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mpderksen
07/29/2014, 09:28 PM
The closest thing I had to success was pulling rocks and pouring H2O2 on them. But I only did one side of the tank. Now, it's back as if I never did anything. I've been adding AglaeFix Marine and used probably 6 doses so far. The stuff looked a little grey at the tips for a bit, but now it's growing faster than ever.
Somehow I must be feeding it, even though I've cut my lights WAY back and I've reduced my bio load, and therefore my feeding.
Below are a few examples. Should I just do a FULL post of the tank parameters and how I maintain it to see if I'm missing something?
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/30/gyna7a2u.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/30/e5upuqaz.jpg

skimjim
07/29/2014, 09:57 PM
Do you have a yellow tang?

If I didn't have mine, i'd hate to see how much GHA i would have. my yellow spends 90% of its time picking and grazing on my LR.

Titans_Reef
07/29/2014, 10:08 PM
I have a spotted foxface and a yellow tang which I put some frags in that had GHA that I got from a guy which they cleaned it up before it spread. My electric blue hermit also cleaned up a frag I placed in the fuge. Try a lawnmower blenny and see if that helps if you cant put a foxface or a tang in there. Whats your water parameters look like?

Xavibear
07/30/2014, 08:18 AM
Try carbon dosing.

DavidinGA
07/30/2014, 08:20 AM
Doesn't running Kent Tech-M til your levels are 1600+ knock it out?

wildman926
07/30/2014, 08:58 AM
I am surprised that you are at this point and after 6 doses of AlgaeFix Marine. I personally, as well as others, have used that product with great success.

You MUST have phosphate and nitrate retention in your rocks and sand at an extreme level, releasing and feeding the algae. What are you using to export nitrates and phosphates?

DavidinGA
07/30/2014, 09:00 AM
Ya what brand/type of rock do you have? Hope you don't have pukani rock....

ViktorVaughn
07/30/2014, 09:20 AM
The API algae fix did nothing for my algae problem either, I made it to 12 doses before I gave up. The sea hare I bought took care of all my algae that I was fighting for months in less than 2 weeks. I started GFO at the time of the sea hares introduction as well. Sea hare was returned to the store and my algae has yet to come back 3+ months later.

whosurcaddie
07/30/2014, 10:24 AM
Like Xavibear said carbon dose but I would also add a GFO reactor at the same time.

Algae fix marine is not a cure unless you solve the nutrient problem.

DavidinGA
07/30/2014, 10:46 AM
Add a big algae scrubber. That will knock it out for certain after a few weeks.

mpderksen
07/31/2014, 07:55 AM
Thanks everyone. I guess I should give background so we can dial in on the issue.
The tank and rock was given to me in exchange for my BC29. It's a 75. The tank had been very poorly maintained and was pretty much a culupera garden when I got it. I let the rock sit in a carbon in the garage for about a year before I built the tank.
I have a BRS dual reactor for GFO and carbon. I have dosing pumps for B-Ionic 2-part. In the sump I do run a sock and a Reef Octopus skimmer. There is no light or macro algae in there because my Cheato kept just dying off. Now it's just rocks. I run a chiller to stay at 77F.
Up top, I have a Rapid LED setup running at 55% about 8 inches above the water line. Originally I was at 85% and my PAR was way too high without realizing it. My RO/DI has a TDS meter that still reads 0 when I'm making water. I do a 10 gal water change each weekend, and use Reef Crystals to a SG of 1.024, tested with a refractometer.
My parameters are:
PO4, <0.05 ppm wig a HANNA (I change the GFO when it reaches this)
NH3-NO2 all not detected (lame API test kit)
Mg around 1200 (Red Sea test)
Ca, 460
Alk, 10

I've tried 2 sea hares (both died quickly, like 2 weeks, even though they are really making progress until they died).
I've lost 2 one-spot foxface, neither seemed interested in my algae.
I've stopped buying any livestock until I get this stable, since it's not fair to the fish.

I used H2O2 on half the rocks, and it worked wonders, but even using AlgaeFix Marine, it's come back.
I've got the lights down as low as I dare for coral health. So that leave other nutrients. I have a pretty small bio-load, and don't feed all that much.
I'm very tempted to pull all the coral, trash the rocks, and replace it with new LR. I can hold the coral in the frag tank for a few weeks. It's the only unknown from the original tank. But that's a $400 experiment that may end up with no success.
Vodka dosing, algae scrubber or turbo snails are all reasonable. But I'd feel a lot better if I could figure out why it's growing in the first place.

mpderksen
07/31/2014, 07:57 AM
PO4 <0.05 HANNA checker. I change the GFO once it rises to 0.05.
No nitrogen products detected.
Mg 1200
Alk 10
Ca 460

anbosu
07/31/2014, 08:07 AM
If the tank was really poorly maintained there is probably a lot of phosphate bound up in the live rock.

You have a few options as I see it.

Keep the rock in the tank, and drip lanthanum chloride (there is a thread with instructions). This will work, but if you have a big issue it may take some time.

Keep the rock in the tank and try the Kent Tech M method.

Switch out the live rock for new live rock and continue to use GFO.

All of this is assuming you're using RO/DI water.

mpderksen
07/31/2014, 08:21 PM
So we are assuming it's the rock at this point? The tank has been up a year, and while it was neglected, and the previous owner used tap water in in for a few YEARS, I would think it would have leeched out by now.
I'm not saying anyone is wrong, just verifying before I dive in. I do have some B-Ionic Mg. Should I start by using that to get the Mg to 1600 and hold it there? I'm not clear why this would help.

anbosu
08/01/2014, 08:44 AM
Kent Tech M is the only magnesium supplement I've heard that kills hair algae.

Rocks can leach phosphate for a very long time.

Portsie
08/01/2014, 08:49 AM
I was given my first tank from my father in law. He had used tap water for three or four years. I battled hair algae for almost a year after I got it. There was a lot of phosphate bound up in the rocks. I started aggressively running and changing gfo, and eventually got all the phosphate out. It was a slow process, but eventually it paid off.

Tech M only works on bryopsis, so if you're certain it's HA that you have I wouldn't bother with it.

I did have great success with turbo snails eating the HA once I had phosphates in check.

wildman926
08/01/2014, 09:15 AM
You will need something to remove the nitrates/phosphates, and whatever else that may be in your rocks. An ATS is a good way to do that, along with your skimmer. It takes a little time, so be patient. Here is one of mine deployed, purchased from a fellow RC'r -

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s86/wildman926/Aquariums/Algae%20Turf%20Scrubbers/38A0A523-732E-475F-838B-7338960B1A18_zps6az4mf62.jpg


As I stated before, I used AlgaeFix, and worked like a charm. HERE (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1595003) is thread here on RC about it. Your liverock must be very saturated with nitrates and phosphates to not work.

slief
08/01/2014, 09:42 AM
Kent Tech M is the only magnesium supplement I've heard that kills hair algae.

Rocks can leach phosphate for a very long time.

Kent Tech M is used for Bryopsis not GHA.

mpderksen
08/01/2014, 07:26 PM
Could I put some of the rock in my QT and test PO4 etc after a few weeks to see if it's leeching? I'm willing to buy all new rock, but not until I'm sure the stuff I have is the problem. I don't feed much, I lowered the lights, I change water regularly and I'm running a GFO/Carbon reactor.

Crush Coral
08/01/2014, 07:58 PM
Hi, I'm Russ and I have HA too. I have doing this same battle for about 3 years now. I am convinced that the most logical way to battle the crap is with a ATS. I will be installing a sump soon and will incorporate an ATS. I will let the ATS remove the phosphates as it leaches out of the rock till it is gone. Question for others who have used this method to fight HA - Does the ATS ever slow in growing HA in it to indicate that you have removed all the phosphates from your rock and you could removed the ATS?

mpderksen
08/02/2014, 08:16 AM
And the ats fits where? Lol

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/02/ja3urumy.jpg

DavidinGA
08/02/2014, 05:28 PM
And the ats fits where? Lol

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/02/ja3urumy.jpg
Based on the newer feeding guide sizing for a screen you probably only need a 6x6 Sq in screen and you could definitely make it fit imo. You have room for that light so you have room for a screen to shine it on...

One tiny screen, a tiny pump, some pvc and a CFL light = no more nuisance algae (or need to run a skimmer or gfo for that matter)

mpderksen
08/03/2014, 06:35 PM
If I stuck all the rock from my sump in a 20 gal tank, covered it to keep the light out, and just used a small pump for circulation, and the rocks were leeching PO4, would it be detectable by my HANNA checker after a month of so?

DavidinGA
08/03/2014, 06:46 PM
If I stuck all the rock from my sump in a 20 gal tank, covered it to keep the light out, and just used a small pump for circulation, and the rocks were leeching PO4, would it be detectable by my HANNA checker after a month of so?
You'd see a rise in PO4 within days...

1fishkeeper
08/03/2014, 07:00 PM
I would put one or two rocks out of your tank in a bucket with new mixed water. Let them sit over night and test. If you have any P04 leaching from your rocks you will know for sure after that. If that is the case I would maybe do a acid dip and then cook the rocks in a Rubbermaid trash can for about a month or two.

mpderksen
08/03/2014, 07:42 PM
Stay tuned. Setting it up now. I'll report back when I have a solid result.

animalkingdom
08/03/2014, 08:55 PM
I had an algae that looked just like that once. It went away when I took the rock out and put it in bucket with fresh salt water. I have no idea why, but I fought it for months in a tank, with aggressive measures like GFO and the like. Then I moved and put all my rock in a temporary storage bucket with a light and new water. within a few days it was gone. Still I dont know why.

mpderksen
08/07/2014, 06:46 PM
HANNA checker reads 0.00 after 72 hours. I'll let it sit for a while.
My
Ights are low enough that my Zoa are all getting stretched out. Still adding AlgaeFix Marine every 3 days. I turn off the GFO/carbon reactors and skimmer for the first 24 hours. The only rock that looks good is the one I took put an put hydrogen peroxide on.
Next tips?

Michael

expofrog
08/08/2014, 06:35 AM
I suddenly got a large GHA outbreak overnight last week, done large water change and turned lights off for three days, nothing really changed, so visited local fish store bought and 2 large turbo snails and lawn mower blenny, snails tore it up!!!!!! blenny just sits there chilling.

mpderksen
08/08/2014, 08:32 AM
Let me just double check my AlgaeFix protocol before I add bulldozers.... I mean Turbos...
I have a 75g with sump. Not sure of the total system volume from the displacement of rocks etc, so I usually just guess at 80. I have been adding a full cap of AlgaeFix Marine, which I think is 10ml. I turn off the reactor and skimmer for 24 hours. Then I turn them back on the next night, and let everything go for 2 more days, and repeat. I've been adding the 10ml every 3 days for over a month with zero change.
Am I missing something?

The rock I blasted with H2O2 is so clean it's amazing, but that's a temporary fix unless I get ALL of it in the entire system. And some rocks can't even be removed.

I still have the rocks from the sump in 5 gal of water, so I'll test to see if they are leeching.

Could it be the LED spectrum? All my coral looked really great until I turned it down. Now everything looks starved, yet the GHA still grows like crazy. I have the blue at 75% and the white at 65% since I like the way that looks. But if blue feeds GHA, and white feeds coral, then I'm doing it wrong....

My bio-load is very light at this point due to some losses. I'm not adding anything until I get this figured out.

Pife
08/08/2014, 04:58 PM
I would look into lanthum cloride dosing into a filter soak to lower po4s. There are some great articles out on how it works. It really helped suck the po4s out of my rock and is a ton cheaper than all the time and money spent on GFO. IMHO

mpderksen
08/08/2014, 08:19 PM
Great suggestion. But before I go that route, I am ASSUMING this stuff is GHA. It grows in puffy green balls a bit smaller than golf balls. It really doesn't get long and stringy. If I'm wrong, and it's not really GHA, but some other evil invader, does that change anything? Death by H2O2 works, but little else has an effect.
Today I picked up 6 turbos. I will also start raising the Mg to 1600 over the next week.
The fact that the PO4 is still 0.00ppm in the 5 gal with my sump rocks makes me think the excess phosphate isn't coming from there. So maybe I feed more than I thought?
Also, the lights are low enough that my softies that are lower in the tank are suffering. So I need to raise it back or risk some losses.

mpderksen
08/24/2014, 07:18 PM
3 week update. I just tested the water with the rocks from the sump. 5 gallons of new water and it just covers the rocks. The PO4 measures 0.15 on the HANNA checker.
I assume that if there was no PO4 in the rocks, it would remain at 0.00. Is a rise of this much enough that we can conclude that the GHA is being fed by the 60 lbs of rock in the DT and they are the primary source of the problem?

vitodog
08/25/2014, 05:52 AM
If the tank was really poorly maintained there is probably a lot of phosphate bound up in the live rock.

You have a few options as I see it.

Keep the rock in the tank, and drip lanthanum chloride (there is a thread with instructions). This will work, but if you have a big issue it may take some time.

Keep the rock in the tank and try the Kent Tech M method.

Switch out the live rock for new live rock and continue to use GFO.

All of this is assuming you're using RO/DI water.

I would try anbosu's third option. Also, how deep is your sand bed? If it is 1" to 2", I would remove all but about 1/2". Its hard to tell from your photos but if your aquascape is too condensed (not open enough), your scape could be harboring excess nutrients. I know this (anbosu's 3rd option) sounds a little drastic, but if everything else has failed to rid your tank of this algae, a new, more open aquascape and less sand might be the answer in the long run. Good luck.

mpderksen
08/25/2014, 09:44 AM
So you think that amount of rise in PO4 IS significant? Yes, my sandbed is deeper than it probably should be. I could pull a lot of it, rinse and store it I guess. But with the tank only a year old, could it really be that built up already?

Rather than risk a cycle, should I pull about half the rock, wait a few weeks, then do the other side? I dig the idea of a new rockscape, but moving all the corals seems like a full weekend if I do it all at once. Time to stock up on super glue and water weld.

wildman926
08/25/2014, 11:01 AM
It grows in puffy green balls a bit smaller than golf balls. It really doesn't get long and stringy. If I'm wrong, and it's not really GHA, but some other evil invader, does that change anything? Death by H2O2 works, but little else has an effect.

That is not GHA. Sounds more like bryopsis. That is why AlgaeFix is not working for you. Can you provide a pic to confirm?

vitodog
08/25/2014, 01:30 PM
So you think that amount of rise in PO4 IS significant? Yes, my sandbed is deeper than it probably should be. I could pull a lot of it, rinse and store it I guess. But with the tank only a year old, could it really be that built up already?

Rather than risk a cycle, should I pull about half the rock, wait a few weeks, then do the other side? I dig the idea of a new rockscape, but moving all the corals seems like a full weekend if I do it all at once. Time to stock up on super glue and water weld.

Since you do have algae, then I would say your real Po4 level is probably too high. I replaced approximately 95% of my live rock with new (cured) live rock. I tested every few days for ammonia for 3 weeks and did not experience a cycle. I did however remove all livestock to a temporary holding tank (LFS) for the 3 weeks. Also, the fact that I left approximately 1/2" of sand in the tank, was probably the reason for no cycle. My tank was not quite a year old when I started to see my No3 and Po4 levels begin to rise. A good friend came by to look at my tank when I told him about the No3 and Po4 levels and he suggested that my aquascape was too tight (not allowing enough flow through) and I had too much sand. To be honest, I was not happy with my aquascape anyway and did not want to wait for algae to appear. I kind of enjoyed doing the new scape with help from my friend. Almost immediately, No3 and Po4 levels began to lower and corals began to grow and color up. My tank has never looked this good. For some reason this site won't allow me to post pics. I keep getting error messages. Someday I'll figure it out (posting pictures). I would also like to say that your rocks/aquascape or amount of sand may not be your problem/issue. Its just my suggestion, its what I did and it worked for me. Again, good luck.

Ms.lachelle
08/25/2014, 02:24 PM
What is type is that bright green acropora?

crn005
08/25/2014, 07:18 PM
3 week update. I just tested the water with the rocks from the sump. 5 gallons of new water and it just covers the rocks. The PO4 measures 0.15 on the HANNA checker.
I assume that if there was no PO4 in the rocks, it would remain at 0.00. Is a rise of this much enough that we can conclude that the GHA is being fed by the 60 lbs of rock in the DT and they are the primary source of the problem?

As someone that has been in your place before, the rocks are your problem (assuming it's GHA). 0.15 is too much coming off of the rocks. LaCl is your best weapon you have in this battle. There's no sense in scrapping the rocks though. Just take them out in shifts and soak them until you get 0.00 readings from your Hanna. If not, then you will have a long battle with GHA. There are no shortcuts here. Even an ATS won't help much because the PO4 is leeching out of the rock and going directly to the algae. The PO4 is being eaten up before it gets into your water column, and before it can make it's way to any other type of filtration. You could maybe do half of your rocks at a time, depending on how much livestock you have. If you have a heavy bio load then you should go slower to keep enough nitrifying bacteria in the system. Also, some emerald crabs would be a nice investment. Eventually, you'll have to feed them as well because they do such a good job at clean up. I've got one in my sump now that I'd give to you if you lived closer. He's a monster when it comes to GHA!

mpderksen
08/25/2014, 08:19 PM
Lol, 3 emeralds, no progress.... Not even with 5 huge turbos.
Let's start over:
This is what it looks like
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/26/za4e8use.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/26/duguqyda.jpg
Sorry that is so dark.
I have a very light bio-load now. Especially since the Volitan has grown to the point that the other livestock is a snack soon. So 5 medium-small fish in a 75g.
I have a bucket of mag crystals so I could raise the Mg levels, but that's risky with snails, which I have probably a hundred.

Not sure if the strategy changes if it's Bryopsis or GHA, but my plan is to remove most of the sand, massive water change and put ALL the frags in my QT, assuming they will fit...
Then dump all the rock and replace with new 2/3 dry, 1/3 live with a far more open scape. I get flow from an MP10 and a WP25.

Reasonable plan?

Oh, and I'm not sure what type of Acro it is. But he has a mild infection which I will hit with H2O2 when I pull it.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/26/5yvuqyzu.jpg

DavidinGA
08/26/2014, 07:01 PM
Algae scrubber?

crn005
08/26/2014, 09:52 PM
Eh it kind of looks like GHA to me, but I don't have a whole lot of personal experience with Bryopsis. I've just studied it.

Your Emerald Crabs won't touch it?! You definitely need some of the guys that I have! Anyway, I'd hold out to get a second opinion about the species of algae. If it's GHA, then they method I told you earlier is a sure-fire solution. It's pretty standard procedure if you want to get the PO4 out of the rock.

mpderksen
08/26/2014, 11:14 PM
Eh it kind of looks like GHA to me, but I don't have a whole lot of personal experience with Bryopsis. I've just studied it.

Your Emerald Crabs won't touch it?! You definitely need some of the guys that I have! Anyway, I'd hold out to get a second opinion about the species of algae. If it's GHA, then they method I told you earlier is a sure-fire solution. It's pretty standard procedure if you want to get the PO4 out of the rock.

Well no point in asking and then not follow,the suggestion, right?
I'll look up the LaCl method for how before I know it's done.

Another, possibly easier step (and free) might be to change the water that the sump rocks are in and see if it rises again, right? If, as suggested, the PO4 reading were from die off, then after a solid rinse and fresh water, if it rises again THEN I can assume it's leeching out?

pyithar
08/27/2014, 04:38 AM
Algae scrubber?

+1 + gfo.

crn005
08/27/2014, 05:41 PM
If, as suggested, the PO4 reading were from die off, then after a solid rinse and fresh water, if it rises again THEN I can assume it's leeching out?

Correct. If the rising PO4 is duplicated, then you know for sure that it is leeching out from the rocks. The PO4 is trying to reach equilibrium. That's why it is leaching out of the rocks. That's where fresh water, or the original water stripped of all phosphates via LaCl, comes in handy. It will pull the phosphates out of the rocks.

+1 + gfo.

This will work for short-term success. Once the issue is dealt with, one will have to be removed (assuming that the tank doesn't have a REALLY high bio-load). One of the main limiting factor of a scrubbers success is phosphates. They are consumed at a 1 to 16 ratio in comparison to nitrates. Unless there is an excessive amount of phosphates available, which is the case for this tank at the moment, the GFO will starve out the GHA on the screen of the scrubber. They compete against each other. If you can not provide the screen with the phosphates it needs to grow, then it won't perform. It's like trying to get rid of wood with a fire. You have to make sure you have enough wood to keep the fire going so that you can keep it available for future wood that you will want to get rid of. Did that make sense? I just thought of that analogy. It worked in my mind! :-)