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Marinemadeeasy
07/30/2014, 02:38 AM
I am looking at setting up a 500l system so 400l after rock etc. I am in the planning stage at the moment and am deciding between Triton and zeolit. Any one tried both ? Or one with good results. I am thinking of zeolit with only the core products only at this stage , will I still get the results seen on a video website? Has anyone used the triton method for a long time in a home aquarium of this size? Is it much different to the other 3 bottle methods out there? I am not bothered about " no water changes " but rather results particularly with sps corals.

Thanks

dave.m
07/30/2014, 02:46 AM
This is the 680l+ forum. You might get better response on the Chemistry forum where the Triton method has been discussed several times. So a Search.

Dave.M

Marinemadeeasy
07/30/2014, 03:06 AM
Thanks Dave new to Reef central as you can tell !

Nanook
07/31/2014, 12:05 PM
[welcome]

[moved]

bertoni
07/31/2014, 03:34 PM
The Triton system advertising seems suspicious to me. A supplement with over 100 trace elements can't possibly be matched to every tank's needs, for example. I'm sure some people will be successful with it. I don't know what the cost might be, but DIY 2-part is inexpensive, and likely can produce just as nice a tank.

The ZeoVit system can produce good results, too, but, again, there's lots of approaches that work.

Marinemadeeasy
08/01/2014, 02:20 AM
I have been keeping fish and simple corals for over 10 years and we moved house. My new lfs opened my eyes to the world of sps's and the next lesson I learned was how far from good my water I thought was good really is. They recommended triton as they use that but I am not convinced as there is a world of difference between a shop sale tank and my home tank. I researched and liked zeo method so before building my tank need to choose as this will influence my design if you were looking at one method that stands out in your experience what would you choose and do you mainly go for sps?


Thanks

Eyore
08/01/2014, 03:55 AM
a little complicated with 2 threads going

I assume your uk based?

triton is basically balling classic

balling classic is to take the left over na and cl from the dosing of sodium bicarbonate and calcium chloride through the balanced supplimentation of calcium and bicarbonate, by adding the rest of the ingredients needed to create seawater from this "brine"
it can be done for around 2 a kilo upwards depending on what salts you use. Triton is around 28 a kilo

There maybe some things "dosed" on top of this in a way that could be described as similar to balling lite- strontium, iodine, iron maybe

But one of the fundamentals is "control" through the icp testing, in order to adjust your chemistry with additives (the strontium additive works out at 2100 a kilo approx to the end user)
But there is nothing to stop me using this service or these adsatives myself (I think its fair to say I would not pay that for strontium chloride though)
again the system- allowing algae to supply aminos, nothing to stop that either!

The other questions are those of balance- I dont think any nacl free salt, or triton is perfect imo. And purity, which is claimed but not really ratified, especially as some impure salts have provided good icp results due to biological means consuming contaminant I think

You would water change with classic, as its your means of control instead of icp, it will work out cheaper v the icp alone. 10% per week is not needed with classic as there is little/no ionic imbalance, 5-10% a fortnight is good enough

nacl free are not all the same

Marinemadeeasy
08/01/2014, 03:53 PM
Thanks very helpful. With the classic method do you use nacl free salt for water changes or just dosing. Also I read somewhere over time your water deteriorates with this method is this anything you have experienced. Is the Red Sea abc products a form of balling lite ?

bertoni
08/01/2014, 03:57 PM
The salt-free salt (sorry, I couldn't resist :)) is dosed directly as a proportion of the calcium and carbonate dosing. The idea is that calcium chloride and sodium carbonate are dosed for calcium and alkalinity. The calcium and carbonate are consumed, leaving NaCl. The NaCl-free salt help restore the ionic balance. The same sort of thing can be done with a two-part or a three-part, or sometimes is done with 4-parts. There are lots of variations, but I haven't seen any reason to prefer one over the other other than cost and convenience.

Eyore
08/02/2014, 06:42 AM
lol yes salt free salt (it isnt salt free or certainly not chloride anyhow)

triton is 3 parts, classic is 3 parts, 3 part is err 3 parts

1 - sodium bicarbonate, use bicarb to suppliment, left over sodium
2- calcium chloride, use calcium to suppliment, left over is chloride

(providing the above is used in balance, left over is one unit of sodium and 1 chloride (nacl or salt)

so part 3 is to add the rest needed to create seawater

classic and triton are the same in this regard. By adding these balling salts, you increase salinity, to counteract this you remove aquarium water and allow your atu to replace. By doing this you are doing a slow water change. The rate to remove aquarium water is approx 2.16 to 1 ( I you dose 3x 100ml of each, you remove 216 ml )
the water change amount done only through this removal is small (something around 25% per year per dkh per day of supplementation of the top of my head)

for me your water deteriorates full stop with any method, kalkwasser and calcium reactor are also balanced, exclude the minor water change element of 3 parts inc classic triton, few and far between advocate zero water change with these- differance?

Randy Holmes-Farley
08/02/2014, 07:27 AM
FWIW, a good commercial two part system (e.g., B-ionic) puts all of those other things (potassium, iron, etc) into one or both of the two parts, eliminating the need for the other things besides sodium carbonate and calcium chloride. At least that is the stated claim. :)

Eyore
08/02/2014, 09:38 AM
additional

I missed a bit out, since the removal rate is tied to the sum of weight of salt left in, obviously differant strength solutions provide differant ratios

84g/l sodium bicarbonate
73.5g/l calcium chloride dehydrate
25g/l nacl free salt (ie tropic marin pro mineral)


randy

to be truthful I dont know what additives are available in the us, only Europe

a fully balanced 2 part?
I am guessing a sulphate is in with sodium bicarbonate/carbonate? but it may have to be less saturated?

Randy Holmes-Farley
08/02/2014, 09:58 AM
Sodium sulfate can be added to the alkalinity part. Potassium chloride can be added to either part. Strontium chloride can be added to the calcium part. Sodium bromide and fluoride can be added to either part. Etc.

I don't think the potency needs to change. :)

Eyore
08/02/2014, 02:20 PM
thanks randy

tbh I thought sodium sulphate may be problematic to get in if bicarb was near saturation

Randy Holmes-Farley
08/02/2014, 04:21 PM
The added sodium will potentially reduce the solubility of sodium carbonate somewhat, that is true. I haven't worked through how much that effect is. One could also use potassium sulfate for about a third of the total sulfate addition, if desired. :)

Eyore
08/03/2014, 06:02 AM
The added sodium will potentially reduce the solubility of sodium carbonate somewhat, that is true. I haven't worked through how much that effect is. One could also use potassium sulfate for about a third of the total sulfate addition, if desired. :)

going totally off topic mind

and tbh I am unsure on the saturation of sodium sulphate as it appears very temperature dependant

but could the effect be described as proportional?

lets say both have the same saturation (wiki has sodium sulphate at just under 5% at 0 c and 400% @ 100c)

lets say I need 1 part sodium sulphate to 4 sodium bicarbonate for balance (I should say I havent attempted to calculate this other than a guess in my head (while mrs shouting me to entertain daughter ) so I could be some way out

could I assume if saturation of salts are equal, in this scenerio I could remove 1/5 th of bicarb and replace with sodium sulphate? ? (assuming all combinations that be created from the anions and cations are not less in their saturation (not applicable in this scenerio)

or is there more to it

Azmanjim
08/03/2014, 10:55 AM
Can I just mention that I spoke to Triton, and the "102 element part" from the old information text, that has now been replaced, was actually a error between translation and writing the text. However, I'm not sure it is the most outrageous of marketing claims anyway! Especially when you can buy an additive specifically to make your blue corals bluer!! :hmm5:

Eyore
08/03/2014, 11:59 AM
Can I just mention that I spoke to Triton, and the "102 element part" from the old information text, that has now been replaced, was actually a error between translation and writing the text. However, I'm not sure it is the most outrageous of marketing claims anyway! Especially when you can buy an additive specifically to make your blue corals bluer!! :hmm5:

would you know, or would ehsan be willing to reveal-

what is the (in terms of its proportion of nsw) the lowest element INTENTIONALLY AND ACTIVELY APPLIED (ie no contaminent happy by product)
or an actual number of elements applied (again intentionally)

in order to get away from this 102

Azmanjim
08/03/2014, 02:15 PM
Oh I see so you mean the smallest amount of a single element that you are intentionally bringing into the tank without analysing and calculating from contaminates. I suppose it is a good question, but as you know, it's probably not the way it is done by anyone. I'll ask him though I guess!

Eyore
08/03/2014, 02:51 PM
yes bit of a contrived way of trying to assertain how much trace is in the triton.
not that imo beyond a certain point there is any benefit, but as you and I know its something that over on the uk forums is something occasionally cited in questions of superiority.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-11/rhf/index.php
discounting the 1 unstable element, I count 80 (though tbh if I counted again I bet I get 79 or 81!!)
1 pg/l is 0.000000001 mg/l

take gallium at 2 ng/l (0.000002 mg/l) is somewhere in the mid to late 20s in terms of its number of most abundance. (so no where near last)

it would require something around 1 mg of gacl3 to produce 10000 sets of triton.
which is roughly 2 grains of salts measuring 0.005 mm in each triton elementz

what can I say, my mind wanders!

Randy Holmes-Farley
08/03/2014, 03:00 PM
could I assume if saturation of salts are equal, in this scenerio I could remove 1/5 th of bicarb and replace with sodium sulphate? ? (assuming all combinations that be created from the anions and cations are not less in their saturation (not applicable in this scenerio)

or is there more to it

Sodium sulfate is far more soluble in water than is sodium carboante or sodium bicarbonate.

You won't be near the solubility limit of sodium sulfate, but adding any extra sodium into a saturated sodium carbonate solution reduces the solubility of the sodium carbonate.

That said, you really do not need very much sodium sulfate to reach the proper amount of sulfate, so I think this is a minor concern. :)

Azmanjim
08/03/2014, 03:54 PM
yes bit of a contrived way of trying to assertain how much trace is in the triton.
not that imo beyond a certain point there is any benefit, but as you and I know its something that over on the uk forums is something occasionally cited in questions of superiority.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-11/rhf/index.php
discounting the 1 unstable element, I count 80 (though tbh if I counted again I bet I get 79 or 81!!)
1 pg/l is 0.000000001 mg/l

take gallium at 2 ng/l (0.000002 mg/l) is somewhere in the mid to late 20s in terms of its number of most abundance. (so no where near last)

it would require something around 1 mg of gacl3 to produce 10000 sets of triton.
which is roughly 2 grains of salts measuring 0.005 mm in each triton elementz

what can I say, my mind wanders!

Wow that is a useful link! Iv never seen it before, but have given it a quick skim over. Before I read it in full. One thing that I wonder, and I'm hoping Randy will be able to answer because he wrote it. The table of contents seems to be made up from countless numbers of different scientific papers. Some elements seem to have more than one reference. And done of these references are from 40 odd years ago? I wondered if the accuracy, using as a guide specifically to make a seawater copy, was valid? Are those numbers to be trusted as perfectly accurate? I'm more trying to broaden my horizon of testing into picograms and wether it seems like something that might be lost on us as hobbyists?? If those numbers may have a discrepancy, and we worry about trace elements now, I think we may all be doomed!!

Randy Holmes-Farley
08/03/2014, 06:00 PM
I'm not sure I understand the question.

I believe that I got all of the element concentrations out of the book "Chemical Oceanography" by Frank Millero, dated 1996 (second edition). Many of the trace elements vary by depth, and by location, and that is why many have a range.