until I'm blue in the face to try and overcome the negative (and wrong) image the media gives them. Yet there hasn't been a single time I haven't stopped before going in close with a big sharks or crocs to think that this could be my last time.

After Steve was killed in '06, I always tell people if something happens to me, you make sure EVERYONE knows it wasn't the animals fault. It was a mistake I made in how I was in how I did my job. Learn from my mistake.

gone fishin
08/01/2014, 03:28 AM
For those of you who remember Paul Harvey, I feel like I just heard the rest of the story.

alton
08/01/2014, 05:04 AM
Well at least I am not the only old person on this forum "Good Day"

Zoodiver
08/01/2014, 06:36 AM
With the abilities we have today with Alaska cruises, whale watching trips, HDTV shows, etc., there is no reason to house them in captivity. In other words, we need to advance beyond captive killer whales.

This is a good point, and I was thinking about it last night. One of the original ideas behind large scale animal parks (and even going back to the mobile circus etc..) is bringing animals to the people who would otherwise never see them.
The other side to the coin is the 'in person' experience. To some extent, there is still that need. Many people cannot afford to see them in the wild. Sure you can see video and pics of them all over (for most people today), but there is something about seeing them in person.

It's like watching a Grand Am race on your sofa vs being in the pits (or if you get to encounter the animals first hand, like being in the passenger seat).

I will say one thing that comes up often is improving conditions. I think both sides agree that things can always be made better. I want to assure people on both sides that no facility is ever 'happy' with the way things are currently. We are constantly trying new methods and attempting to grow and expand the knowledge base we use for care of these types of animals. Just like guys with home fish tanks. When was the last time you met someone who said "I'm done, I know everything I have is the best it can be and I won't change a thing." in regards to their tank?

KafudaFish
08/01/2014, 07:25 AM
"Where are the animals? I cannot see them because the exhibit is too big!"

"Look how small that exhibit is! Those poor animals."

accordsirh22
08/01/2014, 12:21 PM
Just wanted to add some food for thought from an inside perspective. (I should state up front that I do not currently, nor have I ever worked directly for Sea World. I have worked with them on non-orca related projects in the past, and I have been around other orcas not related to Sea World's group. I do have direct contact with many people who work with Sea World's orca program.):

Without reading all of the details in the comments, sadly both Blackfish and The Cove are full of bad info, made up info and skewed 'facts' to draw attention and make money. As someone who has been on the inside and the outside, they rank right up there with Sharknado for the level of actual truth to them. Of the 'experts' and ex-staff that Blackfish featured, most had been fired for not treating animals well, paid to be on camera or edited to twist the statements (and some are taking legal action over how they were lied to by producers). Some didn't even work there when Dawn's incident happened and didn't spend a day working with the orcas like they lead you to believe.

No parks in the US take wild marine mammals for display purposes anymore. They are only taken in for rescue/rehab. Collecting was done in a time when people didn't know any better (kind of like when women couldn't vote and we had public restrooms based on skin color). Yes, I'm serious about that. One post here was referencing the orca in Miami. That animal was under human care at a time when the park had big signs for the 'black only' and 'white only' restrooms. She is doing very well, and responds poorly to attempts to modify or change the area.

Today's marine life parks (with mammals) in the US are nothing like the activists are trying to sway the public into thinking. Animals lives are not cut short. Animals are not forced to do anything if they don't want to. Animals are always given food and any thing they need. Between USFW, USDA, AZA, Alliance of Marine Mammals, NOAA, state wildlife agencies and OSHA, parks are HIGHLY watched to ensure they are doing everything possible to provide the best care they can.

Tilikum didn't kill several people. This is a lie twisted into fact by activists. There were deaths associated with him, but when you know the facts instead of the lies, each is very understandable and the animal has done nothing wrong.

Let's look at real facts:

Orcas under Sea Worlds care live as long or longer on average compared to the average life span of a wild orca. You hear talk of a random orca living a long time as though all should. I also see humans hit 110. That is rare, not the standard to judge all by. Same is applied to orcas.

50% of orcas in the wild die as calves under a year old.

The knowledge gained from Sea World's orca programs has lead to dramatic changes in our ability to understand wild orcas, and help protect them world wide as well as improve our ability to keep them.

Yes, Sea World is a for profit business - like many parks. Why don't activists like to look at the amount of that profit invested into saving animals through the rescue / rehab / research end of the facility? Mostly because SW is doing huge amounts of it, and the activists wouldn't want the public to know the truth about the good SW is doing.

Talk of collecting wild orcas is not relevant in today's world. It hasn't been done in a very long time. Most of the marine mammals you see in today's parks have never seen the wild - nor could they survive there after being born into human care.

On that same note, the death rate of released orcas is 100%. Reintroduction is not like the activists want you to believe.


_______________________________

At the end of the day, do this: Research. Get the facts, not what the main stream media is trying to sway you with. Question where the info is coming from and what motives they have in presenting information/facts. From there, make you own choices.

amen brother. anyone that is "animals rights" is not to be trusted. terrorists, the whole lot of them, spewing their propaganda lies and filth

Alexraptor
08/02/2014, 11:01 AM
Zoodiver, people like you are the reason we seriously need a "like" feature on the forum!

Whales belong in the ocean.
You do realise thats "exactly" what activists say about our fish and corals, right?

Zoodiver
08/02/2014, 01:27 PM
Zoodiver, people like you are the reason we seriously need a "like" feature on the forum!



Thanks!

thenewguy997
08/02/2014, 10:09 PM
Whales belong in the ocean.

Sometimes i watch my fish and think the same of them

Either you believe animals are here to serve as our amusement or yoy believe yhey are our equal and deserve to be free.

We argue about tank size but lets all be honest, unless you have a 400+ gallon tank you arent replicating a real reef

Zoodiver
08/03/2014, 08:06 AM
I've never seen reef in the wild contained to the same area as a 400 gallon tank.

thenewguy997
08/03/2014, 01:30 PM
No but its more realistic

Zoodiver
08/03/2014, 02:17 PM
Or the other option is that they aren't being used as amusement, but actually to expose people to the diverse amount of life our oceans contain. They are animal ambassadors who are educating the human population who otherwise wouldn't be exposed to them.

Ztrain
08/03/2014, 05:04 PM
It has always been entertaining to me when I hear people trying to instill their often miss guided morals on others. On one hand they'll sit there any complain about people taking animals out of the ocean. Then at the same time crying about how the coral reefs and their inhabitants will be extinct in the next 30 or so years. Okay so sounds like taking specimens and attempting to be able to grow and breed these in captivity to preserve them sounds like a good thing to me.

thenewguy997
08/03/2014, 11:57 PM
Animal ambassadors. Hm..

Zoodiver
08/04/2014, 05:30 AM
Ok, let me ask this to keep the discussion going:

If Sea World didn't have killer whales, how many people who know what they are?
Why are orcas in the media? Is it because they need help more than any other endangered marine mammal, or is it because people know what they are thanks to Sea World?

You can show the general public a picture of an orca, and 99% of them will know what it is instantly. Same with a bottle nose dolphin. Show them a beluga, and they'll probably know that as well. Show that same group a pilot whale, would they know what it is? How many could identify any more of the small whales or dolphins (especially those not in an exhibit for them to see)? Interesting that the three cetaceans you can commonly see in thriving in facilities are three most people will recognize.

Generally speaking from my experience, the animals people 'care' about are ones they know about. Facilities have exposed people to animals they otherwise wouldn't have seen.

Cu455
08/04/2014, 08:39 AM
Ok, let me ask this to keep the discussion going:

If Sea World didn't have killer whales, how many people who know what they are?


A lot. Check out the video below. Willy the most famous orca ever. Jesse is my hero. I just started crying when Willy jumped over him to freedom.

I do agree with you that it is an educational experience. I teach a class at the aquarium. The kids are 11-12 years old. When they come they have a great time. They learn more from the hands on and visual experience at the aquarium then they can every learn in a textbook or video. The experience they have now might lead them to further pursue an education or career in science. Since a lot of conservation effects depend on volunteers it is important to get people to want to help the environment.

Many of the aquariums and zoos by me are ran by the Wildlife Conservation Society which buys and manages land around the world for conservation and preservation. Lets not forget about the research and captive breeding which takes place their to. Reef Gen is a company that sells captive raised and breed fish. They run their operation out of the aquarium. It might not be feasible or economical for the average person or business to set up a program like that from scratch. They were able to do it with using the resources from the aquarium. If more aquariums did this it will greatly reduce the impact the hobby has on the environment.

Y6bSTWtAo0U

kurt_n
08/04/2014, 09:08 AM
...
Either you believe animals are here to serve as our amusement or yoy believe yhey are our equal and deserve to be free....



There's a lot of shades of gray in the world, not just the black and white you note.

Zoodiver
08/04/2014, 11:03 AM
Would they have made 'Free Willy' if people didn't identify with orcas previously?

thenewguy997
08/04/2014, 01:11 PM
So in your opinion people are stupid?

syrinx
08/04/2014, 02:03 PM
How many people care about Zoogoneticus tequila? very few, because they have no idea it ever existed. Zoos, sea worlds etc etc bring people in contact, educate, and further the conservation of species that otherwise would be ignored. If you asked someone in the 1900s what they thought of orcas being killed, their response would be likely much different than a person of this day and age. Thank sea world for that.

Zoodiver
08/04/2014, 04:18 PM
So in your opinion people are stupid?

If this was directed to me, in no way, shape or form did I say that.

m0nkie
08/04/2014, 05:56 PM
edit: nvm...

GreshamH
08/05/2014, 04:53 PM
A lot. Check out the video below. Willy the most famous orca ever. Jesse is my hero. I just started crying when Willy jumped over him to freedom.

I do agree with you that it is an educational experience. I teach a class at the aquarium. The kids are 11-12 years old. When they come they have a great time. They learn more from the hands on and visual experience at the aquarium then they can every learn in a textbook or video. The experience they have now might lead them to further pursue an education or career in science. Since a lot of conservation effects depend on volunteers it is important to get people to want to help the environment.

Many of the aquariums and zoos by me are ran by the Wildlife Conservation Society which buys and manages land around the world for conservation and preservation. Lets not forget about the research and captive breeding which takes place their to. Reef Gen is a company that sells captive raised and breed fish. They run their operation out of the aquarium. It might not be feasible or economical for the average person or business to set up a program like that from scratch. They were able to do it with using the resources from the aquarium. If more aquariums did this it will greatly reduce the impact the hobby has on the environment.

Y6bSTWtAo0U


Any AZA accredited facility (of which Long Island is not) cannot sell livestock and can only trade/sell to other AZA accredited facilities. The majority of Public Aquariums are members of AZA.

ReefGen only sells captive bred fish ;) They sell captive raised coral.

faulkincanyon
08/05/2014, 07:51 PM
watch this video on youtube from a former seaworld orcha trainer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX4GRC6L07w

Braver69
08/05/2014, 10:05 PM
Seaworld helps bring people closer to wildlife, including the whale shows that entertain the kids and adults. Heck I grew up with a stuffed killer whale from Seaworld. Without this interaction and showing the public what these animals can do then people become indifferent. Then Japan gets to whale to it's hearts content and things go down hill fast, heck you probally would not have got Star Trek Voyage Home without the whaling outrage at the time. The only reason people had this outrage was due to all the interaction and news articles related to Seaworld.

Knowledge makes people care, once people care positive things usually happen. It's a hobby we love so we all care about the animals and what happens to them, the average person looks at us and wonders why we spent all that cash on a glass cage.

Ztrain
08/05/2014, 11:10 PM
I knew nothing about the Great Barrier Reef or any other reefs dying until about Mid May when I started doing research for getting in to keeping a Salt Water Tank. Guarantee that that vast vast majority of the population doesn't care at all about what happens to the reefs. If you ask them they'd probably go ohh yeah I care about nature blah blah. But in reality most people don't care about what they don't know about.

Given that most people ignore activists. I see people gathering holding signs in protest and the first thing I do is my very best to ignore it whatever the issue. You want people to know and or care about a topic important to you, educate them. That's what aquariums do. Things like The Living Sea at Epcot or Sea World expose people to things they wouldn't normally go out and see for themselves. If you want people to care about stuff you have to present it to them. People simply can't care about what they don't know.

OpenRoad
08/06/2014, 01:03 AM
Using common sense, keeping an Orca in an enclosed pool for entertainment is great for entertainment but horrible for the Orca. They need an ocean to have a normal life. They are intelligent mammals, not fish. Our aquarium fish have no clue they are even in an aquarium. There's not really a comparison since we're talking big+mammal, vs small+fish.

I would be more likely to go to Sea World if they ditched the Ocras. Time is not on their side.

Zoodiver
08/06/2014, 07:04 AM
Using common sense, keeping an Orca in an enclosed pool for entertainment is great for entertainment but horrible for the Orca. They need an ocean to have a normal life. They are intelligent mammals, not fish. Our aquarium fish have no clue they are even in an aquarium. There's not really a comparison since we're talking big+mammal, vs small+fish.

I would be more likely to go to Sea World if they ditched the Orcas. Time is not on their side.

Not trying to argue, just looking for more info to see why you feel this way...

Where is the actual proof that is is 'horrible for the Orcas'? Where is the study showing that the animals SW has are suffering or neglected in anyway?

If they 'need an ocean', why is the captive born survival rate almost 90% higher for SW orca calves vs wild orca calves? Why is the average life span of SW orcas longer than the average life span of wild orcas?

hilgert
08/06/2014, 12:35 PM
Not trying to argue, just looking for more info to see why you feel this way...

Where is the actual proof that is is 'horrible for the Orcas'? Where is the study showing that the animals SW has are suffering or neglected in anyway?

If they 'need an ocean', why is the captive born survival rate almost 90% higher for SW orca calves vs wild orca calves? Why is the average life span of SW orcas longer than the average life span of wild orcas?

I think "length of life" needs to be balanced with "quality of life". I'm not arguing one way or the other...I'm just suggesting there are many sides to this. Certainly they would not know the difference, having spent their life in a small pond, so they may or may not be "happy" (not sure how you would even measure that).

I can see this many ways...but ultimately I'm concerned that killer whales don't belong in relatively confined spaces (certainly I hope nobody would argue that this is their "natural" habitat...just like reefers a cannot argue our small tanks are a Yellow Tangs "natural" habitat).

I'd feel better if the areas killer whales are kept in were 10x the size/volume (more "run room"). This is my view of other other zoo animals as well...my favorite zoos are the ones that have large animals in spacious areas (new thinking) instead of small boxed-in areas (old thinking). I think there would be some interesting things Sea World could do with this concept with more underwater viewing, etc.

Zoodiver
08/06/2014, 01:13 PM
I agree that quality of life is the prime concern. From my experience, there is no issue with the quality of life being lead by the animals in question. Quality of these animals lives is based on over all health and indications of stress.

As for space, when SW Orlando opens up all of the various pools and lets the whales roam into any of them, the orcas often show they prefer pools other than the largest to spend their time in. They have the choice to use any or all of the space. I'm not saying more space is a bad thing, but it hasn't been proven they need it to lead an enriched and healthy life vs. what they currently have.

Massive amounts of space isn't new thinking vs old thinking. It's a matter of advancements in our ability to provide better care in the proper sized areas according to the animals needs. It's a balancing act. There is a point where too big becomes a major health risk for the animals because it cuts into the ability for us to offer proper care. If you give a 3" fish a million gallons, can you provide proper care? Can you see if often to do visual checks? Can you make sure it's eating? At this point, the areas SW provides it's orca population haven't been proven to have a negative impact on their lives.

The other thing is that people often say "I feel like..." or I would feel better if...". Though the comment maybe reflect a true feeling, these statements have nothing to do with the animals or their well being, but instead humans projecting their emotions onto them. It's not about what humans want, it's about providing for the animals in our care.

Shawn O
08/06/2014, 04:27 PM
If they 'need an ocean', why is the captive born survival rate almost 90% higher for SW orca calves vs wild orca calves? Why is the average life span of SW orcas longer than the average life span of wild orcas?

The survival rate of any animal increases with a decrease of predators. I would imagine SW does not allow other animals into the Orca tanks that would eat young Orcas.

syrinx
08/06/2014, 06:48 PM
If they are breeding in captivity- then their needs are being met.

syrinx
08/06/2014, 07:01 PM
Using common sense, keeping an Orca in an enclosed pool for entertainment is great for entertainment but horrible for the Orca. They need an ocean to have a normal life. They are intelligent mammals, not fish. Our aquarium fish have no clue they are even in an aquarium. There's not really a comparison since we're talking big+mammal, vs small+fish.

I would be more likely to go to Sea World if they ditched the Ocras. Time is not on their side.


How does a captive bred whale know it would rather be in the ocean? As far as it knows it is in its natural habitat. And who decides what a better life is? Maybe whales like to be lazy, not be preyed upon, have healthcare, and have all their food subsidized. I do think this is one of those cases where everyone has a right to their opinion-and I respect them all. But from the science standpoint, I think the animals are well cared for-and the research and public awareness exceeds the potential damage done to a few individuals.

Cu455
08/06/2014, 07:36 PM
If they are breeding in captivity- then their needs are being met.

They aren't naturally breeding. Some guy or girl jerks the male off and captures the sperm. Then they drop it in the overies or near the eggs. I have nothing against artificial insemination but there is a difference between that and having it occur with no direct human contact.

faulkincanyon
08/06/2014, 07:47 PM
Cheetahs can run 70 mph and are kept in small pins all over the united states in places called zoos....whats the difference? Yea they don't need to run now because someone is throwing meat in the cage...whales don't have to swim as far because fish are thrown in their mouths.

alexx2208
08/06/2014, 08:34 PM
Using common sense, keeping an Orca in an enclosed pool for entertainment is great for entertainment but horrible for the Orca. They need an ocean to have a normal life. They are intelligent mammals, not fish. Our aquarium fish have no clue they are even in an aquarium. There's not really a comparison since we're talking big+mammal, vs small+fish.

I would be more likely to go to Sea World if they ditched the Ocras. Time is not on their side.

Comments like this make me think... What do you guys want them to do with these orcas?!?!? There now locked into a facility, and there's a 99.9% chance of death if put into wild.... We've already made the mistake of keeping them, and we now need to take care of the animals we've taken in our care...

People need to understand that if laws like the California senator wants to put through will allow sw to keep the kws, but aren't allowed to let them artificially breed, or show them to the public... So how does this help anyone?

No one can see the animals, while sw can't make money for upgrades.... Which would probably even make the treatment of the kws more worse then now since they won't be able to make money from them, and their facilities will probably be neglected.

Alexraptor
08/06/2014, 09:08 PM
Using common sense, keeping an Orca in an enclosed pool for entertainment is great for entertainment but horrible for the Orca. They need an ocean to have a normal life. They are intelligent mammals, not fish. Our aquarium fish have no clue they are even in an aquarium. There's not really a comparison since we're talking big+mammal, vs small+fish.

I would be more likely to go to Sea World if they ditched the Ocras. Time is not on their side.

This is quite frankly not true.
Fish aren't the dumb animals with 3 second memories many people seem to assume they are, its nothing more than a myth.
They possess remarkable intelligence, and definitely are just as well aware of their confines and environment as any captive marine mammal, some more so than others.

I still remember my rainbow fish i had some years ago.
They were quite small and at a glance could easily fit in a small 5g tank, but the reality was quite another.
Confined in such a small space they became frantic and panicky, and kept flying into the glass at breakneck speed and would not stop, no matter what.
They didn't calm down and become content until I moved them over to a 27g tank, even though to them it was like putting a P. Volitans in a swimming pool.

So yes, fish can definitely know that they are in an aquarium, and not the ocean or a lake.

Ztrain
08/07/2014, 12:59 AM
Maybe whales like to be lazy, not be preyed upon, have healthcare, and have all their food subsidized.

Screw the whales I'd like that!!!!!!

Zoodiver
08/07/2014, 06:37 AM
The survival rate of any animal increases with a decrease of predators. I would imagine SW does not allow other animals into the Orca tanks that would eat young Orcas.

The main reason orca calves are dying in the wild isn't from predators. They die from health issues.

They aren't naturally breeding. Some guy or girl jerks the male off and captures the sperm. Then they drop it in the overies or near the eggs. I have nothing against artificial insemination but there is a difference between that and having it occur with no direct human contact.

It's a mix of natural breeding and artificial. Artificial is only used in a handful of cases where genetics are being preserved.

BrianD
08/07/2014, 09:22 AM
So in your opinion people are stupid?

If this was directed to me, in no way, shape or form did I say that.

No, you did not. Some of you need to take about 5 steps back and ease up on the moral outrage.

GreshamH
08/07/2014, 05:25 PM
Comments like this make me think... What do you guys want them to do with these orcas?!?!? There now locked into a facility, and there's a 99.9% chance of death if put into wild.... We've already made the mistake of keeping them, and we now need to take care of the animals we've taken in our care...

People need to understand that if laws like the California senator wants to put through will allow sw to keep the kws, but aren't allowed to let them artificially breed, or show them to the public... So how does this help anyone?

No one can see the animals, while sw can't make money for upgrades.... Which would probably even make the treatment of the kws more worse then now since they won't be able to make money from them, and their facilities will probably be neglected.


People really don't have much of a clue what else SW does. They aren't just an amusement park... lots of critical research is done there, and at their sister facilities. http://www.hswri.org/

syrinx
08/07/2014, 06:39 PM
This is quite frankly not true.
Fish aren't the dumb animals with 3 second memories many people seem to assume they are, its nothing more than a myth.
They possess remarkable intelligence, and definitely are just as well aware of their confines and environment as any captive marine mammal, some more so than others.

I still remember my rainbow fish i had some years ago.
They were quite small and at a glance could easily fit in a small 5g tank, but the reality was quite another.
Confined in such a small space they became frantic and panicky, and kept flying into the glass at breakneck speed and would not stop, no matter what.
They didn't calm down and become content until I moved them over to a 27g tank, even though to them it was like putting a P. Volitans in a swimming pool.

So yes, fish can definitely know that they are in an aquarium, and not the ocean or a lake.

You state that fish are intelligent, and are well aware of their confines. Then you state that they kept flying into the glass at breakneck speed and would not stop. That really does not denote that they are well aware of their confines-nor that they have the ability to learn to navigate them. What it means is that they have an instinctual fright response to being trapped, and lack the intelligence to overcome it.

If those fish would have hatched into that system, the result would have been very different. A captive born whale does not know that there is an ocean.

Alexraptor
08/08/2014, 06:08 AM
You state that fish are intelligent, and are well aware of their confines. Then you state that they kept flying into the glass at breakneck speed and would not stop. That really does not denote that they are well aware of their confines-nor that they have the ability to learn to navigate them. What it means is that they have an instinctual fright response to being trapped, and lack the intelligence to overcome it.

If those fish would have hatched into that system, the result would have been very different. A captive born whale does not know that there is an ocean.

Even humans are prone to having instinct override their rational and intelligent thought processes.
If a human being were forcefully locked into a small closet against his or her will, there would be a good chance that eventually the person in question would frantically try to find a way out.
Some people who have been trapped have even been discovered with completely bloody fingers from their ordeal.

The point I was trying to make, is that fish are as capable of understanding that they are in a small and confined space, rather than larger body of water such as a huge lake or river, as any other animal.
But as you say, if they were born in that small space, they would know nothing else, and that notion applies pretty much to every living being with a modicum of intelligence.

northernreefe
08/08/2014, 07:46 AM
Zoodiver is the voice of reason...thx for what I believe to be an unbiased and honest account.

Zoodiver
08/08/2014, 09:50 AM
Thanks. I try to see if from all sides. The problem is that both sides won't be 100% up front. Some of the people wanting to free marine mammals will twist info to fit what they want, or make up 'facts' that aren't even true. They have some good points, like clearly the biggest space possible is best. That being said, 99.99% of activists don't understand what the best/biggest space really is because they aren't educated enough about the proper care of the animals. Usually (and this is just from person experience) when you offer to show them and talk to them about it, they come into it with such a negative mindset that they won't listen or understand.

On the other side, the parks can't really 'attack' back as they are being attacked. They will ignore and just keep doing what they do - educating and keeping people excited about animals to make sure we keep them around for the next generations.

Sadly, due to all of the 'attacks' and negative media many won't even openly talk about what they do for fear that the truth will get twisted and used against them somehow. Suddenly, the activists will turn that around and try to use the silence against them.

There is a lot of good going on at the facilities that most people will never know about. I'd love to see a big documentary about aquatic animal rescue and rehab to give people a look at the extensive work that facilities all over put into that. Sadly that makes no money, so you probably won't see it from a major production company. (Just like Shark Week moved away from education and excitement to promote attacks and blood.)

I'd love to be able to post pics and more openly talk about some of the animals we pulled in from the edge of life and patched back together. It would illustrate that most of the facilities out there are dedicated to keeping animals alive, not keeping them as slaves for profit.

mandarin_goby
08/08/2014, 09:22 PM
If they are breeding in captivity- then their needs are being met.

That's what puppy mill owners say. There's more to life than having babies.

A betta *can* live in a cup - is it a "good" life? No way.

No matter what is said here, I think most people have already made up their minds. I do like hearing other points of view, but I won't be going to Sea World.

Plucking perfectly healthy orcas from the wild so our kids can ooh and ahh at them seems selfish. I may never see a blue whale in the wild, but I still respect them. I'd rather see wild whales/orcas over ones in captivity any day, but my world won't end if I never ever see one in my lifetime.

Sk8r
08/09/2014, 12:42 PM
If, however, you can catch the attention of a person who thereafter will be in favor of wild cetaceans and care passionately about them---that in itself can matter to the survival of a species whose greatest enemy is us. Moby Dick was the standard of American concern for cetaceans until the popularization of dolphins in media and personal contact at the parks began to change that.

faulkincanyon
08/09/2014, 06:51 PM
Mandarin Gobies should probably be left in the wild as well....but either way the world will not end if one chooses to put one in an aquarium. It is what it is.

mandarin_goby
08/09/2014, 07:24 PM
It's just a name, but thanks anyways.

I get conservation efforts, for endangered species like pandas, but orcas in captivity? No.

Cu455
08/09/2014, 07:30 PM
It's just a name, but thanks anyways.



and avatar. There is no reason to glamorize the keeping of mandrins. They are better left in the ocean and no one should have one. Even the captive breed ones. Between culling, not eating and natural deaths lots of mandarins just so you can have a colorful fish in your tank. That doesn't sounds like responsible fish keeping.

faulkincanyon
08/09/2014, 07:36 PM
I did not mean to cause a stir...just stating that everyone has opinions and this conversation about whales and such will not go anywhere...my apologies.

mandarin_goby
08/09/2014, 08:03 PM
They're pretty, and so are horses, but I don't have one of those. Wow, what weak arguments if all you have to go on is a name and an avatar. Sad.

faulkincanyon
08/09/2014, 08:09 PM
Horses run wild yet are kept in stables until money comes and are raced around a track...not much difference.

mandarin_goby
08/09/2014, 08:31 PM
Is that really all you have? I guess we should all keep such things in mind when choosing a name/avatar. How silly.

faulkincanyon
08/09/2014, 08:56 PM
Well what arguments do you have for sea world doing harm other than he say she say...well unless I guess you speak orcha in that case please tell us all how different it is than any other animal in a zoo or captivity in much smaller enclosures than the real world...birds have the whole sky and are kept in a cage....so basically were all wrong for keeping animals period...whether it be a mouse in a cage a beta in a bowel or a whale in a several million gallon tank..oh well life goes on.

mandarin_goby
08/09/2014, 09:09 PM
Well, if I cared enough to argue any more, I would, but it's pointless.

Go see the pretty orcas in their tiny confines. Enjoy!

Boboli
08/09/2014, 09:19 PM
Love the palce! Great upclose experience.
If i didnt agree with there practices I could not have an aquarium!

billsreef
08/10/2014, 04:37 AM
[flamealert]...

Cu455
08/10/2014, 12:55 PM
well, if i cared enough to argue any more, i would, but it's pointless.

Go see the pretty orcas in their tiny confines. Enjoy!

<i><br>here at reef central, we believe that dialogs between participants should be conducted in a friendly and helpful manner. If you disagree with a posting, please express yourself in a way that is conducive to further constructive dialog. Conversely, when you post on any given subject, you must be willing to accept constructive criticism without posting a hostile or inflammatory response. Personal attacks of any kind will not be tolerated. Please work to insure that reef central remains a friendly and flame free site where everyone, especially newcomers, can feel free to post questions without fear of being unfairly criticized. Thank you for your cooperation.</i>...

+1

CODE3EMT
08/10/2014, 01:58 PM
Can we put Obama in a closet for 10 years and then release him back into the general public............:deadhorse:

Alexraptor
08/10/2014, 07:50 PM
and avatar. There is no reason to glamorize the keeping of mandrins. They are better left in the ocean and no one should have one. Even the captive breed ones. Between culling, not eating and natural deaths lots of mandarins just so you can have a colorful fish in your tank. That doesn't sounds like responsible fish keeping.

Mandarins do perfectly fine in captivity with the proper care and attention, just like any other fish.
And while people are impulsive and get them without knowing what they are getting themselves into, it is hardly a problem that is exclusive to the mandarins and can in fact be applied to pretty much all the animals people keep.
Not all fish are suitable for everyone, but that does not mean nobody should be allowed to have them at all.

- Proud owner of a fat and plump female mandarin.

Cu455
08/10/2014, 08:09 PM
Mandarins do perfectly fine in captivity with the proper care and attention, just like any other fish.
And while people are impulsive and get them without knowing what they are getting themselves into, it is hardly a problem that is exclusive to the mandarins and can in fact be applied to pretty much all the animals people keep.
Not all fish are suitable for everyone, but that does not mean nobody should be allowed to have them at all.

- Proud owner of a fat and plump female mandarin.

I guess you missed the irony being pointed out. I didn't even mention impulse buyers. I gave culling, natural causes and starvation as excuses for dying.

syrinx
08/10/2014, 09:47 PM
he misses irony. again a post where he says it they can be kept perfectly fine- and then says his is plump and fat. Obesity is not generally a sign of health. I am just joking of course! I understand the point he was making, as well as every one elses.

AZBigJohn
08/12/2014, 08:42 PM
I actually just got back from a vacation to San Diego, including 2 days a Sea World San Diego. I admit to it having always having been a favorite spot since childhood, and a prime reason fish, the ocean and reefing is what it is to me.

The behind the scenes tours have fascinated me since my teens, and I could probably almost lead one myself I've taken them so many times. That is where I began to see SW for what it truly was, which was bigger than the public persona so many others saw it as.

I am saddened to see this thread has devolved recently; I always enjoy intelligent discussions, and hate when personal attacks cause moderators to stop the discussions.

Thanks, ZooDiver for your many excellent additions to the discussion!

thenewguy997
08/13/2014, 12:50 PM
Cheetahs dont need to run 70 in a cage...

so what im going to do is keep a dog in a closet.

Itll be well fed and ill cram a female in there so itll breed

Itll live longer than wild dogs and breed succesfully so obviously its a good thing to do

But then the same ppl supporting an orca in a pool will take my dog

Im sure my fish would rather be in the ocean

Im not against zoos or seaworld im against the thinking that animals are happier or better off in there. When you go to these places you are,seeing a small scale imitation. Some of us cant afford to go to africa but when i see that
Heetah laying there bored i know hes not happy. The snow leopards at my zoo have a cage the size of my room. So lets be,realistic here. These animals have a shitty life only there for entertainment and thats,reality.

Were talking about millions of years of evolution to adapt to a certain environment and just because a handful of orcas did better is besides the point.

Zoodiver
08/13/2014, 01:04 PM
Cheetahs dont need to run 70 in a cage...

so what im going to do is keep a dog in a closet.

Itll be well fed and ill cram a female in there so itll breed

Itll live longer than wild dogs and breed succesfully so obviously its a good thing to do

But then the same ppl supporting an orca in a pool will take my dog

Im sure my fish would rather be in the ocean

Im not against zoos or seaworld im against the thinking that animals are happier or better off in there


This is hardly a balanced comparison or I hope these are tongue-in-cheek comments.

Why do Cheetahs run 70? To catch food.
Do they always run 70? No.
How often do they run 70? Only when they absolutely need to, and some never do in their entire lifetime.
If given the chance, would a Cheetah NOT run 70 if it found a way to catch prey easier? Yes.

The term "cramming a female in there so it will breed" is hardly a way to get them to do so. Even rabbits won't breed if you 'cram them in there' - and if rabbits are know for anything it's breeding.

thenewguy997
08/13/2014, 01:10 PM
I have a fish tank. And i go to the zoo. But dont give me that crap about theyre better off.

If you honestly believe that why dont people like being in jail

thenewguy997
08/13/2014, 01:17 PM
Zoodiver, you said above that 100% of orcas die if released.

How do you know?

How many have been released? A few?

We would need an enormous sample size. Lets release 100k and i bet that number is false

GreshamH
08/13/2014, 03:02 PM
Zoodiver, you said above that 100% of orcas die if released.

How do you know?

How many have been released? A few?

We would need an enormous sample size. Lets release 100k and i bet that number is false

Given how many are in captivity, np, you wouldn't need such an insanely high sample size.

Cu455
08/13/2014, 08:55 PM
Cheetahs dont need to run 70 in a cage...

so what im going to do is keep a dog in a closet.

Itll be well fed and ill cram a female in there so itll breed

Itll live longer than wild dogs and breed succesfully so obviously its a good thing to do

But then the same ppl supporting an orca in a pool will take my dog

Im sure my fish would rather be in the ocean

Im not against zoos or seaworld im against the thinking that animals are happier or better off in there. When you go to these places you are,seeing a small scale imitation. Some of us cant afford to go to africa but when i see that
Heetah laying there bored i know hes not happy. The snow leopards at my zoo have a cage the size of my room. So lets be,realistic here. These animals have a shitty life only there for entertainment and thats,reality.

Were talking about millions of years of evolution to adapt to a certain environment and just because a handful of orcas did better is besides the point.

I don't think keeping a dog in a closet is the same as the orcas in a pool. it's more like keeping a dog in a small house and cleaning the house everyday, having vets check on him daily and having excellent air quality. The house will also have other dogs he can play with, a grass patch and a indoor pool. The dogs will also have a trainer play frisbee so he gets exercise.

Cu455
08/13/2014, 08:57 PM
I wonder if this thread had anything to do with this.


Shares of the theme park operator plunged nearly 33% Wednesday after it reported weak earnings and lackluster attendance for the year, especially at its flagship destination theme parks in San Diego and Orlando.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/13/investing/seaworld-earnings

CODE3EMT
08/14/2014, 05:43 AM
In our economies weak state and many people loosing jobs. I highly doubt this thread had anything to do with that. Families simply can't afford these pleasures anymore. Remember let's say for instance......... you have a billion dollars in your bank account and you loose 300 million your going to feel as though the world is ending. To others, they may say it's not a loss at all. The rich do not like to loose.

Zoodiver
08/14/2014, 06:00 AM
Zoodiver, you said above that 100% of orcas die if released.

How do you know?

How many have been released? A few?

We would need an enormous sample size. Lets release 100k and i bet that number is false

For 100,000 to be released as a sample, you'd need four times that being held. So that means instead of a few orcas at Sea World, you'd take more than the worlds population out of the wild just to test the theory.

Yes, I know you were being sarcastic, but that's kind of the point. "Facts" that are tongue in cheek are what the activist's claims are based on. They form opinion based on feeling or emotion, not on real world information and facts.

Marine mammal release is not an easy process. I've been part of several rehab/release programs over the years. Getting an animal from a point of 100% human care to 100% independent is not an easy task. My wife is still currently in that end of the field.

It's already been proven that orcas under human care don't have the ability to survive or thrive when introduced to similar conditions as they would be faced with if released.

BlueFyre
08/14/2014, 06:49 AM
I hope to some day go north and see orcas in the wild. I have seen humpbacks in the wild and it was the experience of a lifetime. Nothing in a zoo gives quite the same magic.

But I still go to zoos and aquariums. I love going. I love seeing the animals and learning more about them.

As for seaworld, well I don't think the are 100% evil or 100% good. They are a business but the also do a lot for conservation. I won't go, it just seems too much like a theme park and less like a educational experience. But that's me.

Personally I think they should not be breeding these whales but should continue to keep the ones they have. Give them the best care they can in captivity and leave it at that. Whales are big. That's the bottom line. I just don't think we can give them enough space. That's not even considering their intelligence and complex social lives.

I don't see seaworld changing anything. It's too profitable for them. Maybe if less people end up going they would change things. Who knows. With the internet you can learn just about anything you want and don't need to see these animals in person to appreciate them.
It is still fun to see animals though :)

thenewguy997
08/14/2014, 12:53 PM
I still.havent gotten a number on how many have been released im sure its miniscule

Im also not an activist but we are all activists supporting whatever side is right in our own mind

maoiwowie
08/14/2014, 05:13 PM
Its all about the bottom line $$$. Seaworld is here to make money and increase value for their shareholders first and foremost. Please dont be fooled by anything otherwise. All the saving, campaigning, and conservation is because it helps them to be even more profitable. We know this because they are a corporation traded on the NYSE... Its major shareholder is The Blackstone Group, you know the hedge fund / private equity guys. If it becomes unprofitable to keep the Orcas they will get rid of them... quickly. And it looks like thats the trend. The stock is tanking and I dont believe it is coincidence. WE are making a difference whether it is misguided or misinformed. I feel better by not contributing to Seaworld and lining the pockets of their shareholders. I will continue to support this cause as it stands.

GreshamH
08/14/2014, 05:39 PM
"even though its built on lies, I still support the cause"

wow....

syrinx
08/14/2014, 06:48 PM
Remember if you ban the keeping of the whales, then you also are losing the genetic bank in case there is some sort of natural whale disaster. Even though social pack animals that were born in captivity and had constant human contact, cannot survive release to repopulate, having uninfected animals to do research on could prevent calamity.

Tahiti
08/15/2014, 04:58 AM
I agree Orcas should be in the ocean. Sad to see them in a small inclosure doing flips.

Zoodiver
08/15/2014, 05:23 AM
I still.havent gotten a number on how many have been released im sure its miniscule

Im also not an activist but we are all activists supporting whatever side is right in our own mind

Yes, it's not a large number. Mostly because experts working with them realize that they won't live.


Its all about the bottom line $$$. Seaworld is here to make money and increase value for their shareholders first and foremost. Please dont be fooled by anything otherwise. All the saving, campaigning, and conservation is because it helps them to be even more profitable. We know this because they are a corporation traded on the NYSE... Its major shareholder is The Blackstone Group, you know the hedge fund / private equity guys. If it becomes unprofitable to keep the Orcas they will get rid of them... quickly. And it looks like thats the trend. The stock is tanking and I dont believe it is coincidence. WE are making a difference whether it is misguided or misinformed. I feel better by not contributing to Seaworld and lining the pockets of their shareholders. I will continue to support this cause as it stands.

This is only true to a point. Yes, SW and many other places are 'for profit'. However, it's not "all about money". In fact the "saving, campaigning and conservation" is not a money maker at all. It wouldn't be happening without the money coming in from ticket sales. Things don't always have to be one sided. In reality, you have it backwards. All of the fund raising and attempts to make more money is so they can be more effective at caring for the animals and expanding the rehab/research end of it.

I base my career on animals. I am 'for profit' - as it puts food on the table and a roof over my family. Does that mean I'm NOT doing it because I love animals, and want future generations to have them around? No, not at all. Does that mean I'm NOT going to fight for what is in the best interest of the animals? No, not at all.

------------------------------------------------

Lose facilities like SW that are willing to spend their money on saving animals, and we lose animals. Period. The number of saved/rehab'd animals is in the thousands yearly just from that one company. As someone who has stood at the front lines, we would be far worse off when it comes to our ability to protect the wild populations of animals if places like this didn't exist. Sea turtle clings to life twisted up in a loose net, who do you call? Manatee hit by a boat and bleeding out, who do you call? Mass whale standings on the coast, who do you call? Dolphins showing up sick from pollution, who do you call? Shark found laying almost dead on a beach with hooks lodged in it's stomach, who do you call?

Say what you will, SW is very stable. They aren't going anywhere any time soon.

maoiwowie
08/15/2014, 08:31 AM
I understand all the good will in individuals. After all i do believe most of us are good at heart, but my point is I believe everything that a corporation does at its baseline, is driven by profits... If it doesnt make help make money, its not part of the business plan. Shareholders are not investing in charities, if that were the case they would simply donate their money. The good-will, research programs get us in the gates. The programs may look pure with their feel good intentions, but again i believe it helps make the parks money in the long run.

Most of us truly care for the animals along with the scientist, the conservationist, etc... im not disputing this... im only basing my view that when these individuals are in a corporate collective and are also getting paid, it is and must be profit driven, and this is easily corrupted... and unfortunately I believe we are all drinking the Kool-Aid when we actually think that the people that run Wall Street and Seaworld cares more about the animals than dollars, when all is said and done.

KafudaFish
08/15/2014, 09:43 AM
I understand all the good will in individuals. After all i do believe most of us are good at heart, but my point is I believe everything that a corporation does at its baseline, is driven by profits... If it doesnt make help make money, its not part of the business plan. Shareholders are not investing in charities, if that were the case they would simply donate their money. The good-will, research programs get us in the gates. The programs may look pure with their feel good intentions, but again i believe it helps make the parks money in the long run.

Most of us truly care for the animals along with the scientist, the conservationist, etc... im not disputing this... im only basing my view that when these individuals are in a corporate collective and are also getting paid, it is and must be profit driven, and this is easily corrupted... and unfortunately I believe we are all drinking the Kool-Aid when we actually think that the people that run Wall Street and Seaworld cares more about the animals than dollars, when all is said and done.

The problem with many 503c organizations is they have a great mission and want to do wonderful things to improve an area or aspect of the world.

The problem is some don't understand that even though they are "for non-profit", it takes being a business mentality to operate as one.

When the economy tanked non-profits took a hit because people had to stop giving. Then everyone was looking at the same places such as federal grants and programs. The number of applicants increased ten fold and that made it even harder.

For a nonprofit to be considered an efficient organization the magic number is 35% overhead. If you went over and hit say 50% you were out of the running.

Furthermore if you are leading an environmental cause vs a human one that human one has a face and that pulls on people's heart strings and wallets more so than animals or clean water.

At least orcas are highly intelligent and have a face to get people interested in their cause.

Back to your point yes there are people who work at SW that care little for the animals but how different is that than any other business?

It is good to have a heart and have passion for something but that doesn't pay for necessities at the end of the month.

Heathcoot
08/15/2014, 10:12 AM
well blackfish was huge about my decision on big stuff in aquariums, most are breed in captivity but for the first ones it was sad. as far as it goes for all of us i have been in this hobby since i was 10, and i was not very good at it i killed off my first tank! but it made me tare it down and read and started over and now i run my very own shop with over 1,777 gallons in the shop and i take care of every dang tank like it was a science project testing changes dosing list goes on i do have help but in my opinion all this should still be left in the ocean at the same time tho if we are bringing this stuff in to put into our little glass boxes, we need to try and take care of it to the best of our knowledge and care , i feel we can try and save or help the ocean just by us fragging are own stuff and cutting back on the collection of our reefs, or we could also help by re-populating the oceans reefs where needed just in case something crazy in the ocean was to happen. but again im not an expert i know what i know and try and continue to learn from my experiences.

maoiwowie
08/15/2014, 10:31 AM
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/seaworld-upgrade-killer-whale-habitats-080400775.html

Its happening... The corporates are opening their eyes because they are losing money!

billsreef
08/15/2014, 10:40 AM
Reading the article, I note that while attendance has declined (likely due to ticket prices more than anything) and the stock has dropped, revenues have actually increased...

maoiwowie
08/15/2014, 10:48 AM
Seaworld can spin it anyway they like. But i do not think that this "revolutionary" shift and the need to spend millions on new facilities has anything to do with the good-will and animal welfare. You are correct... they made money, but they are not meeting expected revenue and growth.

alton
08/15/2014, 02:18 PM
Seaworld can spin it anyway they like. But i do not think that this "revolutionary" shift and the need to spend millions on new facilities has anything to do with the good-will and animal welfare. You are correct... they made money, but they are not meeting expected revenue and growth.

Some people are never happy

maoiwowie
08/15/2014, 03:04 PM
How did you know? I am unhappy... but it has nothing to do with Seaworld. I was just opining. I have real problems like hair algae, poor polyp extension, and poor colors on some of my sps. "Never" is a long time... i hope this changes for me.

Cu455
08/15/2014, 04:12 PM
SeaWorld is giving its killer whales a little more space.

The amusement park company said it will double the size of the animals' habitats at its three parks. The first of the new killer whale exhibits will open to the public*in San Diego in 2018.

New habitats will roll out at its other two locations in Orlando, Fla., and San Antonio will follow at some point after that.

The move comes amid a backlash following the release of*Blackfish, a documentary aired by CNN that examined SeaWorld's treatment of the animals in a heavily critical light and questioned whether they should be held in captivity at all.

Related: SeaWorld responds to CNN's questions about its orca treatmentIn a news release, SeaWorld said that the new enclosures, dubbed the "Blue World Project," will add 5 million gallons to the killer whale tank create a maximum depth of 50 feet and simulate underwater currents as well.The new exhibit will also feature a simulated shoreline.

The company also said it will donate $10 million to study the welfare of killer whales in the wild and start a yet-to-be-disclosed "multi-million partnership focused on protecting the ocean."

http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/15/news/sea-world-whale-habitats/

Cu455
08/15/2014, 04:16 PM
OP this would have never happened without you. Who would of thought your thread will be so influential.

Zoodiver
08/15/2014, 04:18 PM
Like I said, they aren't hurting financially and they are working towards always improving. The bottom line is they are making money to do better for the animals. If you want to think the bottom line is money - then yes, it is....because they need it to do the work for the animals.

SW's website (info and artist concept drawings)
http://blueworldproject.seaworld.com/

CNN's article:
http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/15/news/sea-world-whale-habitats/


They are also donating $10 million to wild orca preservation and research along with another large scale multi-million dollar partnership to be announced.

Zoodiver
08/15/2014, 04:18 PM
Haha, looks like everyone is seeing the article and can type faster than I can.

maoiwowie
08/15/2014, 04:39 PM
Zoodiver... I respect your position; your profession. We can agree to disagree on what drives their money machine whether altruistic or corporate greed. Either way we are evolving and our understanding of this world is growing. Cirque du Soleil revolutionized the circus and with it the advent of non-animal focused entertainment. I hope SeaWorld can do something of the same. It looks like they are responding to the public's changing attitudes of animal welfare, even if i believe its money driven. They are moving in the right direction and that is a good thing.

gone fishin
08/15/2014, 08:27 PM
I believe it does not matter whether SW is driven by money or altruistic motives. They are making changes. However there will always be some that are not satisfied until every animal is back in the wild.

Cu455
08/15/2014, 09:03 PM
[QUOTE=maoiwowie;23020337Cirque du Soleil revolutionized the circus and with it the advent of non-animal focused entertainment. I hope SeaWorld can do something of the same.[/QUOTE]

That's exactly what I want to go see an aquarium with no fish. After that I will go to a bar with no beer.

Ztrain
08/16/2014, 01:16 AM
I believe it does not matter whether SW is driven by money or altruistic motives. They are making changes. However there will always be some that are not satisfied until every animal is back in the wild.

And at that point when the're all back in the wild and there are no public aquariums or the theme parks it will be interesting to see how many conservation efforts survive. When the kids growing up without exposure to these things don't really care about the things they've never seen. Sure we can dredge a new path there for a shipping lane nothing there but water, approved. To most people what you can't see doesn't exist.

I love that through activism they are trying to remove what most peoples first exposure, awareness, and education starts about the creatures they want to protect. Personally never would have been interested in anything aquatic if it wasn't for my experiences as a kid at The Living Seas in EPCOT.

uwiik
08/16/2014, 06:11 AM
Whether you like it or not, the extinction of certain animals is inevitable. If you wanna stop this from happening, then the whole friggin world will need to enforce one child policy like China so we human can plumet in number from the earth so human don't need to eat as much fish so all the fish in the world can lead a happy wild life...hey better yet, why not take turns and feed our children to the sharks???!!! That will surely keep the sharks happy!! I am all in for conservation and animal rights, but what hardline animal activists are doing is no different than [email protected]

Without institution like Sea World, zoo, public aquarium, or even home reefkeeper or corals exporter like me catching and keeping animals from the wild (FOR MONEY), there will be no artificial or natural propagation effort to conserve the animals we all love (Once again money being one of the motive). I really cannot stand the hypocrites that lives in Lala land blaming other people for making money, from Orca or other animals in that matter. Stop blackmailing Sea World for you being poor!!

Not long ago nobody know that Acropora can be propagated easily, thanks to 'evil no good doers' reefkeepers who destroys the reef now everybody knows how to breed corals thus preventing the previously inevitable extinction of corals from the earth....Now that Sea World managed to breed the Orcas and made boatload of money from it suddenly everybody brands Sea World as an evil money machine institution that torture Orcas on daily basis for money, please get real and grow some brain, we all live in real world, it's a freakin Orca, alive and breeding, I really fail to see any problem with that!! Compare to how many elephants you contribute to kill everyday so you can have that nice timber floor!!

Zoodiver
08/16/2014, 08:04 AM
Zoodiver... I respect your position; your profession. We can agree to disagree on what drives their money machine whether altruistic or corporate greed. Either way we are evolving and our understanding of this world is growing. Cirque du Soleil revolutionized the circus and with it the advent of non-animal focused entertainment. I hope SeaWorld can do something of the same. It looks like they are responding to the public's changing attitudes of animal welfare, even if i believe its money driven. They are moving in the right direction and that is a good thing.


I can respect that and I can see why you have the perspective you do.

I guess I stand firm in my thinking because I've sat at the table with the guys in suits who run these mega sized mult-million dollar parks. They talk about money - but it's how to increase ticket sales to do more for the animals and expand the ability to display more to the public.

Talk of a 'natural' marine mammal exhibits has been going on long before social media and Blackfish made protesting parks the 'trendy' thing to do. It started with smaller animals back in the late 80's and early 90's to see exactly what does and doesn't work. Manatees went from concrete to full natural replications of lagoons and water ways with other smaller aquatic animals. Polar bears started getting fresh water streams and salt water pools with snow, ice, dirt and grass mixes. Sea lions got rocks and currents that change direction. About five years ago, I had a lengthy discussion with a marine mammal curatorial staff about the challenges of putting dolphins onto a mixed living reef display with fish, turtles, coral... the whole nine yards.

Progress is always being made, and I think that is something we all can be happy about in the end.

shark2
08/16/2014, 07:51 PM
I think that every worker at Sea World should have to stand in a cell which is 6 inches wide for 7 days in a row once a year. The point of the six inch wide cell is so there is not enough room to sit or lie down. So thay individual will have to stand.

The workers at Sea World are the equivalent to a corrections officer at a jail. Except the animals did nothing wrong.

KafudaFish
08/16/2014, 09:05 PM
I think that every worker at Sea World should have to stand in a cell which is 6 inches wide for 7 days in a row once a year. The point of the six inch wide cell is so there is not enough room to sit or lie down. So thay individual will have to stand.

The workers at Sea World are the equivalent to a corrections officer at a jail. Except the animals did nothing wrong.

Sharks are cool. I have 2 swell sharks.

Why do you want to punish a professional when you see nothing wrong with what you are doing?

Why do you keep sharks?

shark2
08/16/2014, 09:17 PM
?..

shark2
08/16/2014, 09:20 PM
Why do you want to punish a professional when you see nothing wrong with what you are doing?my sharks live in a resort not a jail cell. If you want you can send me to a resort once a year so I know what it fells like. Its not a punishment for them. Its job training.

Why do you keep sharks?because I want to. What do you have against sharks?

KafudaFish
08/16/2014, 09:35 PM
So you believe that the workers are punishing the animals by taking care of them to the best of their abilities and you are doing your animals a favor by keeping them in a shark resort?

Are you providing the best care possible for them?

I have nothing against sharks btw nor do I have any issue with a person keeping a shark if he or she has the resources available to do the job correctly.

I am just curious how you reached your decision about punishing the workers.

ChimolaFish
08/16/2014, 11:07 PM
I don't think the people who work with the animals at sea world have anything other than altruistic intentions. But it's clear that orcas shouldn't be kept alone in extremely small enclosures. The fact that sea world can up and double three enclosures and not go broke, shows they obviously aren't providing the best possible care from the corporate level. But even if they made the attempt, we just can't replicate the complex social structure, as well as the need for the orcas to travel hundreds of miles at a time. We should ban the breeding of orcas, learn what we can from those in captivity, and when they die sea world can continue keeping other animals that do well in captivity.

shark2
08/17/2014, 07:34 AM
So you believe that the workers are punishing the animals by taking care of them to the best of their abilities and you are doing your animals a favor by keeping them in a shark resort? yes, sometimes someones best isn't good enough

Are you providing the best care possible for them? If by them you mean my swells then no.

I have nothing against sharks btw nor do I have any issue with a person keeping a shark if he or she has the resources available to do the job correctly.

I am just curious how you reached your decision about punishing the workers.I don't know why you keep saying punish. You need to switch it to educate. In the Marines I was water boarded during SERE. It wasn't a punishment but a learning experence.

maoiwowie
08/17/2014, 08:09 AM
CU455... I dont need to see an Orca waving at me with his fin or jumping high in the air and splashing around for my entertainment. Id rather watch women in hot bathing suits. Save the fish for the natural displays.

Ztrain
08/17/2014, 09:50 AM
CU455... I dont need to see an Orca waving at me with his fin or jumping high in the air and splashing around for my entertainment. Id rather watch women in hot bathing suits. Save the fish for the natural displays.

Women in bathing suits waving a flipper at you? :eek1:

ReefPharmer
08/17/2014, 12:00 PM
I dont know why some people are getting the concepts of lack of space and abuse by individual workers confused. There are different types of animal cruelty. I am fairly certain that most will agree that taken any animal and placing it into an enclosure 4x its length isnt something to be supported. If you take a 3 inch yellow tang and place him in a 12 inch tank, most here would flip out and yell about abuse...

I am certain that tangs travel FAR LESS territory than orcas when you take in inch of body length per meter traveled :). In other words, if I "should keep" a yellow tang in a 5 foot tank (per http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1946079), an orca should be kept in an area that is close to a football stadium.

I am certain that most workers in SW orca exhibits do their best in training these (or other) animals to behave in a predictable manner (in no small part due to the fact that if they do not get KW to trick or treat, they will be fired and someone else will get their jobs). They do develop relationships if they are training them for long enough. This has nothing to do with the relatively tiny living quarters which are provided for KW.
"Some animals are best left in the wild". We often say that about the large angelfish, tangs, groupers etc. Why is it that its fine to say it here, but its a different story when it comes to animals that are much more intelligent but are able to splash spectators on command?
(ps I enjoyed my visits to zoos and SW as much as the next person but I was less educated on the subject back then).

Luiz Rocha
08/17/2014, 02:54 PM
"Some animals are best left in the wild". We often say that about the large angelfish, tangs, groupers etc. Why is it that its fine to say it here, but its a different story when it comes to animals that are much more intelligent but are able to splash spectators on command?

Exactly, while I agree that Sea World is a great educational tool, I don't think the orca's habitat come anywhere near what they have in the wild. A reef tank replicates a fish natural habitat in many ways, a pool doesn't.

Zoodiver
08/17/2014, 06:05 PM
I still see a lot of "I think" or "I feel" they need more space.
It's been proven they thrive how they are. Where is proof otherwise?

shark2
08/17/2014, 06:37 PM
Has anyone ate whale? Sea World should donate all the whales they kill to the Kurds in Iraq that are sruck on the hill.

billsreef
08/17/2014, 08:00 PM
Has anyone ate whale? Sea World should donate all the whales they kill to the Kurds in Iraq that are sruck on the hill.

Let's not go down the path of utter nonsense.

shark2
08/17/2014, 08:14 PM
Let's not go down the path of utter nonsense.


<i><br>Here at Reef Central, we believe that dialogs between participants should be conducted in a friendly and helpful manner. If you disagree with a posting, please express yourself in a way that is conducive to further constructive dialog. Conversely, when you post on any given subject, you must be willing to accept constructive criticism without posting a hostile or inflammatory response. Personal attacks of any kind will not be tolerated. Please work to insure that Reef Central remains a friendly and flame free site where everyone, especially newcomers, can feel free to post questions without fear of being unfairly criticized. Thank you for your cooperation.</i>...

gone fishin
08/17/2014, 08:19 PM
Zoo diver I really appreciate the insights that you have brought to this discussion as well as the many others that have posted. It has certainly caused me to ponder the questions posed in this thread more than I thought I would.

shark2
08/17/2014, 08:31 PM
A lot. Check out the video below. Willy the most famous orca ever. Jesse is my hero. I just started crying when Willy jumped over him to freedom.

I do agree with you that it is an educational experience. I teach a class at the aquarium. The kids are 11-12 years old. When they come they have a great time. They learn more from the hands on and visual experience at the aquarium then they can every learn in a textbook or video. The experience they have now might lead them to further pursue an education or career in science. Since a lot of conservation effects depend on volunteers it is important to get people to want to help the environment.

Many of the aquariums and zoos by me are ran by the Wildlife Conservation Society which buys and manages land around the world for conservation and preservation. Lets not forget about the research and captive breeding which takes place their to. Reef Gen is a company that sells captive raised and breed fish. They run their operation out of the aquarium. It might not be feasible or economical for the average person or business to set up a program like that from scratch. They were able to do it with using the resources from the aquarium. If more aquariums did this it will greatly reduce the impact the hobby has on the environment.

Y6bSTWtAo0U

Its for the children lol great line. That movie was the worst thing to happen to orcas. Even a whale as famous as Shamu has to live in a crappy enclosure.

KafudaFish
08/17/2014, 08:39 PM
Shark2

I had a response to your question about my use of the term, punishment, instead of education to describe putting a human in a situation that he or she could not turn etc for a week but seeing that you used water boarding as a point to strengthen your position I don't think that there is any common ground on this.

When you asked about if anyone has eaten whale or what we should do with all of the whales that SW has killed pushed things from out in left field all the way into the parking lot.

Perhaps you should volunteer your time at a zoo or an aquatic park to see what it takes to care for animals on a larger scale.

Thank you for your service btw.

shark2
08/17/2014, 08:59 PM
Shark2

I had a response to your question about my use of the term, punishment, instead of education to describe putting a human in a situation that he or she could not turn etc for a week but seeing that you used water boarding as a point to strengthen your position I don't think that there is any common ground on this. I am open minded and will like to hear your opinion.

When you asked about if anyone has eaten whale or what we should do with all of the whales that SW has killed pushed things from out in left field all the way into the parking lot. i guess i hit a home run

Perhaps you should volunteer your time at a zoo or an aquatic park to see what it takes to care for animals on a larger scale.i worked at the great adventure safari

Thank you for your service btw.thank you for paying my salary and providing me with a free college education. I worked with the military of many countries. No country treats its military as well as ours.

Luiz Rocha
08/17/2014, 09:19 PM
I still see a lot of "I think" or "I feel" they need more space.
It's been proven they thrive how they are. Where is proof otherwise?

It's been proven that they thrive? By whom? I am not a marine mammal biologist, but I know just by looking at its dorsal fin that this whale:

http://s1.hubimg.com/u/8260630_f520.jpg

Cannot be as healthy as this:

http://championsforcetaceans.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/wild-and-free-beauty.jpg

As others have already said, one can keep a yellow tang alive in a 5 gallon cube for years. Is that thriving?

Ztrain
08/17/2014, 09:38 PM
http://swimmingfree.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/fin-collapse-in-killer-whales/

http://oceanadvocatefl.wordpress.com/2013/04/16/orca-dorsal-fin-controvery-experts-vs-seaworld/

maoiwowie
08/17/2014, 10:12 PM
My understanding of our natural world is limited and my knowledge of Orcas even more. I only know what I read or see on TV with programs like "Blackfish" or when I was a kid at the Shamu show. I dont know the SeaWorld science or what their research programs conclude.

Im sure the ability to keep things alive or breed in captivity is a great measure of success if it were only about the science. But to me its not only about the science. I try not to place human feelings and experience on to animals but its difficult when I believe we share something with all living things; and that all living things can suffer. Watching the Orca in that swimming pool just makes me feel sad for him or her. And even when i see these creatures on TV, I can feel a common bond that my "pet trigger" and I could never have. Some people have a different definition of "thrive", but Orcas living their existence in an enormous swimming pool is not included in mine. If they are having Orca; jump through hoops with a trainer on its back; balance a fish on its nose before eating; waving Hi with a fin while sticking their tongue out... all in the name of research and learning... I hope we will find a better, perhaps more dignified way, to teach the world about these magnificent creatures.

ReefPharmer
08/17/2014, 10:18 PM
I still see a lot of "I think" or "I feel" they need more space.
It's been proven they thrive how they are. Where is proof otherwise?

I read your responses to others and feel that you at least give them some thought but this one was just lazy. Your statement that "it's been proven that they thrive" doesn't hold any water without actual proof. While we are at it, please show some proof from majority expert opinion who are not on the payroll.
I work in pharmacy and see "proof" daily on how this drug is the best ever--expert opinion by company paid spokespeople. That type of information is misguided at least and even willfully misleading.
Please explain the proof you refer to as I would like to expand my knowledge in this area and feel your other responses were reasonably written

Zoodiver
08/18/2014, 07:25 AM
It's been proven that they thrive? By whom? I am not a marine mammal biologist, but I know just by looking at its dorsal fin that this whale:


If you look at wild orcas, dorsal curves happen naturally out there as well. It's not a sign of anything negative under human care. As you state, you aren't a biologist, show were did you learn this was a negative sign?



My understanding of our natural world is limited and my knowledge of Orcas even more. I only know what I read or see on TV with programs like "Blackfish" or when I was a kid at the Shamu show. I dont know the SeaWorld science or what their research programs conclude.

Im sure the ability to keep things alive or breed in captivity is a great measure of success if it were only about the science. But to me its not only about the science. I try not to place human feelings and experience on to animals but its difficult when I believe we share something with all living things; and that all living things can suffer. Watching the Orca in that swimming pool just makes me feel sad for him or her. And even when i see these creatures on TV, I can feel a common bond that my "pet trigger" and I could never have. Some people have a different definition of "thrive", but Orcas living their existence in an enormous swimming pool is not included in mine. If they are having Orca; jump through hoops with a trainer on its back; balance a fish on its nose before eating; waving Hi with a fin while sticking their tongue out... all in the name of research and learning... I hope we will find a better, perhaps more dignified way, to teach the world about these magnificent creatures.

This is a great example of what I'm hoping to change. The information people are basing their opinion on is bad info. Generally, people only look at what they are spoon fed by the media instead of taking initiative to look into it on their own.

Orcas aren't jumping through hoops, balancing a fish on it's nose or being neglected at all. What they do show during the performances are natural behaviors. No animal is ever forced to do anything it doesn't want to for these displays. No animal is ever NOT given food if they willingly choose to not participate.


I read your responses to others and feel that you at least give them some thought but this one was just lazy. Your statement that "it's been proven that they thrive" doesn't hold any water without actual proof. While we are at it, please show some proof from majority expert opinion who are not on the payroll.
I work in pharmacy and see "proof" daily on how this drug is the best ever--expert opinion by company paid spokespeople. That type of information is misguided at least and even willfully misleading.
Please explain the proof you refer to as I would like to expand my knowledge in this area and feel your other responses were reasonably written

Your are correct, in that being a short answer.
If you want proof, I can provide this page with actual work being done. I can also flood this page by picking apart the lies in Blackfish almost minute by minute.

Instead, what I'm hoping to do is show that there is far more going on that what the public is being told about by the activists - and hope to motivate people to get out on their own and look into it. I see so many people so quick to jump on a bandwagon without taking the time to look at the other side.

How many people have looked that the Sea World rescue and rehab programs and the number of animals saved each year? How many people have looked at the work being done to preserve orcas (and other marine mammals) in the wild (that is all funded by ticket sales). How many people know that back 40-50 years ago, Sea World saw what they were doing with wild orca collection was wrong, and stopped on their own?
Thanks to the fake documentaries, many people still think SW is out taking wild orcas. Many people still think they force animals to do 'tricks'. Many people think the animals are starved and mistreated if they don't 'perform'. None of this is true. CNN even published an article saying Blackfish was one sided, and mislead people by ignoring all of the positive things SW is doing that out weight anything negative.

maoiwowie
08/18/2014, 08:36 AM
Thats where we completely diverge... No science can disprove basic empathy or humanity. Thats what makes us human. Again, im not a scientist and I dont believe it has anything to do with "initiative." If it were obvious that holding these Orcas are a good thing, then where are the documentaries that will sway my view to yours? We like to blame the Japanese for hunting whale as cruel, yet we cant see our own faults in the Orca circus. I know there is something inherently wrong with an Orca living his ENTIRE existence in a swimming pool. No researcher or book will change this fact for me. I guarantee you if it were you or if this animal could speak, it would say "Ill take my chances in the wild anyday!"

What do you think the Orcas are doing when they put on the clown and circus show? Natural behaviors?... Puhlease! You honestly believe these are natural behaviors of wild Orcas?
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=8897&pictureid=64865

uwiik
08/18/2014, 08:39 AM
So you believe that the workers are punishing the animals by taking care of them to the best of their abilities and you are doing your animals a favor by keeping them in a shark resort?

Are you providing the best care possible for them?

I have nothing against sharks btw nor do I have any issue with a person keeping a shark if he or she has the resources available to do the job correctly.

I am just curious how you reached your decision about punishing the workers.

Maybe because he don't have a job hence the jealousy towards the Sea World's employees??

shark2
08/18/2014, 09:18 AM
Maybe because he don't have a job hence the jealousy towards the Sea World's employees??

Is that a question or statement?

ReefPharmer
08/18/2014, 09:19 AM
Your are correct, in that being a short answer.
If you want proof, I can provide this page with actual work being done. I can also flood this page by picking apart the lies in Blackfish almost minute by minute.

Instead, what I'm hoping to do is show that there is far more going on that what the public is being told about by the activists - and hope to motivate people to get out on their own and look into it. I see so many people so quick to jump on a bandwagon without taking the time to look at the other side.

How many people have looked that the Sea World rescue and rehab programs and the number of animals saved each year? How many people have looked at the work being done to preserve orcas (and other marine mammals) in the wild (that is all funded by ticket sales). How many people know that back 40-50 years ago, Sea World saw what they were doing with wild orca collection was wrong, and stopped on their own?
Thanks to the fake documentaries, many people still think SW is out taking wild orcas. Many people still think they force animals to do 'tricks'. Many people think the animals are starved and mistreated if they don't 'perform'. None of this is true. CNN even published an article saying Blackfish was one sided, and mislead people by ignoring all of the positive things SW is doing that out weight anything negative.

You have some points there but you fail to address my original question. How can you or anyone else say that an animal the size of a killer whale can thrive in an enclosure that's 4x it's length. Even elephants, lions and sloths which move so much less, get much bigger areas compared to body size . I realize that building a tank is much much more expensive but we are talking strictly about "thrive". Instead of that term, you may be able to say "a few suffer for the good of many".
SW isn't all bad, I am certainly not stating that. They do research and do rescue animals. I never watched "black water" or "cove" or other films to sway my opinion. However you cannot get me to agree that an animals that require almost constant moving, can "thrive" in an SW sized tanks anymore than a cheetah that is never let out of a 10/6 crate it's whole life and expected to thrive and exercise by spinning in circles... quickly .

alton
08/18/2014, 10:30 AM
Zoo diver you might as well quit trying to prove your point, I appreciate all the information you brought here but some will never agree that keeping whales and fish in an aquarium is wrong. Which questions “why they are posting on a fish website” and please don’t tell me there is no comparison because a Yellow Tang swims in millions of gallons in the ocean and is then limited to their 200 gallon 2’ x 6’ tank. Yellow Tang 6” x 4 equals 24” of tank width which was the comparison for the whale tank. And since someone brought up the fact that animals in the zoo have more room than Killer Whales at SW I would have to dis-agree. I have seen the shows at SW and when the whales come out of the water they are moving at close to their top speed? Or at least it seems that way because they are hauling buns either way. Now take that Elephant or Cheetah that has a much larger pen than the killer whales, for me I have never seen an Elephant run at a Zoo, I don’t think a cheetah’s pen is large enough for him to get to 60MPH either. For me I like seeing the Snow Leopards here at the SA Zoo, they have been here longer than I have been alive but I am sure where they come from it never gets to 110 like here in SA. At least at SW they chill the water for the whales so it’s more like where they come from. For me I like my aquariums, Zoo's, and going to Sea World. Oh yea and my kids loved Free Willy which I bought for them on VHS.

maoiwowie
08/18/2014, 10:54 AM
I do realize it may sound hypocritical but the main difference for me between an Orca and a Yellow Tang is that for the life of me, I havent been able to get the tang to jump out of the water and twirl for me. Ive tried but it wont learn. Perhaps im a bad teacher, or perhaps its not intelligent enough to understand what I want from him. My pet cockroach wont learn this trick either. Im sure the tang has no idea that it is living in Plato's cave. You think there is a big difference between a 3 foot tank and a 4 foot tank? I can admit that my relationship with my reef tank is one sided... for my enjoyment only... at its base level selfish? yes...

Im not trying to pile on you Zoodiver, but some things have no argument. Getting SW researchers and scientist to concede anything is like pulling teeth.

krj-1168
08/18/2014, 11:39 AM
No one is disagreeing that the conditions couldn't and shouldn't be improved. But those calling for the banning of killer whales and dolphins in captivity - are forgetting the benefits of having such species in captivity. The real call should be to improve the conditions which these captivity whales and dolphins like in. For example - Sea World's plan to expand the Orca habitat (to more than 5 million gallons) - to be one which replicates the pacific Northwest is definitely a good improvement.

Having them in places like Sea World - helps with education the public to the plight of cetaceans. And there is much greater dangers and harm being done to cetaceans (including dolphins) annually. For example - more than 2,000 dolphins are being kill in Japanese waters every year. These dolphins aren't being captured for marine parks. They are actually killed by fishermen - as either food, or because they are seen as "pests".

BlueFyre
08/18/2014, 11:59 AM
I have never understood the whole people/kids can see the, in person and appreciate/learn about them.

With the day and age we live in there is information everywhere on these creatures and their intelligence, and where they come from. When I was little I read tons of books on animals that had gone extinct before I was born. It made me realize the impact we as humans have on this world.

I have never seen a killer whale in person but I still think they are amazing animals that should be protected.

alton
08/18/2014, 12:09 PM
I do realize it may sound hypocritical but the main difference for me between an Orca and a Yellow Tang is that for the life of me, I havent been able to get the tang to jump out of the water and twirl for me. Ive tried but it wont learn. Perhaps im a bad teacher, or perhaps its not intelligent enough to understand what I want from him. My pet cockroach wont learn this trick either. Im sure the tang has no idea that it is living in Plato's cave. You think there is a big difference between a 3 foot tank and a 4 foot tank? I can admit that my relationship with my reef tank is one sided... for my enjoyment only... at its base level selfish? yes...

Im not trying to pile on you Zoodiver, but some things have no argument. Getting SW researchers and scientist to concede anything is like pulling teeth.

You just don't spend enough time with them, my BSJF at work watches me for 10 to 11 hours a day while I work at my desk

maoiwowie
08/18/2014, 12:31 PM
My tang already does that... Let me know when it jumps out of the water and does a triple flip for you... I know somebody that produces AGT ;)

Zoodiver
08/18/2014, 12:49 PM
Thats where we completely diverge... No science can disprove basic empathy or humanity. Thats what makes us human. Again, im not a scientist and I dont believe it has anything to do with "initiative." If it were obvious that holding these Orcas are a good thing, then where are the documentaries that will sway my view to yours? We like to blame the Japanese for hunting whale as cruel, yet we cant see our own faults in the Orca circus. I know there is something inherently wrong with an Orca living his ENTIRE existence in a swimming pool. No researcher or book will change this fact for me. I guarantee you if it were you or if this animal could speak, it would say "Ill take my chances in the wild anyday!"

What do you think the Orcas are doing when they put on the clown and circus show? Natural behaviors?... Puhlease! You honestly believe these are natural behaviors of wild Orcas?
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=8897&pictureid=64865


Not trying to be sarcastic at all, but I'm confused as to why you posted a very old picture (roughly '71 or '72) of an orca on display in Texas (Seven Seas Park) that was collected in the 1970 from BC to prove a point about current husbandry practices of Sea World. Could you explain how it's relevant? Or was this done for dramatic effect hoping people wouldn't realize it wasn't really Sea World, but would make that connection if the pic was posted?

maoiwowie
08/18/2014, 01:00 PM
Zoodiver... It wasn't intentional. I have no idea when the photo was taken. But if you are suggesting there is a difference between jumping through a hoop or flying in the air to touch the ball hanging over head then I am the fool. If you cant see the point im trying to make, then we are indeed speaking a different language...

Look, I can play patty cake with you while i stand on this orcas nose... Thats ok, but dont you dare let the orca jump through that hoop!...

Since we are questioning each other... What natural behavior is being exhibited when an Orca is balancing a human on its nose at a Seaworld Park?

Braver69
08/18/2014, 01:26 PM
Sea World does a lot of great things for animals. Sure they are for profit but that doesnt mean they dont care about the animals, in fact quite the opposite when you consider how much it costs to get a animal that large transported and homed. For profit does not mean its a big evil corporation, just means they are investor owned and they have to give back some of the profit to investors. Having dead orcas in the tank would be a bad thing for Sea World so they go a long ways in making sure those animals are well taken care of.

Imagine how many people that have seen those shows that learned a bit about the whales and marine life that ordinarily would have cared less otherwise. Why do you think blackfish had a impact at all? But if you support not having any caged animals then you better go put all our reef tanks back in the ocean since they are more happy there then in a protected enviroment. Seems odd to me anyone that owns a reef tank or fish tank would be for blackfish since that means all animals should go back to the wild including what you own.

Captivity is not perfect but it does help us to learn and understand, also most animals slowly adapt to that life style as well, thus why you dont want to dump them back into the wild. Imagine taking all those designer clownfish and dumping them back into the wild, how long do you think they would last.

alton
08/18/2014, 02:30 PM
My tang already does that... Let me know when it jumps out of the water and does a triple flip for you... I know somebody that produces AGT ;)

I don't train mine, my fish have me trained.

maoiwowie
08/18/2014, 02:33 PM
That probably something we all can agree on.

Luiz Rocha
08/18/2014, 03:54 PM
If you look at wild orcas, dorsal curves happen naturally out there as well. It's not a sign of anything negative under human care. As you state, you aren't a biologist, show were did you learn this was a negative sign?

I didn't say I wasn't a biologist, which I am. I said I am not a marine mammal biologist, big difference. And I did look at curves occurring naturally (someone else even provided links):

http://oceanadvocatefl.wordpress.com/2013/04/16/orca-dorsal-fin-controvery-experts-vs-seaworld/

http://swimmingfree.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/fin-collapse-in-killer-whales/

Only 1% of wild orcas show collapse naturally, while the percentage in captivity is much higher (30%+). I have been to Sea Worlds in Florida, Texas and California, and all orcas that I saw had fins collapsed. I have also seen orcas in the wild with the same frequency in Baja California and British Columbia, and saw none with their fins collapsed.

You also didn't answer my question. You said it has been proven that they thrive in captivity. Where was it proven and by whom?

Luiz Rocha
08/18/2014, 03:57 PM
Zoodiver... It wasn't intentional. I have no idea when the photo was taken. But if you are suggesting there is a difference between jumping through a hoop or flying in the air to touch the ball hanging over head then I am the fool. If you cant see the point im trying to make, then we are indeed speaking a different language...

Look, I can play patty cake with you while i stand on this orcas nose... Thats ok, but dont you dare let the orca jump through that hoop!...

Since we are questioning each other... What natural behavior is being exhibited when an Orca is balancing a human on its nose at a Seaworld Park?

Here, I will rephrase:

What do you think the Orcas are doing when they put on the clown and circus show? Natural behaviors?... You honestly believe these are natural behaviors of wild Orcas?

http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2012/02/peta-seaworld-orca-killer-whale-lawsuit-slave.jpg.662x0_q100_crop-scale.jpg

mandarin_goby
08/18/2014, 04:01 PM
^^that's the "playing with my seal before I eat it" pose.

Luiz Rocha
08/18/2014, 04:08 PM
I have never understood the whole people/kids can see the, in person and appreciate/learn about them.

With the day and age we live in there is information everywhere on these creatures and their intelligence, and where they come from. When I was little I read tons of books on animals that had gone extinct before I was born. It made me realize the impact we as humans have on this world.

I have never seen a killer whale in person but I still think they are amazing animals that should be protected.

I completely agree, and going one step further, having lions and tigers in large enclosures approximating their natural habitats in zoos is one thing (and I mostly agree with that), but having them doing tricks in a circus is another (which I completely disagree with).

So, if Sea World had them in much larger enclosures that approximated their natural habitat, and didn't have them perform "shows", I would probably be in favor of keeping a few for educational purposes, but as it is, I really don't agree with them being held in captivity.

Case in point: Georgia Aquarium. I think it is fine for them to have those whale sharks there (although I wish the tank was bigger, or fewer of them were there).

Cu455
08/18/2014, 04:27 PM
People train animals all the time. If you have a dog aren't you going to train it to not crap in your house. Maybe teach it to walk next to you or to fetch. Dogs are also trained to sniff out drugs and explosives and to take people down. Ranchers train their live stock and people around the world train mules and horses to transport people and goods. People train their fish to eat foods which they are normally not accustomed to. People train their kids to not run in the street,r ide a bike without training wheels and stand for the pledge. People train to run marathons, bench press 400 pounds and jump out of airplanes.
We are trained to look both ways before crossing, stop at a red ight and to obey la.

Even in the wild animals train their offsprings. I don't really understand how training animals is so harmful. Yes whales are social and intellent animals. So are dogs and they make a pretty good match for man. How many people provide their dog with a natrual habitat? Lets not forget dogs are pack animals.

ReeferKimberly
08/18/2014, 04:33 PM
Here are some stories about individual whales of SeaWorld that I wrote. They spend less than 1% on conservation efforts and their orcas do not thrive in their conditions. My opinion is rather obvious and it is negative.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10175066_721185904570606_4457867820052298060_n.jpg?oh=a30cdaeaa496aa4e599b8ebb75af47e6&oe=546615EE&__gda__=1416194520_d5dda60393d54fc52e6973457903713b

This is Corky II's story. Corky's story will resonate with all mothers out there. She was captured out of A5 Pod in British Columbia, Canada in 1969. All the other orcas she was captured with are now dead. She spent 17 years at Marineland of the Pacific with another orca, Orky. She would be the first orca to give birth in captivity, something she repeated 6 more times. ALL of her calves died before they were 48 days old.

Her 'family' member Orky died after they were moved to SeaWorld San Diego and Corky was involved in the death of Kandu V, an orca we wrote about in an earlier story. Kandu V rammed Corky aggressively and burst an artery as a result. She bled out and died while Corky was ok.

Years of stress and loss plague Corky. She has adopted several young orcas in her time, among them Sumar and Splash who are now both also dead.

Corky is the longest-held captive orca in the world. She spends much of her days swimming circles in her tank, upside-down.

Corky like many others suffer in captivity. You can help stop this by calling for new legislation, spreading the word and not attending marine parks.

~Kimberly Miller

ReeferKimberly
08/18/2014, 04:34 PM
https://scontent-a-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/1458417_718573384831858_3509594718547562676_n.jpg

This is Kandu V's story. Kandu V was captured in 1977 in Iceland and was kept at SeaWorld San Diego. She was known as a very dominant female and despite this was still used in waterworks with trainers and bred.

In January of 1986 she gave birth to her first calf, who was stillborn. Many orcas have problems breeding in captivity. In 1988 she gave birth to Orkid who lived. Being so dominant she was not happy when Corky II took interest in her calf. During a show Orkid and Corky II were performing when Kandu V swam into the main tank at high speed and rammed Corky with her mouth open.

Corky II was ok but Kandu V franctured her jaw and bled out and died in front of shocked spectators. Her daughter Orkid was by her side. This kind of attack and death has never been recorded in the wild before.

Kandu V suffered in captivity like many others. You can help stop this by not attending marine parks and by spreading the word.

~Kimberly Miller

ReeferKimberly
08/18/2014, 04:35 PM
https://scontent-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/1977471_712694035419793_1918043620_n.jpg?oh=f4d83ba5f17ba133554bd29fe4e2581f&oe=546EBE1A

This is Kalina's story. Kalina was the first captive bred orca to live more than a few days, known as the orginal "Baby Shamu". She was daughter of wild-caught Katina and Winston and she was a hybrid of Iclandic and Pacific Southern Residant Orca, something that never would have occurred in the wild and therefor does not do anything for conservation.

She started at SeaWorld Orlando and would go on to be moved to Ohio, San Antonio, San Diego and back to Orlando, disrupting her "pod" life each time, something very traumatizing for an orca.

When she was only 7, a child in orca years in the wild, SeaWorld bred her and she gave birth to Keet in 1993. Very shortly after his birth she was taken away from Keet and moved to SeaWorld Orlando where she gave birth to Keto in 1995. An orca would never have calves so close together in the wild.

Kalina was noticeable for her very bent dorsal fin in a female, something that rarely happens to wild orcas. She would go on to have two more calves before dying at the young age of 25 in 2010 at SeaWorld due to Preacute Bacteremia Septicemia. She was the 4th orca in as many months to die at SeaWorld that year. With treatment she 'should' have lived, except she was likely treated with so many anti-biotics in her lifetime that she was partially immune.

Kalina suffered in captivty like so many others today. You can help stop this by spreading the word and not going to marine parks.

~Kimberly Miller

ReeferKimberly
08/18/2014, 04:35 PM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t1.0-9/1982138_712173908805139_1926419888_n.jpg


This is Gudrun's story. Gudrun was caught close to the coast of Iceland on 25 October 1976. She spent time at Dolfinarium Harderwijk in the Netherlands until she moved to SeaWorld Orlando in 1987. She is the mother of Taima and Nyar, who both also died young.

Gudrun had perfect markings and an unusually straight dorsal fin for a captive whale so she was used often on the slide-out to let children and trainers sit on her, often while she was heavily pregnant.

Nyar was a sickly baby and often was visibly weak. She did not do well in captivity. During shows Gudrum appeared to try to drown her several times. Her daughter Taima would go on to do this to her own calves as it is speculated she learned the odd behavior from her mother as she watched. Nyar only lived to be 2 years.

Several months before Nyar's death in 1996 Gudrun went into labor again, SeaWorld had bred her before she would have bred again in the wild as it takes a lot out of a mother. She was in labor for 20 hours and was unable to deliver. SeaWorld used a metal hook to remove the dead calf and used a winch to pull it out. This caused internal bleeding inside Gudrun. She died 4 days later.

Gudrun and others like her suffer in captivity. You can help stop it by not attending marine parks and by spreading the word.

~Kimberly Miller

https://scontent-a-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/l/t1.0-9/11884_714161231939740_2017937676_n.jpg

This is Keto's story. Usually when people hear about an orca involved in the death of a human they think of Tilikum, star of Blackfish, but Keto is another that has killed.

Keto has lived a traumatic life, living at every SeaWorld (including Ohio which has since closed). Not only has he lived at those 4 locations but he now lives in Loro Parque in Spain. It is this constant stress of establishing new relationships in the already stressful life in captivity that may have led to his overly dominant and aggresive behavior. Orcas in the wild have never killed a person.

On Christmas Eve 2009 while still swimming with humans despite his known aggression he fatally drowned his trainer, Alexis Martinez, just two months before Tilikum would kill Dawn Brancheau.

It was the fact that Keto was still doing water-work with trainers despite his behavior that lead the authorities to discuss the desirability of these shows with such animals and warn of the lack of ability to fulfill the most important principle of preventive action, the avoidance of risks.

These deaths should serve as a reminder of the damage captivity does to the intelligent brain, and make us question the judgement of keeping these sentient animals for our own selfish entertainment.

(It is of note that Keto has now been put with orca Morgan, in what appears to be an attempt to breed them, despite his aggression and her young age. Humans never do seem to learn)

~Kimberly Miller

ReeferKimberly
08/18/2014, 04:36 PM
And I will stop there, though have written more. I feel very passionate about this subject. If you see any errors, forgive me I am human, and open to corrections in a polite manner :)

maoiwowie
08/18/2014, 04:39 PM
Thanks Luiz... Its hard to see the world in black and white when we come from different backgrounds, cultures, education, and experiences. Im not sure what my dog would tell me if she could talk. You figure after 10s of thousands of years of domestication my damn dog could at least say something.

And thank you Kimberly...

Cu455
08/18/2014, 04:42 PM
Removed, and never edit a mods edit~dc

ReeferKimberly
08/18/2014, 04:48 PM
If you look at wild orcas, dorsal curves happen naturally out there as well. It's not a sign of anything negative under human care. As you state, you aren't a biologist, show were did you learn this was a negative sign?

Actually it only happens in a minuscule percentage. Ingrid Visser is suing SW over them skewing her research to make it seem like it happens more often.

dc
08/18/2014, 04:56 PM
Let's step back a little guys. I don't care how you feel about it, discuss it like adults calmly.

I personally don't see it much different than having a tank. Yes, I'd go and I wouldn't feel bad about it. There you go.

Now behave.

syrinx
08/18/2014, 04:59 PM
Even in the wild animals train their offsprings.


I had a pair of macaws that lived in the sun room of my house-basically a all glass room in the center of the house. They had a nest box and would have babies every year or two. One time a baby fell out of the nest, and my wife went to try to get the baby to perch on a stick to get it back in the box. The adults both were saying "UP-Up" to the baby- knowing that the human language they had learned was more descriptive than their own.

Doing tricks that utilize the natural abilities of the whales is actually good for the whales in that it provides for the mental and physical stimulation. No one knows what the mental processes of the whale, so we do not know how much they enjoy the human contact. To them it may be a deluxe situation.

I am not going to comment casually on the multiple posts above-this is a person that cares deeply about her beliefs. I also would not question zoodiver for the same reason. I applaud both for their convictions. I will say though- I prefer using the situation as it is today- not looking to history such as practices in 1969.

maoiwowie
08/18/2014, 05:00 PM
I like your style Debi...

Cu455
08/18/2014, 05:19 PM
...

Zoodiver
08/18/2014, 07:16 PM
I feel bad that there isn't a better way to allow you to see what really goes on.

Kimberly's "fact" that SW spends less than 1% on conservation is a flat out lie. (Google it, you can find out exactly what SW spends on rescue/rehab/conservation.) Corky is NOT the longest living orca under human care. That is a lie. (Google it, yes he's old, but not THE oldest.) The rest of the comments are mostly emotions wrapped around isolated 'facts' and passing off opinion of situations as fact. It is amazing writing, and really plays to the human emotion without going into the whole truth of any situation. I would love to know what ties there are to orcas and what first hand real world experience is that leads her to be someone who could be an author of such articles. To me, all of that falls right in line with BF and the way it was all slanted to make it look a specific way to please the producers (have an opinion, then look only for things that support that and ignore the rest).

Try this read about Blackfish and why you ALWAYS need to question the source of info:

http://da15bdaf715461308003-0c725c907c2d637068751776aeee5fbf.r7.cf1.rackcdn.com/adf36e5c35b842f5ae4e2322841e8933_4-4-14-updated-final-of-blacklist-list-of-inaccuracies-and-misleading-points.pdf

If you really only stand on what happened in the 50s, 60s and 70s, I strongly urge you to get up to speed on what really happens at these parks TODAY: August 2014. I would not be part of this industry if those things were happening today. There are MANY factors at play that most aren't aware off, please take the time to learn the full story before taking a stand for something you might not fully understand.


------------------------------------------------

Since this is turning into emotions, far outdated information (with pictures to draw out more emotion) and bad info being passed off as fact, I respectfully back out from further discussion to avoid causing problems. I beg you, please think for yourselves and do the research to find the big picture.

Ztrain
08/18/2014, 07:19 PM
(someone else even provided links):

I linked those posts. Also if you only listened to the beginning you'd hear the %s of the finns flipped over. If you listen all the way through, the interviewer keeps trying to ask or suggests that it could be lack of being healthy. The older lady or researcher being interviewer suggest what most likely the reasons as being conditions due to swimming in the same patterns, being out of the water, or previous injurys from a long time ago. Not that they are depressed, sad, or in any other current unhealthy stress.

And Zoo you're awesome and ty for that PDF.

maoiwowie
08/18/2014, 07:47 PM
Curious... Who wrote the abstract? Or why was it written? Did the author consider anything accurate or not misleading in Blackfish?

Alexraptor
08/18/2014, 08:00 PM
I have never understood the whole people/kids can see the, in person and appreciate/learn about them.

With the day and age we live in there is information everywhere on these creatures and their intelligence, and where they come from. When I was little I read tons of books on animals that had gone extinct before I was born. It made me realize the impact we as humans have on this world.

I have never seen a killer whale in person but I still think they are amazing animals that should be protected.

I'm going to have to say that reading about them and watching videos about them does not even remotely compare to seeing them in the flesh with your own eyes.

As a child my parents took me to Vancouver Aquarium back in the early 90's.
Seeing those Orca's in the flesh is an experience I will cherish for the rest of my life.

When it comes to animals, or anything for that matter, seeing them, or touching them connects you in a way books and footage never can and gives you a deeper rooted appreciation for things.

ReeferKimberly
08/18/2014, 08:28 PM
I feel bad that there isn't a better way to allow you to see what really goes on.

Kimberly's "fact" that SW spends less than 1% on conservation is a flat out lie. (Google it, you can find out exactly what SW spends on rescue/rehab/conservation.) Corky is NOT the longest living orca under human care. That is a lie. (Google it, yes he's old, but not THE oldest.) The rest of the comments are mostly emotions wrapped around isolated 'facts' and passing off opinion of situations as fact. It is amazing writing, and really plays to the human emotion without going into the whole truth of any situation. I would love to know what ties there are to orcas and what first hand real world experience is that leads her to be someone who could be an author of such articles. To me, all of that falls right in line with BF and the way it was all slanted to make it look a specific way to please the producers (have an opinion, then look only for things that support that and ignore the rest).

Try this read about Blackfish and why you ALWAYS need to question the source of info:

http://da15bdaf715461308003-0c725c907c2d637068751776aeee5fbf.r7.cf1.rackcdn.com/adf36e5c35b842f5ae4e2322841e8933_4-4-14-updated-final-of-blacklist-list-of-inaccuracies-and-misleading-points.pdf

If you really only stand on what happened in the 50s, 60s and 70s, I strongly urge you to get up to speed on what really happens at these parks TODAY: August 2014. I would not be part of this industry if those things were happening today. There are MANY factors at play that most aren't aware off, please take the time to learn the full story before taking a stand for something you might not fully understand.


------------------------------------------------

Since this is turning into emotions, far outdated information (with pictures to draw out more emotion) and bad info being passed off as fact, I respectfully back out from further discussion to avoid causing problems. I beg you, please think for yourselves and do the research to find the big picture.

Corky is a female, first. And what other orca are you talking about then? Lolita? Yes she is the oldest, by about a year. I did not say anywhere Corky was, I said she was the longest held captive. Please read closely.

No information is outdated. It is the past and present of the particular orcas. Because some were captured in the past it does not mean the current information about them is not, well, current.

It's kind of like, take a look at the orcas today, swimming upside in circles down or listless at the surface. It gets pretty simple. They do not live as long (the mean lifespan of a captive orca is around 9 years, FACT). They do not 'thrive'. Their calves do not do well. It is just simple to the caring individual. Like elephants, orcas just do not do very well in captivity. Based on facts.

Oh and just because you put quotes around the word "fact" doesn't make it any less of a fact. I see you are very passionate. That's fine. You do not have to bash me as an individual. This has been my passion for many years. I have been on speaking terms with leading experts. I am warranted to write what I write because I have done my own research for a long time, years and years before Blackfish was even an idea.

As far as their donating to conservation. The money they use when they state things like they "donate $50 million towards conservation in their lifetime" is from a non-profit that relies on federal and private funding, not their own profits.

As far as any emotion, those were just stories I wrote containing facts about their lives. I do have emotion. It is clear you do too. The facts are sad, I did not make them up. So any emotion is because they are sad facts. I did not write them for this forum, I just copy-pasted from my own folder. I did not intend to have an arguement with you or anyone and I have not been combative even when you take my words and twist them (like saying I lied about Corky, when I didn't. It was you who read incorrectly).

I also have zero interest in continuing discussion with those who would twist my words. I offer only what I know and to my knowledge have not lied. Like I said originally, I am human and open to polite correction. If that is not possible then no, of course I do not wish to continue.

syrinx
08/18/2014, 08:49 PM
[Quote}

Since this is turning into emotions, far outdated information (with pictures to draw out more emotion) and bad info being passed off as fact, I respectfully back out from further discussion to avoid causing problems. I beg you, please think for yourselves and do the research to find the big picture.[/QUOTE]

And this is why the people with emotional arguments win and continue to mis inform. It is logical for a scientific minded person to realize that they cannot have a discussion with one who rationalizes, becomes emotional, or applies non logic-ie using human attributes to explain animal emotions. But it is incumbent upon those who do have actual hard facts not to allow the alternate realities of others to shout them down. Your opinion will likely not change- nor will hers-but its everyone elses that is important.

maoiwowie
08/18/2014, 09:00 PM
What "facts" are we referring to... What non logic-ie(?) use are you alluding to? So far all I have read are opinions of individuals. Please... show me this mysterious research paper that convinces the uninformed that the circus is more than money making entertainment.

syrinx
08/18/2014, 09:23 PM
The only facts there are- are statistics ie numbers involved, lifespans, illnesses, reproduction. After that it is to be decided if these numbers are being improved upon- and if care is getting better based on these numbers. After that it is pretty much opinion. And of course the whole question is really a personal one as originally asked- what do you think of seaworld. Whatever opinion one has is valid- and based on ones own beliefs. I personally just want to see all sides presented- and zoodiver has a perspective most cannot have. I am the type of person that does not value one person above another-nor do I value one animal before another. A cricket has no less significance than a orca just because we decide it is so. As Deb said- we keep fish, pretty much the same thing.

billsreef
08/19/2014, 04:36 AM
The only facts there are- are statistics ie numbers involved, lifespans, illnesses, reproduction. After that it is to be decided if these numbers are being improved upon- and if care is getting better based on these numbers. After that it is pretty much opinion.

Agreed. At least for me. BTW, on the subject of opinion, I see swimming upside down be mentioned as if it implies a marine mammal is under distress. Ever think it might be a normal behavior that could be sometimes employed in feeding on prey close to or on the surface? I have in fact witnessed their smaller cousins the bottle nosed dolphin swimming upside in the wild here on the Atlantic coast. So I don't find the swimming upside down thing to be odd behavior.

ReeferKimberly
08/19/2014, 05:16 AM
Corky spends hours swimming upside down, rather than just normal bursts of a wild whale. Dr. Ingrid Visser (arguably the world's top orca expert) has this to say about another orca who displays similar behavior:

"Morgan was also observed to spend inordinate amounts of time upside-down. Although swimming upside down is a natural position for wild orca to occasionally exhibit, it is unclear why Morgan is positioning herself upside down so much. Orca do have binocular vision which is facilitated by the orientation of their head and it may be that Morgan is attempting to view items of interest to her (e.g., clouds). However, no matter the goal of this upside-down swimming, once again such a behaviour is (at the very least) beginning to manifest itself as stereotypical, if not already established as such."

I allude to it as being bad because it is not normal. She also lays on the bottom of her tank for long periods or lies listless at the surface. All abnormal behaviors. These stereotypical behaviors can be compared to those alarming ones of other captive animals in distress such as pacing and head swaying. Often the cause is boredom.

mandarin_goby
08/19/2014, 05:25 AM
You say "emotion," I say "compassion." Without it, we're not human. And yes, I say that as a scientist (cancer and virus research, if you must know).

Ethics is a large part of science, it's not all research and data. Yes, ethics is where things get fuzzy, but, for example, if a procedure isn't ethical, it can't be done. Sure, you can shoot anesthetized pigs to simulate war wounds so that different treatments can be researched, but is it right? No, that's why it isn't done any more. Keeping orcas in an artificial environment, forcing them to have interactions with humans and do tricks, forcing them to breed, forcing them to be gawked at by millions isn't very ethical. And yes, that's an argument that's been made by scientists. Putting people's selfish wants in front of an animal's needs isn't "right."

People's views are also simply changing because they are thinking differently, more compassionately. Look at the recent busts on dogfighting rings and closures of puppy mills - people care more now than they have in the past...I think social media has played a part. Also the increased attention on the Japanese whale hunts? Yeah, taking a machine gun to a whale in the name of "research?" That just isn't right.

The public is waking up, thankfully. An expanded orca exhibit is like putting lipstick on a pig. A comment on a post on a news site that stuck with me said "why bother putting them back in the wild or just leaving the orcas there? The ocean just isn't big enough!"

KafudaFish
08/19/2014, 07:14 AM
Corky spends hours swimming upside down, rather than just normal bursts of a wild whale. Dr. Ingrid Visser (arguably the world's top orca expert) has this to say about another orca who displays similar behavior:

"Morgan was also observed to spend inordinate amounts of time upside-down. Although swimming upside down is a natural position for wild orca to occasionally exhibit, it is unclear why Morgan is positioning herself upside down so much. Orca do have binocular vision which is facilitated by the orientation of their head and it may be that Morgan is attempting to view items of interest to her (e.g., clouds). However, no matter the goal of this upside-down swimming, once again such a behaviour is (at the very least) beginning to manifest itself as stereotypical, if not already established as such."

I allude to it as being bad because it is not normal. She also lays on the bottom of her tank for long periods or lies listless at the surface. All abnormal behaviors. These stereotypical behaviors can be compared to those alarming ones of other captive animals in distress such as pacing and head swaying. Often the cause is boredom.


I am going to disagree with your last two sentences and I have heard that statement probably hundreds of times.

Could it mean stress? Yes but you have to take into account the situation and be able to read other signs including the animal's body language and how the animal has acted throughout the day.

Some animals will display the pacing such as at the end of the day when it is time to enter their inside facilities or simply it is a habit and has little meaning. If the species is a social one then other members can learn that behavior, exhibit it, and pass it onto another.


As far as the above example yes it could be an issue but again different animals have different personalities and long-term observations would be needed to make the judgement call.

mandarin_goby
08/19/2014, 08:51 AM
Also....how many kids are inspired to be paleontologists because they saw a living, breathing dinosaur in captivity? 0% percent. You don't need to see an animal caged in order to fall in love with it.

billsreef
08/19/2014, 09:31 AM
Also....how many kids are inspired to be paleontologists because they saw a living, breathing dinosaur in captivity? 0% percent. You don't need to see an animal caged in order to fall in love with it.

By way of comparison, there are far and away more marine biology students than paleontology students ;)

mandarin_goby
08/19/2014, 10:12 AM
Sure, I see what you are saying...

But I'm sure the giant squid researchers weren't so inspired because of the giant squid they saw doing silly pet tricks at the zoo ;)

BlueFyre
08/19/2014, 10:25 AM
I'm going to have to say that reading about them and watching videos about them does not even remotely compare to seeing them in the flesh with your own eyes.

As a child my parents took me to Vancouver Aquarium back in the early 90's.
Seeing those Orca's in the flesh is an experience I will cherish for the rest of my life.

When it comes to animals, or anything for that matter, seeing them, or touching them connects you in a way books and footage never can and gives you a deeper rooted appreciation for things.


To each his own I guess. I saw a beluga whale at an aquarium and that was pretty cool. But seeing humpback whales in the wild was the experience of a life time. Whale watching is incredible.

As I mentioned before I hope to be able to take a trip and see orcas in the wild. I would much rather do that then go see some at sea world. Sure it's easier to go to sea world and see one on display but that just doesn't do it for me.

ReeferKimberly
08/19/2014, 10:26 AM
I am going to disagree with your last two sentences and I have heard that statement probably hundreds of times.

Could it mean stress? Yes but you have to take into account the situation and be able to read other signs including the animal's body language and how the animal has acted throughout the day.

Some animals will display the pacing such as at the end of the day when it is time to enter their inside facilities or simply it is a habit and has little meaning. If the species is a social one then other members can learn that behavior, exhibit it, and pass it onto another.


As far as the above example yes it could be an issue but again different animals have different personalities and long-term observations would be needed to make the judgement call.

You are disagreeing that animals often display stereotypical behaviors due to boredom and lack of stimuli because some animals pace when they are excited over their routine? Sure some animals will pace before a meal etc. I am not talking about that. I am talking about animals who walk in circles all day long so much they wear paths in their enclosures or those who never stop swaying their heads longer than to take a drink or eat their food. Of course some animals display behaviors due to knowing their routine but you surely cannot deny that many other do so because of other reasons?

As far as long term observations, Corky has been observed doing this for years and it is not because she getting ready for something in her routine. It is day in and day out. I am talking about this, not an excited lion pacing because it thinks it's going to be fed soon.

igrMVWqiAio

KafudaFish
08/19/2014, 11:26 AM
You are disagreeing that animals often display stereotypical behaviors due to boredom and lack of stimuli because some animals pace when they are excited over their routine? Sure some animals will pace before a meal etc. I am not talking about that. I am talking about animals who walk in circles all day long so much they wear paths in their enclosures or those who never stop swaying their heads longer than to take a drink or eat their food. Of course some animals display behaviors due to knowing their routine but you surely cannot deny that many other do so because of other reasons?

As far as long term observations, Corky has been observed doing this for years and it is not because she getting ready for something in her routine. It is day in and day out. I am talking about this, not an excited lion pacing because it thinks it's going to be fed soon.

igrMVWqiAio

As I wrote above, it is a possibility but does not always indicate a high level of stress. I am not going to use the term happy or sad because that is a gray area at best. The behaviors shown within the video you presented (and are presented to get a point across from the organization that made the video) could indicate that some of the animals are under a certain level of stress. I am not turning a blind eye and agree with you on that point.

The black bear at the circus and the polar bear exhibit for example I agree with you. Who mixes species btw? Having written that, it should be up to the institution holding those animals to address those situations and to provide positive stimuli for the animals. Positive reinforcement?

If you are talking about Corky the Asian elephant I would disagree that the animal being stressed. If you watch the rest of the elephant's body language then the animal is not showing a quick pace of snapping back and forth that could indicate an issue.

Without knowing where Corky lives and how the elephant is cared for it is difficult to draw a conclusion though.

Back in the late 80s and early 90s there was a huge push for elephants living in zoos to be "left alone" by staff and to let them be elephants vs doing tricks as some have stated in this thread. Some of the circus behaviors were removed which was a positive thing. Coupled with this, many zoos switched from free contact (having no protective barrier between the keeper and the animal) to protected contact (having one).

For the most part people thought it was a good thing however the animals' mental and physical health suffered because they were not being given something to do by their keepers. Eventually zoos pulled back to medium ground and realized that enrichment (for any species) is vital for long term health. The only problem was many keepers with the experience, knowledge, and dedication walked away from that career and the animals suffered.

Zoos have also realized that in certain health situations the animal would not respond to voice commands alone or food so what then?

Finally a few pages back it was shown one orca killing another. In a free contact setting it would be up to the staff to stop the fighting if they had the skill set and relationship with those animals to do so.

Unfortunately, this is way beyond what the original SW topic was but we could easily replace orcas with many other highly intelligent species and the concerns would be the same.

Sorry to go off on a tangent but regardless of which side of the fence you are on, I think most would agree that each one wants the animals to be well-cared for but each person's definition of that is different.

ReeferKimberly
08/19/2014, 11:32 AM
Sorry to go off on a tangent but regardless of which side of the fence you are on, I think most would agree that each one wants the animals to be well-cared for but each person's definition of that is different.

Agreed :)

(I meant Corky the orca who swims upside down, I am not familiar with Corky the elephant)

Tangents appreciated, these things should be talked about and I appreciate your thoughts.

billsreef
08/19/2014, 11:34 AM
Sure, I see what you are saying...

But I'm sure the giant squid researchers weren't so inspired because of the giant squid they saw doing silly pet tricks at the zoo ;)

They usually started out with exposure to the more common smaller species ;)

FYI, most marine biologists I know started their interest due to direct contact with marine life and the marine environment in some form ;)

mandarin_goby
08/19/2014, 11:52 AM
Well, I'm going to go out on a limb, but wouldn't most marine biologists prefer observing animals in their natural habitat? Behaviors in captivity don't necessarily correlate with behaviors in the wild. Serious question!

KafudaFish
08/19/2014, 12:20 PM
Agreed :)

(I meant Corky the orca who swims upside down, I am not familiar with Corky the elephant)

Tangents appreciated, these things should be talked about and I appreciate your thoughts.

Opps and thank you for your desire to improve these situations.

billsreef
08/19/2014, 01:36 PM
Well, I'm going to go out on a limb, but wouldn't most marine biologists prefer observing animals in their natural habitat? Behaviors in captivity don't necessarily correlate with behaviors in the wild. Serious question!

We always prefer being out in the field...sometimes just because we like being out of lab/office :D

In all seriousness, some work can only be done via field observation, and some requires the sorts of controls that can only be done via well designed lab research. I've made a career involving both :)

In fact I'm currently involved in a small project setting up several displays in the building for sake putting some typical S. Fl marine environments on display...primarily targeting providing some educational value to non marine science majors that wander our hallways. It's surprising how many people on the edge of the water are clueless about what is at their feet. First display I'm working on is a mangrove habitat...just got back from digging some mangrove mud for it...now I'm all hot, sweaty and smelling like marsh mud :D

Luiz Rocha
08/19/2014, 01:49 PM
FYI, most marine biologists I know started their interest due to direct contact with marine life and the marine environment in some form ;)

That's definitely what happened to me, and very early (when I was 9 years old). And it happened because of a fish tank that I saw in an aquarium shop and because of Cousteau's movies and other documentaries.

But I always thought there was something very wrong with having animals perform in very small and artificial environments (orcas/dolphis in pools or lions/tigers in circus stages).

mandarin_goby
08/19/2014, 02:42 PM
I wish I had the option of being in the field - I'm a strictly at-the-lab-bench kind of scientist (aka lab rat).

Thank you for the response, Billsreef!

Now, I *get* science and research (but I still find research on captive whales to be controversial), but the entertainment/monetary aspect of Seaworld really bothers me. Also, can we really provide an orca or whale shark with the proper care/environment? I don't think we can - is it ethical to keep such large animals with such a wide range in the wild in captivity? Don't orcas live in pods in the wild? We can't recreate that social structure in captivity. Didn't the Georgia Aquarium have issues with their beluga whales and whale sharks becoming sick and dying not too long ago?

Ztrain
08/19/2014, 02:52 PM
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/C0vf3o0vOi4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Humans do the same behavior what's the issue? Perhaps they are just mimicking us and trying to be cool. Okay I almost got that typed with a straight face.

Zoodiver
08/19/2014, 04:40 PM
A good read about wild orcas still dying and no of the trendy social network groups are doing anything to help or notify people. Has more links that prove Blackfish is a money making scam (kind of like they claim SW is).

http://awesomeocean.com/2014/08/19/tweet-blackfish-orcas-dying/

mandarin_goby
08/19/2014, 04:52 PM
^^I don't understand how Blackfish = people not caring about the plight of killer whales in the wild. I honestly don't see the connection. Why does buying into the message Blackfish tells mean we don't care about whales in the wild? It's not that black and white; A doesn't cause B, they're not mutually exclusive. Yes, rehab the whales and then set them free - I get that. But stop there. No breeding, no shows, no feeding the money-making machine.

Also, don't whales beach themselves because of health issues? Maybe the one whale that beached himself twice was past the point of hope? You implore people to not let emotions get in the way, but the way that story is presented was to garner emotions. They conveniently neglected to add what a necropsy may have showed...

Fishfirst
08/19/2014, 04:53 PM
I wish I had the option of being in the field - I'm a strictly at-the-lab-bench kind of scientist (aka lab rat).

Thank you for the response, Billsreef!

Now, I *get* science and research (but I still find research on captive whales to be controversial), but the entertainment/monetary aspect of Seaworld really bothers me. Also, can we really provide an orca or whale shark with the proper care/environment? I don't think we can - is it ethical to keep such large animals with such a wide range in the wild in captivity? Don't orcas live in pods in the wild? We can't recreate that social structure in captivity. Didn't the Georgia Aquarium have issues with their beluga whales and whale sharks becoming sick and dying not too long ago?

Yes they lost their first two Whale Sharks, but there is always a learning curve when you get new species. The new ones are doing much better.

mandarin_goby
08/19/2014, 04:59 PM
Well, sad for those 2 whale shark guinea pigs then :/ what a shame. They died to contribute to the learning curve...will we ever learn? We can't mold some animals to thrive in an environment that suits *us.* why can't some see that that's just not right?

billsreef
08/19/2014, 05:35 PM
I wish I had the option of being in the field - I'm a strictly at-the-lab-bench kind of scientist (aka lab rat).

Thank you for the response, Billsreef!

Your welcome :beer: Now you just need to find a way to translate your research to have field time needs ;) These days most of my limited field time is running a boat for marine science classes, and occasionally helping out grad students in the field on my own time just because I like getting out there.

Now, I *get* science and research (but I still find research on captive whales to be controversial), but the entertainment/monetary aspect of Seaworld really bothers me.

There is a fair amount learned about physiology of animals in captivity that can't be readily accomplished in the field. Particularly when it comes to following a particular animal over a long timeline. While we can certainly tag wild animals with radio/satellite tags and acoustic transponders to trace movement, trying to recapture and draw blood samples, etc. is quite difficult. Though I do understand being bothered by the entertainment/business end of this.

Didn't the Georgia Aquarium have issues with their beluga whales and whale sharks becoming sick and dying not too long ago?

I don't know the story on the beluga's, but do know the story of the Whale Sharks, and have met the Vet in charge of them on several occasions...at least once over beer and BBQ in the backyard of former boss that we both worked had worked with.

The tank the Whale Sharks were in had a parasite outbreak (some kind of fluke or leach IIRC), the treatment of choice was Trichlorofon (used to sold as Clout to the aquarium trade). While well tolerated by bony fish, it proved problematic for the Whale Sharks :( I can also tell you the Vet at Georgia Aquarium is quite involved in Whale Shark research, including field studies that he has the Aquarium supporting.

To switch gears for a moment, and going back to the difference between just merely learning about something and seeing it in real life...

One of the classes I take out on our research vessel is "Intro to Marine Biology". It's a biology class aimed at non marine bio majors. In every class there are several students that have grown up going out on boats in Biscayne Bay with family and friends, and are clueless and absolutely amazed at the life I show them and they never really existed right at their feet. Occasionally one of them becomes a marine bio major as a result of that class, especially the labs that got them out in the field.

mandarin_goby
08/19/2014, 05:56 PM
One of the classes I take out on our research vessel is "Intro to Marine Biology". It's a biology class aimed at non marine bio majors. In every class there are several students that have grown up going out on boats in Biscayne Bay with family and friends, and are clueless and absolutely amazed at the life I show them and they never really existed right at their feet. Occasionally one of them becomes a marine bio major as a result of that class, especially the labs that got them out in the field.

I would be all over a class that shows you critters in their natural habitat. I can definitely see how that would inspire someone.

Now, I was inspired to go into biology after reading The Hot Zone, about the Ebola outbreak in Reston, Va. I definitely don't need to see that nasty virus up close in order to respect it or want to learn more!

Fishfirst
08/19/2014, 06:37 PM
Cancer/virus research has many guinea pigs associated with it... I guess I don't see the difference. An animal getting tortured for medical research is no better than an animal in captivity to inspire people to care about them. Moral high road would mean that your cancer research probably need to end... but I rather not see that happen.

mandarin_goby
08/19/2014, 06:53 PM
Cancer/virus research has many guinea pigs associated with it... I guess I don't see the difference. An animal getting tortured for medical research is no better than an animal in captivity to inspire people to care about them. Moral high road would mean that your cancer research probably need to end... but I rather not see that happen.

As a scientist, I have very strong feelings about animals research, which I would rather not go into too much here - that belongs in a different forum. Let's just say that I do not partake in it personally, by choice. You can still do research using human cell culture and using human tissue samples (and I have) - not all research is based on animal models. That's all I have to say about that - that being said, it is a necessary evil. Again, it's very controversial. More attention is focused on monkeys and beagles are being set free from research facilities - again, more awareness. A sign of the times. And yes, again, ethics plays a huge role in animal research - there are whole committees dedicated to it. In science, you can use animals or not. There are alternatives.

We can't get away from animal testing - do you own a cat or a dog? Guess how their vaccines and flea/tick meds were tested.

Just saying something along the lines of: "oh those 2 HUGE whale sharks? Eh, just part of the learning curve" seems kind of flippant :/

Fishfirst
08/19/2014, 07:42 PM
It is the nature of things and something that can't be avoided whether its a Mandarin dragonet or a Whale Shark. But I do believe that the more we learn about these animals the better and having whale sharks in captivity does give us a rare insight to their intelligence their life cycle and much much more. Writing the book so to speak is always difficult... I'm not completely against animal testing nor animals in captivity. I just think it is highly hypocritical when your field is much worse off as far as ethics are concerned than Sea World. What's done is done, advances come out of failure and success...

Also on the front of the whales doing tricks is wrong... this is utterly ridiculous... These behaviors are very important to their care. You think that sticking out their tongue doesn't have a purpose? It does.

mandarin_goby
08/19/2014, 08:13 PM
People's *lives* have been saved thru animal-based/non animal-based research, through works done in "my field" and you think that is *worse* than holding animals in captivity that are known not to thrive for our *enjoyment*? And science is screwed up, moreso than SeaWorld's views? Did I really read that right? You have *no* idea what goes on in the science field, that much I do know. Thank *us* the next time you are successfully treated for something that ails you (your doctor didn't conduct the tests for efficacy, I assure you), the next time a loved one is cured of a nasty disease that would otherwise have run rampant, if not for research done by people in "my field."

How exactly does one research a whale shark/orca's intelligence as they cruise around listlessly on a pool? Sure, we can observe the life cycle of these animals as we artificially stimulate it. I mean, we are humans, we must play god in everything we do, because we can. I'm also willing to bet that whales don't seek humans out for fun in the wild, hence, making them do tricks and forcing human interaction seems more messed up than scientific research.

Some people claim to want to learn about animals so that means some animals must be contained so we can gawk at them on our terms, at our convenience??? What's next, do we need a blue whale in captivity so that we can understand them better, knowing full well there's no way it would thrive?

Yes, you're right. We must have animals in captivity, and yes, science is SO screwed up...I honestly just sit at a bench and twiddle my thumbs all day, really, because it's fun.

Did I really, seriously read that science is more twisted than SeaWorld? What is this world coming to, really? You are alive because of research...what has SeaWorld done for you? Take money from your pocket? Inspire you to better the lives of the animals kept there? Make you want to pursue marine biology as a career? No? Then it was just to see orcas swim in circles for your entertainment.

Fishfirst
08/19/2014, 09:03 PM
I feel both are necessary, and they both have a purpose. You don't think that your precious little drug/research company doesn't work for profit? That they don't have an end goal of becoming rich beyond their wildest dreams? I definitely know what goes on in the scientific community as I am apart of it, both its good parts and its bad. And I DON'T MIND that they do turn a profit because THAT is how the world works.

mandarin_goby
08/19/2014, 09:05 PM
Do you know that most academic institutions aren't for profit, research-wise? Maybe some research is actually done to benefit the human race? Sure, some researchers get grants, big ones. Do you think it is a researcher's dream in academia to make millions? Not in a million years. They then picked the wrong field to go into.

I could be making a lot more $$$ if I worked for big pharma, but I choose not to. I work for a university. Never, ever assume.

Fishfirst
08/19/2014, 09:07 PM
Universities are for profit, just in a different way ;)

mandarin_goby
08/19/2014, 09:10 PM
Not in the lining-my-pockets while ethics go out the window kind of way. And trust me, I'm not seeing that windfall. Athletes get more respect than scientists at a university. New stadiums are more important than new research buildings, don't get me started. Research grant money is very highly regulated. My boss doesn't exactly live in a mansion despite the millions they get to do research. It goes towards supplies, salaries, etc etc.

SeaWorld is all about the bottom line. Above all, it's about the money. Don't be fooled. And, to be honest, they could thank Blackfish - it inspired them to *try* to make things better, but maybe it's too little, too late. Time to evolve or die.

Fishfirst
08/19/2014, 09:13 PM
Not buying it... sorry... it is hypocritical to not fix your own field's ethics before dabbling in others business.

mandarin_goby
08/19/2014, 09:15 PM
Hey, don't make me your punching bag for all scientists. Go picket outside your nearest university or research park. Hilarious. Yes, I will go and fix things right now, be right back.

So, I can't have interests outside of science? Are you really serious? I have a right to this debate as anyone. Who are you to judge who can have an opinion and who can't? Care to post what you do exactly so I can pick it apart? Oh wait, I'm kind of above that because it's simply not necessary.

Fishfirst
08/19/2014, 09:42 PM
No malice intended just pointing out the obvious.

mandarin_goby
08/19/2014, 09:52 PM
The obvious? That you can comment but I can't? Why exactly? Because of my profession?

Hey, uh, no offense but, your profession is screwed up so you really should keep your opinions to yourself.

No offense taken at all, I just spent x number of years beyond an undergrad degree pursuing an education so that I could secure such a lucrative (I wish you had an idea how much a researcher really makes), dirty career working alongside animal abusers. This is great. But yet, SeaWorld is a great, grand place...happy orcas in happy pools.

This thread has officially jumped the shark, so to speak.

Fishfirst
08/19/2014, 10:09 PM
Your emotions have so much to do with this argument it really isn't worth my time.

mandarin_goby
08/19/2014, 10:10 PM
Yes, and you are the epitome of reasonable :) You bash me and I will defend myself. Such is life, as you say.

Fishfirst
08/19/2014, 10:14 PM
Have you ever kept an orca? Until then, I would just stay out of it. Kind of like how I stay out of the forums against animal testing... I'm not taking any thunder from people that do more good than bad.

mandarin_goby
08/19/2014, 10:16 PM
You must have an orca then, after all, you're commenting on their care. I'm the hypocrite?

Fishfirst
08/19/2014, 10:17 PM
Actually if you read my first post, I am not. I actually stated that I have mixed feelings. Again, the benefits outweigh the bad.